Related
Hi,
I need to read CellID and RxLev by my program. I have no idea how to do this. Could anyone to help me? Thanks
Unfortunately it's not been implemented by HTC, so the simple answer is no. You could try and use the SMS system directly through RIL, although because Cell based positioning is quite a hot topic and nobody has yet done it, I'd guess it't not possible.
Anybody know if XDAII has a working API for this?
Just use tracelogger, pwd is htc, choose MMI + Event then run the tracelogviewer provided by the XDA developers site you'll get your CID and rx Level
andyclap said:
Unfortunately it's not been implemented by HTC, so the simple answer is no.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is I would guess why RIL_GetCellTowerInfo always returns 0x80004001, which I belive means not implemented. (XDA I) But I might be using the wrong call... ??
If this information is available on the XDA II, then there must be programmatically a way through RIL, so either I am using the wrong call, or RIL has been fixed, or something else I haven't thought of... Any ideas?
Ben.
Yeah, it would be great if the XDAII supported this (Cell based min-GPS!), so does anybody know for definite the scope of the new RIL on the XDAII?
andyclap said:
Cell based min-GPS
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You read my mind!
I think this might be why this information is so hard to find. This data, once calibrated (which using, say, TomTom, would not be hard) is a considerable asset, to which the various phone companies are trying to protect. Which sounds like a challange to me...
Ben
Yeah - O2 at least are marketing this info as a developer program, with a lookup charge "from 5p per lookup". What a bargain, considering the device already has the information (though it really applies to mobile phones that don't have SDK access).
Don't they realise that if they helped us create an app for them to do this and, say, link to multimap.com, it'd be a killer app and they'd sell hundreds more XDAs.
Good idea. They would get the GPRS service charge for the multimap lookup as well. Although I think the cell id is too course. But some part of the phone knows far more accuratelly where it is, so that it knows when to change cell. Although this is not yet an area I know much about.
I belive, if you jump through enough hoops, O2 gives grants for programms which enhance the XDA, there's a project for somebody.... If anybody can work out how to get the s***ding cell id out of the XDA
ben
Yeah - O2 at least are marketing this info as a developer program, with a lookup charge "from 5p per lookup". What a bargain, considering the device already has the information (though it really applies to mobile phones that don't have SDK access).
Don't they realise that if they helped us create an app for them to do this and, say, link to multimap.com, it'd be a killer app and they'd sell hundreds more XDAs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The idea of the Location APi is not as good as what we want. The idea is that an office queries O2 servers for the cell location of the target unit, for which they charge the office (end-user). O2 are looking for software solutions that draw on this to provide added content so that some poor sap carries on paying 5p a hit to get back the rough cell based location of a unit. Bloody expensive as a tracker or SatNav. Might as well just stick a GPS unit on the back & send that data back via GPRS - cheaper!
O2 actually have a website with the info on their cell sites on it BUT they have 8500 of them at least, so getting all that info out is a hard task.
Site is Here
We need to crack getting Cell ID, Signal Strength, Nearest Other Towers, Nearest OT Signal Strength + I daresay a few more before applying that to a database, after which we could probably have a device that told us our position to within 100m, which we could then send back via GPRS, thus not allowing the network to charge 5p a hit.
That's why the Cell Location database is not available - they stand to make/lose too much revenue.
Wonder how much the database is worth?
It wouldn't be too difficult to scrape the site - while it gives no true positional information, it can return a list of cell towers within a radius (upto 5km ish) of a known tower, with their distance: we could triangulate three sets of this information to get the real locations of towers. Once these locations are known, we can recursively triangulate from them to eventually get all the data for the UK at least.
But, the main thing to do, as you say, is to find a programmatic way of getting the current cellId, signal strength, and preferably as much information about other local towers too to further refine the result.
Hmmm, just thought - as the XDA developers here are "jolly nice and clever people", they have supplied the source to tracelogview. It wouldn't be too difficult to modify this to scan for tower information messages and do the appropriate things. It just means that the users have to enable tracelog manually, though perhaps we could send some keyboard messages to start it up and enter the password. It's hacky, but it just might work!
Might have a go at this tomorrow!
Overview of Location APi as offered by O2 - taken from Source02 website
The first of our APIs to be delivered is the Location API which has been developed by our partner Redknee.
The service enables you to create and sell innovative new applications and services based on a mobile phone user's location.
The O2 service is charged from 5p a lookup and provides the longitude and latitude co-ordinates of the centre of the cell site sector the phone is located within. Cell sites are typically split into three sectors and range in size from several hundred metres in urban areas up to 15 kilometres in more remote regions.
Third parties are able to develop location-enabled applications utilising real time location data from the O2 UK network. Application owners will have the opportunity to validate their applications in a test environment prior to connecting to the live O2 UK network. Location information will only be passed to third parties who have a contract with O2 and have the consent of the end user to determine his/her location.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I may be wrong, but...
I belive the telco and the phone have a different idea of where the device is, as they plot the position of the device using different mechanisms and for different uses. They use this when they have to contact a phone to send an incomming call. This application is making use of the telco's permanent database of the location of all their devices. This is easy money for the telco.
We do not have access to this data, and the positional information we can get will be in a different format, accept for the Cell ID. We will have to infer the position of the XDA from RIL, TAPI, AT, using the data listed in previous postings. As was suggested, getting an idea of the strength of local transmitters, and calculating a position. Which in it's self may be a real challange, as there is not likelly to be a linear relationship between the strength of the transmitter and the distance to it.
It may be likelly that the cell size (~200m, -> ~15km) is the nearest we'll ever get. I note that people in Dover very often get routed through transmitters in France due to the cliffs on the coast of England. In this case, any meaningful positional data is getting more unlikelly.
PS, can any kind person with an XDAII tell me whether the RILL call:
HRESULT RIL_GetCellTowerInfo(HRIL hRil);
Returns something other than 80004001?
Ben
PS, can any kind person with an XDAII tell me whether the RILL call:
HRESULT RIL_GetCellTowerInfo(HRIL hRil);
Returns something other than 80004001?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Unfortunatelly this still returns '80004001 Unsupported' on XDA II.
But the RIL_GetSignalQuality does return valid data when connected to GPRS, unlike XDA I, so some things are getting better...
Ben
Hi all,
i just saw a programm that uses the cell ID and convert this one °, but it just works with received data from any handy via Irda or cable.
So if u want to take a look visit (german site):
http://www.wolfgang-back.com/navigauss.php
That works but it would be the first way, to use the XDA cellID instead of external data...perhaps any idea on this?
With greetings from germany
Harry
Cell ID
Guys u can get the cell id using java.
The cell ID is memorized in the sim card and the mobile phone compares always whether the CID he is receiving from the signal, is the same one memorized in the sim card.
If yes the mobile does nothing. If not the mobile phone updates the CID in the sim card. this is done almost every 5 seconds.
Now we need the API !!! and maybe the AID of the sim applet. :roll:
Once more,
could the following be a walkable way?:
1. cell-Id could be shown (tracelog and traceview says how)
2. If that is fact, then it is with calculating gauss-to- longitude/latidude (visit www.nobbi.com) makable to view the actually position.
3. The last step it would be, to bring Information like longitude/latidude in ° to the standard gps-format (it is known or free i think) and send it via comm1 to all navigation-software.
4. So if this all is nonsens tell me because i am not really a programmer ( my code would be as fine as my english is :-((
bye Harry
Hiwi said:
1. cell-Id could be shown (tracelog and traceview says how)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's right, but cell id says nothing about position.
2. If that is fact, then it is with calculating gauss-to- longitude/latidude (visit www.nobbi.com) makable to view the actually position.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
see comment 1. Only O2 Germany transmits GK/coordinates over Cell Broadcast....
3. The last step it would be, to bring Information like longitude/latidude in ° to the standard gps-format (it is known or free i think) and send it via comm1 to all navigation-software.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If 1. and 2. would be possible this is still a problem since most (all) GPS-Software only accept input from COM-Port (you have to emulate a COM-Port ... not trivial)
4. So if this all is nonsens tell me because i am not really a programmer ( my code would be as fine as my english is :-((
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
:wink:
John
Having written a DLL to get the CellID from the XDA, and then comparing the result with the O2 cell tower map info as described by 'Puff the Magic Wagon' on Nov 4, I find there is a discrepancy of 10000
e.g. in a clients office in Blackburn
Cell ID returned = 3AAF( Hex) = 15023 (Dec)
From www.webmap.o2.co.uk Higher Audley Cell = 5023
This seems to be the case for all cells I have tried.
There also seems to be some Cell ID's which I cannot reconcile with the o2 map results.
mjgermain
The problem you've encountered arrises from the fact that there are more than 9999 CSR (Cell Site References) that are registered with the RA.
O2 identify cells in the following way.
AXXXX
Where A = the direction the transmitter is facing (directional transmitters)
(roughly)
1=North
2=South East
3=West
then 4, 5, 6 & sometimes 7, 8, 9 depending on how many transmitters on the aerial - always in 3s
So in your example 1XXXX, the transmitter is facing north (so should be to the south of you) but depending on that aerial (yours only has 3)
We then get to the XXXX
I believe that CSRs are allocated by the government and are a 5 figure number. Therefore CSRs upto 9999 are able to be placed quite simply.
15023 is correct.
However, what happens when transmitter number 10001 comes along? According to O2 numbering system, that 0001 number is already allocated. So they have to use another method of identifying cells.
Somewhere else in the country there might be transmitter that IDs as 15023 :shock: :?
So having a database of CellIDs and transmitter numbers is not all that is needed, the additional "identifier" is required and together that gives the CSR which has a lat/long applied to it.
The identifier is the LAC or Local Area Code
So AXXXX + LAC = CSR
There are still a few anomolies in this as well it would seem. Fill-in transmitters and "private" or "mini" transmitters the likely cause.
I had access to the O2 CellID db when I was last working & we were able to create a basic Cell tracking system, but the company went titsup.com before we were able to factor in LAC and signal strength etc.
Does your program work on XDA2?
I was told by my friend who works at Sprint today that they will be unlocking the GPS in Quarter 4 of this year.
She said that originally they did not unlock it as they were having issues with the hardware and software, but are prepping to unlock it soon to us.
Sorry if this has been put out there already, but thought I would share what I heard. hopeful anyway, huh?
Is this guy a reliable source of info? Or is he a rep who hears stuff through the grapevine like the rest of us? (I've heard some crazy misunderstood info coming from people who "work for sprint")
Over at ppcgeeks.com someone dissasembled their Mogul and the general conclusion was that the GPS had been disabled via hardware, although they admit they're not sure.
The rumor also was that it would be available to us with the Rev A update due to come out soon. Although no one knew for sure where this info came from. Could be someone made it up, wishful thinking.
So, yes, this rumor has been around, but we're still waiting for someone to actually confirm it.
Honestly, I'll beleive it when I see it.
Dishe said:
Is this guy a reliable source of info? Or is he a rep who hears stuff through the grapevine like the rest of us? (I've heard some crazy misunderstood info coming from people who "work for sprint")
Over at ppcgeeks.com someone dissasembled their Mogul and the general conclusion was that the GPS had been disabled via hardware, although they admit they're not sure.
The rumor also was that it would be available to us with the Rev A update due to come out soon. Although no one knew for sure where this info came from. Could be someone made it up, wishful thinking.
So, yes, this rumor has been around, but we're still waiting for someone to actually confirm it.
Honestly, I'll beleive it when I see it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This person is a software engineer at Sprint, and she said that the reason they didn't have it unlocked in the beginning was due to a hardware/software conflict, but that it will be unlocked in an upcoming ROM update. She said that Sprint had announced it somewhere internally.
I have a few contacts in sprint, I'll try verifying this tommorow
From what I understand, the Mogul has A-GPS. This is the same GPS that allows them to find you if you make an emergency call. It does not work off sattelites but rather from cell towers.
On the bright side, it shares the same Qualcomm 7200 chip that the Kaiser will use.
Some maintain that the Kaiser has built in GPS, others claim it has no satellite antenna and requires an external antenna.
Sprint originally advertised the phone as having GPS. Now that has been removed from their advertisement.
It will be ineresting to see what will happen with the evdo rev. a upgrade later this year.
rambo6 said:
From what I understand, the Mogul has A-GPS. This is the same GPS that allows them to find you if you make an emergency call. It does not work off sattelites but rather from cell towers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly. The bottom line from what I understand is that the Mogul does not have the built-in hardware to do full GPS that will work with independent mapping software (Google, etc).
[RANT]This is getting a bit old - people claiming that A-GPS does not work off satellites.
Please do some research before posting this type of mis-information.
A-GPS is Assisted GPS. It uses information from the cellular network to ASSIST the GPS for faster TTFF.
And the Mogul uses a different chipset than the Kaiser. One uses the 7200, while the other 7500.[/RANT]
Ok... so now that you ranted... is it your opinion that the Mogul will or will not be able to do full GPS?
And actually.... A-GPS doesn't directly work off of the satellites. Since it takes a long time for a cell phone device to download the positioning data from the GPS satellites, what the A-GPS system does is let the A-GPS servers at the cell towers download and accumulate the data, the cell phones then talk to the A-GPS servers to get the data (which happens within seconds).
When A-GPS is enabled, would it have the possibility to work with Mobile GMaps ? Or is the Java still restricted?
Don't we have A-GPS already enabled? Isn't that the little GPS icon in the phone dialer? I know I have the option to turn it off/on in the phone settings just like all other agps handsets.
If something is going to be "enabled" with a new update, that means it will most likely be real standalone GPS.
TC1, no one knows that for sure. It was speculated.
I AM POSTING THIS FOR THE LAST TIME
The Mogul has the Qualcomm msm7500 as its cpu. BUILT INTO the cpu is the gpsone chipset. This is able to achieve AGPS as well as GPS. It runs in 4 different modes. To have the serial link to work with applications the chipset must be run in standalone mode.
It is on the damn phone as it is part of the cpu! It is currently not in standalone mode so there is no way to access the chip. The only true thing up in the air is whether or not the phone can obtain a satellite lock in standalone mode.
Dishe said:
Don't we have A-GPS already enabled? Isn't that the little GPS icon in the phone dialer? I know I have the option to turn it off/on in the phone settings just like all other agps handsets.
If something is going to be "enabled" with a new update, that means it will most likely be real standalone GPS.
TC1, no one knows that for sure. It was speculated.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Correct, like almost every modern cell phone, A-GPS is enabled. There is no debate there.
I agree with you regarding speculation on the "stand-alone GPS" aspect. I've never seen definitive info from HTC that says yes or no on this subject. If there is real info regarding this, some links would be nice.
HTC's site says:
It is widely rumored that this phone has a GPS chip that has been disabled. Will there be a hack or workaround to enable GPS capabilities?
Answer: Not likely, it is AGPS which requires a connected call to get data location.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sonix6 said:
HTC's site says:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thats from their wiki site, so its not necessarily true
/me keeps fingers crossed
This would be good news. I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for this.
gpsone (in most all msm chipsets including kaiser and mogul):
How gpsOne Works:
The gpsOne technology functions in four different modes of operation. Chosen automatically or specified by software, the
four modes are Standalone GPS, Mobile Station (MS)-based, MS-assisted and MS-assisted/Hybrid. In the A-GPS modes,
gpsOne technology utilizes assistance data from a location server in the wireless network in combination with A-GPS circuitry
and software in the wireless device.
Note: The common term used by standards bodies for the handset/terminal device in CDMA2000 is "Mobile Station" (MS) and in WCDMA (UMTS)/GPRS/GSM/HSDPA/EDGE is
“User Equipment” (UE). For simplicity in this document, references to the handset/terminal will be "MS," but this use implies both MS and UE.
Standalone GPS: The GPS receiver calculates a position without using any assistance data and without a connection to
the wireless network.
MS-Based: The GPS receiver calculates the position using assistance data from a location server to increase cold-start
sensitivity and reduce the start time for an initial position calculation.
MS-Assisted: The GPS receiver uses assistance data from a location server to make measurements related to its distance
from the GPS satellites, then sends this information to the location server where the position is calculated. This mode also
increases cold start sensitivity and reduces the start time for an initial position calculation.
MS-Assisted/Hybrid: Wireless network information is added to GPS measurements as part of the position calculation by
the location server, integrating the relative strengths of GPS information and available wireless network location information
for increased positioning reliability in difficult GPS environments.
In assisted operation, a gpsOne-enabled handset receives
a small “assistance data” message from a network location
server using standardized protocols
• The handset then reads information from GPS satellites to
measure its distance from all the satellites it can see (called
“ranging” information).
• The handset then uses this ranging information to create a
position “fix,” or sends the ranging information back to the
server where it can be combined with network information
to produce an even better fix.
• gpsOne also operates in Standalone mode, without requiring
any assistance data from the network
straight from the gpsOne document.
interesting indeed... question is, will Sprint release firmware that allows it to run in standalone mode?
I suppose the truth is, even if it doesn't, someone can figure out how to enable it with some sort of hack eventually since its just software controlled according to this document.
has anyone played with this reg key?
\HKCU\ControlPanel\PhoneExtendFunction\CDMA\GPSOneSetting = 0
Edit: the value does not contain a space between "GPSOne" and "Setting", but vbulletin modifies my text when i post....
I don't know if this info helps or not... I spoke to a HTC TS and they told me the 6800 has GPS but is sprint decision to enable it or not. He also told me that it can be unlock but sprint is the only one with the code and he can not provide me with that info.
New poster old reader, may be found some info.
I found Many info that may me can help somebodies about the msm 7500 (gpsOne technologie)...It is hard to know what to believe 'cause half/half
people say that this is impossible, and the other half say that gonna happen soon. I think that we should make our own idea by our own knowledge . I found many topic on many forum (htc, gpsunderground,here...ask me if interressed) One Qualcomm offical site i've got pdf about msm chips, and gpsOne tech... (Snap track location service for gpsOne may be a good start point to invest)
Interessing link's:
FCC test repport for tita100 (titan) (That include plane mode settings):
https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas...lledFromFrame=N&application_id=391628&fcc_id=
Here it seem to be codes:
http://www.wlt.net.cn/index0/FD-800/pdf/CNI FD-800 gpsOne Menual ver1 0_0117.pdf
Similar:
http://www.wlt.net.cn/index0/FD-800/pdf/FD-800_Application_Guide ver1 0(1).pdf
And found other about SDK from Qualcomm API's seem to be aivalaible to third party dev. Also seem to be hard to be registred as dev. But hope...
And if internal budies have code it is just a time question before a solution.
So i wish that i'm not making more mistake or false info...if tell me.
And for gps freak who will tell that different anthenna needed, diffrent frequencies for GPS...see the end of the document FD-800 manual (2nd link).
So thank for this helpfull forum, forgive my poor english expression, and lack of programming knoledge , my is disignig pcb, and electrical pannels, but not to programme them's( not enough )...
Well, was talking to a friend earlier, and she told me government started to ask phone companies to put in GPS chips into cell phones and 99% phones after 2005 have GPS chip build in, so when we call 911, the government can know where we are... at first I though it's not possible, because if is it so, then there won't be phones that actually said "Build in GPS" ? so she said the phone companies just want to earn more$... and yeah I knew how cheap a GPS chips are nowadays... anyway even I though it was a joke or something, I look into it more, and GPS chips build into a cell phone by factory, required by law, seems to be true...
Read it on few other web page saying "Cell phone companies didn't originally want to put GPS receivers into cell phones. But several years ago, the Federal Communications Commission required them to come up with a way to locate their customers for rescue workers and 911 calls."
and "There is a small GPS unit built into the phone, This unit uses the GPS system to determine you location. When you call the cellular 911 operator this information is sent to the 911 system. Below is an Excerpt from the Nov 19th 2005 Milwaukee Journal that dedscribes the system and it's limitations.
Even in counties that will be able to locate cell phone callers to 911, a variety of factors, including the location of wireless towers, tall buildings, bad weather and even sunspots, can affect the system's accuracy, said Richard Tuma, director of emergency preparedness for Waukesha County, the first county in the state to implement the technology.
Two technologies, which work together in most areas, are used to notify 911 call centers of the location of cell phone callers.
One uses global positioning system technology, in which GPS-equipped phones receive satellite signals and relay the location coordinates to the 911 center receiving the call.
The other technology uses three cell towers to "triangulate" the coordinates of the 911 caller.
The GPS system is more accurate, Tuma said, and is capable of locating a caller within 50 meters (about 165 feet) 67% of the time. The triangulation technology can locate a caller within 150 meters 67% of the time, he said. Those standards have been mandated by the Federal Communications Commission.
But each system has its flaws, Tuma said.
To get an accurate GPS location, a caller needs to have a properly equipped cell phone and be standing outside. Being inside any structure, to some degree even a car, can skew the coordinates being picked up from the satellites, he said.
"The GPS system needs a line of sight to the satellites," he said.
Cloudy, rainy and snowy weather also can interfere with both technologies, and nearby tall buildings can throw off the triangulation system, Tuma said."
And I also see this software mologogo can unlock some of the GPS in phones in order to use it as a tracking device...
But since the Universal is made in the middle of 2005, it doesn't have the hidden GPS build in Chip, right?
Thanks
I think the triangulation method is more common for locating callers. The Uni doesn't have built in GPS, if it did they'd certainly advertise it as an additional feature!
Bad news for you - your parents fooled you when they told you Santa is bringing the gifts on xmas.
Don't believe in anything what's written in the web.
there is a slot but no radio rom
Hi SOG,
the Universal hardware has a slot free were you could solder in a GPS chip. The missing chip is a RFR6250. This builds up the GPS backend for MSM6250 chipset.
But there will be no chance to use it, even with the chip soldered.
What is missing, is an ugly hacked radio rom to access the hardware in a proper way.
Regards
Highc
I see! thanks for all the input guys~ I am gonna try to install trackme and see how it goes with my Universal and BT GPS
I use Google Maps
on a few devices. Universal is the only one that does not provide the current location, reads 'feature is unavailable for your device' or something along those lines. So current location has to be entered manually if one wants to get directions to and fro.
enigma1nz said:
on a few devices. Universal is the only one that does not provide the current location, reads 'feature is unavailable for your device' or something along those lines. So current location has to be entered manually if one wants to get directions to and fro.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have no problem with google maps and my GPS (although I have sto set manually)
I have no complaints with my gps. I have tomtom. I only need to start my tomtom software and take out my gps device out of my glovebox and press on. They connect automaticly with each other (eg turning on bt and connecting). Im only using gps in my car. So really i maybe only waste 10 seconds out of my life with my jasjar not having gps...
Yesterday, our dog ran off in the woods. She was OK, but she got too far then couldn't find us, and the puppy kicked in and she started running..
They have GPS dog collars, but they either require a (fairly large) monthly fee, or, like the Garmin ones, are $600+. I only want one to snap on her collar when we go in the woods, so that if she does run off again or ever get hurt, I can find her.
BUT: I want to track it on my phone (since it's with me all the time and I get service everywhere). Is there such a device?
I would be interested in this, too.
Me too, but for my girlfriend ;-)
She calls me serveral times per week lost so I bought her a Garmin for Xmas but she is techno-challenged. Ok she is not the sharpest tool in the shed but she is the sweetest ;-)
No such thing as a terrestrial GPS transmitter for public use.
Our phones, Garmin and TomTom, et al, devices, are GPS receivers.
The geosynchronous GPS satellites are the transmitters.
The mobile units, such as Garmins and our phones, listen for data streams from multiple satellites (that is why the more satellites "seen", the more accurate your location) and cell towers (in the case of smarphones). All these transmitters, which are pre-programmed with their location information, are saying "this is me and this is where I am". The reciever takes this information and calculates the mobile unit's location relative to the transmitters. Since the transmitters are telling the world where they are and the receiver has figured out where it is relative to them it can conclude "this is where I am".
The reason the "trackers" require a subscription is that, once the mobile unit figures out its location based upon its calculations from the satellite data streams, it sends its location to the service which makes it available to the subscriber.
I don't know what dedicated doggy trackers cost, but several cellphones are available from providers with a service like this. ATT has FamilyMap
https://familymap.wireless.att.com/finder-att-family/howWorks.htm
Verizon has Family Locator
http://support.vzw.com/clc/features/data_services/family_locator.html
and you have your imagination.
****************************************************************
"EDIT" UPDATE (7 oct. 2010)
Well you dont need to go actually much further then this first post!
Things got out of context over here, furthermore I decided to give
my external gps receiver a break and run some more tests with
the internal one of my SGS.
And the results I got were much better than any
other phone I tested before. Except the ones with a build-in SirfstarIII chipset.
If you have Gps issues,Just move on to this thread:
2nd edit (20 Oct, 2010): That thread was removed without any warning or explanation so I posted the videos in another thread:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=8903056#post8903056
END EDIT
RCinFLA said:
Like to share my experience as cellphone chipset designer and my dealing with various parties involved with GPS in phones.
Many of the issues are caused by business interests involved and there are quite a few parties plying to control location based services revenue stream.
SUPL, secure user plane protocol AGPS was created by network operators interest in mine, with the objective of putting them in the controlling position when it comes to extracting revenue from location based applications on their network.
Control plane AGPS is a general system where network operator independent entities can create a assist server along with possible services offering. They can encrypt their access to allow only subcribed (paying) users to access their service. The network operators has little control over this scheme.
With SUPL, in most cases, network operators outsource the location server function. Network operator hold location of their cell tower, as a total database, in close confidence. The network tower locations are also very dynamic over time. I believe the AGPS contractors don't get reliable and timely updates from the network operators.
Then there are third party business like 'Skyhook' which is trying to work around the network operator roadblocks by establishing a 'ponzi scheme' server database. If your phone has a good GPS location lock and detects a WiFi network, Skyhook's background app will have your phone send a message to their server reporting the SSID of the WiFi and its location. They then sell their server AGPS service to other companies, like Motorola, for inclusion in their phone software. Motorola may run into conflict with network operators. A network operator might refuse to buy a Motorola phone model with Skyhook installed on it. I noticed from the Captivate forum that the ATT version of Galaxy S has Skyhook capability.
Google is the 900 pound gorilla and is trying to wrestle control of location based services from network operators.
Finally there are the GPS chip manufacturers. Almost all of them have an AGPS server scheme of their own and try to promote it. The frontend processing (up to recovery of raw 50 bps satellite data) has unique hardware and firmware that are considered proprietary by the GPS chip manufacturer. In most cases a phone manufacturers like Samsung or Motorola are not allowed to have the software source code for this firmware or information on the actual interface protocol to the GPS chip. They are given a bundled binary file that the phone manufacturer software just dumps to the GPS chip at startup.
It is now up to the phone manufacturer to implement the GPS chip and antenna systems (along with WiFI, Bluetooth, Near Field Comm, and multi-band cellular) and provide software interfaces and drivers necessary to run the GPS function.
For size and cost reasons most recent GPS chips rely on the main application processor within the phone to actually do the GPS fix calculations. The software for this is provided by the GPS chip supplier but it must be coordinated with the particular applications processor chip used by the phone. It must share processing time slicing with the apps processor and work with operating system software resources such as RAM and ROM management running on the phone.
This is the first obsticle as most of the GPS chip suppliers have little expertise in the OS's that may be used (like Android or Symbian). The phone manufacturer usually has to provide help to create and debug the GPS driver software but the drivers are responsible/owned by the GPS chip supplier. There can be unique hardware/software interfaces that must be dealt with, like providing GPS TCXO calibration and cellular corrected frequency timebase to the GPS chip.
Then there is the OS's GPS interface. There can be translation software layers involved here. One such interface is based on GPS NMEA protocol but with additional hooks for things unique to phone operation like battery saver power strobing, and the complicated Secure User Plane or Control plane interface.
The AGPS system design landscape is litered with intellectual properties (patents) by many parties. Qualcomm is a dominate player here since their aquistion of SnapTrak company years ago. Royalties are paid to Qualcomm for every WCDMA phone sold, not only in AGPS area, but on basic CDMA patents used in a UMTS (Wideband CDMA) phones.
Now as to Samsung Galaxy S implementation of Broadcom GPS.
I think there is a lot of evidence that Samsung had early issues with the GPS antenna contact hardware. This has probably been corrected on recently manufactured phones.
I think the firmware supplied by Broadcom has the bandwidth of the correlators tighted down to provide greater sensitivity. This is great as long as there is a very good AGPS system to provide initial satellite ephemeris data. Without a good AGPS network providing satellite information the initial search and lock can take a very long time with narrow bandwidth frequency bins.
I have not seen evidence with my experience that my two Vibrants are receiving any reliable AGPS information from the T-Mobile network. They do seem to get rough Almanac satellite info from Google or other third party apps. These may be based on WiFi detection more then T-Mobile cell tower locations.
In LBStest I noticed that GPS Operational Mode has been set to 'Standalone'. I interpret this to mean AGPS is deactived. I don't see any difference when I switch to MS based assist, and clear the GPS saved memory to prevent it from prejudicing time to first fix lock test. Switching SUPL server to supl.google.com and port 7276 (with MS based operational setting) just seems to make my phone lockup for short periods of time.
Once phone does get full lock on satellites its performance is quite good. (my two Vibrant's were purchased in early Feb 2011). It rivals my Garmin SiRFstar III based GPS unit in locked on sensitivity while inside a building.
I think the AGPS system issues will get worked out over time.
The Qualcomm based CDMA2000 systems (like Verizon) will likely have better initial coordination on AGPS system operation. CDMA2000 also provides network timebase directly compatible with GPS.
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All this nagging about GPS.....that it is not working in many devices and it's working in other many.....and of course I am talking about those ones who still would go for ONLINE gps navigation.....
In my humble opinion, what you guys should be asking yourselfs and the big corporations is, why nowadays, 99% of the smartphones(so not just sgs), even the most expensive ones are build with weak, less capable internal gps receivers, forcing users to go online(celular network /a-gps) or using external bluetooth gps receivers to get stable satellite fixes that means stable navigation.
Years ago, many of the first smartphones came with sirfstar chipsets or alike , so once again, why not now? That's the question that should not be ignored or forgotten.
A friend of mine, that would not dare to pay more than a 100 box for a phone, bought an ancient ETEN device on a sale for 40 box with that old windows mobile 5 and guess what...the internal gps get fast fixes just like any standalone gps device because it got the same sirfstarIII chipset
Why the heck, the expensive so called high-end smartphones of today are not build with better gps chipsets? Why A-gps? So we are forced to get data accounts?
And what happens when I want to navigate abroad? Roaming?
For data transfer and internet I use wifi; I have it at home and I find hotspots everywhere...I will save those extra 120 euros(or more) per year (data account costs)
And nobody will force me to get one(internet/data account); not even for gps navigation that I so much use..
I use gps navigation only offline, using a external bluetooth device on a daily basis and, many times abroad; it works like a charm on my SGS; and I am talking about serious GPS car navigation software like iGo, Sygic, Navigon etc. .
Don't even use Google maps or alike.
I cannot tell you how my sgs is doing on online navigation, I dont have a data account so I wont even try it.
But once Samsung get this online gps navigation thing fixed, you guys should concentrate your energy on the real issue:
The A-gps scam
And for all the corporations out there: Just deliver a device with a capable gps chipset and you will sell millions..
And for all the users out there: Just get a good compact external bluetooth gps receiver and stop nagging....
Thanks to 3rd party developers, the Android OS on my SGS can be "fooled" and I can connect any navigation software to my bluetooth gps receiver threw programs like Bluetooth Gps Mouse Unlimited and Gps Provider.
I do have to " allow mock locations" at settings first...
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¿Ein? You don need data to get GPS fix, A-GPS is only an aid to get faster fixes
I thtink you're a littel misinformed
LOL.. o boy.. the AGPS is to help say if your indoors so you can get a faster lock... the phone will work without it.
Ummm I can see why you would think what you think, but I do believe you are wrong.
Firstly: as far as I'm aware, the SGS has the same GPS chip as the latest TomTom standalone unit.
Secondly: I guess AGPS is a data feature, it uses the triangulation of cell towers and pulls information to assist a sat lock, but it is not really a different way of using GPS. Ultimately you still need to get a sat lock to use a GPS App.
So it may speed up this lock, but it won't replace it. It just means it'll take you a little longer to get a sat lock than without it.
So you have the choice use it or don;t use it, no-one is forcing you to use data.
Logicalstep
Oletros said:
¿Ein? You don need data to get GPS fix, A-GPS is only an aid to get faster fixes
I thtink you're a littel misinformed
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Click to collapse
Lol those online translators dont work that smoothly...
I don't need a data/internet account to use celular networks aid, that means a-gps.That mean going online via 3g or 2g...
But IF I don.t have a data/internet account added to my phone subscription, my phone costs will be much higher depending on my use....
You are missing the point anyway...
betoNL said:
Lol those online translators dont work that smoothly...
I don't need a data/internet account to use celular networks aid, that means a-gps.That mean going online via 3g or 2g...
But IF I don.t have a data/internet account added to my phone subscription, my phone costs will be much higher depending on my use....
You are missing the point anyway...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, you're missing the point, you don't need any kind of data connection to use GPS, you can use it offline
Exactly...already the first line of Wikipedia says it: "Assisted GPS, generally abbreviated as A-GPS, is a system which can improve the startup performance of a GPS satellite-based positioning system."
There is, however, a related issue w/r/t A-GPS and a data account. Back on WinMo, I could download the ephemeris data to speed up the GPS fix for one week in advance (I think it was called QuickGPS or something on my HTC TouchHD, also had sth. like it on an old Eten). This allowed you to get a quick fix for said week, even without a data connection. Android, on the other hand, seems to download this data on the fly - meaning that if you don't have a data account you will experience a slow fix until your almanac has been filled "naturally" by the satellites you're seeing. I experienced that while on vacation this year without a roaming data contract - it took me a good 3-5 minutes to get the first fix and it was good from there on (well, as good as the SGS GPS gets ). I'd love to have some tool that does exactly what QuickGPS did, but I am not aware of anything like it.
TriC_101 said:
LOL.. o boy.. the AGPS is to help say if your indoors so you can get a faster lock... the phone will work without it.
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Click to collapse
I have always smile in my face when someone thinks he can get a lock indoors..
Yes in a cartoon box you can. Not in real building I'm afraid.
And for all those who think SGS's GPS is usable without A.
Try it.
You will see.
Dont post things you just caught on wikipedia.
xan said:
I have always smile in my face when someone thinks he can get a lock indoors..
Yes in a cartoon box you can. Not in real building I'm afraid.
And for all those who think SGS's GPS is usable without A.
Try it.
You will see.
Dont post things you just caught on wikipedia.
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Click to collapse
I can get a lock on 6-7 Sat no problem inside.... and so can lots of others.. don't know what your doing wrong but its not hard to get a lock inside.
Pics or it didnt happen
seems you all are little misinformed as to how the gps on android specifically sgs works. It is actually three systems at work here. Gps standalone without gprs and cell triangulation which gets lock within a minute same as standalone bluetooth units (they also take up to a minute from cold boot but because generally it is plugged in the car lighter and always on people think its blazing fast).then you have agps that downloads preloads data regarding satellite location in regards to your position via network instead of downloading same data directly from satellite thereby saving time. Both these can be used without checking network location in settings so to recap if your network location is unchecked you are still using agps as long as you have network connection (data connection that is).and samsungs system for agps being better than others cause it downloads data for while week as opposed to others downloading data everyone gps is turned on. Third level is network triangulation via cell towers that gets you that instant lock at the cost of accuracy useful mainly to let apps get your general location without having to engage real gps thereby saving power as well as give maps a chance to start calculating route while gps is still getting lock therefore appearing to operate faster.
Idan73 said:
Gps standalone without gprs and cell triangulation which gets lock within a minute same as standalone bluetooth units (they also take up to a minute from cold boot but because generally it is plugged in the car lighter and always on people think its blazing fast)
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Click to collapse
Standalone gps's got their batterys, and thus they start "warm".
Thing is, standalone SRIF3/4 gps gets a warm lock without any AGPS nor network triangulation within 5-10 seconds. SGS (and bunch of top-of-the pack devices) cant come even close to that.
the GPS on the SGS works fine offline
i don't even have data on when going on long road trips
you just need an offline GPS software with maps, like CoPilot or some other one you like
xan said:
Standalone gps's got their batterys, and thus they start "warm".
Thing is, standalone SRIF3/4 gps gets a warm lock without any AGPS nor network triangulation within 5-10 seconds. SGS (and bunch of top-of-the pack devices) cant come even close to that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sure they do. Sgs warm lock is 5 to 10 seconds as well. To test get the lock first then turn of data and network lock then start gps.restart of the phone same as restart of the standalone counts as a cold boot and takes about minute.
xan said:
Pics or it didnt happen
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Here ya go.... I don't have to prove anything just look on youtube.. This is the phone on for just 10sec.. if I had waited it would get down to about 10 feet... this pic was taken in a room where I get the lowest signal. and I live in a Condo with 2 foot concrete walls.. I don't have a digital camera.. this was taken with my old Samsung dumb phone.. but it does prove you can get a lock inside no problem.. also if i'm in a house I can get 6-7 sats to lock in the condo 5 at the most in that room.
only 3 sats and maybe the walls are thin
Polarfuchs said:
only 3 sats and maybe the walls are thin
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Click to collapse
LOL Trust me the walls and not thin.. i'm on the 10th floor of a 25 floor Condo complex. I get alot more signal is a house.. Now my X10 can get about 7 Sats locked in the same room. and down to 5 feet. but the point was you can get a lock inside..
I'll try it.
I live in a 3 stories house at ground floor. The shutters are down and I'm 1 meter away from the windows.
After 3 Minutes I get 5 sats in view but none used.
I'll hang on.
Even after 10 Minutes I only have 5 satellites in View and zero in Use.
So no fix for me.
The numbers on top of the bars are from 15 to 25.
Logicalstep said:
Ummm I can see why you would think what you think, but I do believe you are wrong.
Firstly: as far as I'm aware, the SGS has the same GPS chip as the latest TomTom standalone unit.
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Click to collapse
Most of Tomtom devices got a SiRFstarIII™ GPS chipset
If the GS got such one the amount of GPS threads in this Forum would be reduced considerably
What is your awareness based on?
Oletros said:
No, you're missing the point, you don't need any kind of data connection to use GPS, you can use it offline
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Idan73 said:
seems you all are little misinformed as to how the gps on android specifically sgs works. It is actually three systems at work here. Gps standalone without gprs and cell triangulation which gets lock within a minute same as standalone bluetooth units (they also take up to a minute from cold boot but because generally it is plugged in the car lighter and always on people think its blazing fast).then you have agps that downloads preloads data regarding satellite location in regards to your position via network instead of downloading same data directly from satellite thereby saving time. Both these can be used without checking network location in settings so to recap if your network location is unchecked you are still using agps as long as you have network connection (data connection that is).and samsungs system for agps being better than others cause it downloads data for while week as opposed to others downloading data everyone gps is turned on. Third level is network triangulation via cell towers that gets you that instant lock at the cost of accuracy useful mainly to let apps get your general location without having to engage real gps thereby saving power as well as give maps a chance to start calculating route while gps is still getting lock therefore appearing to operate faster.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
LOL... Lets put things in perspective :
1) Wich car navigation software do you use
2) when you UNcheck wireless networks =a-gps(in location and security) and you CHECk "use GPS satellites = build-in gps receiver and then you go outside, you start your car navigation software in you gs( taking into consideration that you have the righ map installed) how long does it take to get a fix so you can start driving?
3) Do you know the difference between a cold and warm start? Why the heck some of you mention car lighters????
Please just answer me these 3 questions and meanwhile I will post some educative information