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According to tweakers.net (dutch), a very popular and more important, trustworthy Dutch IT website.
XDA-Developers (And thus also Duttythroy.net) breaches intellectual property laws regarding ROM Cooking.
However Microsoft and HTC both agree "We can't live with 'em and we can't live without 'em."
Microsoft will not send take down orders to sites such as XDA-Developers, who offer customized ROMs for windows-mobile telephone.
Some sites offering ROMs based on Windows Mobile 6.5 got take down orders last week. They, However, appeared to be hoax.
“Taking action against sites such as XDA-Developers isn’t a matter of concern for Microsoft” says Maarten Sonneveld of Microsoft Netherlands against tweakers.net. “What happens there, the modifying of ROMs, is illegal. The intellectual property however is not with us. The ROMs are intellectual property of the producers of the phone or the mobile phone providers if it concerns branded telephones. We simple only deliver the OS.”
The biggest producer of Windows Mobile-phones, HTC, also says they don’t have any plans to take action against ROM sites. “What happens there isn’t allowed” says HTC Benelux-CEO Mark Moons,
“But XDA-Developers is the biggest and most active community of Windows Mobile-developers. We can’t live with ‘em and we can’t live without ‘em.”
Last week it seemed there were to come an end to tolerating Windows Mobile-communities.
A certain ‘James Young’ sent emails on behalf of Microsoft to site managers in which he stated that they were sharing illegal content, and summoned them to stop their practices; some site managers, in fact, did this.
It mostly concerned ROMs with betas of Windows Mobile 6.5, the update of Microsoft’s Mobile OS that should appear this summer.
The email of Young appeared, however, to be a hoax.
Microsoft denied against XDA-Developers that the summoning came from them, they also say that the email address is incorrect and that summons such as these always are sent by written letters instead of email. Not so long ago someone with the exact same email address and name sent the same kind of emails to sites that, according to him, placed illegal content for the Xbox. The Pirate Bay also received a message by ‘James Young’ in the past.
Aside from this: a funny fact is that recently Arne, when he still was on our team, contacted Microsoft and HTC concerning this very issue as we were wondering the legal status of sharing ROMs.
He however didn't receive any clear answer even though he called a zillion times and emailed to infinity, twice.
source: translated with google
so, HTC and Microsoft have acknowledged that they can't really stop us as that would pretty much halt independent development for Windows Mobile... i'd say that's a good thing
disillusionment
really microsoft is big company,but in this behaviors it will be smallest in eyes of thier system users and developers.
So small comment to microsoft (go to hell) u did not stop the developing & progression in the world.
Commercial facts
As I understand the info shared by Nemonique...
The matter of bann this develops... is concerned by the brand... but... this makes people buy devices... cause at last... the business is sell devices.. no matter if it has the shipped version X.XXXXXXXXXXXXX or the Last upgrade Y:YYYYYYYYYYYYYYY, it does´t matter they buy the OS original and upload to their devices... the upgrading modding and sharing is responsability of the user... they lost his warranty by unlocking... the business is to sell devices.
I think this ends on summer... so... provide links here is risky... pirate bay has almost closed cause the GUB on swed has told them "if you search on that site we bann you from Internet providers..." so the user at the end is the responsable.
homam_france said:
really microsoft is big company,but in this behaviors it will be smallest in eyes of thier system users and developers.
So small comment to microsoft (go to hell) u did not stop the developing & progression in the world.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Uhh, I really advise you to read the OP again..
Microsoft is NOT to blame, it was a moron IMPERSONATING MS.
Please refrain from bashing Microsoft, or we will be forced to invoke your right to use a WinMo device and will convict you to use an iPhone
BTW You are free to post ANY ROM (provided they don't contain warez).
They won't be removed (until a true complaint from MS or HTC arrives).
Regards,
EquinoXe
now, i understand more the letter, but did this process is useful for them?they couldn`t stop any one,but only the websites will be the victim.
or there is the enycripitation or the hidden will works,they try to build illegal world by thier legal stuff.
sorry, but it is really disapointed matter.
homam_france said:
now, i understand more the letter, but did this process is useful for them?they couldn`t stop any one,but only the websites will be the victim.
or there is the enycripitation or the hidden will works,they try to build illegal world by thier legal stuff.
sorry, but it is really disapointed matter.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
HTC themselves said it: We can't live with 'em, and we can't live without 'em !
In other words: They're not going to do anything since any Action against this site will seriously harm the Windows Mobile Community.
So, as the-equinoxe said, as long as your ROM does not contain warez, you can post it here, and download the ROMs of others as well without fearing a reprimand for it...
the-equinoxe said:
Uhh, I really advise you to read the OP again..
Microsoft is NOT to blame, it was a moron IMPERSONATING MS.
Please refrain from bashing Microsoft, or we will be forced to invoke your right to use a WinMo device and will convict you to use an iPhone
BTW You are free to post ANY ROM (provided they don't contain warez).
They won't be removed (until a true complaint from MS or HTC arrives).
Regards,
EquinoXe
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So, being this said, why not remove the fake email's posted on Sun_Dream's thread, and perhaps, if there is a way, restore all the info that was deleted, to show appreciation for his work. I think that would be the best way to apologize for the action taken(which at the time was justified based on the unknown/unconfirmed veracity of those emails, and as a precaution to protect XDA), and welcome back Sun_Dream.(not that he was banned, but we all know how uncomfortable he must have felt.
Well i want just to comment the legitimacy of rom modifying. It is illegal but noone cares. Microsoft cares about leaked betas but not too much as you see - they can afford few leaks here and there, but they can not afford to loose such large community of beta tersters and developers (a massive feedback for roms and devices) - and it is for free for them so thats why they do not care. Microsoft takes money for licensing their mobile OS to OEM manifacturers and Operators. One as these OEM manifacturers is HTC, their reason to not care is that forums like xda-developers makes them popular - free advertising - if they cut the rom upgrades and ban rom cooking they risk bad advertising and sales drop, why they should loose money instead of making them ?! Also some other phone manifacturers have turned to WM - SonyEricsson, Samsung (with OMNIA series, the other ones were crap) they feel whats happening and they want a piece of the pie . Why mobile operators do not care ? Well they buy some licenses for their branded devices and in most cases the mnifacturer makes the rom and the operator makes the customization. No one takes measures because in the long run it will harm their profits.
Someone may ask: Why it is illegal i have license for my device? - The license is for one and only one version of Windows mobile + upgrades of the same version. You may upgrade to new WM major version only if your OEM or Operator offer you a upgrade.
So we @ xda-developers make things which operators and OEMs will not do, this makes people happy and Microsoft is happy because of rapid growing popularity of windows mobile (more popularity = more profits), OEM's are happy about the popularity of their devices so everyone is happy
I am really sleepy so please excuse me if i have any typos or misstakes
So, I guess this infamous internet investigator was a hoax after all, huh? I guess it did sound a little far fetched that M$ would hire someone and would give him/her a dumbas$ title like that.
In any case, I completely agree with xplode's statement. M$ doesn't necessarily make much advertising on their WM platforms and equipment manufacturers don't spend that much money on advertising their stuff either. In fact, HTC is just beginning to have some sort of advertising (public kind like TV commercials and such) in the US. I gotta be honest, if it wasn't for this site, I would not know that HTC ever made anything beyond the Wallaby, which BTW I didn't know was manufactured by HTC until I nearly bricked it and found this site.
Just think about this for a second. Think about the number and size of forums and blogs dedicated to WM vs iPhone, Symbian, and BlackBerry. And now compare that to the money spent in advertising of the same devices. More than likely, Apple would top the charts in spending since everyone out there was literally brainwashed by the iPhone's outstanding marketing campaign. The Blackberry has always been out there somewhat competing with WM, but due to the lack of interest of freelance developers out there for these devices, they have had to dump big chunks of cash into advertising.
To put things more into perspective, think about how the announcements by HTC show up in this site right after being made by them. Normally, within a few hours the WM communities will get winds of new devices coming this way... which is, for lack of a better term, free advertising. They create a big expectation among seasoned users and new comers alike. Some of them, even willing to dump large sums of money on the new devices even though theirs are only a few months old. For this same reason, (and once again, I agree with xplode) shutting us (and other communities down) would be like cutting an arm. Plus, they don't pay us, so what's the harm?
Aside from all that, M$ understand that not everyone will have money to upgrade devices as they are released, but if the customer is kept happy, he/she is more likely to be a returning customer when his/her situation allows. So, let them keep their betas and their leaks.
All in all, kudos to M$ and HTC for understanding our role in this game. And as far as James "Jacka$$" Young, go kill yourself... you and people like you are the reason why the internet has a bad rep these days.
EGZ
markanthonypr said:
So, being this said, why not remove the fake email's posted on Sun_Dream's thread, and perhaps, if there is a way, restore all the info that was deleted, to show appreciation for his work. I think that would be the best way to apologize for the action taken(which at the time was justified based on the unknown/unconfirmed veracity of those emails, and as a precaution to protect XDA), and welcome back Sun_Dream.(not that he was banned, but we all know how uncomfortable he must have felt.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for bringing this into attention.
As there where many threads "purged" by the site admins (who are the ones who deal with the copyright cases), I have no idea which posts in which threads all need to be restored.
I have seen some of sun_dreams work I and I was impressed (and that is a difficult thing to achieve).
They deserve to be restored. (So I just restored the one containing the letter myself)
Please use the
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button in the threads to report those threads who have wrongly been purged but not yet repaired, so the mods can repair those threads where possible.
Use a text like "Please restore this 6.5 ROM post which was a victim of the James Young hoax, but was not yet repaired" to let us mods and the admins know why you are reporting a thread.
In regards to these threads, please have some patience, it was a big task to purge them, unpurging is sometimes even more difficult.
Especially for a poor mod
Regarding this thread: I can safely say that your complaints have been heard and are acted upon.
Please report other threads/post regarding the 6.5 ROMs using the above mentioned method so all the mods and the admins are notified, not only the few who read this thread.
That is why I close this thread: to make sure that every report get it's fair hearing, and not only by the few who read this thread.
With Kind Regards,
EqX
Any suggestions as to the best way to harass HTC into releasing the EVO source code quicker?
Send them e-mails or phone calls? Call Sprint and ask for it?
Can we do something like the campaign we tried for the FPS issue?
Thanks.
Per zonyl on page 2:
I managed to get Linux source for the Sharp Zaurus within a week and a half and Im sure following the same playbook will speed up the process with HTC as well. Hopefully I will have some time next week to do this, but the more the merrier! The more people call and contact legal the more attention it will get.
The plan:
- Call HTC corporate
HTC America
13920 SE Eastgate Way, Suite 400
Bellevue, Washington 98005
Tel: 425-679-5318
- Ask for representative in Legal Department (Tell them it is regarding potential litigation)
- Get legal representative's contact information before or immediately after being transferred.
- Politely ask for disclosure of GPL/Linux source code per section 3 of the GPL for the device they manufactured and that you purchased. (You may need to explain a little as they generally have no idea what this is. Doesnt matter much though as they still wont understand but make sure you explain its something that their engineering folks are liable for)
- Give them the GPL (by fax) http://www.linux.org/info/gnu.html The license is even on the phone itself (Menu->Settings->About Phone->Legal Information->Open Source). Scroll down and you will see the linux kernel GPL
- Give them a written request (by fax) "Dear Sir or Madam, ..... Requesting Source for my product in compliance with GPL Section 3-a ... Thank you...."
- They will tell you they need some time to figure it out.... Give them about a week and call back (they will try to ignore you on the first call in hopes you go away)
- Call back using the representatives contact info. Ask them for the status.
- If they are stalling ask for the legal address to list as a defendant on a lawsuit for breach of contract and will be demanding "An Order of Specific Performance" to release the code. (BE POLITE! BUT FIRM) (This will definitely get their attention!)
- Wait a few days. Someone from engineering with a foreign accent will call you with information on when / where the source will be released.
- If this doesnt get anywhere, we can talk about the process of starting a lawsuit without paying lawyer. When HTC is served legal papers for discovery, Im pretty sure they will comply.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
lolz mclollerson said:
Any suggestions as to the best way to harass HTC into releasing the EVO source code quicker?
Send them e-mails or phone calls? Call Sprint and ask for it?
Can we do something like the campaign we tried for the FPS issue?
Thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It seems no amount of begging ever makes them release code faster. Even legal threats failed before (not for the Evo, but its the same thing)
They know they have to release it by this point. They will do it, but on their own schedule. Pushing them to do it sooner hasn't gotten us anywhere before & I don't see it helping here either.
Damn, that's pretty disappointing.
Thanks for the heads up. :-/
I was actually talking to a guy from HTC earlier today about releasing the source. He told me that they will release it but he does not know when.
gman8966 said:
I was actually talking to a guy from HTC earlier today about releasing the source. He told me that they will release it but he does not know when.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Information content of this mesage: 0%.
Of course they will release it, the GPL requires them to do so. But then again they are already violating it every day they don't release it, so maybe they will just say f*ck it.
Bring a class action suit if you're really worried about it, you won't make any $, lawyer will get rich -- but maybe, just maybe it will hit HTC hard enough to realize they can't jerk the Open Source Community around and they are bound by the same laws as everyone else.
midri said:
Bring a class action suit if you're really worried about it, you won't make any $, lawyer will get rich -- but maybe, just maybe it will hit HTC hard enough to realize they can't jerk the Open Source Community around and they are bound by the same laws as everyone else.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why do people always come up with this?
You have no standing to sue anyone over this. Copyright holders in the Linux kernel, *they* have standing to sue someone over this.
The GPL says they have to make the source available, but it's not for you to use legal means to force them to do it.
Class action? Who's the affected class? The people who bought the Evo? Not hardly.
A class action that will hurt HTC? make them reconsider releasing Android phones? you might get a short term benefit of getting source code (well, not really, since the law suit will take longer) but in the long term, the Android community will just lose one of it's biggest supporters
I really think sprint is to blame for this you notice all of the source is availed for just about every other phone except the .29 heroc kernel and the evo kernel makes ya wonder if they are playing a part
If the source isn't out by my 30 days (7/6), it's going back. There's no excuse for being so cavalier with copyrights. Ironic considering they just launched a legal campaign against Shipped ROMs.
What we need is for a high profile e-zine to write an article.
-------------------------------------
Sent via the XDA Tapatalk App
What we need is for HTC to stop acting like Apple just because they finally have a phone that can compete with the iPhone. I don't care if this damn thing files my taxes and makes breakfast for me, if they can't respect the GPL they sure as hell aren't going to keep a cent of my money.
I've contacted HTC and Sprint... not luck... you can search my posts if you really want to read the responses.... I even contacted the FSF (I think they are the copyright holders for Linux Kernel for Linus) and no response from them... so eh yeah we just wait
Apparently you didnt have a Hero. The only thing you can do is wait...
What we really need to do is to start a twitter bombarding campaign like the Sprint hero users did. It took a bit, but it did work.
troyboytn said:
What we really need to do is to start a twitter bombarding campaign like the Sprint hero users did. It took a bit, but it did work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1 for this
How long did it take for the Hero's source to be released?
caryroberts1 said:
How long did it take for the Hero's source to be released?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
3+ Months...Phone dropped in October, source came out in January.
PikkonX said:
3+ Months...Phone dropped in October, source came out in January.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That just makes me even more angry.
I have obtained some super secretive information that can help us get the edge. Through hours of undercover work and social engineering I have discovered that the HTC Engineers are partial to Ben & Jerry's Half Baked ice cream.
I urge all of you to start a letter writing campaign to Ben & Jerry's urging them to exchange 10 pallets of ice cream for the source code. If we can't convince Ben & Jerry's that our charity is worthwhile, then we need to start raising money to buy it ourselves.
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I've never asked this forum for anything, but I am asking now..
Htc must release the source in a timely matter, not just for us, but all devices out, and future ones coming. The best way to do this imo is not to start a big fire and smoke them out per say, but to go though proper channels. Obviously emailing them is having no effect, 120 days is not timely, I mean in 120 days this device will be outdated technically.
Imo this is the proper channel: http://gpl-violations.org/faq/violation-faq.html
Go there, read their page and then email them. Here is the letter I sent to the. Subject, "htc again, this time the vision" :
"I just wanted to bring to your attention that htc is in violation of the gpl again. As I'm sure your aware from other devices they released, ie desire, they are not releasing kernel source codes in a timely manner. In the case of the desire it has been over 3 months and to my knowledge is still not released, however my complaint today is about the htc vision, known in the usa as the G2. This product was offically released on oct. 6 2010, with no source code available. When contacted about it, they said it will be 90-120 days before its available. Maybe I'm wrong, but as my interpertations of the gpl this is unacceptable. Since the product is commerically available, then surely the source code is, and just being held back purposely.
Thank you for your help!
Keep open source open!"
edit: 4:45 pm est 10-09-10
here is their response:
"We heard you. In fact, we got the message seven times
We have already been in contact with HTC and they have heard the message
loud and clear. I have no idea when it will be fixed though
armijn"
fastludeh22 said:
Htc must release the source in a timely matter, not just for us, but all devices out, and future ones coming. The best way to do this imo is not to start a big fire and smoke them out per say, but to go though proper channels. Obviously emailing them is having no effect, 120 days is not timely, I mean in 120 days this device will be outdated technically.
Imo this is the proper channel: http://gpl-violations.org/faq/violation-faq.html
Go there, read their page and then email them. Here is the letter I sent to the. Subject, "htc again, this time the vision" :
"I just wanted to bring to your attention that htc is in violation of the gpl again. As I'm sure your aware from other devices they released, ie desire, they are not releasing kernel source codes in a timely manner. In the case of the desire it has been over 3 months and to my knowledge is still not released, however my complaint today is about the htc vision, known in the usa as the G2. This product was offically released on oct. 6 2010, with no source code available. When contacted about it, they said it will be 90-120 days before its available. Maybe I'm wrong, but as my interpertations of the gpl this is unacceptable. Since the product is commerically available, then surely the source code is, and just being held back purposely.
Thank you for your help!
Keep open source open!"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No offense, but perhaps you should have someone proofread your letter first. There are a number of grammatical errors in there. If you're posting in the boards, people just don't care, but YOU should care if you're sending a letter that is supposed to be accepted as intelligent and factual.
I can't stress this enough. I know a guy that does AMAZING web-design, but never gets hired(without me as an intermediary anyways) because his grammar and spelling is horrible. He miss-spells every other word, uses many words out of context, and rarely uses proper punctuation and capitalization.
This is not a rant and rave, but if you'd like a regulatory entity to take you seriously, it's in your best interest to put your best foot forward and proofread.
Sorry if this comes off as 'complainy', but if you're going to represent a community as a whole, i.e. xda or developers entirely, just do so gracefully.
InGeNeTiCs said:
No offense, but perhaps you should have someone proofread your letter first. There are a number of grammatical errors in there. If you're posting in the boards, people just don't care, but YOU should care if you're sending a letter that is supposed to be accepted as intelligent and factual.
I can't stress this enough. I know a guy that does AMAZING web-design, but never gets hired(without me as an intermediary anyways) because his grammar and spelling is horrible. He miss-spells every other word, uses many words out of context, and rarely uses proper punctuation and capitalization.
This is not a rant and rave, but if you'd like a regulatory entity to take you seriously, it's in your best interest to put your best foot forward and proofread.
Sorry if this comes off as 'complainy', but if you're going to represent a community as a whole, i.e. xda or developers entirely, just do so gracefully.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
well, you are right. maybe i shouldnt have done it lying in bed from my phone. so do US a favor and send a better one...
when re-reading it, i noticed 1 run on sentence. could you point out the other errors for me so i can improve my writing skills...
Mistakes marked as bold, corrections in parentheses. Also, some word changes made to make it sound like an adult wrote it
I just wanted to bring to your attention that htc is in violation of the gpl again. Formal letters to companies should begin "To Whom It May Concern: As I'm sure your (you're) aware from other devices they have released, ie (i.e.) desire (the Desire), they are not releasing (htc has not been releasing) kernel source codes in a timely manner. In the case of the desire (Desire,) it has been over 3 months (since the device was released) and to my knowledge is still not released, (and, to my knowledge, the kernel remains unreleased.) however my complaint today (However, my complaint today) is about (in regards to) the htc vision (Vision), known in the usa (USA) as the G2. This product was offically (officially) released on oct. 6 2010 (Oct. 6, 2010), with no source code available. When contacted about it (contacted regarding this), they (htc) said (that) it will (would) be 90-120 days before its (the code [or source code] is made) available. Maybe (perhaps) I'm wrong (mistaken), but(,) as my interpertations of the gpl according to my interpretation of GPL,) this is unacceptable. Since the product is commerically available, then surely the source code is, and just being held back purposely. (Horrible closing sentence and "commercially" is misspelled and I believe you meant "purposefully")
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
damn, i guess thats why i was always better at math, lol. i should have re-read it before sending it half asleep, but enough with the excuses. i see your point and that does sound better, HOWEVER, guess it was good enough for them, here is their response...
*also thanks to whoever else has sent, or will be sending emails to the proper channels
"We heard you. In fact, we got the message seven times
We have already been in contact with HTC and they have heard the message
loud and clear. I have no idea when it will be fixed though
armijn"
great idea -- sent this (edited and worded in my way, dont give a **** if its grammertikally inkorrect) from 6 gmails 3 yahoos 1 hotmail, one rocketmail, an earthlink, a comcast and a tmo.mail. and my law firm email, and just for hell, I faxed off a few to HTC Tmobile and to Apache on law firm letterhead (basic courtesy of notification) that how pissed i am -- this phone should have been delivered to us with first option after initial boot
"Hello dear customer, would you like to void your warranty right now and proceed to data wipe of our clunky bloaty bull****!!!!"
arrrgh
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i'm sorry,i just had to
Wow...
That's all I really have to say about this thread...
Sent from my HTC Vision
"To whom it may pertain to...
Just purchased a HTC T-mobile G2 aka HTC Vision and have been a avid HTC supporter for quite sometime. Ever since I owned my first HTC device the codenamed blueangel. The fact that HTC would work with the developer community pulled me toward your devices. I can't believe you guys (HTC) would lock down the successor to the device that helped you start the "open" revolution. I know it was most probably T-mobile that made you do it but that is besides the point. Especially since they have blamed you in the press. You have spit it the face of the developer community and shame on you and T-mobile. This protection will be broken I have no doubt of that but the fact that HTC put it there at all is what is in question. Please don't make this a race of protection...hack...protection...hack. OPEN means we should work together not against each other. So please do the right thing and help us either root these devices or give us the kernel source to help us along. Or even better do both of the above and show you respect the dev community like we all thought you did. Below I have included the first post of a stream that will become a torrent against HTC from the XDA devs.
Thanks for your cooperation."
Message I just sent HTC with a copy of the first post here. Don't care about grammar and neither will they if they receive enough complaints. We get enough people involved in this and it gets engadget or another blogs attention then maybe they will listen. This might be our only option considering the thinktank threads have gotten kinda quiet.
We cannot comment on whether or not HTC has blocked any customer from rooting or hacking their phone.
Rooting the phone may open the phone up to virus attacks and other un-secure activities, as well as introduce intended functionality, and as such is very difficult for us to support.
We cannot comment on whether or not HTC, Google, or T-Mobile has blocked any customer from rooting or hacking their phone.
All three companies work very closely to bring you the best experience on the phone possible.
I do understand how important it is to be able to use your device to the best of its capabilities.
We are not withholding the kernel; we are currently working through the legal channels that we must go through to make the kernel available to you. Each product is individually under review.
When the kernel is available, you will be able to find it on developer.htc.com. I apologize for any inconvenience you may have experienced, and thank you for your patience in this matter.
You can contact HTC Technical Support via telephone by calling 866.449.8658 between 6AM – 1AM EST, seven days a week.
To send a reply to this message or let me know I have successfully answered your question log in to our ContactUs site using your email address and your ticket number 10USCW42ENA000115.
Sincerely,
Sarah
HTC
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That was a quick generic response. boo...hiss...
My reply to HTC
I understand the position of HTC to not comment on the situation at hand even though it has already been outed in the press by T-mobile that HTC did indeed lock the phone. So either you are saying that the T-mobile press release was a hoax and HTC did nothing with write protection or HTC just want's the problem to go away. As far as not wanting us to root because of unsafe activities.... Well I don't even know where to start with that comment. We are all big boys and girls and can handle the effect of our actions. It's like saying Toyota installed a system in my car that will only let a certified technician open the hood because I may insert washer fluid into the engine instead of oil. Most companies would love it if you would void your warranty. Does it not lead to less operating cost for HTC in the long run to not support it's products because the warranties are void? You don't want me to void my warranty then do as the GPS companies do and make a disclaimer that I have to read and agree to before I go any further. Also on the subject of voiding warranties did HTC not say that G2 had 4gb's of internal storage? Yet only 1.2gb are available for use because of this lock? Back to the car analogies. If Ford says your car has 200 horse power in the brochure and (AFTER!!!!) you buy it you learn that only 50 horse power is unlocked you might be a little angry. No? I understand the position of all big companies is to play dumb until something either is forgotten or legal channels make them play smart but I do have to say that I did not expect this out of HTC. This post isn't directed at you Sarah but merely my G2 and thousands of others crippled devices. If you could pass this and my prior message to someone higher up that might at least read it and think it over it would be greatly appreciated.
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As many owners of Motorola's Atrix, Atrix HD, Moto E and other models know all too well...
- Motorola has not maintained an organized or regular update cycle for their devices.
- Motorola has repeatedly broken vague promises and hard commitments to update devices.
- This includes cases where the updates were promised on the Motorola website.
- This includes a case where the update was released with details posted on-line but was not actually delivered to the devices stated.
- There has been an instance where an OTA that was a 5.0.x update was displayed as 5.1.x when being installed.
- Some of the affected devices are not service provider branded (just Moto) so Motorola cannot blame the SP as they have in the past.
Picking up on an idea considered when Motorola backed out of their commitment to update the Atrix HD to Lollipop last year, an on-line petition has been created to let Motorola know this is not right. It is focused on the Moto E but is crafted so it can be signed by anyone who has been betrayed by Motorola's failed update commitments or want to see a better way of handling updates. If there is any resolution as a result of this petition, it is unlikely to extend far but we can still let them know about it.
https://www.change.org/p/motorola-f...utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink
Of course feel free to share details about pertinent experiences here in this thread but if you want Motorola to hear it, sign the petition and share the link to it. Also, For the Moto E you can make it known here at the Moto thread where details about the Moto E update are posted https://forums.motorola.com/posts/83391de77a?page=1.
Motorola once was, and should still be, capable of better than this!
------------------------------------
Nov 1, 2016, Greetings:
Motorola. Has finally updated most of the Moto E line to Android Marshmallow. Even some of the devices thought to be left off the update list (such as US retail single sim XT1511) eventually got Marshmallow, although sadly only after many boot-loaders were unlocked. Also, this Change.org petition for Moto E has been automatically closed (naturally expired), which was timely because it serves no purpose anymore, so I'll leave it expired and will ask to have this thread closed. I thank all who participated with signatures or in spirit. It was small in scope but every little bit helps.
One last thing: Although Moto E has been updated, Motorola has not mended it's poor updating ways and have done something similar (even worse by many measures) to yet another device, the Moto G3. There is a petition for that described in this thread: http://forum.xda-developers.com/2015...sprey-t3476321 which I encourage all affected to sign.
You should probably post this in AF also, if you've not already dine so.
Sent from my XT1526 using Tapatalk
starkly_raving said:
You should probably post this in AF also, if you've not already dine so.
Sent from my XT1526 using Tapatalk
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Click to collapse
If you mean Android Forums, I've dug up some links to old posts of mine there (or was it Android Central, I don't recall) but they did not seem like good spots for this. Still, it's a good idea. I should be able to find a suitable place at other forums, and am open to specific recommendations. Also, everyone should feel free to share the link to the petition.
Signed and shared.
IronTechmonkey said:
If you mean Android Forums, I've dug up some links to old posts of mine there (or was it Android Central, I don't recall) but they did not seem like good spots for this. Still, it's a good idea. I should be able to find a suitable place at other forums, and am open to specific recommendations. Also, everyone should feel free to share the link to the petition.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Maybe post on Reddit too? The Android community is pretty big there.
Signed!
Ace42 said:
Maybe post on Reddit too? The Android community is pretty big there.
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Click to collapse
Another good idea. Thanks!
I think you guys shouldnt give a penny to motorola instead of moaning to let them hear your voice. Motorola simply doesnt give the smallest damn about this kind of petitions. Tried and didnt work for numerous times. Dont buy motorola, dont let anyone around you buy motorolas, that is what motorola deserves for their customer relations, marketing and update lies.
Sent from my Nexus 6 using XDA Free mobile app
Semseddin said:
I think you guys shouldnt give a penny to motorola instead of moaning to let them hear your voice. Motorola simply doesnt give the smallest damn about this kind of petitions. Tried and didnt work for numerous times. Dont buy motorola, dont let anyone around you buy motorolas, that is what motorola deserves for their customer relations, marketing and update lies.
Sent from my Nexus 6 using XDA Free mobile app
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Boycott is not a bad idea either but that sort of action may actually be harder to organize than efforts like a petition. Have you ever organized a boycott or a petition about this subject? The action of withholding dollars, and the action of creating a petition are not mutually exclusive. Unfortunately many of us already posses these devices and do not have the option to redirect money to a different device at this point but would still like to do something about it. There are no guarantees, but this type of pressure has been made to work before. For me personally, having first used Motorola gear in the form of gray brick shaped walkie talkies and under-dash radios in the 1980s, and since then always being impressed with whatever Motorola device I encountered across a wide range of hardware types; wanting to see Moto do better is part of this. Also, please do note that discouraging the petition and calling it "moaning" in the very thread where it is shared may not go over well.
I miss IDEN.
nobreak1970 said:
I miss IDEN.
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What am I missing here?
[EDIT] Oh, I see. You're going old school as well. Nice.
IronTechmonkey said:
Boycott is not a bad idea either but that sort of action may actually be harder to organize than efforts like a petition. Have you ever organized a boycott or a petition about this subject? The action of withholding dollars, and the action of creating a petition are not mutually exclusive. Unfortunately many of us already posses these devices and do not have the option to redirect money to a different device at this point but would still like to do something about it. There are no guarantees, but this type of pressure has been made to work before. For me personally, having first used Motorola gear in the form of gray brick shaped walkie talkies and under-dash radios in the 1980s, and since then always being impressed with whatever Motorola device I encountered across a wide range of hardware types; wanting to see Moto do better is part of this. Also, please do note that discouraging the petition and calling it "moaning" in the very thread where it is shared may not go over well.
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Click to collapse
I haven't organized a petition like this before but participated for atrix 4g ics update and xt910 bootloader unlock petitions back in time, the electronic signs were counted by nearly 10k and motorola didnt give the smallest damn about those, just igroned us. I am not here to discourage anyone but i posted just to say dont bother your precious time to tame a liar company in a friendly manner, not worth it. They dont listen to their customers at all. I also like motorola hardware and that is where it ends for me, everything else in motorola just have the stinkny worst smell of all. Their marketing, service team, software team are all the worst but they used to have good engineers, not sure if they still have them looking at their 2015 portfolio can be called at best pathetic.
Hope you guys get the updates you deserve for your devices though. Just dont buy anything else branded motorola in future, this will teach them better how to behave as a responsible company when they dont see money flowing into their vault.
Sent from my Nexus 6 using XDA Free mobile app
Semseddin said:
.....electronic signs were counted by nearly 10k...
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10k? To believe that number I would have to have see proof, including the specific details and target/recipient of the petition.
Semseddin said:
. .. I am not here to discourage anyone but i posted just to say dont bother your precious time...
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Within one 18 word statement you contradict yourself. If you don't like the food being served then don't pull up to the table. Perhaps you could vent by creating an anti petition petition that discourages people from signing petitions, but whatever you do please take it elsewhere.
Not really surprised by this sadly.
IronTechmonkey said:
10k? To believe that number I would have to have see proof, including the specific details and target/recipient of the petition.
Within one 18 word statement you contradict yourself. If you don't like the food being served then don't pull up to the table. Perhaps you could vent by creating an anti petition petition that discourages people from signing petitions, but whatever you do please take it elsewhere.
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Click to collapse
Whatever, live your dream. Here is your numbers. Operation mosh, signed by 16k
https://www.change.org/p/motorola-mobility-inc-unlock-all-smartphone-bootloaders-2
Supportmymoto, no numbers but way above 10k supporters and real media support in a pro way.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=32363139#post32363139
Now, you got ur numbers. Those petitions were for phones in premium range above 400$. Motorola just ignored them. You believe motorola would give a damn about your 50$ phone? Good luck with your dreams.
Sent from my Nexus 6 using XDA Free mobile app
Semseddin said:
...Operation mosh, signed by 16k https://www.change.org/p/motorola-mobility-inc-unlock-all-smartphone-bootloaders-2
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Click to collapse
Impressive that they got 16k and I agree with it in principal but that is a request to unlock bootloader, against which Motorola (and other device manufacturers) are well insulated legally. The same is not necessarily the case for provably failed published commitments to provide a product or service.
Semseddin said:
Supportmymoto, no numbers but way above 10k supporters and real media support in a pro way.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=32363139#post32363139
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A well presented case with good coverage but again, it is for getting an unlocked bootloader which is a steeper uphill battle.
Semseddin said:
....Good luck with your dreams....
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Thank you for the warm wishes, and for the details of the other actions, which I did find informative, helpful, and actually encouraging (although I still have modest hopes).
i am impressed the poll has 80 / 100 right now cool !
I wouldn't have had to rip my hair out today trying to install v5.1 onto my Moto-E if they update with my oem (Telus)
It sucks because i just wanted to run the stock rom
I got it installed but no matter what i tried i couldn't get the provider connection back for calls/txt's
What a drag too ..i swear it started up and ran fast than 5.0.2 (what i went back to)
Thank god i made a TWRP backup before meddling with things..
So hell yeah i voted
edit:
It's totally stupid they only updated *some of the oem's with 5.1
that is a massive slap in the face to those of us who missed out on v5.1 Lollipop !
I won't buy Motorola any more
Just a bit of an update. The petition now has 120 signatures which tells me that people must be sharing the link. Thanks to everyone who has signed and circulated it! I don't know what that really means in terms of the ability to exert some commercial pressure on Motorola but it does indicate that there are many people impacted by this, especially when you consider that there are likely large #s of people using the affected devices who don't participate in forums like this.
When I first gathered contact information for the petition, Motorola Customer Service provided an email address for the CEO that turned out to be incorrect. Fortunately I had others and sent a test email to see which would be rejected as invalid before creating the petition. Considering that experience, I've started searching outside the Moto support track for names and contact information for all of the Moto executives and departments that I can find to widen the target.
Thanks again to all who've signed, circulated, and provided constructive input.
[EDIT] Shared by user hyzteric at the Moto "excuse making forum" https://forums.motorola.com/posts/83391de77a?commentId=1000234#1000234 is news that the Mote E is still being sold which is really low.
http://www.androidcentral.com/motorola-either-update-moto-e-or-stop-selling-it
I already knew this but had not considered the ramifications. They are still sticking it to new purchasers of those devices. Lower than low!
Semseddin said:
.....
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Soooo, although we differ on the merits of a petition we are in the same boat (betrayed by Moto) even if we may disagree on how to navigate it, and I must thank you for the details of the actions to which you referred. While hunting down email addresses of Moto's executives I also found the addresses from one of those previous actions. Between the ones I found that were not on that list and the ones from that list we now have a wider target for the petition.
Seriously - Thanks!
One thing I hope we have going for us this time is that it was/is not illegal for Motorola to decline to share their source code, but what they did this time might actually be illegal or at least actionable in a commercial sense.
Hey guys, is there any news about oreo update for axon 7 ?? There is nothing official from ZTE
Can the beta testers leak the A2017U Oreo B12?
Leaking it is not that easy.
Most of the people that are in the Beta Tester Group haven't unlocked their bootloader before updating.
And since the Update Severs are not available right now (I'm on the G version, don't know right now if they've been shut down on the U also) can't just downgrade to N, unlock their Bootloader and Update back to Oreo to leak it.
There probably some people having an unlocked bootloader and the Oreo Beta installed, but it's unlikely that one of them would be willing enough to leak it.
it will get leaked eventually, some beta tester is just waiting confirmation from ZTE before they releasing it. Just hang on, if you can't then there are couple unofficial oreo rom available... but buggy.
anonymousogre
posted the following on reddit:
I was part of the Oreo Beta. AMA.
Proof:
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I wasn't prepared to do this until only after there was confirmation that ZTE wouldn't have the ban overturned,
but I don't think it really matters anymore. I won't post any additional screenshots, but you can ask me anything.
original link:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Axon7/comments/8gu24g/i_was_part_of_the_oreo_beta_ama/
author: AnonymousOgre
laikexpert said:
I was part of the Oreo Beta. AMA.
Proof:
I wasn't prepared to do this until only after there was confirmation that ZTE wouldn't have the ban overturned,
but I don't think it really matters anymore. I won't post any additional screenshots, but you can ask me anything.
original link:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Axon7/comments/8gu24g/i_was_part_of_the_oreo_beta_ama/
author: AnonymousOgre
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Click to collapse
First of all, please try to mention the author at the beginning of the post like "anonymousogre posted the following on reddit" to avoid confusion.
Now to the reddit post itself,
If anonymousogre really has the latest beta, it's certainly worh to keep an eye out for that. For now he only posted one screenshot and won't post any additional ones which i find weird since he himself said, and i quote:
"I wasn't prepared to do this until only after there was confirmation that ZTE wouldn't have the ban overturned, but I don't think it really matters anymore."
If he really thinks that, then whats stopping him from posting 1 or 2 more screenshots.
Thats why i will stay skeptical for now until there is more info about it.
Sent from my ZTE A2017G running V1.2.0B08 using XDA Labs
laikexpert said:
I was part of the Oreo Beta. AMA.
Proof:
I wasn't prepared to do this until only after there was confirmation that ZTE wouldn't have the ban overturned,
but I don't think it really matters anymore. I won't post any additional screenshots, but you can ask me anything.
original link:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Axon7/comments/8gu24g/i_was_part_of_the_oreo_beta_ama/
author: AnonymousOgre
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Dude, don't you dare start this again...
troy5890 said:
Dude, don't you dare start this again...
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Despite laikexpert not learning and being impatient, i would still suggest checking out that reddit thread
Sent from my ZTE A2017G running V1.2.0B08 using XDA Labs
Just had a chat with a ZTE rep. Sounds like they have just about as much info as we do. Transcript follows:
5/4/2018 Live Assistance
Welcome
Live Help
Clairen P.: “Thank you for contacting ZTE’s Chat customer service, we appreciate your business and value our relationship. At the end of this session you will receive a brief three question satisfaction survey on the support you received. Please take the time to provide your feedback on your experience today. Thank you.”
Me: Hi!
Clairen P.: Hi, Mark, this is Claire.
Clairen P.: I see you have a question about updates, correct?
Me: Hi Claire. Yes, I was hoping my Axon 7 would be receiving an update to Oreo. I know it was in Beta a few months ago, but it looks like the Beta program is closed and now the ZTE update servers are down
Me: I was just wondering if you could give me any information on what to expect!
Clairen P.: I see you are interested in the Oreo update for your Axon 7, and I apologize for the inconvenience.
Clairen P.: It's still in beta testing and we haven't been told when it will be release. I do apologize for your frustration.
Clairen P.: As far as the update servers go, we appreciate your concern, and we are currently working on a solution.
Me: Yes, it's very frustrating. And with the news about sanctions, ZTE being banned from selling in the USA, etc, I'm concerned we'll never see any more updates!
Clairen P.: I agree!
Clairen P.: I recommend you check out our Z Community forum, that would be where you would find out first. https://community.zteusa.com.
Me: Is there any way to be added to the beta program?
Clairen P.: I apologize, it has been closed for quite some time.
Me: I was a beta tester for Nougat, and I thought I'd be invited to join the Oreo program
Clairen P.: I don't know how they choose beta testers, I wish I could help you with that, Mark!
Clairen P.: That must be very frustrating for you.
Me: Yeah. I'm tempted to unlock the phone and install some unofficial software - but I don't want to lose my warranty!
Clairen P.: I agree with you on that! I wouldn't either!
Me: Do you have any idea when the official Oreo is coming?
Clairen P.: The Passport 2 Warranty is such a great deal! We haven't been told when the official Oreo is coming, we find out from
Z Community ourselves.
Me: But you're pretty sure we'll get it someday?
Clairen P.: I apologize for the inconvenience and the frustration you're experiencing, Mark. I don't know, we haven't been told.
Me: Ok. Thanks for talking with me, even if there's no news to share.
Clairen P.: My pleasure! Anything else I can help you with, Mark?
Me: Hope y'all are doing okay! I'm sure it's a confusing time to work for ZTE!
Clairen P.: At the end of the chat, I'd appreciate it if you would take a quick 3 question survey about your experience today. The survey will begin when you disconnect from our chat. Thank you!
Clairen P.: We're doing fine, and we're quite busy. It's pretty normal here.
Clairen P.: I hope we get a resolution soon!
Clairen P.: At the end of the chat, I'd appreciate it if you would take a quick 3 question survey about your experience today. The survey will begin when you disconnect from our chat. Thank you!
Me: Yep, no problem. Have a good one!
You have disconnected.
I think it's over about oreo
Sent from my ZTE A2017G using XDA Labs
houssemtouati said:
I think it's over about oreo
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I don't know about Oreo but I hope not cause at least the OTA servers work now cause I got the B35 firmware update from January I think.
P. S
I know the update is old but I kept putting of until the last minute and after the whole ZTE mess I thought I missed my chance to update.
I tried chatting with ZTE again today. No information whatsoever. They suggested checking the ZTE community forums because "sometimes info leaks there" but literally knew nothing else. I told them we were disappointed that we didn't receive the update while so many competitors' devices have, and that they couldn't even tell us if we would ever receive it. I also mentioned that I will be buying a new phone from someone who is not ZTE in the near future because of their lack of communication and updates, despite the fact that I love the Axon 7 and would like to use it longer.
emepher said:
I tried chatting with ZTE again today. No information whatsoever. They suggested checking the ZTE community forums because "sometimes info leaks there" but literally knew nothing else. I told them we were disappointed that we didn't receive the update while so many competitors' devices have, and that they couldn't even tell us if we would ever receive it. I also mentioned that I will be buying a new phone from someone who is not ZTE in the near future because of their lack of communication and updates, despite the fact that I love the Axon 7 and would like to use it longer.
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I don't think they care too much about your disappointment after they were offline for like 4 months and their employees were fed by charity
Am I looking at this situation in an unrealistic way?
Choose an username... said:
I don't think they care too much about your disappointment after they were offline for like 4 months and their employees were fed by charity
Am I looking at this situation in an unrealistic way?
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Click to collapse
Thanks for the input. Surely they don't want customers then, right.
Well one guy on reddit got some news from zte facebook group. Apparently we will get oreo
https://www.reddit.com/r/Axon7/comments/8ysg8p/oreo_confirmation_from_zte_fb_group_repost/
emepher said:
Thanks for the input. Surely they don't want customers then, right.
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So they'll get customers if they make an update for a 2 year old device that everyone moved on from already?
Don't get me wrong. I have it, and I want the update. But the Axon 7 is probably less than 0.1% of their income. They have to deal with losing credibility on their connectivity business, then also keep going with their myriad of US carrier budget phones.
Honestly speaking, how many people cares about not getting updates on their phone after a year, let alone two? The average layman presses Ok when the update notification pops up, no questions asked. ZTE has been kind enough while they didn't have a ****storm ongoing. Now they are probably shorthanded, lost credibility and paid huge fines.
what's true is that an Oreo update would be good press for the (i hope) upcoming axon 9.
Choose an username... said:
...
The average layman presses Ok when the update notification pops up, no questions asked.
...
what's true is that an Oreo update would be good press for the (i hope) upcoming axon 9.
...
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yes indeed it would be good press!
I don´t know about the situation in the US, but in European countries there is an increasing number of people, that care about latest security updates, which leads to the decision to buy devices that are more `reliable´ in this sense ...
It does also concern me now that I use my phone with personal plus work SIM.
Work is multinational and implementing administration for mobile devices, tied in with work Microsoft accounts. No mods for me. I'm ignoring it so far but a time will come when there will be questions asked of the Aus branch, but I must keep the phone compliant or start using the Nexus 5X I was given...... It's got no SD card slot, only 16Gb of storage, a smaller and crap screen and only 2Gb of RAM. Not keen to carry and keep two phones updated and charged for daily duties.
Choose an username... said:
So they'll get customers if they make an update for a 2 year old device that everyone moved on from already? .
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Yes, if you think in terms longer than 1-2 years that is how it works. Many of us won't buy LG devices anymore because they promised updates then cut them off short. I want 3 years out of a device. I take care of my phones so this isn't realistic. They cost as much as laptops now so I see no reason they shouldn't last as long.
Choose an username... said:
Don't get me wrong. I have it, and I want the update. But the Axon 7 is probably less than 0.1% of their income. They have to deal with losing credibility on their connectivity business, then also keep going with their myriad of US carrier budget phones.
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This isn't just about one phone it is about trusting them as a brand. They have no identity or customer base here (USA), so if they want to be strictly a low-end garbage brand, that's fine, I won't buy any more of their products. I don't think that's the case though. If they want to grow globally as a brand they need to have flagship-level products (think "halo" cars in that industry - they're expensive and don't sell in huge numbers but they build brand prestige) and need top-end support to go with their hardware. The Axon 7 2-year warranty was a start, their websites aren't as bad as some competitors, they've engaged in at least some dialog with fringe enthusiasts, and their online chat folks are friendly and efficient, although they've been unable to answer my questions a couple of times. They've obviously got some of us on board but the mobile phone market and other electronics spaces are crowded, so ZTE will have to continue to do better if they want to be big players outside of China.
I'm not expecting anything, but I am hopeful of some news soon, before my trigger finger gets itchy while I'm gawking at the Oneplus 6 or something.
RobboW said:
It does also concern me now that I use my phone with personal plus work SIM.
Work is multinational and implementing administration for mobile devices, tied in with work Microsoft accounts. No mods for me. I'm ignoring it so far but a time will come when there will be questions asked of the Aus branch, but I must keep the phone compliant or start using the Nexus 5X I was given...... It's got no SD card slot, only 16Gb of storage, a smaller and crap screen and only 2Gb of RAM. Not keen to carry and keep two phones updated and charged for daily duties.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Are you talking about Outlook with Office 365 account with Intune Company Portal? Leaked Oreo and AEX with Magisk passes complaince checks