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An Interesting read. See attached.
You know I'm at work and can't dl a .zip file. Care to explain what it is or am I going to have to wait til I get home and have an overwhelming feeling like it's christmas.
iPhone wins, Android/Palm come in second. The final paragraphs:
"Our data indicates there is little future for the ‘generic’ smartphone. Or, to be exact, the first generation of ‘generic’ smartphones. The iPhone has clearly raised the bar, but given the performance of the initial versions of the Pre and Android, the gap is narrowing. It’s clear from our data that the Android and Pre are worthy competitors to the iPhone, and more recent versions of the BlackBerry pose a bigger threat. As more applications are developed for the Pre and Android (and BlackBerry), and as hardware grows more competitive with the iPhone, customers will likely look to other criteria for choosing their phone – including evaluations of the provider. We will, in short, return to the earlier days of mobile phones, when coverage and price and plans mattered much more than the technology of the phone.
Our data also indicates all new smartphones, not just the iPhone, encourage a large amount of network usage. Business users and early adopters are less likely to burden the network as much as personal users and late adopters. As smartphone growth increases, all networks (not just AT&T’s) may be strained, leading to lower customer satisfaction across all providers. The carrier with the technological advantage will be best positioned to handle the smartphone explosion."
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I have a P6800.
I think it's a great tablet with many technical innovations.
I accept it wouldn't be to everyones taste.
I've worked in electronics in both retail, wholesale and manufacturing for a fair proportion of my working life.
Why haven't Samsung yet worked out that announcing a new product, then making the market wait months and months for shipment, while continuing to announce new products (which also won't ship for months) is undermining their impact in the market.
The new product announcements deter individuals and more importantly retailers (bricks and mortar not virtual) from carrying the product as they'll be concerned they'll either get left with stock or get hit with price drops.
Grey importing from the Far East destroys retailers willingness to carry a product with a RRP of £350 when it's available from Far East drop shippers for around 2/3 of that price.
This scattergun approach to product launches and lack of discipline in global pricing is seriously undermining Samsungs long term success in my opinion, someone somewhere high up in the organisation should really step back and make some hard decisions on strategy.
With so many products to support it takes a disproportionate amount of time to release updates (as we've seen with the P6800 6 months after ICS release) and the customer experience is therefore diminished.
Fanboiism only goes so far, a coherent, global, long term, production and marketing plan is what works in the market.
They also need to work on their pricing - I'd have bought one of these 7.7's long ago if they'd been realistically priced. As they are (in the UK) they're simply overpriced.
In general the Galaxy Tab range is just way too expensive - I know 2 people who bought iPad 3's instead as they were the same price as the 16GB Galaxy Tab 10.1!
You have to differentiate between lower price and diifferent price.
Personally I think the 7.7 is worth every penny and if Samsung did better marketing they could show the differences between the 7.7 and the IPad 3.
Instead they now have 5 different product ranges or 6 if you include the Galaxy Note....
7 Plus
7.7
8.9
10.1
7 v2
These, in theory, come in various memory sizes although I've never seen any memory size of more then 16gb on the 8.9, 7.7 or 7 plus ranges.
The average time between announcement and shipping seems to be 5 months and even today in the UK you cannot buy a UK sourced 7.7 3G as far as I know and it's 8 months since it was announced.
There are rumours of a 11.6? unit coming.
While I understand the desire to have a comprehensive range the reality is that Samsung are spreading themselves too thin and instead of launching 1 product in say 3 sizes they see each version as a totally new product. This means they themselves are confused about the offerings, this is reflected in the lack of marketing 'punch' in their message.
My suggestions for what could help.
1. Stop any new tablet announcements for 12 months.
2. Simplify the product range for an announcement in 12 months.
The range should be....
11.6 with no bezel (so same physical form factor as the current 10.1)
8.9 with no bezel
7 or 7.7
All should have Super Amoled Plus (or anything newer and better that's arrived by then)
The range should be technically identical except for the screen size (the specifics of the offerings would need to be worked out nearer to the launch)
Ship globally the full range within 4 weeks of the announcement, concentrate your marketing spend to this one 'product' in three size 'flavours'.
Sit back and reap the rewards.
In what regards consumer electronics, Samsung is being crushed by its own growth, "ungovernance" and lack of focus.
I've noticed this has been going on since, at least, 2007 year of my first interaction with them on account of the BDP-5000 combo player.
Like many Asian corporate giants, seen from the outside, Samsung seems like either (1) they don't have anyone at the helm or (2) they have too many people allowed at that very same helm, just giving the odd directional input, as they cluelessly seem fit.
When I see a photo of Gee-Sung Choi I don't think "Hey!...So that's the man behind all those incredible devices...".
Instead I think "...So, this is the guy behind that ugly mess..."
GK
(PS: Mine was 479 EUR at Dixons, in the Netherlands...excellent, excellent price)
You can buy a UK sourced 3G 7.7 from Clove Technology. Product code is GT-P6800LSAXEU. Price is an eye watering GBP478.80. When it gets to GBP350 I might get one. Current price is just too expensive for something which will be superseded in 6 months.
Yep!!
I am no marketing expert but even I can say that Samsung are continually missing out on opportunities for more sales, and more to the point getting themselves known. This isn't just the case with the P6800.
I know marketing/advertising is expensive but the rewards they would reap would be huge. Especially with the new budget Galaxy Tab 2 7.0 tablet, there are many people out there hungry for a capable tablet, but don't they want to shell out £500 for a tablet. An advertising campaign would make all the difference.
Look at the Galaxy Note! It took them 3 months to start TV adverts for it here. They really haven't a clue about marketing. Instead they are churning out products left, right and centre. Trying to cover all bases, it's an insane tactic.
The 7.7 is definitely over priced here, over £400 for the Wifi only model is just nuts. I don't own a 7.7 just yet, but I am very tempted. However, I don't have too much faith that ICS is actually coming to the 7.7.. also it's not been a very popular device for developers to play with, we can blame the price tag for that. It kinda feels like that even Samsung aren't really that interested in the 7.7. It's availability in general says something to me... then again Samsung are just a strange company.
Samsung have this frantic idea to push as many new products out the door, their business model is so wrong. They are shooting themselves in the foot.
jeremyr62 said:
You can buy a UK sourced 3G 7.7 from Clove Technology. Product code is GT-P6800LSAXEU. Price is an eye watering GBP478.80. When it gets to GBP350 I might get one. Current price is just too expensive for something which will be superseded in 6 months.
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Yea, Expansys have them too (SAMP680016GBS) at GBP479.99. I agree that GBP350's more realistic, but I'm not holding my breath.
I've just checked and you can pick them up on Amazon.com for USD597 (GBP371). Yet again we pay through the nose in Europe - Amazon.de's selling them for EUR742 (GBP591) and Amazon.fr for EUR683 (GBP544)!
Samsung probably doesn't go by the same metrics and ideas as you. People here often refer to the 7.7 as Samsung's "flagship tablet". It's really not. It's certainly their nicest one, and one that probably is the most difficult to manufacture.
The 10.1 is their "flagship" since that's what's selling and that's the direct competitor to the iPad (or least it used to be). The 7.7 is more of a niche edge thing.
burhanistan said:
Samsung probably doesn't go by the same metrics and ideas as you. People here often refer to the 7.7 as Samsung's "flagship tablet". It's really not. It's certainly their nicest one, and one that probably is the most difficult to manufacture.
The 10.1 is their "flagship" since that's what's selling and that's the direct competitor to the iPad (or least it used to be). The 7.7 is more of a niche edge thing.
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The 10.1 isn't selling in the UK or quite a few other parts of Europe.
My point isn't about this tablet or that tablet, it's about Samsungs lack of overall strategy.
Simplistically if you had 1 product in 3 size 'flavours' it allows you to price differentiate accordingly. Especially as the Internet means that your pricing strategy has to be global.
The current RRP pricing in the UK could work (and I know some people here will say it never would) if they concentrated their marketing spend and targetted it effectively, the reality is they're just spread way too thin with too many products and no clear strategy.
55brianb said:
I've just checked and you can pick them up on Amazon.com for USD597 (GBP371). Yet again we pay through the nose in Europe - Amazon.de's selling them for EUR742 (GBP591) and Amazon.fr for EUR683 (GBP544)!
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Here (austria) you can get the 7.7 for 499EUR. Shipping in EU is around 10EUR. Just wanted to state that because it seems to me that everybody thinks you can't get this device at a proper price. (german price is very overwhelmed because the tab 7.7 isn't officially available in germany!)
By the way I don't think the price is a huge problem as you get the device for "free" when signing a contract for mobile internet, and without that the tab is pretty much useless anyways.
Back to topic: I totally agree samsung is carrying a very strange marketing strategy. Also I think the idea of "unifying" the tabs, so that screen size is only technical difference and launch all of them with one big marketing campaign would be alot better and more efficient than just rolling out device after device after device. I can imagine some people don't want to buy a tab because you can be sure 2 or 3 months later the next, better model is announced. I think better support (ie releasing updates in time and for a longer period of time) would be much better than having slightly better hardware every few weeks.
OP actually listed marketing strategies of Apple. Unfortunately Samsung could not, and probably never will follow the very same strategies.
Samsung actually follows the best marketing strategy, only that strategy focuses on profit, rather than customers, like Apple does. That's why you think Samsung made a mess in marketing, from customer's perspective.
Also, price segmentation, wide variety of product line and hidden product roadmap is exactly most vendors do for decades, for profit maximization. Not that I believe these are the best strategies, Apple for one has proven them wrong.
In short Apple's marketing strategies must accompany with market-dominating products, which is a very risky marketing model for most corporations. (I think I should stop at this point, I found discussing marketing in tech forum boring indeed )
九千. said:
OP actually listed marketing strategies of Apple. Unfortunately Samsung could not, and probably never will follow the very same strategies.
Samsung actually follows the best marketing strategy, only that strategy focuses on profit, rather than customers, like Apple does. That's why you think Samsung made a mess in marketing, from customer's perspective.
Also, price segmentation, wide variety of product line and hidden product roadmap is exactly most vendors do for decades, for profit maximization. Not that I believe these are the best strategies, Apple for one has proven them wrong.
In short Apple's marketing strategies must accompany with market-dominating products, which is a very risky marketing model for most corporations. (I think I should stop at this point, I found discussing marketing in tech forum boring indeed )
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Errr...
I didn't quote use the marketing strategies of Apple. Apple have a very different value proposition which is based upon diverse revenue streams.
1. While they make good money on their hardware their tight control of their App and ITunes stores generate them substantial and very profitable secondary revenue streams.
2. They are single product focused (the continued sale of the IPad2 is to run down production lines in my opinion). They only have single products in a segment, albeit with different memory sizes.
3. While they present themselves as a technical leader they are in my opinion a very good marketing operation who package up others technical breakthroughs.
I met Steve Jobs back in about 1979, he was pretty good at pinching other peoples ideas even then.
I disagree with your assessment that Samsung focus on profit, frankly the marketing of their tablets in Europe has been non existent. Unless you're selling a product you're not making profits and allowing such large pricing differentials in markets just encourages grey imports and undermines your message to your stockists.
I know of at least two major UK retailers who carry Samsung tablets but don't carry the full range and don't have presentation units on display, when I asked them why they said "...because we don't know where their focus is...." (my paraphrase).
I'm glad that you are interesting in this boring topic.
pinsb said:
Errr...
I didn't quote use the marketing strategies of Apple. Apple have a very different value proposition which is based upon diverse revenue streams.
1. While they make good money on their hardware their tight control of their App and ITunes stores generate them substantial and very profitable secondary revenue streams.
2. They are single product focused (the continued sale of the IPad2 is to run down production lines in my opinion). They only have single products in a segment, albeit with different memory sizes.
3. While they present themselves as a technical leader they are in my opinion a very good marketing operation who package up others technical breakthroughs.
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Click to collapse
Actually I think we were not discussing above three point before. Anyway, I agree with you except point 3, I have problems with Apple in their motives on crushing technological advancement, least honoring them with the title of technical leader.
pinsb said:
I met Steve Jobs back in about 1979, he was pretty good at pinching other peoples ideas even then.
I disagree with your assessment that Samsung focus on profit, frankly the marketing of their tablets in Europe has been non existent. Unless you're selling a product you're not making profits and allowing such large pricing differentials in markets just encourages grey imports and undermines your message to your stockists.
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It depends on regions. As liberal as they seem to be, many EU countries have strict imports restrictions that effectively repel foreign imports. I can't speak for Samsung, but in our case our electronics products have to go through complicated regulations on standards and safety measures, before being allowed to import, with applied period and quantity constraints. Also, EU has their own patent office, on the top of USPTO, which in effect erecting a huge import barrier to all import goods, especially electronics.
Given such a huge barrier, it makes sense for a large corporation cutting back budget in marketing. For example, delay in launching Galaxy Tabs in Germany as a result of on-going litigation causing them to lose the time-to-market, and you wouldn't be surprise when they retreat all the marketing campagin planned.
pinsb said:
I know of at least two major UK retailers who carry Samsung tablets but don't carry the full range and don't have presentation units on display, when I asked them why they said "...because we don't know where their focus is...." (my paraphrase).
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Click to collapse
UK has a different story. I cannot detail that without offending British Government or people supporting them. So please let me pass on that. As to the reason why Samsung widely expands the product lines in Galaxy Tab, I think I have explained before. This is not about market-focusing, it is about market-segmentation.
I wish my above points reaching you.
I think Samsung have got the right strategy by offering a choice of different tablet sizes in the same way that laptops are offered in different sizes. A lot of the big laptop players such as Toshiba are now entering the market and offering a choice of 3 or 4 tablet sizes. People have become brain washed by the Apple one size fits all approach.
Crazy prices, and here is me, getting the tab for 499 Swiss Francs
Having seen the Sammie press release about 9m pre sales of SG3 handsets I now understand.......
Sammie see their route to market (In Europe at least) as via Carriers, they aren't really that interested in marketing products except as an adjunct to assist the Carriers sell handsets. As tablets are much more often a stand alone sale it's had no attention.
While I still think the P6800 is a great product I've come to the realisation that Sammie will never give it the attention it should have got, as a result sales will never reach their potential and therefore ROM development will always be restricted.
Hopefully the CM9 situation will accelerate when ICS Colonel Sauces are release, the developers have already done a fantastic job of getting a 90% working build.
Ho Hum.....
To sell the tablet and replace with the new Google (Asus) Nexus (depending on spec) or see what happens.
I'm feeling pretty let down by Sammie right now and to be honest it'll influence my decision about buying Sammie products in the future.
pinsb said:
You have to differentiate between lower price and diifferent price.
Personally I think the 7.7 is worth every penny and if Samsung did better marketing they could show the differences between the 7.7 and the IPad 3.
Instead they now have 5 different product ranges or 6 if you include the Galaxy Note....
7 Plus
7.7
8.9
10.1
7 v2
These, in theory, come in various memory sizes although I've never seen any memory size of more then 16gb on the 8.9, 7.7 or 7 plus ranges.
The average time between announcement and shipping seems to be 5 months and even today in the UK you cannot buy a UK sourced 7.7 3G as far as I know and it's 8 months since it was announced.
There are rumours of a 11.6? unit coming.
While I understand the desire to have a comprehensive range the reality is that Samsung are spreading themselves too thin and instead of launching 1 product in say 3 sizes they see each version as a totally new product. This means they themselves are confused about the offerings, this is reflected in the lack of marketing 'punch' in their message.
My suggestions for what could help.
1. Stop any new tablet announcements for 12 months.
2. Simplify the product range for an announcement in 12 months.
The range should be....
11.6 with no bezel (so same physical form factor as the current 10.1)
8.9 with no bezel
7 or 7.7
All should have Super Amoled Plus (or anything newer and better that's arrived by then)
The range should be technically identical except for the screen size (the specifics of the offerings would need to be worked out nearer to the launch)
Ship globally the full range within 4 weeks of the announcement, concentrate your marketing spend to this one 'product' in three size 'flavours'.
Sit back and reap the rewards.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They should all have wacom digitizers. That's all I'll add. I dont care if its as much or more than an ipad. I HATE HATE HATE apple.
Samsung already offers a superior product. If they consildated their Note line-up into these specs, included gs3, gave the gTab 7.7 and gs3 wacom digitizers and launched them ALL with ICS at launch, let touchwiz be an opt-in with first FOTA, EVERYONE would be happy.
Sent from my GT-P6800
Yep!!
I am no marketing expert but even I can say that Samsung are continually missing out on opportunities for more sales, and more to the point getting themselves known. This isn't just the case with the P6800.
I know marketing/advertising is expensive but the rewards they would reap would be huge. Especially with the new budget Galaxy Tab 2 7.0 tablet, there are many people out there hungry for a capable tablet, but don't they want to shell out £500 for a tablet. An advertising campaign would make all the difference.
Look at the Galaxy Note! It took them 3 months to start TV adverts for it here. They really haven't a clue about marketing. Instead they are churning out products left, right and centre. Trying to cover all bases, it's an insane tactic.
The 7.7 is definitely over priced here, over £400 for the Wifi only model is just nuts. I don't own a 7.7 just yet, but I am very tempted. However, I don't have too much faith that ICS is actually coming to the 7.7.. also it's not been a very popular device for developers to play with, we can blame the price tag for that. It kinda feels like that even Samsung aren't really that interested in the 7.7. It's availability in general says something to me... then again Samsung are just a strange company.
Samsung have this frantic idea to push as many new products out the door, their business model is so wrong. They are shooting themselves in the foot.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Be more than tempted. This is the best device on the market. From what I understand, samsung is having a hard time supplying the screens. The production process is outrageously precise and there are only two factories producing them in the whole world. Those two factories are supplying htc, motorola, and what's the other 7" amoled tablet?
Its US$699 in the states and only offered under Verizon. They took out telephony hardware. So the only way to get the gsm version is through import. I got mine used for US$500 and is in excellent condition.
The sad thing is, in my personal opinion, this technology is the greatest innovation in mark-making since the invention of painting. PM me for more on that one.
Sent from my GT-P6800
To me it looks a bit like Samsung is using a shotgun blast of models and sizes to look what the public wants.
If it becomes successful enough it gets an followup and else they try something different.
Mario387 said:
To me it looks a bit like Samsung is using a shotgun blast of models and sizes to look what the public wants.
If it becomes successful enough it gets an followup and else they try something different.
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What the public want are good quality, speedy, reliable tablets, priced fairly. The first company to deliver on this will make a killing. Simple.
Samsung's trying to compete with Apple, which I now think they are close to in terms of hardware. Where they appear to be going wrong is in their pricing strategy - they are simply pricing themselves out of the market, and as long as their prices remain high they'll lose out on potentially massive sales.
First of all I am not what I would call a fan boy even though every major appliance in my house is a Samsung, even the dishwasher. I have an S3 phone and the Note 10.1 is my constant companion. Lately I have been wondering as we wait for JB update (both phone and tablet) if the Apple ruling in the USA is hampering the speed that we are getting Samsung updates or software. Hell, you can barely get any accessories for the Note 10.1 in the US much less an update. There are even issues with some software available on the the Samsung app store that due to licensing issues Samsung can't sell in the US but the rest of the world has full access.
I love my tablet and would not trade it for any other. Works great as it is and if JB never came I would be fine. However, I think that it is possible we will see a much different user experience here in the states over the next few years when it comes to Samsung Tablets and Phones than the rest of the world. Until Apple gets off the crack pipe and stops litigating every electronic item that comes out we may have an issue.
Thoughts?
rap6388 said:
...if the Apple ruling in the USA is hampering the speed that we are getting Samsung updates or software.
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Click to collapse
It's just Samsung's priorities or lack thereof. HTC's just as bad. And both typically launch updates internationally first so our friends overseas aren't getting something we're not since other than the one German carrier ROM no Note has JB. The JB roll-out on the SGS3's not going particularly well and the One X JB update went back to the drawing board after problems were encountered when it was rolled out to the first region to receive it (Taiwan). So it’s the update process that sucks and the U.S. is just along for the ride.
Hell, you can barely get any accessories for the Note 10.1 in the US
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Or Europe. The car dock for the GN was released nine months after it was shown. Same thing for the wireless charging station for the SGS3. The U.S. actually got the book cover for the Note before Europe. The accessory line is just mismanaged; I don't think the U.S. fares better or worse than the rest of the world. And again, HTC's the same. Kind of makes you wonder why they offer accessories at all if they don't want to sell them.
I think that it is possible we will see a much different user experience here in the states over the next few years when it comes to Samsung Tablets and Phones than the rest of the world.
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You need to separate tablets and phones. Phones are always going to be a cluster here in the U.S because Samsung doesn't sell unlocked phones directly and the carriers here are notorious for their lack of urgency for getting updates out. The U.S. Wi-Fi Note is a Samsung direct device and so far hasn't been treated better or worse than its international relatives when it comes to updates. Samsung customizes the s/w by region for each device they sell. The U.S. is just another region and a big one at that. Certain Android features are blocked in the U.S. by both Samsung and HTC but so far that hasn’t appeared to affect the update schedule one way or the other.
Don't you guys never heard abaut ebay (de or gb). And considering on updates, sammobile page is available on whole earth.
No, its the same everywhere else. I'm in the uk and have received 0 updates.
im in egypt and no update
i wish the give the update to world wide very soon
I don't think I was clear. This is not about the JB update but just Samungs' position in the market right now with Apple hanging over their head based on the over the top billion dollar ruling.
For example, there is an app in Samsung market called DirectOffice Print. It is a great print app but the US owner can't buy the app on the app store because of contract issues Samsung has in the US. It is items like this and features that the US seem to miss that I am speaking of.
rap6388 said:
I don't think I was clear. This is not about the JB update but just Samungs' position in the market right now with Apple hanging over their head based on the over the top billion dollar ruling.
For example, there is an app in Samsung market called DirectOffice Print. It is a great print app but the US owner can't buy the app on the app store because of contract issues Samsung has in the US. It is items like this and features that the US seem to miss that I am speaking of.
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The Samsung App store not being able to manage payments in the U.S. is an infrastructure issue that has nothing to do with Apple. They've said U.S. payments will be in enable in Q1 2013. And the "billion dollar ruling" is a drop in the bucket; they made $7.4B in profit in Q3 of this year alone. By raising Apple's chip prices 20% they probably covered it if they indeed ever have to pay it. The Note V will be out by the time appeals are exhausted. If Samsung's not doing something or not doing it right it's because their Samsung. They get a lot right but they get a lot wrong too.
rap6388 said:
I don't think I was clear. This is not about the JB update but just Samungs' position in the market right now with Apple hanging over their head based on the over the top billion dollar ruling.
For example, there is an app in Samsung market called DirectOffice Print. It is a great print app but the US owner can't buy the app on the app store because of contract issues Samsung has in the US. It is items like this and features that the US seem to miss that I am speaking of.
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Click to collapse
Well, as much as I hate to say it, this is how Sammy does business.
It's worse if you're in Canada.
Samsung Canada has a reciprocal agreement with Samsung USA not to sell to each other's market. But Samsung Canada doesn't feel there's much demand in Canada for computer products - just phones... (although it is getting better - we now have netbooks... Yes, that was sarcasm...) so we either get Samsung products late or not at all. And even though we're right on the border - we can cross border shop - we can't buy the products in the US online and have it shipped.
Ironically, Samsung opened their first North American full time store in Metrotown Mall in Burnaby British Columbia Canada (a suburb of Vancouver).but they can't show most of their products because they're not available in Canada and you can't buy them from the US.
And even though Canada uses the same cell and WiFi frequencies as the US, we get 'special' verisons of their products that block us from getting updates at the same time as the US. (That's why there's a GN 8010 AND a GN 8013 that are essentially identical). I had the same problem with my Galaxy Nexus phone - the Canadian version is a yakjuux which is supported (barely) by Samsung rather than the yakju version that's supported by Google directly,.
Like you - most of my hardware is Samsung - simply because they build exactly what I want. No one else does. But it means I have to drive to the US and buy these over the counter and drive them back, or have a friend in the US ship it to me.
I may like Samsung's products - but the company sucks...
Side note: Also, they're lousy at getting accessories in big box stores like Best Buy and Future Shop up here... I was trying to get a Note 10.1 Book case and the Samsung Store was out. They recommended going to BB or FS and I had to point out that neither of them actually carry any Samsung accessories - hell, it's hard enough finding the Note 10.1 in some of them...
I should have learned my lesson when I had my Tab 10.1, took them a year to update it to ICS. By the time they did that, I had been using unofficial ROM for about 4 months (give or take). Not acceptable. This is definitely my last Samsung tablet, even though I love it dearly. Samsung don't deserve one single dime for their awful commitment to customer's satisfaction.
Gotta get Nexus
if you want the latest ROMS
mrdaco said:
Don't you guys never heard abaut ebay (de or gb). And considering on updates, sammobile page is available on whole earth.
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Click to collapse
That's not a solution. If I wanted to buy from unreliable and potentially shady resellers - I'd buy at Best Buy.
At least they have a return policy...
The point is that if you're going to make products, you should support them well. Or at all. Samsung is the leader in sales for smartphones and are rapidly growing in market share for tablets... yet they still can't get Best Buy to carry cases for their phones or tablets. All you get is the usual wall after wall of iDevice crap.
Best Buy isn't a charity - they carry what they think will sell - or what the manufacturer will pay them to carry (yes, surprise - manufacturers pay for special displays and 'endcaps' as well as for preferred positioning - higher on a shelf for example). Samsung has to spend a bit more to get the visibility Apple gets. They have to realise that customer support is more than just having a lousy website that's more about selling more product than about supporting the customers they already have...
But 'return customer' and 'customer loyalty' seems very low on Asian hardware maker's minds, it would seem.
TheWerewolf said:
But 'return customer' and 'customer loyalty' seems very low on Asian hardware maker's minds, it would seem.
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The h/w business is almost entirely Asian with the exception of Apple, Nokia, and Motorola. We've discussed update priorities, accessory availability, and general attention to existing customer's needs. Only Motorola sells Android devices so it's them vs. the Asians if you want to draw a comparison. I've owned devices from Motorola and most of the Asian manufacturers. Here's my conclusion: they all suck in the three categories we're discussing. Let's add a fourth category; product quality. Here's my quick assessment:
Samsung - Means well but gets caught up in their enormity. Their priority is clearly future sales but they generally tend to treat the existing customer base well. There are exceptions and the OG G-Tab update to ICS is a good one. By offering dozens of different s/w types on a single device they make their own life more difficult. Rolling out updates across regions is a cluster because of it. They have terrific warranty service and will pay roundtrip shipping for repairs and replace a device with a new one if parts aren't available. They suck at the number of accessories offered and making them available in a timely manner. Their products are generally well put together using premium components.
HTC - Has really been trying to get updates out more quickly and with better quality. The One X has been updated to three new Android versions and has gotten three new versions of Sense since March. In spite of that it still takes too long to get updates out and they've had some pretty bad s/w that's been deployed without being thoroughly tested. Their warranty service is hit or miss depending on region. The U.S. isn't too bad and they do seem to try to get things right. They have a really nice variety of accessories; good luck trying to find them in stock anywhere. Their products are made from premium components but they've had a lot of QC issues with their latest devices. Good examples are extremely well made. They don't provide warranty support for devices that have had their bootloaders unlocked.
LG - Their support in the U.S. is atrocious and the rest of the world is a mixed bag. An alarming number of their products over the past two years have had design and h/w issues. Examples are overheating, spontaneous rebooting, boot loops, and sporadic wireless performance. Both the new Optimus G and N4 have thermal throttling issues so it doesn't seem like much has changed. The HTC Droid DNA has the same chip set and isn't experiencing similar issues. They are absolutely atrocious at updates. They offer few accessories and what's offered is impossible to find. Their devices are built well but it doesn't matter if they have fatal design flaws. The customer has to pay to ship a device to LG for repair.
Asus - They put more effort in to serving their existing customers than any other Android manufacturer. They are quick to update their devices, have representatives commenting on XDA, and try to address issues they're made aware of. Their warranty service is atrocious with frequent claims of "customer induced damage" for known issues. It can take weeks to get a device repaired and it's difficult to get an accurate status. Customers pay shipping to get the device to Asus. Their products are made from inferior and in some cases outdated components. They also have an abnormally high number of QC issues. The latter two elements along with crappy repair service sort of negate their customer service efforts. They offer a few basic accessories that seem to be generally more available compared to other manufacturers. When they introduce a new device its a cluster trying to find it and, because they're offered in multiple colors, finding the matching keyboard. They don't provide warranty support for devices that have had their bootloaders unlocked.
Sony - There are tied with LG for being worst at keeping their devices updated. I'm not familiar with their mobile device service but I've used them for PC service and they've been very responsive. Their products are generally well made but always seem to be a cycle behind everyone else design, feature and s/w wise. They tend to do well with offering accessories and making them readily available but they are very expensive.
Motorola - Their support of existing customers is tragic compared to the Asians. Even after Google acquired them they announced that late-2011 high-end devices that they promised upgrades to ICS for wouldn't be receiving them. They offered affected customers $100 off a future Motorola phone instead. They are also worse than the Asians at updates they do roll out. Their warranty and repair service is generally good. Their products are well made but MotoBlur is considered the worst of the overlays. It has been toned down on newer phones but is still far less complete than Sense or TW. They offer quite a few accessories but they are quite expensive. They are fairly easy to find. But in comparing Motorola to the Asians their complete lack of regard for existing customers makes them the worst of a bad lot. They don't provide warranty support for devices that have had their bootloaders unlocked.
So, at the end of the day, there aren't really any stand-out winners. Toshiba, Acer, and Lenovo are bit players based on the low volume of devices they sell so I haven't included them. From general observation they aren't typically known to be any better or worse than the companies I've described. So balancing all four criteria Samsung and HTC, IMHO, are the best of a bad lot (at least in the Android world). Since Samsung seems to be taking over the Android world any way we might not have to worry about comparisons for very much longer.
Thoughts? Personal experiences?
BarryH_GEG said:
The h/w business is almost entirely Asian with the exception of Apple, Nokia, and Motorola. We've discussed update priorities, accessory availability, and general attention to existing customer's needs. Only Motorola sells Android devices so it's them vs. the Asians if you want to draw a comparison. I've owned devices from Motorola and most of the Asian manufacturers. Here's my conclusion: they all suck in the three categories we're discussing. Let's add a fourth category; product quality. Here's my quick assessment:
...
So, at the end of the day, there aren't really any stand-out winners. Toshiba, Acer, and Lenovo are bit players based on the low volume of devices they sell so I haven't included them. From general observation they aren't typically known to be any better or worse than the companies I've described. So balancing all four criteria Samsung and HTC, IMHO, are the best of a bad lot (at least in the Android world). Since Samsung seems to be taking over the Android world any way we might not have to worry about comparisons for very much longer.
Thoughts? Personal experiences?
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Sounds like Samsung should hire Asus to support their products and Asus should get Samsung build their products.
Vincent9756 said:
Sounds like Samsung should hire Asus to support their products and Asus should get Samsung build their products.
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Here's the difference between Asus and Samsung/HTC when it comes to updates. Asus is the hands-down winner for getting updates out the door the fastest. But in doing so, it takes at least three subsequent updates to make the initial update complete. Samsung and HTC are painfully slow but (usually) the updates they get out are pretty solid. By that time, because Asus had to update the update multiple times, they arrive at the same place at the same time. Kind of a "tortoise vs. the hare" thing.
BarryH_GEG said:
The h/w business is almost entirely Asian with the exception of Apple, Nokia, and Motorola. We've discussed update priorities, accessory availability, and general attention to existing customer's needs. Only Motorola sells Android devices so it's them vs. the Asians if you want to draw a comparison. I've owned devices from Motorola and most of the Asian manufacturers. Here's my conclusion: they all suck in the three categories we're discussing. Let's add a fourth category; product quality. Here's my quick assessment:
...
So, at the end of the day, there aren't really any stand-out winners. Toshiba, Acer, and Lenovo are bit players based on the low volume of devices they sell so I haven't included them. From general observation they aren't typically known to be any better or worse than the companies I've described. So balancing all four criteria Samsung and HTC, IMHO, are the best of a bad lot (at least in the Android world). Since Samsung seems to be taking over the Android world any way we might not have to worry about comparisons for very much longer.
Thoughts? Personal experiences?
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Click to collapse
I agree. I wasn't actually making a 'Western vs Asian' comparison - although rereading what I wrote, it does come across that way. Unfortunately, Apple is kind of the bar for support, quality and attention to detail, even with their recent decline in all three areas.
But my experiences with HP, for example - with their Slate 500 was odd - they had delivery problems, but they really went the extra mile to make up for it. In fact, in my own case, they ended up giving me almost a 30% discount for being late. I didn't even ask for it. They did screw up by choosing n-Trig for the digitiser - but at the time, it seemed a logical choice.
I only have one major experience with Dell - I bought an Axion Windows Mobile PDA that failed. They sent me a box in which to return it at no cost... and a new unit along with the box - also at no cost.
Of course, I have a Transformer Prime - and it's such a mixed bag of hurt and happy. As you note - the device feels right - and they got a lot right about it. It has the best USB driver support of any tablet out there. It provides enough USB power to run a hard drive. The dock is brilliant. And then they mess up something as basic as the GPS, WiFi and Bluetooth. And I think most of us could have dealt with that - if Asus hadn't utterly botched their response to the problem by essentially admitting the problem, then failing to fix it, then claiming the GPS wasn't meant for serious use (commerical GPS? What?) then trying to erase history by removing the feature from the box, then sending everyone a free GPS dongle that was just horribly thought out... and didn't fix the WiFi or BT issues. To add insult to injury - they announce a replacement pair of Transformers with the problem fixed... just two weeks after finally shipping the Prime - which was late. But the Infinity was supposed to be $100 more (which kind of took some of the pain away) - only to finally ship at the exact same price as the Prime.
Oh.. and then just after getting the dongle, the Prime's back camera died and that took a month to get repaired...
That's a lot of bad PR and bad customer support in one ball of hurt.
I bought an HTC Surround - the design made it impossible to remove the back without holding the screen which is on a slider. I sent it back after just two months of ownership because after upgrading to WP7.5 the screen started to act oddly.They claimed that the strain on the screen damaged it and refused to repair or replace it under warranty - demanding $250.
Which brings us back to Apple for a moment - I bought an iPhone 3G and two weeks afters the warranty expired, the 3G radio fried. When I took it back, they refused service - but offered refurb replacement.. also for $250. I asked if I could pay extra and upgrade to the 3Gs, but they refused claiming that their agreement with the cellco prohibited that. You'll pardon me when I get annoyed at people who go on about how great Apple's customer support is and how 'they'll replace or repair broken devices, even if they're a little over warranty...' Riiiight.
So, yes, as much as I hate to say it - at the moment, Samsung is the least evil current choice....
But it's definitely not what I would call a great choice...
TheWerewolf said:
Apple is kind of the bar for support, quality and attention to detail, even with their recent decline in all three areas.
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I totally agree. Part of it is because Apple's a marketing culture. They have always believed that pulling customers in with an excellent experience (h/w, s/w, content, support) and not relegating the control of the experience to others would lead them to loyalty, advocacy, scale, and profit. Looking at their market cap you can't argue with their approach. But their stock's dropped 20% since September while Samsung's been selling record numbers of devices and reeling in record profits. Samsung is no Apple and I don't think they'd ever be able to adapt that culture. But Apple's begun to bore people by sticking to their formula while everyone else is offering bolder more individualized experiences. The aging of Apple's demographic and adoption of Android by younger market segments doesn't bode well for Apple's future. At some point they are going to have to do something interesting and it isn't making the iPhone's display taller. Remember their famous "1984" commercial and the "think different" campaign? They've become what they used to parody.
I'm from Australia and thought much the same particularly with accessory availability. Then I moved to kenya of all places. Here Samsung is the undisputed champion. Nobody has an Iphone. Everyone has Samsung. Accessories are everywhere. All the major Supermarkets have a phone shop inside them and nearly all carry accessories en masse.
It makes an enormous difference to the functionality and usefulness of the product when you can do things like plug a flash drive into it or plug it into your TV. There are also many dedicated Samsung shops around the place. Although for some reason they seem to get the products later than the other retailers.
Samsung can definitely get it right in certain regions. I'm not sure why it struggles in others
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Simple, its what the public wants... Or thinks it wants...
Samsung have started to push out adverts here in Oz, especially S3 and SGNote 10.1, now when you rarely ever used to see their phones advertised. Apple was everywhere...
The shops are simply responding to what the customers want... Everyone was buying apple products, so naturally you stock Apple accessories with a few other brand accessories too. But if the lions share of customers want Apple products, why would you stock with only a few Apple accessories and have a whole heap of stuff you can't sell because the perceived market isn't there? That would be, from a sellers point of view, madness...
Until public opinion and buying habits shift noticeably then we are stuck with shops full of Crapple merchandise. When Android becomes a major seller, this is where standardisation is good, then we'll see the stock move to that area instead as profit drops for Apple stock... Unfortunately there's still a perception among retailers that Apple is an easy sell... That and the fact that there are a million different types of android tablet and phones out in the world, and there's only so many things they are prepared to stock while generally all Apple stuff fit or was useable by all apple customers... Until Iphone 5 that is...
The issue as I have always understood it has many sides. First Apple builds their OS for their devices, no one else gets it no other hardware can run it so they only have to optimize and remove features based on the generation of the device (3GS, 4, 4S, etc) and what will and won't work.
Now for Android OEM's they have a couple of challenges. First Google makes the OS and unless you are chosen for a Nexus launch you won't get the new OS in its finished state until after that (don't recall when JB 4.1.1 came out) so they have to wait.
Then the OEM's have to decide which devices can and cannot run the software based on the crippled (carrier specified hardware in the USA) so devices that are less than a year old get screwed over (HTC 2012 and 2011). Then they have to make sure their drivers work since not ever one of their phones (and tablets) uses the same processor or family of processors so we have Texas Instruments, Qualcomm, Samsung, Intel, etc. Then the priority is always given to the latest hardware going out the door since you want your newest hardware to (hopefully) be running the most current OS you had in the pipeline, or in our case JB 4.1.1. Then they start to update for devices they can support.
Now what I see as a huge issue and is the heart of fragmentation is Google's failure to set standards and timelines from both the OEM's and Carriers (USA are the offenders here) to deliver the OS updates. Google should be collaborating with the OEM's to enforce software rollouts. They could also put forth some type of awareness campaign to insure users are in the know and can have an expectation from their carrier and OEM that they will get that update. Oh wait that was the Android Alliance crap announced last year that did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
For me I would be fine with my GN 10.1 and soon GN 2 running some iteration of JellyBean hopefully 4.2 so it has the enhanced security features etc.
BarryH_GEG said:
I totally agree. Part of it is because Apple's a marketing culture. They have always believed that pulling customers in with an excellent experience (h/w, s/w, content, support) and not relegating the control of the experience to others would lead them to loyalty, advocacy, scale, and profit. Looking at their market cap you can't argue with their approach. But their stock's dropped 20% since September while Samsung's been selling record numbers of devices and reeling in record profits. Samsung is no Apple and I don't think they'd ever be able to adapt that culture. But Apple's begun to bore people by sticking to their formula while everyone else is offering bolder more individualized experiences. The aging of Apple's demographic and adoption of Android by younger market segments doesn't bode well for Apple's future. At some point they are going to have to do something interesting and it isn't making the iPhone's display taller. Remember their famous "1984" commercial and the "think different" campaign? They've become what they used to parody.
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Just gotta say: iCustomers are snobby, horribly wretched, self-absorbed "high designer" wanna-be's. Apple's hw is far from impeccable, the sw is strangling. They're good at glamour (making something appear far better than it actually is). Samsung is unfortunately trying to cut into that crowd, and I think they'd do better to provide a strong counter position: a tablet that lasts for years instead of 6 months. A phone that makes it to the next upgrade cycle (like the gNex).
Early 20th century design principles (built to last decades-- ie heirloom quality) should be a global standard....yes I know I'm pipe dreaming here....
Apple IMO has made it difficult for Samsung to really get behind its own products in the US, but it's jot just apple, mobile device carriers have lobbied our government, fcc, and individual manufacturers to NOT release things like the p6800 or the n8000 because carriers want you to buy a phone AND a tablet with a data plan, not just a tabletnwith telephony hardware... so f***ing sick of our markets being manipulated by the big players, people don't even know that there ARE tablets available with telephony hw... blah...
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Wonder what the reasons on this are?
I know a few people who decided it wasn't worth the upgrade over the S3.
After breaking sales records in its first month the Samsung Galaxy S4 may not be as popular as first thought, as reports roll in suggesting the Korean firm is reducing its orders.
According to ETNews, Samsung has slashed its July orders for Galaxy S4 handsets by almost half, as it looks to ship in 6.5 million units next month compared to the 12.2 million in pushed May.
Sales have apparently begun to slow at faster rate than expected, which has led Samsung to reevaluate its monthly orders to meet the reduced demand.
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http://www.techradar.com/news/phone...y-s4-popularity-on-the-slide-already--1160366
Still, it's a lot better upgrade to go from an S3 to S4 than iP4S to iP5.
For me. Battery life is one massive reason. Easily get a full day of full use on the s4 where I was struggling on the s3 with the same usage.
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It's their own fault for diluting their brand with 20 different versions of the same phone
That and HTC really stepped up this year
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I wonder if all these other Galaxy branded products that have appeared from Samsung has had an effect?
I think the main reason is the S3, S3 LTE & Note II being so popular and also being alot cheaper now aswell both simfree & on contract.
Alot of people apart from us on here, will look at the S4 and think it looks no different from the S3, so no point in upgrading.
I also think brand dilution is also starting to having it effect aswell, moreso with the S4.
Next year Samsung need to go back to the drawing board with the S5, bring out something that looks totally different & fresh from the S3/S4, redesign touchwiz make it lighter & more upto date, instead of adding more bloat.
Those numbers imply that Sammy are on target for 50/80 m sales of the s4 as they projected
Ever heard of the term "market saturation" ?
There are tons of S3 everywhere around me and none of them is planning to update any time soon.
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I've had an S3 i9300 since it was launched and I bought an S4 i9500 yesterday.
The only important difference I see is in the camera software.
Wasn't worth the purchase. Should have waited for the Note 3.
You kind of have to put the SGS4's sales "decline" in context:
High-end smartphone sales are slowing. Primarily because the market has matured and penetration is now high. This is an issue that affects every high-end smartphone manufacturer equally. And in emerging markets high-end phones aren’t what sell. As an example, high-end smartphones over $400 USD only made up 2.5% of smartphone sales in India in 2012. Phones between $100-130 USD were 30% of sales.
Samsung may have outpaced Apple in smartphone sales last quarter, but it’s facing the same slowdown risks as its biggest competitor. Both companies are battling to dominate the world’s smartphone market. In places such as the United States, nearly everyone who’s interested in buying a smartphone already has one, decreasing demand overall. But the smartphone revolution has yet to hit the world’s most lucrative markets such as China and India in full force. That leaves smartphone companies in a bind. High-end devices provide the lion’s share of smartphone profits, and are still too expensive to appeal to customers outside of the major cities in the world’s most important markets.
Samsung, overall, is well-positioned to navigate this split. The company is already the market leader in China and picking up more customers across the globe, thanks to its strategy of offering a wide range of devices apart from its premium iPhone competitor, the Galaxy S 4. Apple, meanwhile, offers older versions of its phones at lower prices rather than specifically making cheaper phones.http://articles.washingtonpost.com/...one-market-smartphone-sales-smartphone-makers
The SGS3 sold 50MM units over twelve months. Analysts have lowered their estimates on SGS4's shipped; primarily because of the above. But in this example the analyst dropped his estimate from 80MM to 60MM this year. Since the SGS4 launched in April that allows for nine selling months. On an annualized basis 60MM is equal to 80MM SGS4's a year. That's a 33% increase over the SGS3's annualized selling rate.
JPMorgan now expects Suwon, South Korea-based Samsung’s shipments of the S4 to be 60 million this year, compared with a previous estimate of 80 million. Samsung sold 10 million units of the S4 within 27 days, the company said.http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-...pmorgan-cuts-estimates-on-s4-seoul-mover.html
Samsung itself never disclosed actual SGS4 sales targets for 2013. All the numbers being talked about were unofficial analysts estimates. In terms of overall mobile sales revenue Samsung will probably still meet analysts’ expectations. This year Samsung's got a ton of products launching in the same time frame (SGS4, SGS4 Active, SGS4 Zoom, SGS4 Mini, Mega, N3, a bunch of mid-range phones, and four new tablets). The concern becomes "profit" rather than "sales" because Samsung makes less on non-Flagship devices. Here's what Samsung's CEO said about the SGS4's sales.
"I can say sales of the Galaxy S4 smartphone are fine. It’s been selling well. The report (by JPMorgan) was based on its own analysis. Probably, the bank may have corrected its previous bullish estimate about the S4 sales."http://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_ceo_says_galaxy_s4_sales_are_fine-news-6210.php
Samsung, because of their dominance, has become like Apple. They are the company the investment community and media "love to hate." A headline like "Samsung loses $20B of market value" gets a lot more clicks than "HTC reports another disappointing quarter." So at every opportunity expect to see some tidbit regarding Samsung's performance to become "major news." They and Apple generate 95% of mobile device profits. There may be fewer profits because of changes in the market place but the 95% of profits they both share isn't going to change. And if Apple and Samsung are "challenged" where does that leave the dozen manufacturers sharing 5% of mobile device profit?
Maybe you could install s4camera on your S3 by an rom update.... ?
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oicirbaf said:
Maybe you could install s4camera on your S3 by an rom update.... ?
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I use Omega ROM. Maybe Indie could implement that mod. I don't think it's available because I've been waiting for it since the S4 was launched. There are several S4 imitation ROMs for the S3.
Dunno if the above claim is true or not, but the reason is pretty simple.
Increased Competition.
The competition for an android based smartphone is never like before, During the days of s2 and s3 those phones were the only dominant performers with the rest of the manufacturers catching up. But now thats not the case any more, making an android based phone has become much simpler for phone companies. Get a cheaply available LCD, get a cheaply available soc like mediatek or some other, put it inside a mobile body and voila!!! there we have a new android device ready.
With the emergence of snapdragon all over in high end devices and samsung struggling to get their big little architecture right(5420 might fix all those issues), its pretty apparent that things are not looking good for sammy.
In India currently almost all mobile manufacturers have launched a quadcore phone with 720p LCD, So how will you differentiate those mobiles from the high end ones? For now the only differentiation between s3,s4 and the rest of cheaply available android phones is the amount of software goodies samsung provides as an addon and the high quality soc inside.Only time will tell on how long this will go.
The HTC One is certainly a much closer competitor to GS4 than the competition the GS3 faced last year.
If the s5 comes in one hardware version with all wcdma and lte bands enabled it will be the next best seller guaranteed!
I would be interested to see how many google gs4's will be purchased. I almost grabbed a gs4 before I heard about the google one and thats on my list to purchase two of them next week.
Sales might go up with google edition.
Sent from the state where marijuana is not illegal !
thedadio said:
If the s5 comes in one hardware version with all wcdma and lte bands enabled it will be the next best seller guaranteed!
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I'll tell you what, if the specs of the Sony Xperia Homani are real, Samsung, HTC, Apple, are all going to have to go back to drawing board. Spec wise it's going to embarrass everyone.
bala_gamer said:
The competition for an android based smartphone is never like before, During the days of s2 and s3 those phones were the only dominant performers with the rest of the manufacturers catching up. But now thats not the case any more, making an android based phone has become much simpler for phone companies. Get a cheaply available LCD, get a cheaply available soc like mediatek or some other, put it inside a mobile body and voila!!! there we have a new android device ready.
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Click to collapse
All those reasons are why everyone that's not Samsung and Apple are screwed and why the two of them own mobile device profits. Samsung and Apple control the supply chain because of their massive component commitments. They also get components on hugely favorable terms because of their volume. In Samsung's case, they even make a good deal of their own components further driving up their profit.
I'm not picking on HTC but they are a good example. They don't build a single component used in their devices. All they do is assemble the pieces they buy from third parties. Because their volume has dropped, they aren't even a tier one vendor any longer. That means they pay more per component than their competitors, don't get first priority for in-demand parts, and can have their supply chain disrupted as seen by the botched launch of the One. How are they or anyone else every going to compete against Samsung and Apple if their vendor status is lower, their component prices are higher, and have to sell products at prices determined by the market?
Micromax is a great example. They compete on price and sell largely average devices with mid-range specs and features. No one in India aspires to a Micromax phone. They buy them because Samsung and Apple are more expensive. Samsung's pushing low and mid-range devices in countries like India and China and are making more profit than companies like Micromax because their overall component costs are lower.
Samsung and Apple spend billions on promotion and branding and are both aspirational brands and have become synonymous with "premium" much like BMW, M-B, and Audi are. Between Samsung's global distribution and support infrastructure, lower component costs, and a cache brand the only thing keeping them from owning the low-end market is its lack of profitability compared to other segments their dominant in. Why would they sell a $100 USD phone in India if they didn’t have to? If someone in India could buy similarly spec'd phones from Samsung and Micromax which do you think they'd choose. Much like Apple's moving out of the premium tier with a lower-cost iPhone, Samsung will eventually push down in to lower ends of the market to protect their market share and revenue growth. And there's not a damn thing any other manufacturer can do to compete against that once they do. If phone are a commodity now like you say, and cost<>feature is relatively equal, people will buy the brand they equate with “premium.” And that’s not Micromax, Oppo, ZTE, and Huawei. At the same prices as Samsung and Apple even well-known brands like LG, HTC, Sony, and Motorola are having a hard time competing and making absolutely no profit doing it.
vapotrini said:
I'll tell you what, if the specs of the Sony Xperia Homani are real, Samsung, HTC, Apple, are all going to have to go back to drawing board. Spec wise it's going to embarrass everyone.
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I doubt Honami will be THAT great, the S800 will make it a powerful phone, sure, but other than that? I think it will be more of a Xperia Z+ type thing, better CPU/GPU and Camera, much like Xperia S to Xperia T.
http://mobile.theverge.com/2013/7/30/4570490/htc-q3-2013-guidance-first-loss-on-record
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such threads are not needed, we have been seeing them for years now
besides the verge always adds drama on top here is the proper press release
http://www.htc.com/www/about/newsroom/2013/2013-07-30-htc-reports-2013-second-quarter-results/
Taipei, Taiwan – July 30, 2013 – HTC Corporation (the Company, TWSE: 2498), a global leader in mobile innovation and design, today announced consolidated results for the Company and its subsidiaries for the second quarter of 2013.
2Q 2013 Results
HTC posted quarterly revenue of NT$70.7 billion, with gross margin of 23.2 % and operating margin of 1.5%. Net profit and EPS were NT$1.25 billion and NT$1.50, respectively.
“My leadership team continues to focus on execution,” said Peter Chou, CEO of HTC. “We are seeing expected results as we fill the channels and meet demand for the new HTC One. As we broaden our focus to include a new member of the HTC One family, the recently announced One mini, we are looking forward to delivering great products and results in 2H.”
HTC announced key appointments, including Jack Yang to president of South Asia, Sirpa Ikola to senior director of marketing for South Asia, and Lorain Wong to vice president of global PR.
As manufacturing ramped up, the US saw sequential growth in 2Q, as well as expansion in retail channels. EMEA saw renewed strength in major Western European markets and emerging countries.
Progress was observed across Asia. HTC gained market share in Taiwan, showing an improved presence in Hong Kong and warm reception of its products by consumers in Japan. In China, sales of HTC’s high-end models improved, while competition at the mid-tier and affordable intensified. In South Asia, the improvement of key operator relationships provides optimism about the region.
3Q 2013 Outlook
The Company’s outlook for the second quarter of 2013 is as follows:
- 3Q revenue is expected to be in the range of NT$50bn to NT$60bn
- Gross profit margin is expected to be in the range of 18% to 21%
- Operating margin is expected to be in the range of 0% to -8%
The new HTC One has performed well in the market, better than that of our hero products for the same period last year. We aim to extend the momentum as we enter into the second half of 2013. The new HTC One has also helped the company establish strong brand awareness and received numerous accolades as the world’s best smart phone. With the help of HTC One, we have regained superphone market share across major markets including China.
We also have plans underway to launch a range of innovative and competitive mid-tier products in the coming months. We hope to regain momentum and market share in these segments in Q4. This will address our challenge of mid-tier products competiveness
Our overall gross margin has been impacted by the relatively higher cost structure, lack of economy of scale and certain provisions needed to facilitate the clearance of aging products in the channel. Actions have been taken and we expect to see improvement in Q4
We are also optimizing our organization, including the improvement of management efficiency and effectiveness.
People, innovations, and technology are the core assets of HTC. We will continue to invest in innovations and technology, as well as retaining and rewarding our best talents. We look forward to a brighter future for HTC and continue to delight our customers with the best and most exciting products
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you can see clearly that they state, the One is getting them more revenue then last year flagships, but they fall short on the low end side of sales, also they have extra expenses for this quarter causing the predicted loss waste of profit
- 3Q revenue is expected to be in the range of NT$50bn to NT$60bn
- Gross profit margin is expected to be in the range of 18% to 21%
- Operating margin is expected to be in the range of 0% to -8%
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That's a pretty optimistic viewpoint you posted @hamdir. Almost makes it seem like HTC has turned the corner and poised for a rebound (which we all know is far from the truth). Here's Reuters not so optimistic perspective.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/30/us-htc-guidance-idUSBRE96T0B920130730
jlevy73 said:
That's a pretty optimistic viewpoint you posted @hamdir. Almost makes it seem like HTC has turned the corner and poised for a rebound (which we all know is far from the truth). Here's Reuters not so optimistic perspective.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/30/us-htc-guidance-idUSBRE96T0B920130730
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what view? i posted HTC's own press release, they explain pretty clearly that their old inventory and lack of mid / low range competition will cause the predict lack of gross margins, tons of positive in the press release as well such as the HTC One performance and their improvements in Asian markets
meanwhile HTC is hard at work for the next flagship while you guys are busy with their profit or losses
does anyone still follows how much Nokia or Sony are loosing? or when they rebound?
Financial up and downs is normal for any company in my opinion and as far as im concerned it's non of my business, i have an amazing smartphone thanks to them and i don't need to contemplate their finance
here is something interesting from your own link
"Even a hero product can't save them," he said, adding that a partnership with another firm - a possibility CEO Peter Chou has said he would look at - was one of the few strong options open to HTC.
Although HTC is expected to soon launch the HTC One Mini, Samsung and Apple are also likely to announce their own new offerings later this year. A planned marketing blitz, which includes enlisting Robert Downey Jr. for a reported $12 million to star in its ad campaigns, is expected to weigh on profit margins.
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---------- Post added at 02:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:45 PM ----------
more details here
http://focustaiwan.tw/search/201307300029.aspx?q=htc
HTC said its overall gross margin has been impacted by the relatively higher cost structure, lack of economy of scale and certain provisions needed to facilitate the clearance of aging products in the channel.
Peter Chou, chief executive officer of HTC, said the company is taking action to reduce the cost of some key components used in its products, such as displays and mechanical parts, and that the improvements will be apparent in the fourth quarter.
In addition, HTC plans to launch a new range of mid-tier phones in the late third quarter or early fourth quarter to increase its economy of scale and leverage its product portfolio, Chou said.
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"We are bearish on the company in the longer term as it continues to struggle in the premium smartphone segment despite having a good product, while it remains uncompetitive in the low-end segment," Cheng said, who set a price target of NT$145 on the stock.
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Sony and HTC merge and we're gonna have a good time.
I Am Marino said:
Sony and HTC merge and we're gonna have a good time.
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My dream
It's alot of over analyzing but it sure makes me worry. They can't even seem to pump put timely updates at this point... Even to their developer and GE editions. Can't blame the carriers holding up the updates on those...
Sent from my HTC One using xda premium
hamdir said:
Meanwhile HTC is hard at work for the next flagship while you guys are busy wit their profit or losses
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There's nothing in anything that's been posted that's even remotely uplifting regarding HTC's future.
The One's without question the best phone HTC's ever made yet revenue, profit, and market share are down.
Their guidance for Q3 is projected to be down 30% YOY and Q3 includes their projected revenue for the Mini, Max, and any other devices launching during the quarter.
HTC's cost base is f'd because of their loss of scale. They weren't a "tier one" supplier even with the One's idealistic sales goals which means they pay more than their competitors for the same components and aren't given preference when parts are in scarce supply.
Samsung's monolithic and LG/Sony have deep pocketed parent companies with diverse product lines. Motorola's owned by Google. HTC's too small to compete with those companies as well as the Chinese with their low cost base and priority in the Chinese market.
For the eighth quarter in a row we've discussed HTC's "come back" and for the eighth quarter they've posted continually crappy results with their forward guidance showing no relief. The HTC brand may continue through an acquisition but the company itself is pretty much dead. And that's not my opinion, it's the analyst's which, after these results, all have "sell" ratings on the stock.
hamdir said:
such threads are not needed, we have been seeing them for years now
besides the verge always adds drama on top here is the proper press release
http://www.htc.com/www/about/newsroom/2013/2013-07-30-htc-reports-2013-second-quarter-results/
you can see clearly that they state, the One is getting them more revenue then last year flagships, but they fall short on the low end side of sales, also they have extra expenses for this quarter causing the predicted loss waste of profit
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Than.
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HTC is definitely in trouble. The One is an insanely great device and yet they just had their worst quarter. That sounds pretty bad. And again, with the 5s, budget iphone, note 3 and others I don't know how htc can turn this around.
Like Barry said htc is too small of a company at the end of the day. Sony, apple, LG, Samsung are huge companies that have more resources and you need deep pockets to compete. A merge with another company is almost certain at this point.
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Not to be redundant, but this one from Engadget has a positive tone to it.
HTC: the One is selling better than last year's hero products, but next quarter may see a loss
the previous Q2 profit results were good (reported last month)
and these are Q3 projections, considering the stated reasons
i never discussed a come back, all i said companies for a long time can survive with such up and down, we have tons of examples
come to think of it, Asus and HTC merge makes perfect Sense
Same country, Asus sucks in branding and worldwide distribution of it's products, their smartphone side isn't doing so great but they rock in pc and tablets, while HTC is specializes in smartphones exclusively
Asus only sucks in availability of their mobile stuff though. All their PC parts are available every part of the world. If they applied the same resources with the same enthusiasm + a HTC merger, it would be awesomely awesome beyond awesomeness.
hamdir said:
the previous Q2 profit results were good (reported last month)
and these are Q3 projections, considering the stated reasons
i never discussed a come back, all i said companies for a long time can survive with such up and down, we have tons of examples
come to think of it, Asus and HTC merge makes perfect Sense
Same country, Asus sucks in branding and worldwide distribution of it's products, their smartphone side isn't doing so great but they rock in pc and tablets, while HTC is specializes in smartphones exclusively
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Q2 was awful compared to last year's Q2 which is the most relevant comparison. Q-2-Q comparisons don't take in to account seasonality and other trends. And aging inventory is corporate speak for we overestimated demand and/or the competition is eating our lunch. Microsoft writing down $1B because of the Surface's lackluster sales is a good example. What's going to change for HTC? The One's not helping much and the Max and Mini launch is factored in to their Q3 quidance which projects a loss. Their previous focus on the high-end has made them a late comer in emerging markets. Even there their lack of scale makes an identically spec'd HTC phone more expensive to build than their competitors phones. So the high-end (the One) didn't save them and with limited distribution, higher component prices, and no brand loyalty in the price-focused lower tiers it's hard to envision them making much headway there. All the drivel about a bright future is coming from Peter Chou who's decisions and direction got HTC in to the mess they are currently in. His words kind of remind me of "I'll gladly pay you tomorrow for two hamburgers today." And the impact of their financial condition is already being felt by their customers; ask a One S owner.
HTC would survive just like BlackBerry. Would take a very long time to get back on track. I hope mini and ultra boost up their prifits
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Will be rooting for this underdog!
Sent from my HTC One using xda premium
BarryH_GEG said:
Q2 was awful compared to last year's Q2 which is the most relevant comparison. Q-2-Q comparisons don't take in to account seasonality and other trends. And aging inventory is corporate speak for we overestimated demand and/or the competition is eating our lunch. Microsoft writing down $1B because of the Surface's lackluster sales is a good example. What's going to change for HTC? The One's not helping much and the Max and Mini launch is factored in to their Q3 quidance which projects a loss. Their previous focus on the high-end has made them a late comer in emerging markets. Even there their lack of scale makes an identically spec'd HTC phone more expensive to build than their competitors phones. So the high-end (the One) didn't save them and with limited distribution, higher component prices, and no brand loyalty in the price-focused lower tiers it's hard to envision them making much headway there. All the drivel about a bright future is coming from Peter Chou who's decisions and direction got HTC in to the mess they are currently in. His words kind of remind me of "I'll gladly pay you tomorrow for two hamburgers today." And the impact of their financial condition is already being felt by their customers; ask a One S owner.
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mateeeeeee the One S is well documented already, the reason for the update drop is that Qualcomm stopped supporting snapdragon 3 and hence didn't provide the drivers for 4.2.2
the One S s4 will most likely receive it, as football said the work restarted on the OTA
also this story was confirmed by shen
I'm done here, it was my mistake to enter the financial discussions again
peace
Blackberry would be the one to fall before HTC. HTC, will come back around..
Sammy and Apple love the attention. Ads Ads Ads Ads. It sinks into peoples heads, that these phones are the latest a and greatest that other phones are garbage to them. All in marketing control.. That's why you see more 15 yr old girls with iPhone more and more everyday. Its all about how you advertise. More advertisement the more you will get out of it. $$$
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Trouble Trouble
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