Database Users

[Q] Few general questions - before I buy tablet now

Hi (sorry for length of the post!),
I am on the verge of getting new tablet.
I have good, old iPad 1 but unfortunately it is more toy than tool.
I have decided that device like Transformer (hybrid tablet/laptop) would be perfect for what I do. Till few days ago I was all set to wait for such a device with Win8 on-board... but now I am not so sure anymore.
Perhaps you will be able to help me make a good choice.
Currently during day I use at least two PC's with Win7 (and Windows Live services) + Google Chrome and iPad.
As much as I like iPad I hate that it can not sync (in full) like two PC's and especially Chrome (not to mention the lack of keyboard).
Because as I wrote I use Live services I was thinking that by the end of the year I should get a Windows Phone device (few of the things I need to know about WP are here, can you help? : http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1643996), Win8 for desktop and tablet with Win8 onboard.
From what I read Win8 will be much more "closed" when compared to prev. vers of Windows.
Questions are:
1. Will both x86 and ARM version force user to use only MS app store (no more free, unrestricted download from the internet like today? - can it really be true???)
2. Will Win8 have geo-restrictions like currently Windows Phone (got your Live ID assigned to USA -> than you can not get any software from App Store UK. Even iOS is less problematic here).
3. Flash support? Got myself nice VPN... at the moment Hulu works perfectly on Win7 and via Splashtop on my iPad. What about Windows 8?
4. As I wrote I use Google Chrome as a browser. It is quick, it syncs in a very good way, etc. I can not get it for iOS (one of the reasons to drop the iOS)... I can have it on Android tablet (although I am not sure about sync capabilities) but I was hoping I will be able to get the proper, full Chrome for my Win8 desktop and tablet.
5. VPN support on Windows8? Any? Will I be able to access Netflix (as I do now) ob both Win8 desktop and Win8 tablet.
6. Do you think tablet with Win8 will differ in a way system is open (I am not sure if I use correct words for that) between x86 and ARM ver? I do understand that if I will get ARM device all software I will get will have to be "wrote" specifically for ARM and opposite... (unless x86 will have no problem in emulating ARM as it will be more powerful platform).
7. In another words... is it worth to wait for Windows 8 on tablet or I will do most of the stuff I want on Android ICS device?
All insights are welcome!

Sry, didn't have the time to answer all of your questions but hopefully some parts will be clearer in some minutes ^^
1.) no, x86 will work just like a win7 pc nowadays. Not quite sure, but ARM will be restricted to the new marketplace/store (correct me if I'm wrong)
2.) Don't know for sure, but I think it will connect your Live Accout (in W8 called Microsoft Account) will have a connection to your location, but just for the store - not for downloaded applications.
3.) On x86 (tablets) I don't see any problems in using flash. ARM may not be having flash at release, but I think it'll come fast.
4.) If Google is willing to release Chrome for Windows 8 RT (the ARM version), you will be able to install it on all your W8 devices. But you could buy a x86 tablet and the desktop version of Chrome will run.
So, have to go...
Some last words: Tablets with x86 are just like a desktop pc for win7 with a touchscreen, a new look and feel and in one little case

galtom said:
1. Will both x86 and ARM version force user to use only MS app store (no more free, unrestricted download from the internet like today? - can it really be true???)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Metro apps are restricted, and the ARM version primarily only supports METRO apps. So an ARM version will force you unless you: Have a developer account, Are on a Domain, or Use an items signed by a trusted cert provider and make some registry settings.
x86 has the same restrictions on METRO apps, but can run any x86 item (all existing windows applications) without restriction.
galtom said:
2. Will Win8 have geo-restrictions like currently Windows Phone (got your Live ID assigned to USA -> than you can not get any software from App Store UK. Even iOS is less problematic here).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Likely yes. You would need to use a proxy to access other stores.
galtom said:
3. Flash support? Got myself nice VPN... at the moment Hulu works perfectly on Win7 and via Splashtop on my iPad. What about Windows 8?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
x86 IE10 yes, I use Hulu on my 8 device right now. Metro IE10 will not support plugins (no flash, silverlight, or active x). You will need an 'app', or a site supporting HTML5 for IE10 to work.
galtom said:
4. As I wrote I use Google Chrome as a browser. It is quick, it syncs in a very good way, etc. I can not get it for iOS (one of the reasons to drop the iOS)... I can have it on Android tablet (although I am not sure about sync capabilities) but I was hoping I will be able to get the proper, full Chrome for my Win8 desktop and tablet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It works fine on an x86 tablet. It will be up to Google on whether or not they provide a Metro version. At this time there should be no restriction in place to prevent them from doing so if they desire to.
galtom said:
5. VPN support on Windows8? Any? Will I be able to access Netflix (as I do now) ob both Win8 desktop and Win8 tablet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
x86 yes. Metro requires an App. I use this today on Windows 8.
galtom said:
6. Do you think tablet with Win8 will differ in a way system is open (I am not sure if I use correct words for that) between x86 and ARM ver? I do understand that if I will get ARM device all software I will get will have to be "wrote" specifically for ARM and opposite... (unless x86 will have no problem in emulating ARM as it will be more powerful platform).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
x86 is completely open. ARM is restricted to things that install on ARM, and in most cases to things that are acquired through the METRO store (except for the exceptions listed in item 1
galtom said:
7. In another words... is it worth to wait for Windows 8 on tablet or I will do most of the stuff I want on Android ICS device?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you are going to buy a convertible windows 8 tablet, so it can be a laptop & a tablet, or if you are going to buy an x86 tablet, I would consider waiting for a windows 8 compatible device (expect sometime late summer / early fall.)
If you are going to buy a Win RT tablet, it is up to you, but I would probably buy a 200-300 android tablet, and then sell it and buy a windows one if/when it becomes a compelling device for you.

most of your questions have been answered, but im going to add a question (for you) an answer it
Should I buy a tablet now?
No, is the answer.
MS and its hardware partners have made some very interesting gains in the touch technology, not to mention Intels gains in performance / low watt CPUs.
if you buy now you will be missing out on some great tech especially around touch screens so it really would be a bit daft to buy just now, you also run the risk of it not supporting Win 8 completely as well. Seriously, wait it out until Win 8 comes, if you must get an older current gen device (perhaps price constrained?) then it will be cheaper then too

First of all thank you all for your time (and answers).
Since (as usual) answers to questions raise new questions... we... here we go
hanswurst24 said:
1.) no, x86 will work just like a win7 pc nowadays. Not quite sure, but ARM will be restricted to the new marketplace/store (correct me if I'm wrong)
2.) Don't know for sure, but I think it will connect your Live Accout (in W8 called Microsoft Account) will have a connection to your location, but just for the store - not for downloaded applications.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1. I am not so sure... and I think even for MS "all this" might be a problem.
On one hand they should not change "philosophy" of Windows because no one would swap Win7 to Win8 if they would have to buy all software form 1 (or few) stores only).
On the other hand Windows Phone is showing the way they want to/would like to go (which company would not want to make extra cash on apps the way Apple, Google and Amazon are doing??? - to find balance will not be easy).
All this shows (in my opinion) another problem - system fragmentation. Only iOS is safe as Apple has full control over system and devices (but THANK GOD - is not that stubborn on geo/market restrictions as Google or Ms).
If you remember how confusing for customers it was with Vista and Win7 versions imagine what will happen now?
To be honest (if those versions RT and x86) will differ so much in terms of practicability, options, openness, functions of hardware I cant imagine how everything will be introduced, market and advertised in order for "Mr Average Joe" to comprehend and not run back next day to the shop with complaints - about system, software, compatibility, etc...
Looks like a pure nightmare and I think this is the reason (they do not know what to do exactly with all this mess) we have so little information on how it all is going to work and c0-work with each other :-(
2). You see... as far as I know if I would buy Windows Phone (or RT Win8 tablet - by the end of the year) I will be limited to apps available only in my location. If Live ID is assigned to UK than forget (even free!) apps for US market (and others). In my case it is a disaster... For my pleasure and entertainment I use apps (on iOS and Android [if I can find them - it is way more difficult than on iOS] from UK, US and Poland.
Installing Netflix or BBC iPlayer on a dive form other parts of the world on iOS is very simple and does not require any hacking/rooting/jaibrakes/etc/.
On Android one has to know how to root the device and than simply search the net... not alwys finding what he/she wants.
On Windows Phone if you create new Live ID (like on iOS), switching those equals HARD RESET of the device.
If that will be the case with Win8 RT... that is a very bad news! Even if x86 ver will have less restrisctions those news will be bad for ARM manufacturers as they will get like "handicapped" system when compared to x86... - would you be happy about it if you were Nvidia or Qualcomm?
hanswurst24 said:
3.) On x86 (tablets) I don't see any problems in using flash. ARM may not be having flash at release, but I think it'll come fast.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Maybe it will, maybe it will not... question are:
- will it at all?
- how difficult it will be to install (root? bootloader? other restrictions? unauthorized software when compared to what your Live ID has bought from the shop?)
- how many AVERAGE people will want to go into all this mess?
michiganenginerd said:
Metro apps are restricted, and the ARM version primarily only supports METRO apps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So... if there will DESKTOP mode on Win8 RT don't you think it will limit its general appeal. If it will be so restricted, without desktop mode... why would you want it over Android?
michiganenginerd said:
x86 has the same restrictions on METRO apps, but can run any x86 item (all existing windows applications) without restriction.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Again, if you are right... this move from MS would mean that hardly anyone will buy ARM version of the system -> ARM devices with Win8 will not sell. If that would be the case what would be the point for ARM ver of Win8 in first place if no sane manufacturer would invest money to produce devices that can not compete with x86 devices because of system they have. Unless they are very, VERY cheap (looking at cost of Android devices is not making me hopeful in this matter) or if people do not much care for the system but for batt. life - again why would you want Win8 over Android or (well established) iOS. It is worth to remember that it will be even more difficult to win customers who already own Android or iOS device - there is a good chance that they have spend quite a lot of cash so far on apps.
QUESTION (off topic): if you got iOS, purchased apps are assigned to account, not device -> meaning if you buy an app for iPad 1 you can still use it on iPad3. How dose it work on Windows Phone and Android devices?
michiganenginerd said:
Likely yes. You would need to use a proxy to access other stores.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Proxy/VPN is not a problem - problem is in Live ID that is assigned to a specific country during creation and registration. In this case your IP does not matter. It is the same with Google Play. Once you have your Google account you can connect to the store form any location but it will not allow you ti install software not in your market (even if you can see it).
michiganenginerd said:
x86 IE10 yes, I use Hulu on my 8 device right now. Metro IE10 will not support plugins (no flash, silverlight, or active x). You will need an 'app', or a site supporting HTML5 for IE10 to work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Again, if it will be so difficult with getting those apps it might influence sales and opinions outside of the US.
It looks to me that if only manufacturers of x86 devices will resolve problem with heating and active cooling (which imho have no please on tablet or hybrid laptop) it will be the only ver of Win8 that will make sense to buy.
Shame, as I would love to have "all this freedom" on an ARM device - I do not need computing power on mobile device but I also do not want to be limited in what I can install and from where/who.
michiganenginerd said:
It works fine on an x86 tablet. It will be up to Google on whether or not they provide a Metro version. At this time there should be no restriction in place to prevent them from doing so if they desire to.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What happens now 9on x86 Win8) if you try to add shortcut to Chrome on Metro UI? It dose not shows... or what?
If so, you mean you can lunch any software from desktop but not from metro screen? Does not make much sense... does it?
I understand that a "Metro app" will be easier to use and more touch friendly that current range of apps designed for mouse but still... it should be my choice. If I want to use it let me start it from any interface.
michiganenginerd said:
If you are going to buy a convertible windows 8 tablet, so it can be a laptop & a tablet, or if you are going to buy an x86 tablet, I would consider waiting for a windows 8 compatible device (expect sometime late summer / early fall.)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am considering buying now something like TF Prime or TF 300 - it might do what I need. And with some outside help (perhaps from here) beside usual stuff I should be able to get VPN client, Hulu +, Netflix and BBC on it. I am not worried about text editors as there should be quite few of those that will work with docx files and skydrive and hotmail.
And if Win8 will be a hit (I already bought Vista on a first day of sale - never again the same mistake! ) than I will consider getting it for my desktop and perhaps swapping a hybrid mobile device.
Does it make sense?
michiganenginerd said:
If you are going to buy a Win RT tablet, it is up to you, but I would probably buy a 200-300 android tablet, and then sell it and buy a windows one if/when it becomes a compelling device for you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly what I wrote above .
dazza9075 said:
most of your questions have been answered, but im going to add a question (for you) an answer it
Should I buy a tablet now?
No, is the answer.
MS and its hardware partners have made some very interesting gains in the touch technology, not to mention Intels gains in performance / low watt CPUs.
if you buy now you will be missing out on some great tech especially around touch screens so it really would be a bit daft to buy just now, you also run the risk of it not supporting Win 8 completely as well. Seriously, wait it out until Win 8 comes, if you must get an older current gen device (perhaps price constrained?) then it will be cheaper then too
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well... I see your points, but...
It is still long wait for Win8, devices, decent reviews, all the hype and prices to settle and actual (physical) choice in the shop. I remember all the hype about competition to iPad 1 when it came out - it took almost a over year for devices to get to shops (remember CES and MWC in 2010 and 2011) - it is 2012 and not all devices are here.
How long it took Xoom to get to shops outside USA...?
Although Win8 (RT as well???) will go on sale after holidays... time for actual devices with the system (laptops, ultrabooks, netbooks, desktops, all in one PC's, tablets and hybrid tablets [have I missed anything?]) to get to the shop is a whole different story.
Meaning.... if it will take another (at least) 6-8 months to have an actual choice in the shops is it worth to wait and suffer in the mean time? But if I do get a TF300/Prime now - will I need a Win8 replacement for it?

sounds like you already made your mind up what you want to do and that Win 8 will not be as good as we think.
So perhaps save yourself to hassle and don't bother with it.
As for buying now that's up to you, but Win 8 wont be that long, hardware will be out soon and if you don't want that new hardware the older stuff will be a lot cheaper. 8 months after launch is way to far down the line, MS will be bending OEMs over backwards to get hardware out for launch.
You would be completely Bonkers buying now, we are about to get an RC of win 8, ARM will be getting developed in parallel, OEMs will have hardware taped out already to test the OS, which is something Apple doesn't have to worry too much about as they build the OS and hardware around one another where as Windows needs to support it all hence the longer development cycle and early gear in the wild
IF you get something now, there is no guarantee it will work or work well with Win RT or x86, so yes, potentially you will need to get new gear, and of course Win RT is OEM only meaning you can only get it with hardware soo.... you choice I guess.

As Dazza said it sounds like you have pretty much made up your mind. But in case there is still value in conversation.
galtom said:
Why not let ARM do what x86 does
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exisiting applications written for windows cannot just run on a ARM device. They need to be modified to support and recompiled.
Existing applications written for desktops and laptops, even if they could run with no changes, would result in a poor experience.
You have two types of devices: Windows & Windows RT
You have two types of applications: Metro & Classic
RT devices are low power tablets running metro only.
Windows devices are likely to be ultrabooks, convertible laptops, and desktops running what they run today.
If you want a tablet, Win RT is a tablet with a full copy of office and a fun interface that will do what an iPad or an android tablet does, but is a device aimed at content consumption, not generation.
If you want a hybrid, you'll be be buying an x86 device, at least in the near future.
Not letting Diablo II & HALO run on Windows RT isn't just an arbitrary restriction. It won't run. It wasn't written, compiled, and tested on an ARM architecture.
galtom said:
Restrictions / curation:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
OSX is adding sandboxing and store requirements over time. Expect in 10 years you have to buy apps from the Mac Store.
Microsoft is heading down the same path, at least for Metro applications. Expect in 10 years, consumers buy most apps from the Windows Store.
Is that a good thing? For some consumers probably. For a developer maybe. For an xda-reader not so much.
galtom said:
Flash Support
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As for flash, it will be very unlikely to come to Windows RT.
Win RT browser will not support plugins.
Adobe has ended new development of Flash on ARM to focus on HTML5.
galtom said:
Why would I buy Win8 RT over android if it is restricted?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why would you choose Android over an iPad?
You choose what is the most compelling to you.
Maybe you like METRO, want domain support, or full native MS Office.
galtom said:
It is still long wait for Win8 devices.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It isn't that long. Release Candidate is first week of June.
I am running it on an AMD E-350 acer tablet I bought for $300, and I use it over my Transformer.
I hold onto my transformer still to use with Citrix Reciever,
Otherwise I use a laptop, an E-350 hybrid, and an A100 as my devices today.
Expect end of summer that 5 point devices, using the new touch technology go on sale.
Expect late fall devices are sold for the holidays.
What you do is up to you as an individual about what is compelling.
For me I can't wait to buy device like the IdeaPad Yoga. I'll switch to using that and a 7" tablet.
If you are happy with Android, the Transformer is fine, I just find myself using the 7" or a full laptop. I rarely use the 10".
You sound fairly unhappy about Win 8's existance. I'm happy to have more choices.
For me, I will reduce my 4 devices to two, one of which I'm excited about. I won't be likely to buy an RT device, but I expect many will.
We aren't the average user that is being targeted by an RT Device. My parents use a 10" tablet for 90% of their internet. They get on a laptop or desktop for writing long emails, uploading photos & using office. If their tablet had widi to wirelessly throw the screen to a monitor, and could use office, they would probably never use their laptop.
Sales People & Relationship Managers that carry around iPads or Androids also can get a device that works with their corporate domain, and has full office on it. For many that would meet their needs.
But just because Windows RT doesn't meet the needs of an average xda user, doesn't mean it fails for the millions of people using netbooks & 5 year old laptops to browse the web, pay bills online, and occasionally use office.

michiganenginerd said:
As Dazza said it sounds like you have pretty much made up your mind. But in case there is still value in conversation.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, that is true but only to a point.
At the moment I think I will give ICS on Asus TF a try and byt the end of the year if x86 tablets with W8 will get good reviews I think I will jump the ship.
My concern (I had Asus 1201n with Atom 330 onboard and have Samsung NC10) is performance of current Atom chips - is it really better (forget about watching smooth YT video on NC10 - and it is not a problem on iPad!).
Heat! - cant have tablet with active cooling system.
Weight! - the likes of current fliptop netbook/tablets its just not nice (heavy and hot).
Battery life - 8h is a must (basically x86 W8 tablet [with a dock] has to be able to work (videos, internet, e-mail - nothing very heavy) to work 1 day
michiganenginerd said:
Originally Posted by galtom
Why not let ARM do what x86 does
Exisiting applications written for windows cannot just run on a ARM device. They need to be modified to support and recompiled.
Existing applications written for desktops and laptops, even if they could run with no changes, would result in a poor experience.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is not exactly what I have asked or at least not what I meant.
It is clear from me that x86 and ARM are two different platforms and I have never, ever expected old software to work on ARM devices.
But! If x86 can have both desktop and Metro why limit W-RT? If someone wants to create an ARM app that will support both modes, if users will want to use it...? Why not let us have the option to do so.
Second is the limitation of the sources of the software.
I can not imagine that W-RT will not get jailbroken as iOS is. But since iOS i way ahead of Windows and there is lots of Android devices on the market I can not see this as a PLUS point for W-RT, quite opposite.
W-RT (and devices with this system) will have to compete with:
- iOS: that is well marketed, well known, still cool, less restricted (no problem in swapping iTunes accounts), people already spend cash on software for their iPads, there is Office for iOS + lots of other business & entertainment software - why would current Apple customers ditch iPads?
Why would and iOS device owner said - OOO, another closed and restricted enviromet just looking different - I want it! - somehow I do not see that happening
- Android: envelope of openness that surrounds Android, no problem with root, community support, ROMS, apps from Google (or from wherever you want), probably a bit lower prices of devices, as iOS (in most cases) works with all Microsoft services + points as in iOS - folks have already spent cash on software, some devices are already in second or third generation
- Windows 8 x86 it has everything W-RT has + lots of more. Beats iOS and Android in terms of software availability, it is basically what you now have on desktop and laptop but with the proper support for touch (when you need it), if Intel&Friends will solve problems of weight/heat/battery life and price range will not be as for current line of Windows tablets it looks like a winner to me.
Having said (wrote) all that - why would Joe go to the shop and said:
"Gimme' that Asus with Windows RT" - instead of iOS, Android or Windows 8 device???
michiganenginerd said:
If you want a tablet, Win RT is a tablet with a full copy of office and a fun interface that will do what an iPad or an android tablet does, but is a device aimed at content consumption, not generation.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Office for RT and Office for x86 - two different things :-(
+ Office for iOS should be here any moment (I thought it is already out). As much as MS would love to ignore iOS and keep Office out of iPAD I do not think they can. how many millions devices is already out there? If only 25% of those people would want one of Office products... its quite a lot of cash...
+ to all points above - there is also a question of price of the software for all platforms and system itself.
What's more, considering how big profit Apple is making on iPad it seems as lots of room for price adjustment once Windows8 & RT devices are out.
michiganenginerd said:
If you want a hybrid, you'll be be buying an x86 device, at least in the near future.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Quite true, but since I miss this sort of functionality every day (and I doubt I am only one) why not go for TF300 or TF Prime now?
There is nothing wrong with those devices and when I look at ICS and what RT will bring to table I do not see any reasonable points that would convince me to wait (that was the reason I wrote here - to see I my line of thinking is correct. So far (unfortunately for W-RT) you have not wrote that I am wrong or that I have misunderstood something about Windows RT.
The only thing worth considering are devices with x86 Windows onboard but:
- its still few months (in the mean time I could give ICS a try?
- they are unknown in terms of battery/heat/weight and price!
Windows RT seems like a great idea that was f...up during creation. If Windows RT would be first on the market (before iPad with iOS and Android) - no problem. They could do all that and people would still get it... nowadays, whey MS is trying to chase others... I do not really see it happening with Windows 8 RT looking as it is.
It is pretty similar to situation with Windows Phone. It is not a bad system... but it is not better either. In some case is like or a bit worse than iOS in some it is like or a bit worse than Android - but it is not BETTER.
And just look how iPhone and Android phones are selling. look where is manufacturers focus.
Samsung/LG/Sony/HTC - how many Android models and how many WP models?
I got strange felling that W-RT will share the same fate. It will be there but not as any threat to iOS or Android, unlike x86 Windows 8 if Intel&Co will deliver.
michiganenginerd said:
OSX is adding sandboxing and store requirements over time. Expect in 10 years you have to buy apps from the Mac Store.
Microsoft is heading down the same path, at least for Metro applications. Expect in 10 years, consumers buy most apps from the Windows Store.[/qoute]
Yes, and there is nothing wrong with this... especially that (I hope) with x86 version we will always keep the choice where we want our software to get from.
Looking at the history (of thing in general) I can not remember 1 good exaple where introduction of more and additional restrictions actually worked well. It is against human nature.
If in 10-15 Windows will become completely shut... than Linux (or something else) might raise its head and actually win hearts of customers - like Apple did not so far ago!
michiganenginerd said:
Is that a good thing? For some consumers probably. For a developer maybe. For an xda-reader not so much.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Can not agree! It is bad for every one - even developers as they will be forced to accept any policy and conditions from Microsoft (similar to what it is right now with Apple ).
Limiting the choice is never good for anyone beside "The Man" in control.
michiganenginerd said:
As for flash, it will be very unlikely to come to Windows RT.
Win RT browser will not support plugins.
Adobe has ended new development of Flash on ARM to focus on HTML5.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And with recent news that RT will not support other browser but its own, best it is another point against this system.
It looks to me as MS is doing all it actually can to make it bad.
michiganenginerd said:
Why would you choose Android over an iPad?
You choose what is the most compelling to you.
Maybe you like METRO, want domain support, or full native MS Office.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
EXACTLY! If all above is true... who is going to get W-RT???
It will sell but only to people with no idea what they are buying, who dont really need it and who will not really use it (will not buy additional apps). Because if they do, if that will think before they buy... W-RT will be the last on the list (unless it will be the cheapest - which I doubt!)
michiganenginerd said:
It isn't that long. Release Candidate is first week of June.
I am running it on an AMD E-350 acer tablet I bought for $300, and I use it over my Transformer.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If only there would be an x86 ver of transformer with no fans to cool it down I would already be on it and this thread would not exist.
I just wanted to make sure that I am not missing something about Windows RT or situation in general.
I hold onto my transformer still to use with Citrix Reciever,
Otherwise I use a laptop, an E-350 hybrid, and an A100 as my devices today.
Expect end of summer that 5 point devices, using the new touch technology go on sale.
Expect late fall devices are sold for the holidays.
What you do is up to you as an individual about what is compelling.
For me I can't wait to buy device like the IdeaPad Yoga. I'll switch to using that and a 7" tablet.
If you are happy with Android, the Transformer is fine, I just find myself using the 7" or a full laptop. I rarely use the 10".
You sound fairly unhappy about Win 8's existance. I'm happy to have more choices.
For me, I will reduce my 4 devices to two, one of which I'm excited about. I won't be likely to buy an RT device, but I expect many will.
We aren't the average user that is being targeted by an RT Device. My parents use a 10" tablet for 90% of their internet. They get on a laptop or desktop for writing long emails, uploading photos & using office. If their tablet had widi to wirelessly throw the screen to a monitor, and could use office, they would probably never use their laptop.
Sales People & Relationship Managers that carry around iPads or Androids also can get a device that works with their corporate domain, and has full office on it. For many that would meet their needs.
But just because Windows RT doesn't meet the needs of an average xda user, doesn't mean it fails for the millions of people using netbooks & 5 year old laptops to browse the web, pay bills online, and occasionally use office.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

Short version:
W-RT is not for targeted at You, I, or many xda-readers. That doesn't mean it doesn't have a place or that the option existing is bad.
galtom said:
Heat, Weight, Battery Life!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Intel is getting closer, but you just can't pull off an iPad size / weight device with 8h+ battery life on x86. The tech isn't there yet.
galtom said:
If x86 can have both desktop and Metro why limit W-RT?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
W-RT is OEM only. It is meant to be an 'appliance' not a PC.
Whether you agree with the approach or not, the justifications for limiting are somewhat explained here:
Microsoft's Windows chief Steven Sinofsky:
If we enabled the broad porting of existing code we would fail to deliver on our commitment to longer battery life, predictable performance, and especially a reliable experience over time. The conventions used by today's Windows apps do not necessarily provide this, whether it is background processes, polling loops, timers, system hooks, startup programs, registry changes, kernel mode code, admin rights, unsigned drivers, add-ins, or a host of other common techniques.
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/...ndows-for-the-arm-processor-architecture.aspx
galtom said:
I can not imagine that W-RT will not get jailbroken as iOS is.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Less immediate need to jailbreak it. There are supported methods of sideloading, but I am sure there will be other people who extend it beyond that.
galtom said:
why would Joe go to the shop and said:
"Gimme' that Asus with Windows RT" - instead of iOS, Android or Windows 8 device???
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Joe may work for a BYOD company, or Joe is buying for his company.
Joe may be my Father, who would like a tablet device he could do email, netflix, hulu, office, and wireless screencasting.
Some Joe's this will work for, other's it won't. We have to recognize, just because we aren't the target market doesn't mean their isn't one.
Many Joe's will buy an iPad or an Android, some will buy W-RT, some will buy none of the above.
A device that is 300-500 dollars, that comes with a free copy of office, and integrates well with a enterprise, has a market.
galtom said:
Office for RT and Office for x86 - two different things
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Excel, OneNote, PowerPoint and Word are expected to support all of the same Office 15 x86 features.
galtom said:
Windows Phone. It is not a bad system... but it is not better either.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agreed, except in the base security model, and as a feature phone replacement. The phone is massively ahead in terms of sandboxing and enforcing secure practices. It would also be a better phone in terms of ease of use and simplicity for a subset of users. Would I replace my Android with it? no. But that doesn't mean it doesn't do some things well, and that their are users who would find the experience simpler than iPhone or Android when buying their first smartphone.
galtom said:
It will be there but not as any threat to iOS or Android, unlike x86 Windows 8 if Intel&Co will deliver.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Does something have to be an 'iPad Killer' for there to be a place for it? Why is choice a bad thing?
galtom said:
Restrictions .... bad for every one
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
For some consumers the security and curation makes their experience better, for some the restrictions outweigh any benefit.
For some developers the market will be better than one not existing, for some the restrictions outweigh any benefit.
For most people on this board the restrictions outweigh the upside.
As a developer, while I hate the restrictions Apple and MS impose, I also now have a market to sell to that did not exist 10 years ago.
I will continue to be a proponent of more open options, and an end to restrictions put in place to support a business model rather than architecture or security, but that doesnt' mean that the app store's existance is a net negative on my life.
galtom said:
RT will not support other browser but its own
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not true. RT will not support other browsers in 'Classic / Desktop' mode.
I think MS should work with major vendors to allow them to deliver 'classic' mode applications on ARM, but this isn't a ban on other browsers, it's a ban on all software that does not run in the sandbox.
galtom said:
It will sell but only to people with no idea what they are buying
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I share concern in this area. I believe that most people who bought netbooks did not get what they expected.
I do think there is a place for these devices for a larger group of users than netbooks had a place for.
But I do think they need to make sure it is sold / marketed in a way that makes it clear what it is, and what it is not.
I will probably get my Father one for Christmas. I probably will not get one of my own. Different users have different needs, hopefully the marketing, sales, and staffs at stores do a better job of directing them.

[Q] Put windows 8 on ipad for free

Hello guys! I have an iPad 2 (I dont know if apple talk is even allowed here) but what I want to do is to install Windows 8 on non-jailbroken iPad 2 with iOS 5.0.1 for free. Spashtops paid offer is unfair since Windows slate users can get it for free. So where do I get win8 for free?

install win8 on ipad2? you're kidding, right?

OptimusLove said:
Hello guys! I have an iPad 2 (I dont know if apple talk is even allowed here) but what I want to do is to install Windows 8 on non-jailbroken iPad 2 with iOS 5.0.1 for free. Spashtops paid offer is unfair since Windows slate users can get it for free. So where do I get win8 for free?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just a quick question, what is it you are wanting to do?
im not sure if you quite understand what is going on with Splashtop , your not installing Windows 8, your using a remote VM that's streamed to your ipad.
besides that, Win 8 ARM isn't available to us, its not a retail product, we have no idea how hard it is going to be to rip out the OS and install it on other devices, or indeed if its possible at all
What you could try, and I don't have an ipad so I cant be sure it would work, is use a web service such as logmein,
setup a win 8 desktop somewhere, then install logmein, if your ipad will allow it log on to the logmein service and connect to your Win 8 desktop, technically you now have a crude version of Splashtops product

OptimusLove said:
Hello guys! I have an iPad 2 (I dont know if apple talk is even allowed here) but what I want to do is to install Windows 8 on non-jailbroken iPad 2 with iOS 5.0.1 for free. Spashtops paid offer is unfair since Windows slate users can get it for free. So where do I get win8 for free?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First of all, Apple doesn't even let you transfer any sort of files except media on their devices. Secondly, if you could manage to get something on there using SSH or something, you can't execute it at bootup. This proves yet a impossible thing to install Windows 8 on iPad but who knows? Someone can prove me wrong and put Win 8 on iPad. That would be awesome as I also own a iPad (1st-Gen).

??? how will that work ???
How will that work? I mean Apple and Windows on a machine?

This will never be possible =[

Taimur Akmal said:
First of all, Apple doesn't even let you transfer any sort of files except media on their devices. Secondly, if you could manage to get something on there using SSH or something, you can't execute it at bootup. This proves yet a impossible thing to install Windows 8 on iPad but who knows? Someone can prove me wrong and put Win 8 on iPad. That would be awesome as I also own a iPad (1st-Gen).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not to mention that iBoot is very particular about what it downloads during recovery.
Cogixo: it's possible with both Mac and Windows PCs, Bootcamp and Hackintoshing (respectively). But on Apple's ARM based tablet? Probably not (in fact, definitely not going to be too possible)
Sent from my LS-LS670 using XDA

Kabayan, it is possible but the hardware is not compatible, you have been seeing windows 8 running on iPad but it was a remote session, using ipad to control another PC running windows 8. AFAIK, there was no single project being produced installing windows 8 in iPad. Splashtop's tool is being used to connect an iPad to a Windows 8 PC, making an illusion of running windows 8 on ipad.
there are windows 8-based tablets in the market now(samsung, ehem) amd windows 7-based tablets can also accommodate windows 8.
if you have enough funds, you can commission few programmers to make a hacked wiindows 8 pc(arm version is better) to make the sources of it compatible to iPad.

junpeikawada said:
Kabayan, it is possible but the hardware is not compatible, you have been seeing windows 8 running on iPad but it was a remote session, using ipad to control another PC running windows 8. AFAIK, there was no single project being produced installing windows 8 in iPad. Splashtop's tool is being used to connect an iPad to a Windows 8 PC, making an illusion of running windows 8 on ipad.
there are windows 8-based tablets in the market now(samsung, ehem) amd windows 7-based tablets can also accommodate windows 8.
if you have enough funds, you can commission few programmers to make a hacked wiindows 8 pc(arm version is better) to make the sources of it compatible to iPad.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I had to explain the same thing to my friend who switched from iOS to Android and asked me why he couldn't use Java when "cloud browse for iOS could". Had to explain to him that all he was seeing was a Linux system shunting the images from the java site to his iPod.
Sent from my LS-LS670 using XDA

:laugh: this is kind of joke.... :laugh:

hA....... Jobs is rolling over in his grave. Do some people think first? I'm gonna have to use this one at work.....
Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express

bzmotoninja83 said:
hA....... Jobs is rolling over in his grave. Do some people think first? I'm gonna have to use this one at work.....
Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I like the idea of Steve jobs perpetually rolling around and around and around in his grave
Sent from my HTC One S using xda premium

androidcues said:
I like the idea of Steve jobs perpetually rolling around and around and around in his grave
Sent from my HTC One S using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
LOOOOOOOL!!!!!!!

If this is possable, I will go to the store and buy a iPad just for this use....
As I am not interested in it for iOS (sorry fanboys)

Put DOS on your macbook. U can really do it for free)

cogixo said:
How will that work? I mean Apple and Windows on a machine?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The thing is,questions like this show why the Surface is going to be a trainwreck. Windows on Apple hardware was done. First by some guy with quite a bit of talent and skill,then by apple themselves. The thing is,most endusers are so clueless they dont realize why this was possible OR why it was difficult.
It was possible of course becuase the newer apple hardware really IS PC hardware with a slightly different EFI firmware. Therefore running windows on it is possible.
The thing is,there are TWO versions of the Surface,and TWO version of windows 8,which are both completely different. One version of the surface is an ARM based tablet,and it runs a special ARM windows. It needs to run special ARM windows software and cant run normal apps. They call it Windows 8 RT. (presumably for RISC Tablet or RISC Technology)
Then there is the Pro version. It runs "real" windows 8,and can run normal windows programs. Its like a PC in a tablet form factor and will use an Intel Atom CPU. It also costs almost twice as much.
This will confuse people. They will go buy the RT tablet,thinking they can run all the WIndows software and be very angry and dissapointed when they find out the expensive tablet they bought is "useless". Microsofts promises of vast amounts of Metro enabled vaporware wont cut it.
Many of those people will probably STILL not understand. They will think that "Windows 8 wont run your old WIndows programs" and not only wont buy Windows 8 for their PC,they wont even buy a new PC becuase they will think that Windows 8 does not run their software. They saw it with their own eyes,and the guy at windows tech support told them that,or at least thats what they THINK they were told,the guy was hard to understand. Those people will be very angry at Microsoft. Macs will get a nice shot in the arm from this,after all,if you have to buy all new software,then Microsofts lost its barrier to people switching. Perception IS reality in this case.
In the end,this wont kill MS or anything,but they will have to spend a fortune to undo the damage. They will have to run commericals to explain the difference. The RT tablets will dissapear not long after they are released. MS will try to salvage the Windows 8 Pro tablet line. That will anger the people that shelled out 600 dollars for a new tablet and te OEMs that are dumb enough to jump on the bandwagon. (Apperantly HP is one such company thats dumb enough)
Thats not getting into the UI. Windows 8 probably works as well as anything else on a tablet,but it sucks on a desktop.
I expect to see the Metro UI dialed back or eliminated in the Windows 9,which should basically be a rebadged version of 8 with Metro turned off and a normal windows desktop. It will probably drop around early to mid 2014. Service pack one will probably make Metro default to off as well,at least for newly installed machines.
The worst thing will be the confusion. There are too many things they are coming out with called "windows 8". My mother cant even figure out how to create a new document and has to call me every time she does it. How is she going to keep "Windows 8 RT on a Surface","Windows 8 on a Surface pro","Windows 8 Home","windows 8 professional","Windows 8 Ultimate" and "Windows 8 Phone" strait. Which one runs what software again? thats the thing,it used to be,if it ran windows,it ran windows software. People understood that. They also came to understand that really old versions of software that ran on older versions of windows might not run on newer computers with their newer versions of windows. (Although they didnt understand why). This is going to be too much for end users to keep track of.
Now for the real question. Is it theoretically possible to put Windows 8 RT,the ARM version on a I-Pad. The answer is,yes,but it wont happen. Apple does not use standard chips like ,say the HP Touchpad. The chipset is different. The drivers wont exist for a i-Pad and its not a trivial thing to write them. Now,tablets like the Touchpad might someday have a custom Windows 8 RT rom for them. Thats becuase they use a qualcom chipset used in dozens of other devices. As such,its quite likely that drivers for the hardware will exist for Windows 8 RT for those tablets. This is how they were able to port Android to the Touchpad. Even that is a huge undertaking. Its almost a year later and its working quite well but its still not finished and many things (like the camera) do not work right.
---------- Post added at 04:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:41 AM ----------
DavidinCT said:
If this is possable, I will go to the store and buy a iPad just for this use....
As I am not interested in it for iOS (sorry fanboys)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Im not a fanboi but I question why you would want Windows 8 RT. Its going to be a disaster. You might as well run webOS. There are two tablets operating systems right now that are successful and then there are the also-rans. The ones no one in their right mind will pay 500 dollars for.
Theres Android,and theres iOS. Thats it. In fact,many android users would rather have a iPad but its too expensive. Thats both good and bad for android. If you look at it one way,maybe 1/3 of Android users are people who would rather have the competitions product but could not afford it. On the other hand,perhaps 1/3 of Android users were potential Apple customers who were swayed by the lower price and better value of Android tablets. Windows RT however is just like WebOS. Its something thats not an iPad,costs as MUCH as an iPad and is not as GOOD as an iPad.
You can beat apple by being as good as an iPad and being far cheaper. You can beat apple by costing as much as an iPad and being far better. However,you cant beat apple by being as good as an iPad and costing as much as one,becuase at the end of the day,Apple has one thing going for it,its product IS an iPad. Thats the one most people want. Microsoft is trying to beat Apple by selling a product that costs as much or more than an iPad,and is not as good as one. (HP tried it too) Now before the fanbois start flaming me,let me say,I dont think Windows 8 RT or WebOS worked nearly as well as Android or iOS,but lets just say they are actually a little better. Thats the thing,they are a little better,but not a lot better,on their own. But then there are apps. The tablet is worthless without apps. WebOS has hardly any. Windows 8 hardly has any. Therefore the iPad and Android are better.
A little better with the promise of some vaporware in the future wont do it. You need apps,and you need them NOW,or you at least have to convince people that you have a winner. You can do it if your just WAY better. But if your just a little better,or the same,or even worse,then no one will make apps,so no one will buy it,so no one will make apps (becuase theres no one to buy them)
Android can compete with iOS becuase for some people,Android is better. Its more open. For others,the closed nature of the iPad is "better". Windows 8RT however has all the disadvantages of iOS with none of the benefits.

pflatlyne said:
The thing is,questions like this show why the Surface is going to be a trainwreck. Windows on Apple hardware was done. First by some guy with quite a bit of talent and skill,then by apple themselves. The thing is,most endusers are so clueless they dont realize why this was possible OR why it was difficult.
It was possible of course becuase the newer apple hardware really IS PC hardware with a slightly different EFI firmware. Therefore running windows on it is possible.
The thing is,there are TWO versions of the Surface,and TWO version of windows 8,which are both completely different. One version of the surface is an ARM based tablet,and it runs a special ARM windows. It needs to run special ARM windows software and cant run normal apps. They call it Windows 8 RT. (presumably for RISC Tablet or RISC Technology)
Then there is the Pro version. It runs "real" windows 8,and can run normal windows programs. Its like a PC in a tablet form factor and will use an Intel Atom CPU. It also costs almost twice as much.
This will confuse people. They will go buy the RT tablet,thinking they can run all the WIndows software and be very angry and dissapointed when they find out the expensive tablet they bought is "useless". Microsofts promises of vast amounts of Metro enabled vaporware wont cut it.
Many of those people will probably STILL not understand. They will think that "Windows 8 wont run your old WIndows programs" and not only wont buy Windows 8 for their PC,they wont even buy a new PC becuase they will think that Windows 8 does not run their software. They saw it with their own eyes,and the guy at windows tech support told them that,or at least thats what they THINK they were told,the guy was hard to understand. Those people will be very angry at Microsoft. Macs will get a nice shot in the arm from this,after all,if you have to buy all new software,then Microsofts lost its barrier to people switching. Perception IS reality in this case.
In the end,this wont kill MS or anything,but they will have to spend a fortune to undo the damage. They will have to run commericals to explain the difference. The RT tablets will dissapear not long after they are released. MS will try to salvage the Windows 8 Pro tablet line. That will anger the people that shelled out 600 dollars for a new tablet and te OEMs that are dumb enough to jump on the bandwagon. (Apperantly HP is one such company thats dumb enough)
Thats not getting into the UI. Windows 8 probably works as well as anything else on a tablet,but it sucks on a desktop.
I expect to see the Metro UI dialed back or eliminated in the Windows 9,which should basically be a rebadged version of 8 with Metro turned off and a normal windows desktop. It will probably drop around early to mid 2014. Service pack one will probably make Metro default to off as well,at least for newly installed machines.
The worst thing will be the confusion. There are too many things they are coming out with called "windows 8". My mother cant even figure out how to create a new document and has to call me every time she does it. How is she going to keep "Windows 8 RT on a Surface","Windows 8 on a Surface pro","Windows 8 Home","windows 8 professional","Windows 8 Ultimate" and "Windows 8 Phone" strait. Which one runs what software again? thats the thing,it used to be,if it ran windows,it ran windows software. People understood that. They also came to understand that really old versions of software that ran on older versions of windows might not run on newer computers with their newer versions of windows. (Although they didnt understand why). This is going to be too much for end users to keep track of.
Now for the real question. Is it theoretically possible to put Windows 8 RT,the ARM version on a I-Pad. The answer is,yes,but it wont happen. Apple does not use standard chips like ,say the HP Touchpad. The chipset is different. The drivers wont exist for a i-Pad and its not a trivial thing to write them. Now,tablets like the Touchpad might someday have a custom Windows 8 RT rom for them. Thats becuase they use a qualcom chipset used in dozens of other devices. As such,its quite likely that drivers for the hardware will exist for Windows 8 RT for those tablets. This is how they were able to port Android to the Touchpad. Even that is a huge undertaking. Its almost a year later and its working quite well but its still not finished and many things (like the camera) do not work right.
---------- Post added at 04:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:41 AM ----------
Im not a fanboi but I question why you would want Windows 8 RT. Its going to be a disaster. You might as well run webOS. There are two tablets operating systems right now that are successful and then there are the also-rans. The ones no one in their right mind will pay 500 dollars for.
Theres Android,and theres iOS. Thats it. In fact,many android users would rather have a iPad but its too expensive. Thats both good and bad for android. If you look at it one way,maybe 1/3 of Android users are people who would rather have the competitions product but could not afford it. On the other hand,perhaps 1/3 of Android users were potential Apple customers who were swayed by the lower price and better value of Android tablets. Windows RT however is just like WebOS. Its something thats not an iPad,costs as MUCH as an iPad and is not as GOOD as an iPad.
You can beat apple by being as good as an iPad and being far cheaper. You can beat apple by costing as much as an iPad and being far better. However,you cant beat apple by being as good as an iPad and costing as much as one,becuase at the end of the day,Apple has one thing going for it,its product IS an iPad. Thats the one most people want. Microsoft is trying to beat Apple by selling a product that costs as much or more than an iPad,and is not as good as one. (HP tried it too) Now before the fanbois start flaming me,let me say,I dont think Windows 8 RT or WebOS worked nearly as well as Android or iOS,but lets just say they are actually a little better. Thats the thing,they are a little better,but not a lot better,on their own. But then there are apps. The tablet is worthless without apps. WebOS has hardly any. Windows 8 hardly has any. Therefore the iPad and Android are better.
A little better with the promise of some vaporware in the future wont do it. You need apps,and you need them NOW,or you at least have to convince people that you have a winner. You can do it if your just WAY better. But if your just a little better,or the same,or even worse,then no one will make apps,so no one will buy it,so no one will make apps (becuase theres no one to buy them)
Android can compete with iOS becuase for some people,Android is better. Its more open. For others,the closed nature of the iPad is "better". Windows 8RT however has all the disadvantages of iOS with none of the benefits.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
While there is quite a lot of misinformation in your post, as I don't have a laptop at the minute, I'll only point out a few.
One, your using "vaporware" to describe metro apps on a system currently in active development. This is like you releasing a program currently in development and people calling it vaporware during it's beta release because there's no plugins "yet". Metro applications do exist and are growing in number.
Two, Microsoft has stated many times that RT would not run standard windows applications and I'm sure that will be in the advertising for the surface RT as well. Metro has enough apps for your causal tablet user. If casual joe wants standard windows applications, he'll buy a Surface Pro.
Three, Microsoft stated that Windows 8 was not going to have so many editions in this release. Not to mention that Windows 8 on a Surface Pro and RT (and probably WP8) will run the same Metro applications. Windows 8 on a surface pro will run the same applications as the normal computer.
Four, Microsoft is probably not going to scrap Metro. They've got enough of a user base on Windows 8 (since Developers Preview) to have enough information about metro. IMHO, if there was to be any inclination to scrap metro, we would've seen it in Release Preview with an on/off switch. Besides, they've put so much work into the interface and making that interface unified across their services and software.
As I said, I would write more if it weren't for the fact that I'm currently in the process of a move and my laptop's charger died on me.
No offense is meant by my post here, just thought I'd clear up some confusion that you seem to have.
Sent from my LG-LS670 using XDA

pflatlyne said:
The thing is,questions like this show why the Surface is going to be a trainwreck. Windows on Apple hardware was done. First by some guy with quite a bit of talent and skill,then by apple themselves. The thing is,most endusers are so clueless they dont realize why this was possible OR why it was difficult.
It was possible of course becuase the newer apple hardware really IS PC hardware with a slightly different EFI firmware. Therefore running windows on it is possible.
The thing is,there are TWO versions of the Surface,and TWO version of windows 8,which are both completely different. One version of the surface is an ARM based tablet,and it runs a special ARM windows. It needs to run special ARM windows software and cant run normal apps. They call it Windows 8 RT. (presumably for RISC Tablet or RISC Technology)
Then there is the Pro version. It runs "real" windows 8,and can run normal windows programs. Its like a PC in a tablet form factor and will use an Intel Atom CPU. It also costs almost twice as much.
This will confuse people. They will go buy the RT tablet,thinking they can run all the WIndows software and be very angry and dissapointed when they find out the expensive tablet they bought is "useless". Microsofts promises of vast amounts of Metro enabled vaporware wont cut it.
Many of those people will probably STILL not understand. They will think that "Windows 8 wont run your old WIndows programs" and not only wont buy Windows 8 for their PC,they wont even buy a new PC becuase they will think that Windows 8 does not run their software. They saw it with their own eyes,and the guy at windows tech support told them that,or at least thats what they THINK they were told,the guy was hard to understand. Those people will be very angry at Microsoft. Macs will get a nice shot in the arm from this,after all,if you have to buy all new software,then Microsofts lost its barrier to people switching. Perception IS reality in this case.
In the end,this wont kill MS or anything,but they will have to spend a fortune to undo the damage. They will have to run commericals to explain the difference. The RT tablets will dissapear not long after they are released. MS will try to salvage the Windows 8 Pro tablet line. That will anger the people that shelled out 600 dollars for a new tablet and te OEMs that are dumb enough to jump on the bandwagon. (Apperantly HP is one such company thats dumb enough)
Thats not getting into the UI. Windows 8 probably works as well as anything else on a tablet,but it sucks on a desktop.
I expect to see the Metro UI dialed back or eliminated in the Windows 9,which should basically be a rebadged version of 8 with Metro turned off and a normal windows desktop. It will probably drop around early to mid 2014. Service pack one will probably make Metro default to off as well,at least for newly installed machines.
The worst thing will be the confusion. There are too many things they are coming out with called "windows 8". My mother cant even figure out how to create a new document and has to call me every time she does it. How is she going to keep "Windows 8 RT on a Surface","Windows 8 on a Surface pro","Windows 8 Home","windows 8 professional","Windows 8 Ultimate" and "Windows 8 Phone" strait. Which one runs what software again? thats the thing,it used to be,if it ran windows,it ran windows software. People understood that. They also came to understand that really old versions of software that ran on older versions of windows might not run on newer computers with their newer versions of windows. (Although they didnt understand why). This is going to be too much for end users to keep track of.
Now for the real question. Is it theoretically possible to put Windows 8 RT,the ARM version on a I-Pad. The answer is,yes,but it wont happen. Apple does not use standard chips like ,say the HP Touchpad. The chipset is different. The drivers wont exist for a i-Pad and its not a trivial thing to write them. Now,tablets like the Touchpad might someday have a custom Windows 8 RT rom for them. Thats becuase they use a qualcom chipset used in dozens of other devices. As such,its quite likely that drivers for the hardware will exist for Windows 8 RT for those tablets. This is how they were able to port Android to the Touchpad. Even that is a huge undertaking. Its almost a year later and its working quite well but its still not finished and many things (like the camera) do not work right.
---------- Post added at 04:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:41 AM ----------
Im not a fanboi but I question why you would want Windows 8 RT. Its going to be a disaster. You might as well run webOS. There are two tablets operating systems right now that are successful and then there are the also-rans. The ones no one in their right mind will pay 500 dollars for.
Theres Android,and theres iOS. Thats it. In fact,many android users would rather have a iPad but its too expensive. Thats both good and bad for android. If you look at it one way,maybe 1/3 of Android users are people who would rather have the competitions product but could not afford it. On the other hand,perhaps 1/3 of Android users were potential Apple customers who were swayed by the lower price and better value of Android tablets. Windows RT however is just like WebOS. Its something thats not an iPad,costs as MUCH as an iPad and is not as GOOD as an iPad.
You can beat apple by being as good as an iPad and being far cheaper. You can beat apple by costing as much as an iPad and being far better. However,you cant beat apple by being as good as an iPad and costing as much as one,becuase at the end of the day,Apple has one thing going for it,its product IS an iPad. Thats the one most people want. Microsoft is trying to beat Apple by selling a product that costs as much or more than an iPad,and is not as good as one. (HP tried it too) Now before the fanbois start flaming me,let me say,I dont think Windows 8 RT or WebOS worked nearly as well as Android or iOS,but lets just say they are actually a little better. Thats the thing,they are a little better,but not a lot better,on their own. But then there are apps. The tablet is worthless without apps. WebOS has hardly any. Windows 8 hardly has any. Therefore the iPad and Android are better.
A little better with the promise of some vaporware in the future wont do it. You need apps,and you need them NOW,or you at least have to convince people that you have a winner. You can do it if your just WAY better. But if your just a little better,or the same,or even worse,then no one will make apps,so no one will buy it,so no one will make apps (becuase theres no one to buy them)
Android can compete with iOS becuase for some people,Android is better. Its more open. For others,the closed nature of the iPad is "better". Windows 8RT however has all the disadvantages of iOS with none of the benefits.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i disagree with you completely, just cause something has changed doesnt mean it is bad, metro is an amazing UI for both touch and keyboard and mouse, sure it takes some getting use to but it will always be like that and i dont think you have even tried windows 8, the windows store already has a bunch of metro apps and the os isnt even released as a final product yet. as for windows rt, i feel that will succeed because it is enough for average joe blow to browse the web and play some small games, and even if you need to run pc programs, im 100% sure there will be emulation for x86/x64 programs whether its native or its from a third party company like vmware.
tbh you are being a fanboy so please dont lie to yourself by saying you're not, you're comparing an unreleased os to a failed os because webos doesnt have any apps and windows 8 doesnt have many in its current state and on top of that, you're defending current tablet os's at every chance you get just because they have more apps
heck the reason you NEED an app to do something on ios and android is because you cant do much with the built in apps, have you tried using facebook's desktop site on your android tablet, the experience is terrible, nothing clicks right, you cant hover over drop menus, ect. while on IE10 everything works the way it should, it doesnt freezee or try to click something behind a drop menu, everything just works
and yes i am being a fanboy, windows 8 is the future for mobile computing, especially when there are going to be so many hybrid laptop tablets coming out in the near future, windows 8 would have done what the ipad and android tabs have failed to do, kill the laptop

I agree with you completely pflatlyne, though as previously stated there are many inaccuracies in your post.
One thing I want to point out that hasn't been already corrected: the SurfacePro will run an x64 inter i-Core series CPU, not an Atom

mtmerrick said:
I agree with you completely pflatlyne, though as previously stated there are many inaccuracies in your post.
One thing I want to point out that hasn't been already corrected: the SurfacePro will run an x64 inter i-Core series CPU, not an Atom
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
but it could do, future Atoms will be developed and improved uppon, there is no technically reason Win8 Pro wont run on an Atom or an i7!
infact id put money it there being mid level devices released some time after the initial release to fill the void between ARM and i5 although in saying that there is apparently only 10w difference between the two so perhaps new i3s will become the new Atom ultra low watt SKUs

Windows 8 vs Windows RT, which one to buy?

Hey guys, just came across this article that compares the features of RT and Windows 8 Pro version
Should I get the windows RT, which will be cheaper and I will get office with it. Or should I get Windows 8 Pro? (I'm aware of the $40 upgrade but this is mainly for buying a new computer)
Will the metro apps take care of most of the computing needs? I only need office and photoshop, everything else is done in browser.
Source

np231 said:
Hey guys, just came across this article that compares the features of RT and Windows 8 Pro version
Should I get the windows RT, which will be cheaper and I will get office with it. Or should I get Windows 8 Pro? (I'm aware of the $40 upgrade but this is mainly for buying a new computer)
Will the metro apps take care of most of the computing needs? I only need office and photoshop, everything else is done in browser.
Source
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Get Windows 8 Pro. Think of them like this:
Windows 8 Pro includes:
- Traditional desktop apps, so think of all the apps for Win 7
- Tablet apps, apps that you find on the store
Windows RT only includes the "tablet apps."
What Microsoft essentially did was create a system within Win8 where they added a layer where it functions as a tablet and all the tablet apps also work on Win 8. Pretty slick, but a little confusing. Example, an app behaves differently within metro than within traditional Windows... Overall, for $40, if all your apps work with Win8, then it's definitely worth the price.

Errr. Do you have a hybrid pc or something like that? RT version doesnt sell just like this. Windows 8 RT just come within your new tablet/ARM gadget. You cant purchase and install it.
You just have Windows 8, Windows 8 Pro and Enterprise (if im not mistaken). Anyway, Get Windows 8. There is no need to get Pro version.

Use Enterprise if you need wtg if not professional.
Sent from my RK29 tab...

Enterprise also allows side loading metro apps a bit off topic for this but worth saying as this is a dev forum. Though i think enterprise is only available to business users (i may be mistaken as i have access to it i have not really checked but i did hear this).

I have downloaded msdn enterprise rtm trial to make my own wtg. When windows 8 releases I'll use pro.
Sent from my RK29 tab...

mikeeam said:
Errr. Do you have a hybrid pc or something like that? RT version doesnt sell just like this. Windows 8 RT just come within your new tablet/ARM gadget. You cant purchase and install it.
You just have Windows 8, Windows 8 Pro and Enterprise (if im not mistaken). Anyway, Get Windows 8. There is no need to get Pro version.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am aware that Windows 8 RT comes with the device, you can't buy it. But, I was asking if it would be worth it to buy that device with RT or wait for Windows 8 Pro b/c the battery life might be really bad with the Pro version.

np231 said:
I am aware that Windows 8 RT comes with the device, you can't buy it. But, I was asking if it would be worth it to buy that device with RT or wait for Windows 8 Pro b/c the battery life might be really bad with the Pro version.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think the point is, no one knows.
patience my friend, it wont be long now and the inter Wibble will be full of reviews to pick over.

Battery life will depend greatly on the devices hardware. According to what Intel claims Intel Atom based tablets will be available with a battery life of up to 10 hours. Those would support Windows 8 Pro and should offer comparable battery life to Windows RT tablets. But I guess we will have to wait until they are actually on the market to answer this.

you cannot buy Windows RT standalone, it only runs on ARM CPU's and is only available preinstalled on ARM hardware, dilemma solved.

np231 said:
I only need office and photoshop, everything else is done in browser
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Photoshop will not be released(at least in full form) on RT. That means that an RT device is totally worthless.

phailyoor said:
Photoshop will not be released(at least in full form) on RT. That means that an RT device is totally worthless.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It will be, if it is there for Android tablets, it will be released for Windows 8 RT as well.

TravisAntonio said:
It will be, if it is there for Android tablets, it will be released for Windows 8 RT as well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Photoshop for android is not Photoshop. It's photoshop express, and contains an extremely limited subset of features. Photoshop does everything you could imagine that's photo related. Photoshop express for android just does common photo editing tasks.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=air.com.adobe.pstouch
this is PS for tablets, it's something different than PS express

I don't think Windows RT worth it. Its like windows 8 retarded.
true that it would be cheaper but still should cost as much as an ipad or android tablet.But with the ipad u got a whole lots of apps, while there's plenty for android too. There are not much app for RT right now.
Capabilities wise, windows 8 come first. android is quite a powerful mobile os, then there's the jailbroken ipad. WinRT is the worst of these bunch
So no apps,no capability should equal no buy
Sent from my LT26i using xda app-developers app

phailyoor said:
Photoshop for android is not Photoshop. It's photoshop express, and contains an extremely limited subset of features. Photoshop does everything you could imagine that's photo related. Photoshop express for android just does common photo editing tasks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Try to inform yourself before do a big talk
darth5zaft said:
I don't think Windows RT worth it. Its like windows 8 retarded.
true that it would be cheaper but still should cost as much as an ipad or android tablet.But with the ipad u got a whole lots of apps, while there's plenty for android too. There are not much app for RT right now.
Capabilities wise, windows 8 come first. android is quite a powerful mobile os, then there's the jailbroken ipad. WinRT is the worst of these bunch
So no apps,no capability should equal no buy
Sent from my LT26i using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's just matter of time for apps to go out. I'm going to join Win8 Development soon.
Sent from my MB860 using xda app-developers app

441Excelsior said:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=air.com.adobe.pstouch
this is PS for tablets, it's something different than PS express
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Whoops. It's still not full photoshop though, and only comes with very basic functionality.
Also-4MP image size limit. not enough for most pro photo editing.

phailyoor said:
Whoops. It's still not full photoshop though, and only comes with very basic functionality.
Also-4MP image size limit. not enough for most pro photo editing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why are you so focused on going agaisn't Windows 8 RT?, look at the good side of it... :fingers-crossed:

phailyoor said:
Whoops. It's still not full photoshop though, and only comes with very basic functionality.
Also-4MP image size limit. not enough for most pro photo editing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And that's why ALL pro photo editing is done on a proper PC and not a tablet. This is a joke saying RT is rubbish because of this I mean name 1 pro that will use a tablet let alone a competitors one ie android or ipad. Its like the world has lost the plot and the rubbish I read spewing over the web about windows 8 is some of the worst fud I have ever seen.
If your going for photo editing you need to be looking at least at a pro hybrid but I would say you will need more grunt like a dell xps machine.

I am going to buy the Windows 8 Pro version on release and get the upgrade for £25.00.
Windows 8 is 20% faster than Win7 in following Startup, Shutdown, Gaming, Browsing and general app loading
On top of that security is alot better than 7

How difficult will Windows 8 be to root.

I enjoy flashing roms and if I can't do that I may not go with a windows phone.
Sent from incredible 2 .

please check out the windows phone 8 forum for windows phone. As for the question I would say wait and see because until we get our hands on with the device its impossible to say. We will have a much better idea in 2 weeks

I see I posted it in the wrong spot.
I saw in wp8 forum somebody posted a similar question and they're getting their head cut off.
Sent from my Incredible 2 using xda premium

wmsforties said:
I see I posted it in the wrong spot.
I saw in wp8 forum somebody posted a similar question and they're getting their head cut off.
Sent from my Incredible 2 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It is quite a volatile question lol

I think the OP might be talking about RT, which does need rooting. There's no way to tell, though, until the tabs actually get onto store shelves.

RT will probably be a royal pain in the arse, if WP7 security has been copied on to Win8 RT then we are all DOOOOOOOOMED
at least until an OEM screws up and its bypassed
Win 8 (x86) probably fairly easy pickings and unlikely to give anyone any bother, its like your regular Win 7 so I don't foresee a big issue, secure boot might prove a concern but not in a "rooting" sense as you will already have that, it might be a wee bit trickier to install other OSs or to hack the OS but all the usual stuff will still be possible on a x86 Win 8

>RT will probably be a royal pain in the arse, if WP7 security has been copied on to Win8 RT then we are all DOOOOOOOOMED
It doesn't matter. All announced Win RT tablets are north of $600, which aren't competitive with Clovertrail tabs that can run full Win8, let alone iPads and Androids. Few will buy into RT this year.
Moreover, it doesn't matter if RT is locked down or not. Because Intel tabs look to be viable on performance & battery life, if RT gets to be a PITA about its walled garden, people (and hackers) will simply stick to x86 and Win8. The only loser is Win RT and Microsoft.
The first order of biz for Win8 is to put it on a diet and strip out most of the 20GB bloat, to maximize what remains of your 64GB storage. I expect Win enthusiasts will take on this task, as they did for XP (XPLite) and Win7 (RT7Lite).

e.mote said:
>RT will probably be a royal pain in the arse, if WP7 security has been copied on to Win8 RT then we are all DOOOOOOOOMED
It doesn't matter. All announced Win RT tablets are north of $600, which aren't competitive with Clovertrail tabs that can run full Win8, let alone iPads and Androids. Few will buy into RT this year.
Moreover, it doesn't matter if RT is locked down or not. Because Intel tabs look to be viable on performance & battery life, if RT gets to be a PITA about its walled garden, people (and hackers) will simply stick to x86 and Win8. The only loser is Win RT and Microsoft.
The first order of biz for Win8 is to put it on a diet and strip out most of the 20GB bloat, to maximize what remains of your 64GB storage. I expect Win enthusiasts will take on this task, as they did for XP (XPLite) and Win7 (RT7Lite).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It seems you think that the majority of consumers are, well, us... We're outnumbered by an incredible amount man, the majority of people purchasing anything out there don't even know what "root" means... Nor do they care...
I don't exactly see how Microsoft is losing by successfully protecting their product where most others have failed. The only way to obtain root on most devices is through some security hole exploit or something, indicating that the developer did not want you to have root on your device, it is not like it's a feature of the operating system... Microsoft is just doing the same thing that everyone else has done, except they seem to be the only ones who have done it right... We love having full access to our devices here, we hate being locked down but I think that keeping us from breaking into their devices is technically a win for Microsoft & a loss for us.

>I don't exactly see how Microsoft is losing by successfully protecting their product where most others have failed.
Normally, a company erects a walled garden when it has something to protect, eg a successful product, or a market lead that it doesn't want the competition to copy.
MS is erecting a walled garden for RT, a platform that is yet to have any audience, and at launch will behind its competitors in every metric--pricing, content, software, hardware. Perhaps you would be kind enough to point to me what it is that is worth protecting. To me, it's corporate idiocy gone amok.
Putting aside RT for the moment, Win8 is starting its leak to mainstream media now. Of the various Main Street reaction pieces being written about it, one word sums them up: "confusing." If Surface tanks, it'll be just one more in a long series of failed MS initiatives. But if Win8 tanks, it's a hit to its main piggy bank.
I like Win8, but I'm aware that people will have different reactions, and IMO Win8 is going to have a rough time with the userbase--rough enough that a comparison to Vista may be appropriate. No need to argue about it. Launch is next week, and we'll get plenty of reactions from the hoi polloi.
I'd love to have a full-fledged OS on a tablet. But Win8 is a WIP, and my gauge it'll take at least another cycle for mobile use. For my current use, I'm bypassing the Metro UI and using it as a regular desktop OS. My opinion of Windows-on-ARM (RT) is much less optimistic. It won't die, but it will be on life support, waiting for a resuscitation in version 2.0. Let's hope MS perseveres.

Um... no offense @e.mote, but WTF are you talking about? Surface RT starts at $499, not "over $600" by any stretch of the imagination, and there are other vendors announcing Windows RT devices too.
As for "rooting" it... it's Windows NT6.2, and very similar to the desktop version. Getting "root" is a UAC prompt away, nothing more. Heck, you can log in as Administrator if you want to (it's disabled by default, as on Win7, but it can be enabled). It's a multi-user OS (unlike iOS and most if not all Android installs) and uses standard Windows accounts ("Metro-style" Windows Store apps use low-privileged chambers, similar to WP7, but the standard user experience on the desktop is pretty similar to on x86 Win8 except you can't run third-party EXEs.
Now, if you want to talk about bypassing that little restriction on the end there... that'll take some work. It's probably possible, but it will depend on where the check is implemented and enforced, how much debug functionality is exposed in the OS (some things, like sideloading of "Metro" apps, is already known to be available), and how many layers of protection there are. Worst case, it'll take a ring-0 (kernel, essentially) exploit to overwrite the loader check in the running RAM image. More likely, it will require some moderate tweaking to put the device into a "test mode" plus installing a custom signing certificate and signing your binaries, or something similar to that.

Windows 7 or 8 which...

In all honesty who recommends windows 8 over windows 7 laptop?
Sent from my VM670 using Xparent Pink Tapatalk 2

No one
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---------- Post added at 07:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:40 PM ----------
I've got it on my desktop...Im not impressed. It would be good on a tablet but for a pc, eh...
Sent from my HTC One XL using xda premium

I would go for it. Running windows 8 on my laptop and there are no downsides once you get used to the new interface.
Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2

Who:
Gamers. It uses less system resources. Plus there are some decent games available in the Win8 store.
Anybody using multi-monitor systems; it has a bunch of cool new features for multi-mon.
Developers. If you want to write apps for the Windows Store, you have to be using Win8.
People buying very low-end PCs (see above comment about resources).
Anybody using virtualization (Client Hyper-V is awesome).
Anybody who wants to take advantage of Storage Spaces or other new Win8 features.
Anybody who wants their settings to sync automatically across their PCs (Windows account signin).
There are plenty of other advantages to Win8...

GoodDayToDie said:
Who:
Anybody using virtualization (Client Hyper-V is awesome).
There are plenty of other advantages to Win8...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
OK found a disadvantage (not really a disadvantage to the OS because it's a new, optional feature). On my computer, enabling hyper-v from windows setup locks the cpu to its max frequency, wasting the battery. Also, it breaks virtualbox so I can't boot guest os'es from there. Apparently, this only happens to Intel chips. So Hyper-V is really only worth it if you are only hosting Windows guests and 1) have an amd cpu or 2) have a desktop computer
Also, the new interface eats hdd space like crazy. Hdd usage has continuously been growing with each Windows release, but storage costs have been decreasing even faster, so it is a largely irrelevant issue, except that 1) windows 8 is meant to be used on low-capacity mobile devices, and 2) the advent of SSDs has led many users to replace their traditional HDDs with them, which leads to less storage space and a greater cost per gigabyte. Do not expect to run Windows 8 on a 32gb or smaller SSD unless the computer is going to be an Internet + Office device (as many $1500+ college student MacBooks become, ironically).

ganggreen30 said:
In all honesty who recommends windows 8 over windows 7 laptop?
Sent from my VM670 using Xparent Pink Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
people who know what their talking about. Get it, learn it, you won't regret it.
Sent from my Samsung Focus S using XDA Windows Phone 7 App

ganggreen30 said:
In all honesty who recommends windows 8 over windows 7 laptop?
Sent from my VM670 using Xparent Pink Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Me. I have it on 2 laptops, a netbook, a tablet and a desktop.

Considering that you can activate Windows 7 with Windows 8 key, it only makes sense to get Windows 8 devices now. If you hate it, just get a Windows 7 installer and downgrade.

One that has too much free time to offer support after the purchase is being made.

My thought is - the upgrade to Win8 is only a matter of time (unless you abandon Windows for Linux or MacOS - or wait 4 years for Win9).
Honestly, I'm not a "get on the cutting edge" kind of guy most of the time, but I did upgrade one of my servers simply to support WinRT dev and Remote Apps. I have to say I like Win8. I kinda like the desktop mode better than Win7, and some of the new features are really nice.
Upgrades are cheap now. $40 for a legit upgrade to Win8 Pro if you do it before Jan 31. I plan to upgrade all of my stuff before then.

I have it on my gaming rig, and I love it now. Took me some time to get used to the interface. Now I have tons of custom tiles for my steam games. Also, some games run better. I'm getting straight fps boosts in most cases.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using xda premium

I'd recommend it any day, I use it for my desktop and its great, the only time I use metro is when I use a metro app, some people are just over reacting to the whole new menu it really isn't that bad. I admit it that I would use the metro more if I had a touch screen as its made for that purpose but even with mouse it works quite good. Multiple monitors work great with it too
Sent from my MB860 using xda app-developers app

JihadSquad said:
OK found a disadvantage (not really a disadvantage to the OS because it's a new, optional feature). On my computer, enabling hyper-v from windows setup locks the cpu to its max frequency, wasting the battery. Also, it breaks virtualbox so I can't boot guest os'es from there. Apparently, this only happens to Intel chips. So Hyper-V is really only worth it if you are only hosting Windows guests and 1) have an amd cpu or 2) have a desktop computer
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It also breaks the Netflix app.

>the upgrade to Win8 is only a matter of time
Not really. I'm looking some sales info that's starting to roll in for Black Friday, and Win8 and associated hardware sales look like a major bust, worse than Vista. This of course goes double for WinRT and Surface RT. You can get some of the same indications by Googling (not Binging, heh) on "windows 8" sales black friday.
Some think that no matter how bad the adoption, Win8 will still succeed by virtue of being on every new PC. Again, not really. People are delaying their PC buys (and buying tablets instead), and Win7 is still an option.
All this isn't news to early adopters. Win8 has been in use among techies for a whole year, and we all know its fortes and foibles. We always knew that public adoption of Metro UI on the desktop (and laptop) was problematic. The overpricing on Win8 laptops/hybrids only made it worse. Interest in Win8 desktops and tablets is minimal.
My best guess is that as a short-term fix, MS will release a SP to allow boot-to-desktop and putting back the Start button, effectively cleaving Metro out for the desktop crowd. This will need to happen soon, some time in spring, if there's to be any chance of salvaging Win8. IMO, Win8's rep is already irreparably damaged, and it'll be up to Blue to leave the stigma behind with a fall 2013 release.
For those still on the fence, my advice is don't bother with Win8. There'll be a "fixed" version coming, whether a SP or a Win9 coming down the pike, and whatever investment you make to transition to Win8 will be wasted, as you'll have to do it again. I say this as a Win8 user.
Now you know the real reason why Sinofsky is gone. If Win8 was a success like Win7, he'd still be around. But it doesn't take a whole quarter of sales to see whether Win8 flies or dies, and by this time MS should have ample data for sales projection.

e.mote said:
>the upgrade to Win8 is only a matter of time
Not really. I'm looking some sales info that's starting to roll in for Black Friday, and Win8 and associated hardware sales look like a major bust, worse than Vista. This of course goes double for WinRT and Surface RT. You can get some of the same indications by Googling (not Binging, heh) on "windows 8" sales black friday.
Some think that no matter how bad the adoption, Win8 will still succeed by virtue of being on every new PC. Again, not really. People are delaying their PC buys (and buying tablets instead), and Win7 is still an option.
All this isn't news to early adopters. Win8 has been in use among techies for a whole year, and we all know its fortes and foibles. We always knew that public adoption of Metro UI on the desktop (and laptop) was problematic. The overpricing on Win8 laptops/hybrids only made it worse. Interest in Win8 desktops and tablets is minimal.
My best guess is that as a short-term fix, MS will release a SP to allow boot-to-desktop and putting back the Start button, effectively cleaving Metro out for the desktop crowd. This will need to happen soon, some time in spring, if there's to be any chance of salvaging Win8. IMO, Win8's rep is already irreparably damaged, and it'll be up to Blue to leave the stigma behind with a fall 2013 release.
For those still on the fence, my advice is don't bother with Win8. There'll be a "fixed" version coming, whether a SP or a Win9 coming down the pike, and whatever investment you make to transition to Win8 will be wasted, as you'll have to do it again. I say this as a Win8 user.
Now you know the real reason why Sinofsky is gone. If Win8 was a success like Win7, he'd still be around. But it doesn't take a whole quarter of sales to see whether Win8 flies or dies, and by this time MS should have ample data for sales projection.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First of all, 8 hasn't "taken off" but the sales are on par with 7, and the launch sales were pretty significantly higher than 7.
"Win8 has been in use among techies for a whole year, and we all know its fortes and foibles. We always knew that public adoption of Metro UI on the desktop (and laptop) was problematic."
This is pretty much bull****. Most self proclaimed "techies" who disliked it never even used it- it's all just "I read it was bad from some blogger and hey, let's all jump on the MS is stupid again bandwagon!"
Those that did use it never knew how to properly use it because they went in hating it, never gave a real effort to use it, *****ed about how hard it was and called their crappy self confirmation bias a terrible "experience". Experience my ass. Learning curves are not inherently bad. In fact most *real* "techies", ie server admins and people who can think for themselves, really like what 8 has to offer.
I suspect that a lot of PC gamers don't know what's good for them and hate 8 for no other reason than Gabe Newell hates 8. And you know why he hates 8? If you take what he says at face value, he sounds like an old fart who has used Macs all his life. The real reason is competition- he is worried that 8 might actually catch on and threaten steam sales via the store.
It's so hard to know what the average user actually thinks because the whole damned thing is so steeped in political and other various biases. But you know what I say? Shut your damn mouth. There's no reason to *not* buy 8 now that it's $40, there's nothing but benefits to the system, and all perceived "negative traits" are so easily changed or removed that I'm surprised the lazy assholes who refuse to get 8 because of them haven't died from starvation, being too lazy to stand up and go shove food at their faces.
There's nothing wrong with 8, it's well worth the money- telling people to "not bother" is only going to make a self fulfilling prophecy that does not need to happen.
GOOD DAY, SIR.

>But you know what I say? Shut your damn mouth...I'm surprised the lazy assholes who refuse to get 8 because of them haven't died from starvation, being too lazy to stand up and go shove food at their faces.
.

Zardos66 said:
Also, some games run better. I'm getting straight fps boosts in most cases.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm pretty sure they've shown gaming increases to be negligible unless you're running hardware that has conflicts with Win 7 and not Win 8. I wanna say Tom's Hardware did a shootout where they ran the same two machines with Win 7 and Win 8 and showed +/- 2 FPS in all games except one.
Edit: Found the link
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/windows-8-gaming-performance,3331.html
link68759 said:
I suspect that a lot of PC gamers don't know what's good for them and hate 8 for no other reason than Gabe Newell hates 8.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hate is a pretty strong word. I don't hate Windows 8. I do hate the "Modern (Not Metro)" UI, as I feel it sacrifices information density and customization for the sake of aesthetics, which I find to be mostly useless. I don't care if my OS is pretty. I care if it works. I especially don't care if it's designed for a method of input that I not only do not own, but do not plan to purchase.
I've been using Windows my entire life. My first home computer (at 8 years old) had Windows 95. When the local computer store told us that we couldn't install Windows 98 (Not enough RAM), I took the copy home and installed it myself. I skipped 2000 and ME because they were garbage, and bought a new store-built for Windows XP. After the recovery partition got corrupted and HP told me that to get a copy of the discs would cost $60 + shipping, I went out and bought Windows XP Pro. I skipped Vista, because it was garbage, and bought a new Win 7 laptop a week after the launch of the new OS.
With my level of familiarity with the Windows OS I would say that I am a power user. I am equally comfortable on the command line and in the policy editors. With the latest incarnation of the OS Windows has lost me. I now have a laptop that I'm triple booting Win 7 Ult, Win 8 Pro, and Linux Mint Cinnamon, while my main computer (now degraded to file server) is running a bulletproof install of XP that hasn't been reinstalled since late 2004. It'd be on Win 7 ultimate if nVidia didn't buy out ULi and decide that making Vista+ drivers for their RAID hardware was a fruitless endeavor.
I love the fact that they have optimized the underlayings of the operating system. A more efficient registry with a lot of bloat cut out really increases Windows performance, and you can plainly tell in Windows 8. That along with features in Pro that I bought Win 7 Ult for is a big bonus, especially at the $40 price point.
My biggest gripes are touch input. It's a gimmick. I've spent the last 17 years yelling at my parents, coworkers, nieces, nephews, and any other asshole who dared touch my screen and leave their nasty greasy fingerprints on my display device. I don't want to touch my screen. Ever. It's a desktop computer, not a tablet, and requiring me to mimic campy finger gestures with my mouse is annoying. The neon pastel color scheme looks like it came out of My Little Ponie's My First Computer, and not an adult's operating system, and even customizing the colors leaves you with nasty shades. Then there's Windows Explorer. Imagine my frustration when I hit Alt+V and a ****ING RIBBON pops up with my options. I hated Ribbons in Office 2007, hoped they'd be gone in 2010, but at least they made major improvements. Now the same menu that used to be maybe 100 pixels by 100 pixels is expanded to fill up a 600 x 100 pixel space, with no additional functionality.
I feel like Microsoft is telling me that "[I'm] holding it wrong." I always bought Microsoft because of the level of customization I was afforded. Looks like it's finally time to learn Linux.

e.mote said:
>the upgrade to Win8 is only a matter of time
Not really. I'm looking some sales info that's starting to roll in for Black Friday, and Win8 and associated hardware sales look like a major bust, worse than Vista. This of course goes double for WinRT and Surface RT. You can get some of the same indications by Googling (not Binging, heh) on "windows 8" sales black friday.
Some think that no matter how bad the adoption, Win8 will still succeed by virtue of being on every new PC. Again, not really. People are delaying their PC buys (and buying tablets instead), and Win7 is still an option.
All this isn't news to early adopters. Win8 has been in use among techies for a whole year, and we all know its fortes and foibles. We always knew that public adoption of Metro UI on the desktop (and laptop) was problematic. The overpricing on Win8 laptops/hybrids only made it worse. Interest in Win8 desktops and tablets is minimal.
My best guess is that as a short-term fix, MS will release a SP to allow boot-to-desktop and putting back the Start button, effectively cleaving Metro out for the desktop crowd. This will need to happen soon, some time in spring, if there's to be any chance of salvaging Win8. IMO, Win8's rep is already irreparably damaged, and it'll be up to Blue to leave the stigma behind with a fall 2013 release.
For those still on the fence, my advice is don't bother with Win8. There'll be a "fixed" version coming, whether a SP or a Win9 coming down the pike, and whatever investment you make to transition to Win8 will be wasted, as you'll have to do it again. I say this as a Win8 user.
Now you know the real reason why Sinofsky is gone. If Win8 was a success like Win7, he'd still be around. But it doesn't take a whole quarter of sales to see whether Win8 flies or dies, and by this time MS should have ample data for sales projection.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First, Black Friday is now and has always been a day to offload all the old, **** stock. It is not now, nor has it ever been, about selling the new, current stock.
Microsoft has no interest in going backwards. There is a new SDK that is coming out that will merge Windows and Windows Phone development. In the future you will target screen size and resources, just like in the past. There will not be a desktop/mobile choice like there is now.
When Microsoft releases an update for Windows 8, it will no doubt be to remove MORE of the desktop features and move them to Metro. I already think there are way to many trips to the desktop for RT users to do things like configure keyboard, mouse, network, file management, etc.
No one thinks their computer is easier to use than their phone.

>Hate is a pretty strong word. I don't hate Windows 8.
As said, Win8 is no longer a new thing, having been in available to techies for over a year. We all have our opinions on it by now, and there's no need to justify it to anyone.
>With the latest incarnation of the OS Windows has lost me...I feel like Microsoft is telling me that "[I'm] holding it wrong."
Yes, legacy support was always the Windows mantra, going all the way back to Windows 3.0. It was the major reason that Win95 prevailed over OS/2 (anyone here old enough to remember that far back?) The Windows userbase got thrown under the bus in the rush to adopt mobile. Since Sinofsky was the man in charge, and as imperious as he was, I have little doubt of the culprit. That he's summarily tossed out face-first is a good sign that dumping the desktop may not have been a wise move, thus my expectation for rapproachment with the desktop crowd.
MS has trumpeted the "40 million licenses sold" pretty loudly, and is good fodder for fanboys to rally behind. But those who know the difference between sell-in vs sell-through take the PR spiel with a yawn. Yes, MS claimed the same for "strong" Vista sales vs XP five years ago.
http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Windows/Microsoft-Says-Vista-Sales-Strong/
>Microsoft has no interest in going backwards.
You can only forward if the userbase follows. There is no "going forward" if Win8 flops. Win7 still works just fine, just as XP still works just fine for a large segment of the userbase. Unlike years past where Win is the dominant monopoly, there are now viable choices. The many iPads users have lock-ins to Apple's ecosystem, and buying a Mac is becoming an appealing choice, even moreso if "new" Windows forces a substantial learning curve. Again, I say this as a current Win8 user.
>When Microsoft releases an update for Windows 8, it will no doubt be to remove MORE of the desktop features and move them to Metro.
The fundamental problem with the "Metro uber alles" view is that it can't replace the desktop WIMP metaphor with multiple overlapping windows. Try doing Photoshop, or any heavy-duty productivity applications with a single window (or the 1/4 split window). You can't. To say the desktop will disappear is just plain idiotic.
>No one thinks their computer is easier to use than their phone.
Spoken like a true consumer who only knows how to consume content rather than produce it. If yours were true, then you shouldn't be using Windows, because iOS and Android already have the phone market cornered.
Anyway, we'll know soon enough how Win8 sales go, once the new year rolls around. That's only a month away. Wait and see, yes?

@TheScaryOne: If you think 2000 was crap compared to 98, then you are part of the problem with why a Windows "Power User" is considered a complete joke on whoever would call themselves that. The entire Win9x family, from first release of 95 through to ME, was a complete technological backwater compared to the NT family (which includes 2000). Yes, it used a bunch of hand-tuned assembly code to let it boot up and run quickly on low-RAM systems, but in turn you sacrificed
* stability (soooo many crashes, and it was terrible at recovering from them)
* reliability (no filesystem journaling so data loss or corruption on a crash was common, etc.)
* security (it had *no* support for a permissions system so you couldn't run with anything other than "admin" permissions, and was full of exploitable bugs)
* portability (single-CPU x86 systems only, and low caps on amount of usable RAM and HDD space)
* features (the NT line was, especially back then, the only true "power user" environment).
OK, with that out of the way...
Why are you spending any time in the "metro" environment if you don't like it? Ever since Vista, if you actually use the Start menu with a mouse, you're doing it wrong. Windows key + <first few letters of program name> + Enter. You can be launching a program before Start finishes its load animation.
The ribbon takes up less space than a menu bar + toolbar, or than the Win7 "command bar" used in Explorer, unless you for some reason leave it open all the time. As a "power user" shouldn't you be using keyboard shortcuts and context menus instead of moving your mouse up to the top of the window anyhow? The ribbon is for people who aren't familiar with what a program can do, but want to find things. The keyboard (and to a lesser extend context menus) are for people who already know how to use the system. The old menus are for people who only ever learned a bunch of operations by rote... it may have taken me a whole week to get used to them, back when they first appeared in a pre-release version of what wasn't even yet called Office 2007.
... I could go on, but I'm not sure there's a point. If you want to live in the past and ignore the last half decade of usability improvements to Windows (which I'll admit Metro doesn't count as if you're using a mouse and keyboard, but it's only a very slight downgrade and since you didn't even mention that particular flaw I doubt you're even aware of it; if you use touch it's a *huge* upgrade though), nobody here can stop you. We might laugh and shake our heads, though.