Database Users

How XDA might be able to distribute ROM's legally without starting from scratch.

Just a thought... is it possible that we (XDA) could get a member of the OHA such as HTC (knowing they have a wiki already and are majorly banking on Android) or another vendor to "open a space" on their official wiki for us to host our ROM's? Something that has a clause in the membership stating that we agree that they have the right to incorporate anything that they want out of the developed ROM's into their own build and we get access to legally redistribute the Google apps as we are "members" of the vendor's development/testing team. Knowing the spirit of this community and the truly open attitude it supports I am sure this would be something that you all would be happy to agree with. This would protect the developers that have spent so much time making Android amazing and give the vendor an amazing "think tank" in action. This would basically give them hundreds or thousands of developers at no cost all innovating for themselves but contributing to the success.
**If you are a vendor reading...Just think of the great publicity your company would get for this small investment in the Android community**
This should allow us to continue to use XDA for most of our needs but give us a "safe place" to continue innovation.

i have a feeling, htc would do the opposite and send out C&D letters to all the hero devs since they are distributing htc's close source apps such as all of its htc widgets and apps and sense ui itself.

NguyenHuu said:
i have a feeling, htc would do the opposite and send out C&D letters to all the hero devs since they are distributing htc's close source apps such as all of its htc widgets and apps and sense ui itself.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Probably so but if we sell the idea of them having so many developers working on the project for free they might just jump.

As stated by some one else (i forgot who) just because we are in the oha doesent mean we have access to the closed source we would have to license it out **if** they allow us

jjcd51590 said:
As stated by some one else (i forgot who) just because we are in the oha doesent mean we have access to the closed source we would have to license it out **if** they allow us
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I recall that statement but if we where "honorary members/developers" of/for the vendor then we could fall under the shadow of their ability to develop with/distribute Google's apps for "the vendor's" development testers (us).

lock or merge please~~~~

jaaronmoody said:
lock or merge please~~~~
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
With what???
This is a new idea that if gotten into the right inspired hands is another possibility that shouldn't get lost in the context of the other ideas.

XDA does not host any of the roms anyway. Whether normal activities can be conducted here is not really an issue. WinMo users have been doing the same thing here for a long time, and it is far from OS. The developers who choose to post links to their roms that contain questionable content do so at their own risk.
Also if you didn't notice, they already have us as a testing/development team. They can read this forum just like the rest of us. This is probably the reason most of what is done here is overlooked by folks like HTC. Even if we are a rather large user base, compared to the total # of Android users we are still only a few. They probably see it like "oh they got ahold of the Hero image huh? Too late to complain now. Just leave 'em be and let 'em hack at it a bit. Maybe they'll see or fix something we didn't" It's the better way to handle it PR wise.
Regardless of whether they mind what the end user is doing, I doubt HTC would be very willing to jump on board & slap google like that. We should probably leave that subject alone, and be glad they aren't complaining too.
Not that this isn't a good idea. I even suggested forming a group to join the OHA so we could attempt to license the apps, and be more in the loop. Just don't think HTC will go for it.

jaaronmoody said:
lock or merge please~~~~
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do you make any other kind of posts?
At the OP this would be good idea if we could pull it off

gurnted said:
XDA does not host any of the roms anyway. Whether normal activities can be conducted here is not really an issue. WinMo users have been doing the same thing here for a long time, and it is far from OS. The developers who choose to post links to their roms that contain questionable content do so at their own risk.
Also if you didn't notice, they already have us as a testing/development team. They can read this forum just like the rest of us. This is probably the reason most of what is done here is overlooked by folks like HTC. Even if we are a rather large user base, compared to the total # of Android users we are still only a few. They probably see it like "oh they got ahold of the Hero image huh? Too late to complain now. Just leave 'em be and let 'em hack at it a bit. Maybe they'll see or fix something we didn't" It's the better way to handle it PR wise.
Regardless of whether they mind what the end user is doing, I doubt HTC would be very willing to jump on board & slap google like that. We should probably leave that subject alone, and be glad they aren't complaining too.
Not that this isn't a good idea. I even suggested forming a group to join the OHA so we could attempt to license the apps, and be more in the loop. Just don't think HTC will go for it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have considered all of the facts you have listed which are valid points but if HTC wouldn't do it which I only used as an example some other vendor might do it. I just think that HTC is the preferred vendor as most of us use their equipment. This wouldn't be a slap to Google, it would be a way to endorse us as part of their development team.
By the way the OHA membership is a great idea. I think both options should be explored.

david1171 said:
Do you make any other kind of posts?
At the OP this would be good idea if we could pull it off
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Any idea which Senior Members had connections inside HTC?
I work for a carrier and the HTC rep I deal with isn't the best to go to with something like this.

Wrong forum, just because Dream Development is the most popular doesn't mean you post unrelated topics in it.

Gary13579 said:
Wrong forum, just because Dream Development is the most popular doesn't mean you post unrelated topics in it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So where should something like this be posted???
The idea I am trying to get out there doesn't fit into anything else as it is geared to creating an Android development resource.
Something that if it somehow works saves us all from doing what we all do already illegally.

Gary13579 said:
Wrong forum, just because Dream Development is the most popular doesn't mean you post unrelated topics in it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Never mind I guess. Looks like I got moved to the forum you saw fit.

Honestly, it shouldn't even be posted .
Not to be rude, but something like this would probably never work. Who all are licensing the software from Google? HTC, Samsung, maybe one or two more? These are all gigantic corporations who would laugh at it, imho.
We would have a better chance of contacting Google and asking how much they want for a license, then starting a donation drive.

Yeah I guess I could see someone stepping up to support this. All they would have to do is give permission to mod their roms. They could then look like the good guys who give their users a choice. I could see it now "Don't like our stock build of Android? Try one of these, or make your own." Now that would be the move to make for one of these companies who claim their phones are all about being "user customizable"
We would have a better chance of contacting Google and asking how much they want for a license, then starting a donation drive.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This stands a way better chance than the other option though.

Gary13579 said:
Honestly, it shouldn't even be posted .
Not to be rude, but something like this would probably never work. Who all are licensing the software from Google? HTC, Samsung, maybe one or two more? These are all gigantic corporations who would laugh at it, imho.
We would have a better chance of contacting Google and asking how much they want for a license, then starting a donation drive.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't disagree that we should gun for a license but like I said previously I work for a carrier and I believe they would go for something like this but I figure that a vendor would be a more likely target.

gurnted said:
Yeah I guess I could see someone stepping up to support this. All they would have to do is give permission to mod their roms. They could then look like the good guys who give their users a choice. I could see it now "Don't like our stock build of Android? Try one of these, or make your own." Now that would be the move to make for one of these companies who claim their phones are all about being "user customizable"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You nailed it on the head!!! Thank you for "getting it". Now the question is how to get this idea beyond XDA

gurnted said:
Yeah I guess I could see someone stepping up to support this. All they would have to do is give permission to mod their roms. They could then look like the good guys who give their users a choice. I could see it now "Don't like our stock build of Android? Try one of these, or make your own." Now that would be the move to make for one of these companies who claim their phones are all about being "user customizable"
This stands a way better chance than the other option though.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It'd require more effort from the vendor. They would have to be the ones distributing the ROMs to users, not us.
shagge68 said:
I don't disagree that we should gun for a license but like I said previously I work for a carrier and I believe they would go for something like this but I figure that a vendor would be a more likely target.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I doubt the carriers would have the license to distribute the software. Since it's essentially the vendor who installs the proprietary apps on them, I don't see the point to carriers having it.
And all of this is ignoring the fact that we don't even know the terms of the contract/license. It could very well be against the terms of either to do something like this.

A lot of carriers, and manufacturers have someone doing PR on most of the major social networks. Maybe you should try shooting some of them a line and see where it leads. Might at least get the message to someone who can get something like this worked out.

Help our Community - stop akaskriller - #NeverAgain Rd. 2 ** 1:30 AM EST

Very important:
Respect the rules of XDA.. post like you thought about it, not out of rage.
I do not want to promote/help this guy.
There is a fine line between this and simply informing people.
I think the latter is worth the risk.
OP was cleaned up since its getting so much attention now
5/17/11 synopsis:
The Android Community rallied. A lot was accomplished. But, we haven't succeeded.
Make Wednesday even better. Tweet, write articles and submit them to sites, post on facebook, just do something.
Site was/is down... but because he took it down for maintenance. Not his ISP shutting him down.
ARTICLES PUBLISHED FROM OUR EFFORTS (And growing....):
UncutAndroid published it first, they tell it how it is and let users speak their mind.
AndoidSPIN Much respect for them too!
Voice Of Android Found me a new site!
RESULTS?!?!
His site is currently down...
Our developers (some who have not been around in a long time) and some who used to feud are ALL working together
and of course the below work...
Thanks to the community and XDA user andyharney we have ("You are" is directed at akaskriller, obviously):
You are in breach of Apache Software License Version 2 & GNU General Public License Version 2.
You are in breach of your AdSense account by hosting copyrighted material, you have been reported
You have been reported to Gameloft for hosting their pirated/warez apps, they have notified their legal dept.
You have been reported to your web host for hosting & distributing pirated/warez apps.
You have been reported to Paypal for profiteering off pirated/warez apps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
WAIT, WHAT'S GOING DOWN?
Recently in one of my guides, a user who apparently did not understand the intent of the thread, starting going off on me that my thread should be deleted... and started singing the praises of AkaSkriller. I thought this guy was a thing of the past. Nope, he has only gotten bigger.
Most people know this guy is a Fraud... he takes the work of our developers (roms, themes, free/paid apps and posts it on his site... behind a $5 donate wall ( $5/month for ACCESS to others work ).
Read some of the below posts where developers have already posted conversations with this guy.... it's sad panda time here.
Not enough, read the lashing he took trying to "apologize" *fake/lying*
Master (Axura ROM) stated that he spoke with AkaSkriller about removing his ROM and he was told he would simply edit the build.prop as to be a different ROM... as if by editing this, it was somehow no longer Master's work!! Since then, there are just more developers supporting this....
This outraged me. I truly respect ALL of our developers, and this is just ONE example of probably 100's where this guy and his site have taken advantage of those in our community who are NOT familiar.
Sooooo........
I propose we do ANOTHER #NeverAgain Twitter campaign where we send out tweets telling people to not use this guys site... we inform people the $5 "donate" for access to files is absurd... and we try and point people to sites like XDA!
A place where we are truly geared to helping our developers/community
(not to make money off noobs).
Here is his site. I only link to it so you can see just how absurd it is. DO NOT give this guy any of your money.
ACTION:
Send out a tweet about it...
Post on your Facebook about it....
Email or send a tweet to other Android sites and ask them to tweet about it....
Sample Tweet (copy and paste if you like):
Sites requiring a donation for access to others work is wrong. Read this: http://goo.gl/l7vSO
I realize some of you think this is crazy/pointless. But it bothers me to have an element like that in a community I really do love.
And yes, I have a "Donate to Me" button. Only because someone volunteered to give me a donation before I had a link.
I've received MAYBE $30... imagine how much I could make on a site like that (near 600 thanks and I am NOT a developer)!
lets play the "I see $5 this many times" game... Maybe just a "thanks button" would work? Nagh, lets make a whole section.
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We could also warn new users/subscribers of his YouTube account by posting comments on his profile page/videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/akaskriller
Edit: I found his real name (David Barkley) and his Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/akamilkweed?sk=wall) if anyone wants to go an evil route, use social engineering, etc to screw with him outside of the internet as revenge.

Good stuff. I may need to edit the title. I don't want to HURT him, more just want to prevent people new to Android/unfamiliar to think what he is doing is acceptable.
Posting on social media its a great tool, inc twitter/facebook/youtube, etc
I have asked popular android blogs to write about it today, here is hoping they care about the community as much as I do.

I'm on board, for no other reason than he charges for people to be able to get to his DL section to get his kanged and stolen roms. That, asking for payment, as per the Apache Open Source Licensing agreement that binds all Android OS builds, is absolutely illegal.
Edit - posted to my facebook, I was emailing with an admin on AndroidSpin yesterday, going to email him now and see if he will get this posted on AndroidSpin
Edit - AndroidSpin admin emailed

Here is some of what he has said to me via email in the past.
"you have put my life and my family life in danger" (How exactly would I have done that..?)
"my post have been change and now ill just really right all the roms u post and make them mine"
..and when I asked him to take the pirated apps off of his site he replied.
"sir thos are all app that are in 4share.com so go bug them ok
your mean"
"dude calm down hater"

I m on board I looked around on his website........... he is just copying other people stuff...........
These type of guys .....they are like weeds in my yard. Always popping up.
Remember all the hurt and problems He will now have are a result of his actions not ours.

Master™ said:
Here is some of what he has said to me via email in the past.
"you have put my life and my family life in danger" (How exactly would I have done that..?)
"my post have been change and now ill just really right all the roms u post and make them mine"
..and when I asked him to take the pirated apps off of his site he replied.
"sir thos are all app that are in 4share.com so go bug them ok
your mean"
"dude calm down hater"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Whoa, there's a voice I haven't heard in a while. How ya been?

Master™ said:
Here is some of what he has said to me via email in the past.
"you have put my life and my family life in danger" (How exactly would I have done that..?)
"my post have been change and now ill just really right all the roms u post and make them mine"
..and when I asked him to take the pirated apps off of his site he replied.
"sir thos are all app that are in 4share.com so go bug them ok
your mean"
"dude calm down hater"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
He could use some lessons in grammar and syntax as well..........

Youtube account
I posted this message on his Youtube subscription page:
"All this guy does is STEAL other developer's work and put it behind a paywall. Don't believe me? Go to XDA forums and find all these ROMs and support for FREE!!!"
It may get deleted, but if everyone on here does the same, it will warn all the noobs that something is up.

I've reached my Thanks limit.. but truly grateful. I feel with enough social media effort we can really help.
For those not familar, my first #NeverAgain campaign was against Samsung.... shortly after, I received calls from them, they were following me on twitter and VERY soon after Froyo was given to us via kies.
my point? To my surprise, it really did work in my opinion (and others).

oka1 said:
He could use some lessons in grammar and syntax as well..........
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
He does that on purpose. I've also had email conversations with him in the past when the first round of threads started about him. He pretends to not speak very good English. But just have a listen to his video, he seems to speak pretty good English in fact.
He will pretend to be a nice guy. Months ago during our email conversation, I talked him into making an apology thread here, which he did. I told him no one is trying to hurt him, Devs just want their credit.
This is the best thing we can do, just warn any new commers to not go and get robbed $5 a month for his stolen ROMS.

eminembdg said:
He does that on purpose. I've also had email conversations with him in the past when the first round of threads started about him. He pretends to not speak very good English. But just have a listen to his video, he seems to speak pretty good English in fact.
He will pretend to be a nice guy. Months ago during our email conversation, I talked him into making an apology thread here, which he did. I told him no one is trying to hurt him, Devs just want their credit.
This is the best thing we can do, just warn any new commers to not go and get robbed $5 a month for his stolen ROMS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly... our community is exponentially growing... people will continue to fall for this trap.

s15274n said:
I've reached my Thanks limit.. but truly grateful. I feel with enough social media effort we can really help.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I hope so, this guy, who blatantly ignores the Licensing laws, seriously gets me out of my ZenDroid, and makes me /rage. I think if we can make this a big enough issue, something may be done by people more powerful than us, like Google who actually releases the software under the Apache Licensing terms. I know thats thinking on a grand scale, but its obvious this guy won't listen to us.

s15274n said:
I've reached my Thanks limit.. but truly grateful. I feel with enough social media effort we can really help.
For those not familar, my first #NeverAgain campaign was against Samsung.... shortly after, I received calls from them, they were following me on twitter and VERY soon after Froyo was given to us via kies.
my point? To my surprise, it really did work in my opinion (and others).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes it does and thank you for the catch and noticing this bad behavior so we all could help arresting it.
.....

I just submitted this to UncutAndroid:
I love Android. I love the Community.
Since my G1 days I have slowly evolved from total noob, to someone who helps answer questions daily on XDA, writing instructional guides, and now testing the waters in app development and theming. The reason I have progressed is the kindness of the community. Every themer/developer I have ever contacted has been so incredibly gracious with their time and sharing their talent. I truly respect these people – and you should too.
I say this so bluntly only because it’s that passion that fuels the article.
There are also many bad elements to the Android Community. The most notable in my opinion are the 3rd party paid app sites AND sites like www.akaskriller.com. I want to focus on the latter, but feel the need to point out those 3rd party app sites give you “free” paid apps, but they also give you App Permissions not requested by the original app – they are malicious.
Please do not be a self-inflicted victim over $0.99. You are on this site, you are smarter than that.
Back to my real intent here. For those not familiar, akaskriller is a site that has a nice front – and that is what it is, a front. They appear to be very genuine and caring, they act like they are helping developers, and they act like they want to help the Android noob.
Nothing could be further from the truth. They want money – money for others work.
Sites that offer others work (ROMs & Themes) behind a $5 donate wall (yes, you pay to get access) are wrong people. Not just wrong for those new to Android – those who genuinely need help and do not know better. But more importantly, it is wrong for the developers who work so hard to improve our phones, at no cost to us.
I am no expert on Apache/Licensing but I would have to assume paying/donating $5 for free software is wrong on a larger scale than I know how to address.
Those familiar with the Samsung Vibrant may recall a movement I suggested. It was called “#NeverAgain Samsung.” I proposed a social media blitz where we told Samsung on Twitter, blogs, Facebook and YouTube that we would not continue to buy their products if they would treat the Android Community the way they did – withholding updates and source.
Shortly after the movement started (and it grew FAST), I received calls from Samsung and they were following me on twitter Froyo and source was given to us via Kies. Perhaps due to our combined community efforts.
I am suggesting we have another outcry - an outcry that our community will not tolerate this. Let the community know this is wrong. I will not be formal and say “do this,” but do something.
Tweet about it, post on Facebook… heck, just tell a developer you appreciate them.
Since mentioning the idea of one developer has told me when he requested his ROM be removed from the site, he was told that they would simply change the build.prop so it was a “new ROM.” Taking away the work this developer did and making it their own.
This is wrong. Do something.
I am s15274n on XDA and you can find me on Twitter @CallipH. If you are noob and you want help, ask me and I will tell you if I can help, for free.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

s15274n said:
I just submitted this to UncutAndroid:
I love Android. I love the Community.
Since my G1 days I have slowly evolved from total noob, to someone who helps answer questions daily on XDA, writing instructional guides, and now testing the waters in app development and theming. The reason I have progressed is the kindness of the community. Every themer/developer I have ever contacted has been so incredibly gracious with their time and sharing their talent. I truly respect these people – and you should too.
I say this so bluntly only because it’s that passion that fuels the article.
There are also many bad elements to the Android Community. The most notable in my opinion are the 3rd party paid app sites AND sites like www.akaskriller.com. I want to focus on the latter, but feel the need to point out those 3rd party app sites give you “free” paid apps, but they also give you App Permissions not requested by the original app – they are malicious.
Please do not be a self-inflicted victim over $0.99. You are on this site, you are smarter than that.
Back to my real intent here. For those not familiar, akaskriller is a site that has a nice front – and that is what it is, a front. They appear to be very genuine and caring, they act like they are helping developers, and they act like they want to help the Android noob.
Nothing could be further from the truth. They want money – money for others work.
Sites that offer others work (ROMs & Themes) behind a $5 donate wall (yes, you pay to get access) are wrong people. Not just wrong for those new to Android – those who genuinely need help and do not know better. But more importantly, it is wrong for the developers who work so hard to improve our phones, at no cost to us.
I am no expert on Apache/Licensing but I would have to assume paying/donating $5 for free software is wrong on a larger scale than I know how to address.
Those familiar with the Samsung Vibrant may recall a movement I suggested. It was called “#NeverAgain Samsung.” I proposed a social media blitz where we told Samsung on Twitter, blogs, Facebook and YouTube that we would not continue to buy their products if they would treat the Android Community the way they did – withholding updates and source.
Shortly after the movement started (and it grew FAST), I received calls from Samsung and they were following me on twitter Froyo and source was given to us via Kies. Perhaps due to our combined community efforts.
I am suggesting we have another outcry - an outcry that our community will not tolerate this. Let the community know this is wrong. I will not be formal and say “do this,” but do something.
Tweet about it, post on Facebook… heck, just tell a developer you appreciate them.
Since mentioning the idea of one developer has told me when he requested his ROM be removed from the site, he was told that they would simply change the build.prop so it was a “new ROM.” Taking away the work this developer did and making it their own.
This is wrong. Do something.
I am s15274n on XDA and you can find me on Twitter @CallipH. If you are noob and you want help, ask me and I will tell you if I can help, for free.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Very well said. I would urge you to submit that as an article to AndroidSpin as well. I haven't had the time to type up anything as eloquent as the way you put it.

I put a post about this on the edt site. Helping out in anyway I can. I would blow him up with social network sites, but I don't belong to any.
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA Premium App

Br1cK'd said:
Very well said. I would urge you to submit that as an article to AndroidSpin as well. I haven't had the time to type up anything as eloquent as the way you put it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ahh, I hit them up on twitter but I just submitted the article to them as well. Good call, they are very good to the Vibrant forums.
^ Thanks for posting on EDT man!!

Thank you all for informing us of this situation. It really makes me mad to see someone take what someone else has worked so hard on, and try and make it there "own". I really appreciate all the hard work our dev's do, and donate and pay for apps.
Have posted on Twitter.
thanks again for the information!

I didn't realize AkaSkriller was such a great themer!

Developer Edition Community Stretch Goals

*This thread is about discussing the future of the Dev Edition as it pertains to the relationship between us and Samsung, and what we need from them. This thread will also contain official updates and information from my contacts at Samsung corporate.*
Ladies and gentlemen, I'm back home and able to respond again in regards to the DE situation. As you all know I had dedicated time to dealing with corporate on the matter of getting our phones in stock and working on other stretch goals such as software support. I told you all that Monday would be a good day but to be honest I had a feeling that we wouldn't have had our products shipped until Tuesday. I have a few ideas as to why this is the case, but more importantly I would like to emphasize and state something very important in regards to our participation in the developer program.
In all my dealings with the project managers and corporate wigs at Samsung I represented the cause on behalf of our community which no one there had heard of. I explained to them the importance and the legacy of XDA Developers, but most of all I made sure to tell them about the tight-knit community that helps each other out, the portal of people who band together in solidarity to raise support for developers, leaders, products. Most importantly I told them that not only does this credo bind us as a small group of users, but that the most important phone advancements come from communities like ours.
With that being said, we have a prime opportunity to make history by influencing their developer program in in a positive way. For that we need everyone to please be civil and respectful when dealing with Samsung customer service at the mobile accessories department. It is not their fault these phones were not ready to go out and they are willing to make it right. I say this as someone with an overnight order that not only didn't go out until today, but went out as ground shipping instead for Monday. There are hundreds of us, many calling in, and the last thing we need is to turn this into a clustercluck. The more positive we make this experience, the better.
I promised it would be a good holiday weekend with the Note 4 so take the time to enjoy it. The delay does push us back a bit on our goals. Tomorrow I will get to the bottom of this and hopefully get you an official explanation. Though we are delayed a bit, the volume of sales was larger than I expected initially which means that we now have a larger community. As one of "The First 40" from last month, we only had a couple of threads and not too much going on. I want to change that and so I will reach out to the mods and see if we can get our own space to collaborate and work together. This requires teamwork and participation as well as patience and a dash of happiness.
My contacts at Samsung see our numbers as leverage to get the things we really want, like support and original firmware as well as possible future updates. There's a lot riding on this so we can't mess it up. I can't delve into specifics about everything I've discussed with them but we may be looking at changing the way vendors officially view unlocked bootloaders and custom roms.
I've drawn up what in my experience is a good map of where to go from here with the product. If you have any input and information, this is the thread to add to the Developer Edition project pipeline. I can't believe we have to do the work for them and we aren't even paid for this, though someone's got to do it or else none of us are getting the full product experience we paid hundreds of dollars for.
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Any questions/concerns/goal ideas/requests here. This should be a good starting map of where to go from here. It is imperative that we all have our units, and we all have the safety net needed to not brick our units which is why Goal 2 is so important. Then we can go on to have custom ROMs. We'll need to collaborate but for now we will enjoy the device this week and figure out what you'd like to see out of the future with Samsung and the dev program.
Sincerely,
Virgil Woods

Reserved for Goal 1 Updates
Update 1: With a one day delay, many of us are getting the phones and it's now out of stock again. Great work, I doubt we will have an idea of when it will be back in stock until next week because of the holidays.
Please take a moment to answer this one question survey on whether you were able to order a DE or you want to and are waiting on the back-order. This will give us a good head count for demand.
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1uf...8JgFisXC4/viewform?c=0&w=1&usp=mail_form_link
Thank you.

Reserved for Goal 2 Updates

Reserved for Goal 3 Updates

How about a program similar to HTC? This would solve almost all problems without even having another sku..

I just looked over the HTC dev program, it's pretty simple and easy to implement something similar but on a smaller scope as a test. The only problem I see with Samsung rejecting the release of the files we need is that it could be used on non-DE models to make them DE editions as we noticed with the latest shipping. Remember, Samsung is still a business and not our buddies so they need a fiscal motivation to compete with HTC, which we've shown them with this high demand. So far they have been painfully ignorant of growing demands and I would attribute it to them not knowing how to properly implement/make money off of this.

I understand what you are saying but why have a developer edition period. If you are talking from a Fiscal standpoint, why does it matter who unlocks the bootloader. I guarantee that they lose sales to HTC because people want root. Nexus and HTC are gaining popularity as Samsung is losing popularity. Verizon and AT&T are losing sales and T-mobile is gaining sales.
People don't want to have to pay full retail when they can upgrade and unlock the retail version...
Here is another consideration, why should someone who pays full retail price for the retail version not be able to unlock the bootloader. It's not Samsung who owns the device... Samsung is greedy for the money... If you give the customer what they deserve that in itself will increase sales.
Why don't you pitch that idea to them. Give the consumer the choice, what Samsung has done was push away customers and make us Angry.. I applaud HTC, they did it right

Hi Virgil, here's a problem I see with your approach. Samsung knows all to well that the huge majority of people buying the Developer Edition of their phones are not developers. They are everyday users who are willing to pay the extra money for a phone they can install a custom recovery on and root. I don't know the statistics for sure, but I would bet that 98% of the Developer Edition Note 4 (for instance) sales have been generated by everyday users...not developers.
I've bought 3 developer devices from Samsung previously. With each previous purchase there was a questionnaire that you had to complete (obviously designed for developers) before your order would be processed. That questionnaire was/is not present in the sales "process" for the Note 4. A developer program is a great idea, but won't go far without real, no kidding developers.
If we want to give Samsung a reason to take our "developer community" serious then we need to find a whole lot of developers.

The whole developer thing is dumb...I own a Dev N3. You have to pay full retail for a device that will never get any updates or any stock firmware package to fall back on. Each dev bootloader has its own signature that is device specific, so there is no way to upgrade the bootloader without a dev specifically signing it to your device. I am running 4.4 Alliance build 2 on a 4.3 bootloader and because of that I have a few small quirks with youtube and bluetooth. Not a huge deal but it irks me.
Samsung should just allow you to have the choice to unlock your bootloader via fastboot at the cost of a voided warranty. Samsung once had the Smartphone market by the ballz. Now they are losing ground.

Sorry guys and girls we need to wait a few days for the Samsung internal team to decide upon the expansion of the developer program before we can begin to see any changes. I was told by the project director that there will be an internal meeting this week and our suggestions have been taken to account. I'm sorry I have nothing better for the community for now. I really want that original firmware most of all so we can begin developing.
Stay tuned and thanks again.
Sincerely,
Virgil Woods

VirgilWoods said:
Sorry guys and girls we need to wait a few days for the Samsung internal team to decide upon the expansion of the developer program before we can begin to see any changes. I was told by the project director that there will be an internal meeting this week and our suggestions have been taken to account. I'm sorry I have nothing better for the community for now. I really want that original firmware most of all so we can begin developing.
Stay tuned and thanks again.
Sincerely,
Virgil Woods
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi Virgil,
Just wanted to say "Thanks" for doing this. It's nice to hear updates from someone who actually does have some inside knowledge even if a particular update is just that we are being heard and more info may come later.

Yeahp THANK YOU

VirgilWoods said:
Sorry guys and girls we need to wait a few days for the Samsung internal team to decide upon the expansion of the developer program before we can begin to see any changes. I was told by the project director that there will be an internal meeting this week and our suggestions have been taken to account. I'm sorry I have nothing better for the community for now. I really want that original firmware most of all so we can begin developing.
Stay tuned and thanks again.
Sincerely,
Virgil Woods
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for your persistance, Virgil. If you can get them to release firmware for the Developer Edition Note 4 you will have promoted yourself from Liason to "The Man".

Motorola Failure to Meet Update Commitments; Petition.

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As many owners of Motorola's Atrix, Atrix HD, Moto E and other models know all too well...
- Motorola has not maintained an organized or regular update cycle for their devices.
- Motorola has repeatedly broken vague promises and hard commitments to update devices.
- This includes cases where the updates were promised on the Motorola website.
- This includes a case where the update was released with details posted on-line but was not actually delivered to the devices stated.
- There has been an instance where an OTA that was a 5.0.x update was displayed as 5.1.x when being installed.
- Some of the affected devices are not service provider branded (just Moto) so Motorola cannot blame the SP as they have in the past.
Picking up on an idea considered when Motorola backed out of their commitment to update the Atrix HD to Lollipop last year, an on-line petition has been created to let Motorola know this is not right. It is focused on the Moto E but is crafted so it can be signed by anyone who has been betrayed by Motorola's failed update commitments or want to see a better way of handling updates. If there is any resolution as a result of this petition, it is unlikely to extend far but we can still let them know about it.
https://www.change.org/p/motorola-f...utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink
Of course feel free to share details about pertinent experiences here in this thread but if you want Motorola to hear it, sign the petition and share the link to it. Also, For the Moto E you can make it known here at the Moto thread where details about the Moto E update are posted https://forums.motorola.com/posts/83391de77a?page=1.
Motorola once was, and should still be, capable of better than this!
------------------------------------
Nov 1, 2016, Greetings:
Motorola. Has finally updated most of the Moto E line to Android Marshmallow. Even some of the devices thought to be left off the update list (such as US retail single sim XT1511) eventually got Marshmallow, although sadly only after many boot-loaders were unlocked. Also, this Change.org petition for Moto E has been automatically closed (naturally expired), which was timely because it serves no purpose anymore, so I'll leave it expired and will ask to have this thread closed. I thank all who participated with signatures or in spirit. It was small in scope but every little bit helps.
One last thing: Although Moto E has been updated, Motorola has not mended it's poor updating ways and have done something similar (even worse by many measures) to yet another device, the Moto G3. There is a petition for that described in this thread: http://forum.xda-developers.com/2015...sprey-t3476321 which I encourage all affected to sign.

You should probably post this in AF also, if you've not already dine so.
Sent from my XT1526 using Tapatalk

starkly_raving said:
You should probably post this in AF also, if you've not already dine so.
Sent from my XT1526 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you mean Android Forums, I've dug up some links to old posts of mine there (or was it Android Central, I don't recall) but they did not seem like good spots for this. Still, it's a good idea. I should be able to find a suitable place at other forums, and am open to specific recommendations. Also, everyone should feel free to share the link to the petition.

Signed and shared.

IronTechmonkey said:
If you mean Android Forums, I've dug up some links to old posts of mine there (or was it Android Central, I don't recall) but they did not seem like good spots for this. Still, it's a good idea. I should be able to find a suitable place at other forums, and am open to specific recommendations. Also, everyone should feel free to share the link to the petition.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Maybe post on Reddit too? The Android community is pretty big there.

Signed!

Ace42 said:
Maybe post on Reddit too? The Android community is pretty big there.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Another good idea. Thanks!

I think you guys shouldnt give a penny to motorola instead of moaning to let them hear your voice. Motorola simply doesnt give the smallest damn about this kind of petitions. Tried and didnt work for numerous times. Dont buy motorola, dont let anyone around you buy motorolas, that is what motorola deserves for their customer relations, marketing and update lies.
Sent from my Nexus 6 using XDA Free mobile app

Semseddin said:
I think you guys shouldnt give a penny to motorola instead of moaning to let them hear your voice. Motorola simply doesnt give the smallest damn about this kind of petitions. Tried and didnt work for numerous times. Dont buy motorola, dont let anyone around you buy motorolas, that is what motorola deserves for their customer relations, marketing and update lies.
Sent from my Nexus 6 using XDA Free mobile app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Boycott is not a bad idea either but that sort of action may actually be harder to organize than efforts like a petition. Have you ever organized a boycott or a petition about this subject? The action of withholding dollars, and the action of creating a petition are not mutually exclusive. Unfortunately many of us already posses these devices and do not have the option to redirect money to a different device at this point but would still like to do something about it. There are no guarantees, but this type of pressure has been made to work before. For me personally, having first used Motorola gear in the form of gray brick shaped walkie talkies and under-dash radios in the 1980s, and since then always being impressed with whatever Motorola device I encountered across a wide range of hardware types; wanting to see Moto do better is part of this. Also, please do note that discouraging the petition and calling it "moaning" in the very thread where it is shared may not go over well.

I miss IDEN.

nobreak1970 said:
I miss IDEN.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What am I missing here?
[EDIT] Oh, I see. You're going old school as well. Nice.

IronTechmonkey said:
Boycott is not a bad idea either but that sort of action may actually be harder to organize than efforts like a petition. Have you ever organized a boycott or a petition about this subject? The action of withholding dollars, and the action of creating a petition are not mutually exclusive. Unfortunately many of us already posses these devices and do not have the option to redirect money to a different device at this point but would still like to do something about it. There are no guarantees, but this type of pressure has been made to work before. For me personally, having first used Motorola gear in the form of gray brick shaped walkie talkies and under-dash radios in the 1980s, and since then always being impressed with whatever Motorola device I encountered across a wide range of hardware types; wanting to see Moto do better is part of this. Also, please do note that discouraging the petition and calling it "moaning" in the very thread where it is shared may not go over well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I haven't organized a petition like this before but participated for atrix 4g ics update and xt910 bootloader unlock petitions back in time, the electronic signs were counted by nearly 10k and motorola didnt give the smallest damn about those, just igroned us. I am not here to discourage anyone but i posted just to say dont bother your precious time to tame a liar company in a friendly manner, not worth it. They dont listen to their customers at all. I also like motorola hardware and that is where it ends for me, everything else in motorola just have the stinkny worst smell of all. Their marketing, service team, software team are all the worst but they used to have good engineers, not sure if they still have them looking at their 2015 portfolio can be called at best pathetic.
Hope you guys get the updates you deserve for your devices though. Just dont buy anything else branded motorola in future, this will teach them better how to behave as a responsible company when they dont see money flowing into their vault.
Sent from my Nexus 6 using XDA Free mobile app

Semseddin said:
.....electronic signs were counted by nearly 10k...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
10k? To believe that number I would have to have see proof, including the specific details and target/recipient of the petition.
Semseddin said:
. .. I am not here to discourage anyone but i posted just to say dont bother your precious time...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Within one 18 word statement you contradict yourself. If you don't like the food being served then don't pull up to the table. Perhaps you could vent by creating an anti petition petition that discourages people from signing petitions, but whatever you do please take it elsewhere.

Not really surprised by this sadly.

IronTechmonkey said:
10k? To believe that number I would have to have see proof, including the specific details and target/recipient of the petition.
Within one 18 word statement you contradict yourself. If you don't like the food being served then don't pull up to the table. Perhaps you could vent by creating an anti petition petition that discourages people from signing petitions, but whatever you do please take it elsewhere.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Whatever, live your dream. Here is your numbers. Operation mosh, signed by 16k
https://www.change.org/p/motorola-mobility-inc-unlock-all-smartphone-bootloaders-2
Supportmymoto, no numbers but way above 10k supporters and real media support in a pro way.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=32363139#post32363139
Now, you got ur numbers. Those petitions were for phones in premium range above 400$. Motorola just ignored them. You believe motorola would give a damn about your 50$ phone? Good luck with your dreams.
Sent from my Nexus 6 using XDA Free mobile app

Semseddin said:
...Operation mosh, signed by 16k https://www.change.org/p/motorola-mobility-inc-unlock-all-smartphone-bootloaders-2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Impressive that they got 16k and I agree with it in principal but that is a request to unlock bootloader, against which Motorola (and other device manufacturers) are well insulated legally. The same is not necessarily the case for provably failed published commitments to provide a product or service.
Semseddin said:
Supportmymoto, no numbers but way above 10k supporters and real media support in a pro way.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=32363139#post32363139
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A well presented case with good coverage but again, it is for getting an unlocked bootloader which is a steeper uphill battle.
Semseddin said:
....Good luck with your dreams....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you for the warm wishes, and for the details of the other actions, which I did find informative, helpful, and actually encouraging (although I still have modest hopes).

i am impressed the poll has 80 / 100 right now cool !
I wouldn't have had to rip my hair out today trying to install v5.1 onto my Moto-E if they update with my oem (Telus)
It sucks because i just wanted to run the stock rom
I got it installed but no matter what i tried i couldn't get the provider connection back for calls/txt's
What a drag too ..i swear it started up and ran fast than 5.0.2 (what i went back to)
Thank god i made a TWRP backup before meddling with things..
So hell yeah i voted
edit:
It's totally stupid they only updated *some of the oem's with 5.1
that is a massive slap in the face to those of us who missed out on v5.1 Lollipop !

I won't buy Motorola any more

Just a bit of an update. The petition now has 120 signatures which tells me that people must be sharing the link. Thanks to everyone who has signed and circulated it! I don't know what that really means in terms of the ability to exert some commercial pressure on Motorola but it does indicate that there are many people impacted by this, especially when you consider that there are likely large #s of people using the affected devices who don't participate in forums like this.
When I first gathered contact information for the petition, Motorola Customer Service provided an email address for the CEO that turned out to be incorrect. Fortunately I had others and sent a test email to see which would be rejected as invalid before creating the petition. Considering that experience, I've started searching outside the Moto support track for names and contact information for all of the Moto executives and departments that I can find to widen the target.
Thanks again to all who've signed, circulated, and provided constructive input.
[EDIT] Shared by user hyzteric at the Moto "excuse making forum" https://forums.motorola.com/posts/83391de77a?commentId=1000234#1000234 is news that the Mote E is still being sold which is really low.
http://www.androidcentral.com/motorola-either-update-moto-e-or-stop-selling-it
I already knew this but had not considered the ramifications. They are still sticking it to new purchasers of those devices. Lower than low!

Semseddin said:
.....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Soooo, although we differ on the merits of a petition we are in the same boat (betrayed by Moto) even if we may disagree on how to navigate it, and I must thank you for the details of the actions to which you referred. While hunting down email addresses of Moto's executives I also found the addresses from one of those previous actions. Between the ones I found that were not on that list and the ones from that list we now have a wider target for the petition.
Seriously - Thanks!
One thing I hope we have going for us this time is that it was/is not illegal for Motorola to decline to share their source code, but what they did this time might actually be illegal or at least actionable in a commercial sense.

[Bounty] [already $2950+] Unofficial bootloader unlock

Hello everybody,
We are clearly a lot of people asking for a bootloader unlock, more and more people are mourning in threads (me included...) for an unofficial bootloader unlock.
But this takes time and skill, and these aren't cheap.
So, if instead of asking everyday how things are going, if it is already there, etc... we could do something about it, pledge some money, all of us, to make this come true.
We don't have to pay upfront, just add your name and the amount you will pledge (please don't make false statements, it will just make you look like an *$$hole).
If someone finds a way, we will send over the pledged amount as a regard for the hard work and a way to say thank you.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13i13RN1CJiOJA6AQqpKdBQ6p-aoTdy1lUq0Dm6YAMOg/edit?usp=sharing
Just input your pledge amount (without a dollar sign, comma's or cents it will be added automatically) so that the sum is correctly shown.
I hope that this way we can encourage harder work on this and maybe even some enthusiasts which didn't really think about it but might be interested to invest some time for the reward.
If a "team" is created about this, please make things clear between yourself, so that there isn't a war for the money afterwards...
Hoping this will help make things go forward and also stop the sadness in some threads
Edit : Please give your model number if you only want to pledge for a specific model. If no model number is given, the pledge is valid for any unofficial unlock method working on any LG G4 model.
I will lock modification on given pledges to secure the data regularly (someone could just want to delete everything for selfish fun). If someone wants to modify something after that, please notify me. Modifications made after an unlock exploit is made public or announced won't be accepted for logical causes.
Please use your full XDA Nickname, this way we can ensure that you are willing to help and create some trust in the shown numbers.
Other rules :
Please keep on topic: Only talk about advancements of the unlock situation/bounty or the pledges you make. If you just want to start a flamewar by pointing out your opinion on bounties, you can go to Facebook.
All Pledges over 50$ (included) will have to be also written down in the thread, else, they will be put on hold for the time being.
Only make pledges you are willing to hold and make. Be fair.

Nice idea. My pledge added

Plegde added too

...

i'm in
don't we need some sort of trusted middleman for this thing though? otherwise it might not go anywhere...

dogroll said:
i'm in
don't we need some sort of trusted middleman for this thing though? otherwise it might not go anywhere...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just input the number of your pledge, the dollar sign is automatic (to get the total), I will correct it from time to time if I see it happen.
The problem is, who should be the middleman ? ^^
There are two ways, either by trust (pledging meaning you will honour it by the amount you gave) or a middleman which we would send the money to and which would reverse it...
I personally believe in people for this kind of stuff to pay for a well done work (and lose their reputation if not). Other opinions ?
I would propose @autoprime or @codeworkx for this if they want to seing their seniorship and already proven help for the community if we have to go down this route.

ChriKn said:
PS: I am not sure if we should add a "device" list to the spreadsheet if the exploit only works for some people/devices, give me your opinion on this
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think this information would be quite useful.

dboechat said:
I think this information would be quite useful.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Could someone give me a list of all existing models ? I am on mobile right now, so not that easy

These are the models I remember right now:
USA models: T-Mobile (H811), AT&T (H810), Verizon (VS986)
European model (H815)
Hong Kong model (H815T)
South American models (H815P)

Australian model (H815K)

Canada Bell H812
---------- Post added at 09:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:03 AM ----------
And Im in for a tenner

Turkish model 815Tr

It will be easier if everybody gives his own model into the chart I believe, if no model is given, than it would mean the pledge is given for an unlock on any model.
Everybody OK with it ?
@wadken1 @v1c70r @dogroll @dboechat @JanMarty @5nickers @strifexx please add it if you want to !
If someone finds a better (readable) solution, feel free to contribute

ChriKn said:
It will be easier if everybody gives his own model into the chart I believe, if no model is given, than it would mean the pledge is given for an unlock on any model.
Everybody OK with it ?
@wadken1 @v1c70r @dogroll @dboechat @JanMarty @5nickers @strifexx please add it if you want to !
If someone finds a better (readable) solution, feel free to contribute
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good plan. Edited mine to reflect my model

ChriKn said:
It will be easier if everybody gives his own model into the chart I believe, if no model is given, than it would mean the pledge is given for an unlock on any model.
Everybody OK with it ?
@wadken1 @v1c70r @dogroll @dboechat @JanMarty @5nickers @strifexx please add it if you want to !
If someone finds a better (readable) solution, feel free to contribute
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sure. Good idea. Editing now

H815 sea

Little Info : (allready written in first post) I will regularly make a backup of the file and restrain modification on already pledged amounts and names, so that some joker can't destroy this.
If you want to edit something before an exploit is found and/or anounced, feel free to PM me
(Thanks to the (probably 10 year old) guy pledging 999$ with the nickname "yourmom" which gave me this idea)

NalNalas said:
pledged $10 vs986
I put my name as nal btw
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If possible please put your full login, this way it is easier and safer to get things done if an exploit is found

NalNalas said:
got ya, I'll change it to nalnalas
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If the user which used "well" could do the same, it would be great This is the way to have a developer confident enough in our pledges.

Just added my $10 for H815P (Brazil) model.