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What do you think WinMo 7 is going to be like? Do you trust Microsoft to not screw it up? Do you think HTC will really give us a free update for our Leos?
I think it would be fantastic if they released a Beta version for the public to test like with Windows 7, but it doesn't seem like that's going to happen, which makes me nervous.
Hopefully the Zune team has a say in the design, cause they seem to have their **** together.
I'm guessing it's going to be a combination between WM 6.5, Android, Iphone OS and Zune. Honestly I'm hoping for something revolutionary.
MS didn't mess up Windows 7 so there's no reason to think WM7 will be any different.
Think positive.
I think a beta test would be positive for them anyways, especially to beat down all the rumors and to give people a reason to wait/want those WinMo devices, guaranteeing the availability of WinMo phones by the time it releases to the world in final form.
If they don't act swift in these times there would be no manufacturer left to distribute to and it would pretty much be at the brink of death (= even more pressure)..
However, once they bring out a public beta, IPhone OS and Android might actually get inspired by it and anticipate before it is even released, making it less spectacular.
Yep, there are two sides on this.. I hope it'll be as revolutionary as they are implying.
laserviking said:
Do you trust Microsoft to not screw it up? Do you think HTC will really give us a free update for our Leos?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No and definitely no.
I hope MS knocks it out of the park. But, I don't understand how they are going to leverage all of the legacy apps and their ugly interfaces and some new-age GUI.
If they decide to kill off all the old stuff and start fresh, then it technically isn't Windows Mobile anymore because none of the 1000's of WM apps will be compatible. Maybe there will be some sort of compatibility mode for the old stuff?
All of the "iPhone killers" died because of the following reasons:
1) No iTunes. Nowadays, services are more crucial to sucess than hardware specs. Direct-to-device music, movies and books is a killer feature.
2) User-experience less than iPhone's. The iPhones killer feature is it's fluidity and lightning fast response of it's GUI. You can't hate such speed.
3) Single form factor. Developers know how their apps will behave whereas WM apps have to cater to the various types of WM phones. Screen resolution, graphics acceleration, d-pad, optical mouse, fingerprint sensor, accelerometer, touchscreen, keyboard ? All of these options hinder software development for WM.
Microsoft is the only company that can battle Apple on all three fronts right away. For services they have Zune, Bing mobile, for gaming XBox, Windows Live/MyPhone, Exchange, Office, Windows Desktop. All of this needs to be thoroughly incorporated into its WM7 platform.
I just hope MS doesn't market WM7 as some cheap alternative to iPhone. WM7 needs to be a great OS GUI-wise but also offer services equivalent to iTunes on a super-powerful hardware platform with no less than cutting edge specs. It appears MS is on this path but I don't know how great the end product is going to be. My fingers are crossed.
OMG can we please close this? Totally useless speculation.
If you have no clue, just don't post. I know a lot but I won't tell you anything, just wait for MWC and stop the silly speculation.
EDIT: WhyBe, your post is actually very intelligent. That's why I'll give you a hint: Trust MS to do exactly what you expect
(though not all is perfect)
Oh and @Shasarak: I told you before, but I will tell you again: Ruling out any possibility without actually having a clue is stupid
You always pretend to know what you're talking about, but you actually know nothing at all. And, you know, drawing conclusions from nothing at all is just silly. Much more so than those speculators who at least admit that they've got no clue.
Freyberry you are one wound up dude. It's pretty normal to speculate on this kind of thing and hope that there will be change for the better. Given WinMo's awful track record and Windows recent push for usability everyone is speculating how it's gonna be.
"I know a lot but I won't tell you anything"... I'm getting flashbacks to the school playground here
mark0326 said:
MS didn't mess up Windows 7 so there's no reason to think WM7 will be any different.
Think positive.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Basically this.
Also, Microsoft hasn't messed anything up since Windows Vista.
Microsoft is on a hot streak right now, and I don't see any reason that should end anytime soon. Ballmer even beat Jobs to the punch with tablets.
And not only did Ballmer beat Jobs [to the punch], he punched harder too.
The only thing Apple et cetera has going for them at the moment is populism. People like Apple and they don't like Microsoft, probably because Apple tries to make tech appeal to the lowest common denominator, whereas Microsoft makes tech appeal to the enthusiast, while giving the lowest common denominator sufficient attention that they'll be at least able to passably use whatever product is in-question.
WhyBe said:
I hope MS knocks it out of the park. But, I don't understand how they are going to leverage all of the legacy apps and their ugly interfaces and some new-age GUI.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Look at Windows and Internet Explorer.
Microsoft is positively the master of backwards compatibility.
WhyBe said:
If they decide to kill off all the old stuff and start fresh, then it technically isn't Windows Mobile anymore because none of the 1000's of WM apps will be compatible. Maybe there will be some sort of compatibility mode for the old stuff?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So is Windows 7 not Windows because 16-bit Windows 3.1 apps won't run on it?
Not saying at all that Microsoft will kill of backwards compatibility. The Windows Mobile family is just too new for us to see backwards compatibility die off -- at least if Microsoft sticks with their current paradigm.
Windows was backwards-compatible with Windows 3.1 for over 17 years.
WhyBe said:
[/B]1) No iTunes. Nowadays, services are more crucial to sucess than hardware specs. Direct-to-device music, movies and books is a killer feature.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you're insinuating that Microsoft should do anything like iTunes, then I suggest that you just get out right now. iTunes is an example of everything a device experience shouldn't be. The ActiveSync paradigm is brilliant -- an application to sync your device if you want, with your device retaining the ability to act on its own.
iTunes isn't about user experience, it's about locking you in, and that's the biggest strength Microsoft products in general have -- you can do whatever you want.
WhyBe said:
2) User-experience less than iPhone's. The iPhones killer feature is it's fluidity and lightning fast response of it's GUI. You can't hate such speed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Look at Windows 7. They're knocking the ball out of the park on GUI design these days, just look at the massive steps forward from 6.1 to 6.5, and now to 6.5.3.
And, they're taking their time on Windows Mobile 7. I'd rather wait and get something great than something that's rushed out of the gates.
WhyBe said:
3) Single form factor. Developers know how their apps will behave whereas WM apps have to cater to the various types of WM phones. Screen resolution, graphics acceleration, d-pad, optical mouse, fingerprint sensor, accelerometer, touchscreen, keyboard ? All of these options hinder software development for WM.[/I]
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Again, I suggest you just get out right now. Go buy your Apple products and enjoy your "single form factor". Microsoft doesn't play this game. You buy Windows, you don't buy a Microsoft computer, you buy Exchange, you don't buy a Microsoft mail server.
Their biggest strength is the fact that they don't have a single form factor. They do what they're good at -- software design -- and let the hardware designers do what they're good at.
WhyBe said:
Microsoft is the only company that can battle Apple on all three fronts right away. For services they have Zune, Bing mobile, for gaming XBox, Windows Live/MyPhone, Exchange, Office, Windows Desktop. All of this needs to be thoroughly incorporated into its WM7 platform.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Again, if you want Apple-like lock-in, go play with an iPhone. I doubt Microsoft is going to go this route, and if they do, they'll lose me as a customer. The strength of Windows and Microsoft products is the fact that you're not locked in. You're given an operating system and you're free to do whatever you want with it.
If you want someone to tell you how to do what you want to do with your device, rather than merely giving you the choice, go bend over for Steve Jobs.
Get out.
WhyBe said:
services equivalent to iTunes
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You mean lock-in?
If you're insinuating that Microsoft should do anything like iTunes, then I suggest that you just get out right now. iTunes is an example of everything a device experience shouldn't be. The ActiveSync paradigm is brilliant -- an application to sync your device if you want, with your device retaining the ability to act on its own.
^^^^^zune marketplace says hello
I certain hope there's no 'itunes' or 'single form factor', unless it's going to be their Zune phone, which I won't be buying.
I'm probably not who the new phone OSes are designed for. I just want to be able to copy files directly to it, use it for what I need, don't want to share data with them, don't really use social networks.
Spike15 said:
Basically this.
Also, Microsoft hasn't messed anything up since Windows Vista.
Microsoft is on a hot streak right now, and I don't see any reason that should end anytime soon. Ballmer even beat Jobs to the punch with tablets.
And not only did Ballmer beat Jobs [to the punch], he punched harder too.
The only thing Apple et cetera has going for them at the moment is populism. People like Apple and they don't like Microsoft, probably because Apple tries to make tech appeal to the lowest common denominator, whereas Microsoft makes tech appeal to the enthusiast, while giving the lowest common denominator sufficient attention that they'll be at least able to passably use whatever product is in-question.
Look at Windows and Internet Explorer.
Microsoft is positively the master of backwards compatibility.
So is Windows 7 not Windows because 16-bit Windows 3.1 apps won't run on it?
Not saying at all that Microsoft will kill of backwards compatibility. The Windows Mobile family is just too new for us to see backwards compatibility die off -- at least if Microsoft sticks with their current paradigm.
Windows was backwards-compatible with Windows 3.1 for over 17 years.
If you're insinuating that Microsoft should do anything like iTunes, then I suggest that you just get out right now. iTunes is an example of everything a device experience shouldn't be. The ActiveSync paradigm is brilliant -- an application to sync your device if you want, with your device retaining the ability to act on its own.
iTunes isn't about user experience, it's about locking you in, and that's the biggest strength Microsoft products in general have -- you can do whatever you want.
Look at Windows 7. They're knocking the ball out of the park on GUI design these days, just look at the massive steps forward from 6.1 to 6.5, and now to 6.5.3.
And, they're taking their time on Windows Mobile 7. I'd rather wait and get something great than something that's rushed out of the gates.
Again, I suggest you just get out right now. Go buy your Apple products and enjoy your "single form factor". Microsoft doesn't play this game. You buy Windows, you don't buy a Microsoft computer, you buy Exchange, you don't buy a Microsoft mail server.
Their biggest strength is the fact that they don't have a single form factor. They do what they're good at -- software design -- and let the hardware designers do what they're good at.
Again, if you want Apple-like lock-in, go play with an iPhone. I doubt Microsoft is going to go this route, and if they do, they'll lose me as a customer. The strength of Windows and Microsoft products is the fact that you're not locked in. You're given an operating system and you're free to do whatever you want with it.
If you want someone to tell you how to do what you want to do with your device, rather than merely giving you the choice, go bend over for Steve Jobs.
Get out.
You mean lock-in?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well Said. The only problem is that people really beleive what apple says.
If one said RIM & blackbery i would sort of listened. but iPhone! it doesn't do multitasking it's not an OS, it's a frimware
I do believe that WM7 is gonna be something that we didn't even think about. i don't know, maybe bringing another dimention to the scrolling? Vertical + Horizontal + Depth? that would be cool.
btw, why do we think that WM7 will be blue?
anaadoul said:
btw, why do we think that WM7 will be blue?
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Click to collapse
lol! Blue always comes to my mind when I try to imagine WM7. Maybe because windows xp, vista and 7 are by default blue?
I wonder if WM7 will actually be black! like the zune hd interface. will be really cool!
laserviking said:
Freyberry you are one wound up dude. It's pretty normal to speculate on this kind of thing and hope that there will be change for the better. Given WinMo's awful track record and Windows recent push for usability everyone is speculating how it's gonna be.
"I know a lot but I won't tell you anything"... I'm getting flashbacks to the school playground here
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah school playground... lol, grow up, little child. Maybe I'm not allowed to tell you something? Ever thought about this simple fact?
I already told you too much. Just re-read my post, you'll see it contains a LOT of info.
And NO, I do NOT work for Microsoft, nor HTC.
About all the speculation: It's OK if you speculate what it will/won't be, but what is very annoying is when
a) people complain about things that are pure speculation
b) people pretend they know something by using words like "definitely", despite that they actually know nothing
@anaadoul @mightymn It will be blue/grey
(but only by default, cause it's very customizable)
Btw. those are worth watching:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC0cxzLhFqM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXfJZzeSZ0U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0typyfPG_4
@freyberry
In the absense of better information I'm happy to accept that you know 'stuff' and logically, if you do know 'stuff', you probably oughtn't to talk about it.
So in that spirit, if you were to randomly throw a dart at a calendar in the interests of picking a date - entirely at random - when the wider community might start seeing pre-release or beta versions appearing, what would be your hunch for where that random dart might land?
Nice topic, it is fun to hear what everybody expects from WM7
I am very confused about WM7... one day I am all happy and can't wait for WM7.. the next day I am not so sure about it anymore... MicroSoft can really go either way IMO.
At the best:
- Brilliant new OS: Nice looking UI, smooth, stable, NEW features the other OS's don't have, good services like Zune, Xbox Live, etc. But most important...
A GOOD APPSTORE.
If all goes wrong...:
- Minor update of 6.5.3, some small UI changes, Zune, Xbox Live.
-------------------------
In the end if I just look at my HTC HD2, and think very clearly: what is missing? I think of the following:
- HTC Sense is nice, but it just does not come together with WM. I would like it to become 'one'. HTC Sense can also get a little bit slow sometimes. I would prefer a HTC Sense in the styl of HTC Hero, with the widgets.
- I want perfect stability of the OS: no more crashes, no more lagging.
- I want more App Support. I want a decent official AppStore. I don't need 140.000 apps, but I want it to be a succes. So not like the current 'AppStore' which is dead.
That's it. Zune and Xbox Live support are not even so important to me. These 3 points I mentioned are a MUST for WM7. Now that I look at it, the iPhone has all of these 3 points. I guess in the end I can not escape the fact that the iPhone OS is brilliant. That plus the awesome hardware offered by the HTC HD2 will make it a beast.
And regarding if HTC will give us the update for free: I hope so, I thing the chances are 50/50. But even if they want some money for it, I will pay it. Up to 15 euro, not more.
Come on Microsoft, show us you can, like you did with Windows 7, Xbox 360 and Zune!
@Gustopher
Nicely put, but unfortunately, I can not give you any satisfying answer.
I have no access to pre-release/beta versions, therefore I can only hope that something will leak soon. I don't think there will be a public/official beta.
After MWC, they will give more people access to the software, which will increase the probability of a leak.
Let's hope we won't have to wait until HTC releases an official upgrade, cause you know how long that usually takes.
WM7 definitely looks good (and yes, I may use the word "definitely", cause I know it). But Microsoft is doing a "great" job at scattering confusing/contradictory pieces of information, thus I'm just as anxious as you to see all the pieces come together.
freyberry said:
@Gustopher
Nicely put, but unfortunately, I can not give you any satisfying answer.
I have no access to pre-release/beta versions, therefore I can only hope that something will leak soon. I don't think there will be a public/official beta.
After MWC, they will give more people access to the software, which will increase the probability of a leak.
Let's hope we won't have to wait until HTC releases an official upgrade, cause you know how long that usually takes.
WM7 definitely looks good (and yes, I may use the word "definitely", cause I know it). But Microsoft is doing a "great" job at scattering confusing/contradictory pieces of information, thus I'm just as anxious as you to see all the pieces come together.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Understood and thanks. If I were to try to paraphrase, your - let's call it a hunch - elements of the OS are coming together but it's not quite at alpha/beta stage...but could be relatively soon.
So maybe waiting is the best tactic...
Waiting is certainly the best tactic. However, I fear some of the most important questions will not be answered at MWC, at least not officially.
(I don't mean the UI, I mean core functionality/services/compatibility etc., cause that's what I don't know about and have lots of questions - that's the pieces I want to see come together)
Ah well, let's turn this into a wild speculation thread, shall we? Just let me get the popcorn first....
...OK, here we go:
ppcgeeks said:
-At the Mobile World Congress event on February 15th, 2010, Windows Phone 7 will be unveilved, although at this time plans are only to unveil the user interface of the new platform . Specific indepth functionality of the device will most likely not be shown.
-The User Interface is based upon codename “METRO”. It will be very similar to the Zune HD User Interface with a complete revamp of the “Start” screen. The UI is “Very Clean”, “Soulful” and “Alive” [<-- That I can confirm.]
-Unfortunately there will be no Flash support at the get go as there was not enough time to implement these features.
-Windows Phone 7 will only support application installation through service based delivery. (i.e Marketplace). Application installation via storage card will not be possible.
- No Multi-Task support. Applications will “Pause” when in the background, however will support notifications via push notifications.
-Marketplace will now support “try before you buy” as well as an API
-No NETCF backwards compatibility. This means the original rumor of no backward compatibility for applications holds to be true. That being said, there are high hopes of porting the NetCF to the newer platform easily.
-Microsoft is confident that devices will be ready by September 2010
-Full Zune Integration
-Windows Mobile Device Center will no longer be used. Zune software to take over syncing via PC.
-OEM Interfaces will not be allowed to run on the device. Say goodbye to Sense UI / SPB Mobile Shell / Point UI / Infinity, etc, etc
-Full XBOX Gaming Integration (Gamer tag, achievements, friends, avatars, merchandising, etc)
-Full support for social networking
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Source: http://www.ppcgeeks.com/2010/02/06/...ndows-phone-7-details-emerge-from-the-depths/
Flame on! Hahahaha...
freyberry said:
Waiting is certainly the best tactic. However, I fear some of the most important questions will not be answered at MWC, at least not officially.
(I don't mean the UI, I mean core functionality/services/compatibility etc., cause that's what I don't know about and have lots of questions - that's the pieces I want to see come together)
Ah well, let's turn this into a wild speculation thread, shall we? Just let me get the popcorn first....
...OK, here we go:
Source: http://www.ppcgeeks.com/2010/02/06/...ndows-phone-7-details-emerge-from-the-depths/
Flame on! Hahahaha...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i don't like that!
let's hope it's not true! i have always loved WM because it's so open.
no .net cf?! no way, this will mean loosing the whole developers community! i disagree with you i'm afraid
@freyberry
how can you tell all this? i'm close to MS here in my region and they didn't say anything and not willing to, notice that they support WindowsPhoneMiddleEast Community which i lead (look at my signature).
Hello guys,
I'm glad to write the first post in this section.
We've all seen the Microsoft Windows Phone Summit this morning (evening) and had to notice, that they've focused on an "Complete Security Platform". Due to their "Enterprise Ready - Fundamentals", they implemented a Secure Boot and Bitlocker Encryption.
This will be very good for all of you, who are depending on a phone, that doesen't share all it's data if it's getting stolen etc.. But those of you, who built application for customization or any further experience, will get stuck.
I'd really like to discuss these news with you.
(Is the microSD support a hint for a sideloading possibility?)
It has already been hard from an interop to a full unlock for the existing devices. The Lumia 900 is up to now unaccessible...
Will this be a disadvantage in comparison to the Android strategy?
All comments are welcome!!!
Titus
This is still all brand new, so I imagine later that someone will be provided with a prototype of some sort and may be able to answer those questions? I think we should start a donation for the pioneers of homebrew on WP so we can get something good done =)
Sent from my SGH-i917 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
Some pages state that there will be sideloading capabilities. I don't see those happen unless Microsoft is pretty sure that those can't be used to deploy Warez. Also companies will be able to deploy their own software so there has to be an alternate way to deploy software aside from the Marketplace.
But an official side load option would amount to pretty much the same as a current Developer unlock and deeper going functionality as what is provided by Interop/Full-Unlocks won't be available that way.
It is going to be interesting to get around those as the NT Kernel is likely to be a harder nut to crack than whatever Microsoft threw together on top of CE6 for WP7.
StevieBallz said:
Some pages state that there will be sideloading capabilities. I don't see those happen unless Microsoft is pretty sure that those can't be used to deploy Warez. Also companies will be able to deploy their own software so there has to be an alternate way to deploy software aside from the Marketplace.
But an official side load option would amount to pretty much the same as a current Developer unlock and deeper going functionality as what is provided by Interop/Full-Unlocks won't be available that way.
It is going to be interesting to get around those as the NT Kernel is likely to be a harder nut to crack than whatever Microsoft threw together on top of CE6 for WP7.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agreed. It will be difficult to break and it may take some time, but good thing we have some awesome people that are devoted to making it happen
hack is possible
I think were looking at this from the wrong perspective. The App developers for Windows 8 Metro will be key in the implementation of hacking the Windows 8 phone. As Microsoft stated, this phone 8 will work harmoniously with 8 metro.
Windows 8 Metro is comprised of at least 80% HTML5 coded APPS. HTML5 has huge advantages that have been exploited before in the past.
So, If Windows phone 8 is comprised of similar HTML5 code. I'm sure developers will be able to comprise a boot hack to enable sideloading.
:good:
Shaggykjb said:
I think were looking at this from the wrong perspective. The App developers for Windows 8 Metro will be key in the implementation of hacking the Windows 8 phone. As Microsoft stated, this phone 8 will work harmoniously with 8 metro.
Windows 8 Metro is comprised of at least 80% HTML5 coded APPS. HTML5 has huge advantages that have been exploited before in the past.
So, If Windows phone 8 is comprised of similar HTML5 code. I'm sure developers will be able to comprise a boot hack to enable sideloading.
:good:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I wouldn't say a boot hack could be seen anytime soon due to bitlocker and secure boot.
Have you seen any exploits on the current Windows 8 through HTML5? Since Microsoft's implementations of ANYTHING are always different (Even when they say it is compliant), I would imagine that the HTML5 on W8 won't have the same exploits. I'm thinking it will be quite difficult, but I wouldn't say impossible. That's why I think we need the current WP7 hackers or even the Android hackers in on this... The ones that know and understand the low-level aspects of x86 and ARM to be able to know what is going on behind the scenes and try to get around it. Given that a good bit of the second gen windows phones still aren't able to be interop-unlocked and sideloaded, I am sure Microsoft has patched the ways those backdoors in w8 and wp8.
As so much Malware was installed through IE previously Microsoft did a great deal of work to harden it against Exploits. But furthermore it would only be the first step to find a vulnerability in the browser or an HTML5-App.
IE itself is run in it's own OS compartment which runs below regular user rights. So if code gets run in the Browser context it effectively can't do very much. This is one of the reasons why desktop exploits started to rely more heavily on Flash and Adobe Reader Bugs (those plugins ran on user privileges).
The HTML5-Apps are most likely to execute in the least priviledged chamber separated from each other very much alike to the way WP7s Silverlight Apps are isolated from each other.
Given that I guess it will need people who understand the system architecture pretty well to crack it open. The easiest vector for getting Homebrew Apps on most likely is the LOB (Line of Business)-App support.
Even if you were to find an exploit, it's highly doubtful that it will give you anything. WP8 is with UEFI Secure Boot something entirely new in that aspect, in that it's likely to see a full bottom-up chain of trust. You'd likely need to break UEFI itself to get any binaries persistently with elevated privileges. If the UEFI firmware is not upgradable on the device (for instanced burned on the chip) the protection is unlike for current phones theoretically perfect.
Of course, it remains to be seen in what extend WP8 will validate signatures, but if say any elevated code needs signing, then a permanent full/root unlock is very unlikely to achieve.
Hard SPL unlocks as they're seen with the Titan and Radar will also be a matter of the past with WP8.
TitusO said:
Hello guys,
I'm glad to write the first post in this section.
We've all seen the Microsoft Windows Phone Summit this morning (evening) and had to notice, that they've focused on an "Complete Security Platform". Due to their "Enterprise Ready - Fundamentals", they implemented a Secure Boot and Bitlocker Encryption.
This will be very good for all of you, who are depending on a phone, that doesen't share all it's data if it's getting stolen etc.. But those of you, who built application for customization or any further experience, will get stuck.
I'd really like to discuss these news with you.
(Is the microSD support a hint for a sideloading possibility?)
It has already been hard from an interop to a full unlock for the existing devices. The Lumia 900 is up to now unaccessible...
Will this be a disadvantage in comparison to the Android strategy?
All comments are welcome!!!
Titus
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i think if memory card access and file access as in symbian and android is available in windows 8 then we can sideload apps if not its impossible as inh lumia 900
vickylance said:
i think if memory card access and file access as in symbian and android is available in windows 8 then we can sideload apps if not its impossible as inh lumia 900
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You have removable SD card support and can install applications to it. However, Microsoft stated that sideloading is only available for enterprises for a (nominal) fee. Meaning, it's highly likely that the phone will check signatures on all applications, including those on the SD card and you won't be able to run them otherwise. (actually WP7 does this already - if your devel unlock expires and the phone relocks, all unsigned apps will not run anymore)
ZetaZynK said:
However, Microsoft stated that sideloading is only available for enterprises for a (nominal) fee.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Have you got any source for Microsoft anouncing a fee per device to allow this. To my knowledge not much is yet announced in that regard. We know that there will be a cloud based solution for Management/Deployment (most likely inTune) and an on premise one.
According to CNet Asia a Microsoft Employee during Technet told them that SD-Card installation meant installation from SD-Card instead of App-Installation to the SD-Card (see here: http://asia.cnet.com/apps-cannot-be-installed-to-microsd-cards-on-wp8-62217133.htm)
The latest rumor is that WP8 will include TPM chips on all handsets. Thus will drive added hardware security to the firmware. I am feeling very skeptical that WP8 will be rootable as a result. I have a TPM system in my Win 8 laptop and it is damned secure.
Sent from my Kindle Fire running ICS
StevieBallz said:
Have you got any source for Microsoft anouncing a fee per device to allow this. To my knowledge not much is yet announced in that regard. We know that there will be a cloud based solution for Management/Deployment (most likely inTune) and an on premise one.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hm, I believed I had read this, but seems you're correct. Not sure where I believed to have done so right now.
kenikh said:
The latest rumor is that WP8 will include TPM chips on all handsets.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
TPM is not the problem here - secure boot is. Considering Microsoft announced secure boot as part of the WP8 announcement, it's kind of likely that all devices will ship it.
Secure boot and a TPM both can deliver a trusted boot path, but with significant differences in the execution. With a TPM you store a key and Platform Context Registers (PCRs) on the module - if the PCRs mismatch then some part of the configuration was altered which is likely indicating a breach of trust in the boot path. With Secure Boot, one or more vendor generated keys (and not a self-generated one, like on a TPM)are stored in the system's firmware. If the boot loader is not signed by one of those keys, the device refuses to boot. This means that you can't replace the boot loader with custom code (as you do with for instance a HSPL). In a TPM-based scenario, the user can re-assign TPM ownership, Secure Boot has no such concept.
Note: x86 PCs will come with Secure Boot too, soon. However, MSFT requires ARM devices to have these keys assigned by the OEM and requires the manufacturer to allow changing the keys or disabling Secure Boot - for x86, they require the opposite, a PC without an option to add your own keys or to disable secure boot would fail the Windows 8 hardware certification.
If you come across the information again please let us know. There seems to be some confusion on the SD card topic (WinSuperSite reported differently).
As for secure boot and the TPM: if Microsoft decides to make CustomROMs hard the best course of action seems to emulate the "Enterprise Marketplace" given the assumption that those won't user Microsoft certificates but instead company certificates (which could be installed by the user similarily to the Exchange server certificates today). But we'll have to wait and see how that gets implemented in the end.
PS: Just found the following on Microsofts Windows Phone Developer Blog
LOB app deployment – Many enterprises understandably want to keep their line-of-business (LOB) apps in-house, controlling how they get published and deployed. In Windows Phone 8, we support several new channels for deploying LOB apps to enterprise devices, including installing from a website, SharePoint, or email.
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Sounds pretty much like sideloading might be a lot easier then we think it is.
Here is the problem with this... We're going to see DRM to the max. This has a chance of ruining the experience, just look at Apple recently. Also side-loading could be bad for the OS as look at Google with the possible Botnet + Trojans.
More importantly as a Dev, I fear more than anything, my code will be stolen, even if I Obfuscate the XAP. I rather my App be taken than my coding be compromised.
lseidman said:
Here is the problem with this... We're going to see DRM to the max. This has a chance of ruining the experience, just look at Apple recently.
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Microsoft ruins the experience for WP7s even more imho. There's really a lot of essential stuff that unlocked WP7s can do, but that stock WP7 is unable to do.
lseidman said:
Also side-loading could be bad for the OS as look at Google with the possible Botnet + Trojans.
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This can be easily worked around: If they just made developer unlocks free (keeping the same deployment system as is), that would make it near to impossible for malware to spread.
lseidman said:
More importantly as a Dev, I fear more than anything, my code will be stolen, even if I Obfuscate the XAP. I rather my App be taken than my coding be compromised.
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...and this is why I believe WP8 will have security measures against abuse of that private app deployment feature. Also, XAPs are not even badly protected right now.
Just for fun!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSnkWzZ7ZAA
He uses WP7 on 1:50
THE most informative thread on the WP8 section hands down....all u guys...BIG thanx for all the info...
Sent from my DROID RaZr.
This information is kind of making me question whether I really want to switch from Android to WP8. Anyone having used both android and WP8 want to share their thoughts? I know WP7/8 is closed similar to iOS but I think I'd like to atleast be able to sideload apps.
devize said:
This information is kind of making me question whether I really want to switch from Android to WP8. Anyone having used both android and WP8 want to share their thoughts? I know WP7/8 is closed similar to iOS but I think I'd like to atleast be able to sideload apps.
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Stick with Android. Windows phone will not be developer friendly. This is my biggest problem with windows phone. The whole works out of the box experience really doesn't work when the software is young and lacking basic functionality . There is barely anything you can do with wp7 right now and winp8 is supposed to be even more locked down
Sent from my T8788 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
I enjoy flashing roms and if I can't do that I may not go with a windows phone.
Sent from incredible 2 .
please check out the windows phone 8 forum for windows phone. As for the question I would say wait and see because until we get our hands on with the device its impossible to say. We will have a much better idea in 2 weeks
I see I posted it in the wrong spot.
I saw in wp8 forum somebody posted a similar question and they're getting their head cut off.
Sent from my Incredible 2 using xda premium
wmsforties said:
I see I posted it in the wrong spot.
I saw in wp8 forum somebody posted a similar question and they're getting their head cut off.
Sent from my Incredible 2 using xda premium
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It is quite a volatile question lol
I think the OP might be talking about RT, which does need rooting. There's no way to tell, though, until the tabs actually get onto store shelves.
RT will probably be a royal pain in the arse, if WP7 security has been copied on to Win8 RT then we are all DOOOOOOOOMED
at least until an OEM screws up and its bypassed
Win 8 (x86) probably fairly easy pickings and unlikely to give anyone any bother, its like your regular Win 7 so I don't foresee a big issue, secure boot might prove a concern but not in a "rooting" sense as you will already have that, it might be a wee bit trickier to install other OSs or to hack the OS but all the usual stuff will still be possible on a x86 Win 8
>RT will probably be a royal pain in the arse, if WP7 security has been copied on to Win8 RT then we are all DOOOOOOOOMED
It doesn't matter. All announced Win RT tablets are north of $600, which aren't competitive with Clovertrail tabs that can run full Win8, let alone iPads and Androids. Few will buy into RT this year.
Moreover, it doesn't matter if RT is locked down or not. Because Intel tabs look to be viable on performance & battery life, if RT gets to be a PITA about its walled garden, people (and hackers) will simply stick to x86 and Win8. The only loser is Win RT and Microsoft.
The first order of biz for Win8 is to put it on a diet and strip out most of the 20GB bloat, to maximize what remains of your 64GB storage. I expect Win enthusiasts will take on this task, as they did for XP (XPLite) and Win7 (RT7Lite).
e.mote said:
>RT will probably be a royal pain in the arse, if WP7 security has been copied on to Win8 RT then we are all DOOOOOOOOMED
It doesn't matter. All announced Win RT tablets are north of $600, which aren't competitive with Clovertrail tabs that can run full Win8, let alone iPads and Androids. Few will buy into RT this year.
Moreover, it doesn't matter if RT is locked down or not. Because Intel tabs look to be viable on performance & battery life, if RT gets to be a PITA about its walled garden, people (and hackers) will simply stick to x86 and Win8. The only loser is Win RT and Microsoft.
The first order of biz for Win8 is to put it on a diet and strip out most of the 20GB bloat, to maximize what remains of your 64GB storage. I expect Win enthusiasts will take on this task, as they did for XP (XPLite) and Win7 (RT7Lite).
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It seems you think that the majority of consumers are, well, us... We're outnumbered by an incredible amount man, the majority of people purchasing anything out there don't even know what "root" means... Nor do they care...
I don't exactly see how Microsoft is losing by successfully protecting their product where most others have failed. The only way to obtain root on most devices is through some security hole exploit or something, indicating that the developer did not want you to have root on your device, it is not like it's a feature of the operating system... Microsoft is just doing the same thing that everyone else has done, except they seem to be the only ones who have done it right... We love having full access to our devices here, we hate being locked down but I think that keeping us from breaking into their devices is technically a win for Microsoft & a loss for us.
>I don't exactly see how Microsoft is losing by successfully protecting their product where most others have failed.
Normally, a company erects a walled garden when it has something to protect, eg a successful product, or a market lead that it doesn't want the competition to copy.
MS is erecting a walled garden for RT, a platform that is yet to have any audience, and at launch will behind its competitors in every metric--pricing, content, software, hardware. Perhaps you would be kind enough to point to me what it is that is worth protecting. To me, it's corporate idiocy gone amok.
Putting aside RT for the moment, Win8 is starting its leak to mainstream media now. Of the various Main Street reaction pieces being written about it, one word sums them up: "confusing." If Surface tanks, it'll be just one more in a long series of failed MS initiatives. But if Win8 tanks, it's a hit to its main piggy bank.
I like Win8, but I'm aware that people will have different reactions, and IMO Win8 is going to have a rough time with the userbase--rough enough that a comparison to Vista may be appropriate. No need to argue about it. Launch is next week, and we'll get plenty of reactions from the hoi polloi.
I'd love to have a full-fledged OS on a tablet. But Win8 is a WIP, and my gauge it'll take at least another cycle for mobile use. For my current use, I'm bypassing the Metro UI and using it as a regular desktop OS. My opinion of Windows-on-ARM (RT) is much less optimistic. It won't die, but it will be on life support, waiting for a resuscitation in version 2.0. Let's hope MS perseveres.
Um... no offense @e.mote, but WTF are you talking about? Surface RT starts at $499, not "over $600" by any stretch of the imagination, and there are other vendors announcing Windows RT devices too.
As for "rooting" it... it's Windows NT6.2, and very similar to the desktop version. Getting "root" is a UAC prompt away, nothing more. Heck, you can log in as Administrator if you want to (it's disabled by default, as on Win7, but it can be enabled). It's a multi-user OS (unlike iOS and most if not all Android installs) and uses standard Windows accounts ("Metro-style" Windows Store apps use low-privileged chambers, similar to WP7, but the standard user experience on the desktop is pretty similar to on x86 Win8 except you can't run third-party EXEs.
Now, if you want to talk about bypassing that little restriction on the end there... that'll take some work. It's probably possible, but it will depend on where the check is implemented and enforced, how much debug functionality is exposed in the OS (some things, like sideloading of "Metro" apps, is already known to be available), and how many layers of protection there are. Worst case, it'll take a ring-0 (kernel, essentially) exploit to overwrite the loader check in the running RAM image. More likely, it will require some moderate tweaking to put the device into a "test mode" plus installing a custom signing certificate and signing your binaries, or something similar to that.
Hi some time ago when windows 8.1 was still called blue there were some rumours that Micro$oft will merge its two platforms. Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8 would share she same Metro apps. This move should give M$ edge over Apple where you could have best of both worlds on single device. It seems now that this idea has been lost somewhere in 8.1 changelog.
So I was looking for revolution but it seems that we will receive just evolution. Oh and for most of the portals major change is the start button! Really?!
You seem to be suffering from some keyboard defect. I suggest you look into that. In the meantime, get back under your bridge.
Hi. Thank you for your reply. My post was to start a discussion about the features of new update and about lack of some expected ones (which maybe still will be announced).
And what was the purpose of your reply?
It was never said that wp8 and w8 would become one and the same. You have misunderstood. Some of the new windows runtime features are coming to windows phone and the services offered were to be merged, but the operating systems themselves were to remain seperate.
>Some of the new windows runtime features are coming to windows phone and the services offered were to be merged, but the operating systems themselves were to remain desperate.
that way I had to misunderstood this (would be a great idea thou). Sort of like universal apps shared between iphone and ipad) I seen few apps which are being announced as both windows 8 and windows phone 8 (check co-pilot or halo) which probably kept me in believing in this. Oh well we will see where windows 8 will evolve.
Andrew_j said:
that way I had to misunderstood this (would be a great idea thou). Sort of like universal apps shared between iphone and ipad) I seen few apps which are being announced as both windows 8 and windows phone 8 (check co-pilot or halo) which probably kept me in believing in this. Oh well we will see where windows 8 will evolve.
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iPhone and iPad share apps simply because they are the same operating system. The iPad is just a giant iPhone. its the same as how one android phone and another share apps, they are the same thing.
Windows phone and windows 8 are not.
The desperate thing I said above, may be true but autocorrect fail, wrote it from my nexus this morning.
Andrew_j said:
Hi. Thank you for your reply. My post was to start a discussion about the features of new update and about lack of some expected ones (which maybe still will be announced).
And what was the purpose of your reply?
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Purpose of his post is that you stop using that $ instead of S.
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
Oh. I am sorry I didn't know that I hurt his / yours religious feelings.
Unless of course this gentleman refers to his home as "under the bridge" I read his post as simple attempt to offend.
In light of recent E3 news (xbox one- drm management, activation fees, price, Internet connection requirement to work, always-on camera pointing your face and listening all the time which you cannot just unplug) I thing that using $ instead of S is good way to comment the situation.
To end this pointless conversation - unless there there is a XDA rule which prohibits me to do so then please stop trolling and trying to offend other forum members.
Now coming back to 8.1 - is this correct what I understood from brief installation description that if you install this release you will have to reinstall all the programs if you would like to install final release?
"M$" and similar (and I'd apply this statement even to, for example, "$ony" which is a company I personally detest) is most commonly used as trolling behavior online. This is doubly true in a forum devoted to discussing Microsoft products. It's possible you had, and still have, a legit intention to create a meaningful discussion. However, it looked (and to an extent, still looks) like you're merely trying to stir up trouble.
I agree that the XbOne restrictions are nasty, but I have no intention of buying one, and this forum has nothing to do with that product.
The only hint I ever saw regarding merging the app models was a job posting about installing both XAP and APPX packages on the same platform. That's interesting, and does imply a merged app platform, but there's no guarantee it was even going to happen, much less when. To the best of my knowledge, Microsoft never officially said anything to the effect of "we will do this" although there's been rampant speculation since the Win8 beta days.
You are right. I has never been said officially thus my expectations and hopes to see any bits of confirmation during the press conference. When I haven seen any I asked the question here. Still must say I am looking forward this update (probably not for first public beta - if the rumours are true that you will have to reinstall all your applications).
Personally I believe that The Redmond company will need stronger impact to conquer more market right now windows 8 is getting the love it should receive as is being designed for touch but mostly is being use on non-touchscreen laptops and PC. Marked wasn't ready for this. So right approach would be IMO to get more tablet users on their side (look at the latest adverts windows 8 vs iPad). If 8" tablets market is good for win8 is another discussion thou.
But coming back to subject. Has this been confirm that win 8.1 final version cannot be I painless way installed on top of preview?
Cheers
In practice, it's pretty much always possible to do an in-place upgrade via tweaking a few files in the installer or a value in the registry. However, in-place upgrades are a bad enough idea even when they're supported; I really can't endorse doing it on your main system. I may well install the preview in a VM, though.
I think in this case I will rather wait for official final release. Hdd restrictions will not allow me to have more fun on vm. I am already running win8 on bootcamp so no more complications are required
Also partially as an answer to my initial question it has been announced that new halo game for win 8 and win phone 8 will not be a cross buy. These will be two independent apps so no one unified system for now at least.
Yeah, that's been the case for a number of games already. On the plus side, the games *can* still share data between platforms if you have it on boath, and you can earn achievemnts on both... which would matter more if I gave a damn about gamerscore (I've got like 3500, LOL) but some people really care.
Hi all. There is still light at the end of the tunnel (hope it's not a train
http://www.trustedreviews.com/news/...indows-phone-teams-in-titanic-microsoft-rejig
Hey Everyone!
I normally don't really like to do these type of threads but I'm genuinely curious what everyone thinks will happen to the WP hacking scene once Windows 10 hit and Windows Phone and "Big Windows" becomes one. We've had some pretty good success with Windows Phone 8 and 8.1, I'm looking foreword to see what happens post Windows 10.
Happy Hacking!
TheInterframe said:
Hey Everyone!
I normally don't really like to do these type of threads but I'm genuinely curious what everyone thinks will happen to the WP hacking scene once Windows 10 hit and Windows Phone and "Big Windows" becomes one. We've had some pretty good success with Windows Phone 8 and 8.1, I'm looking foreword to see what happens post Windows 10.
Happy Hacking!
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who knows. I never seen new WP10 build XD
It is interesting that there was no leak of phone version ;D
If someone want there is some xaps from me of nokia apps (like extras+info, screen control, audio control etc., everything unpacked )
Sorry for speed of download
and faster OneDrive:
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=60A67CB739CC5A8!147787
Well I like my low end lumia 635 and the several hundred app's that I got deployed on it. So I for one will not take the plunge and update until I can do the same thing with win 10. I do however want to update but why if it's going to kill my enjoyment. And Then theres the big question will we be able to hack or mod this new os?.
I am pretty sure that hacking the Windows 10 Core will be way more interesting than hacking Windows Phones. Why? Because there is one unified core for Windows, Windows "Mobile" (RT / Phone), possibly the xbox and the IoT.
In most meaningful ways, that's already the case. There are significant differences between the version of NT on the phone and the one that powers a desktop PC, but most of them come down to making the phone's hardware requirements lower and not having any traditional full-trust user software. For example, it's already theoretically possible to use most Win8 exploits on WP8, but they usually aren't very practical because the exploit expects higher privileges than a WP8 can get, or aren't very effective because the level of privilege you gain is much lower than an equivalent action on a Windows PC would get you.
As for the hacking scene in general, a lot of it is going to come down to how locked down WP10 is. If Microsoft continues its recent trend of being aggressively anti-hacker even when that also means being anti-user (see, for example, the whole Windows RT fiasco) then WP10 could simply fail to garner much interest from the hacker crowd - we love a challenge, but at some point we lose interest in commercially supporting such a platform. On the other hand, if they continue making pro-user changes that also positively benefit hackers, such as allowing apps to be installed to the SD card, then WP10 could end up very interesting indeed! WP8.0 was a less-interesting hacking target than WP7.5, and 7.5 was less interesting than 7.0, but WP8.1 is arguably more interesting than 8.0; what we lost in the ability to do capability unlocks, we probably gained (and more) in the various SD card tricks.
Honestly speaking, I don't see WP becoming anywhere near as interesting as Android unless Microsoft AT LEAST allows sideloading without requiring a dev license.
The status quo means that ALL of the more interesting apps (that is, interesting to a power user) will never run on the platform, because Microsoft would never allow them to exist.
I likewise believe that Windows will continue to be a lackluster mobile platform. The problem is it will never garner decent word of mouth sales. A lot of people these days make their buying choices based on what their geek friend might tell them, and most geeks aren't going to be interested in a platform that is so rigid that you can't do a whole lot with it unless Microsoft had already thought of it and explicitly permitted it.
If they put a fee behind it, any fee at all, then they're permanently going to be relegated to being no more popular than having a BREW license was back in the feature phone days.