Related
Ok, guys. After installing and testing some of the best and popular android builds I came around to write my opinions here.
First thing first... I appreciate all the works by guys who made android SD builds.
Second, sorry if my English is not good enough.
I purchased my hd2 about a month ago. And after some research I decide to install wp7 and android on it.
But the question for me was which android build will be more suitable?
Here are some important key features to choose from:
1. Reliable
2. Fast
3. Stable
4. Smooth
5. User friendly
6. Pre-installed programs
7. Development cycle
8. Compatibility
9. Error and bug free
10. Battery usage
11. Cutting edge technology
Between these key features, 3 builds were more competitive.
1. American android
2. Desire DL
3. Rafdriod
For those who like pre install programs, HTC sense and software compatibility, go for Desire DL or Rafdriod which both are based on Froyo 2.2.1, I personally prefer Rafdriod between these two. Because, it's more reliable, less freezes, a bit faster and more battery efficiency. Both Froyo Builds are more android software market installation compatible.
But for those who needs stable, reliable, user friendly, cutting edge technology, error and bug free, smooth, fast and more battery efficiency OS, I recommed using gingerbread builds which American android is one the best builds based on gingerbread 2.3.3
Anyway, you may experience some Android market application installation compatibility issue on gingerbread builds, which I think it’s worth it to wait for newer versions of those applications that work with gingerbread.
Here is comparison Chart Attached
Have a great time installing your Android....
Thanks. Many if not most of us spend a lot of time for finding the best build for their needs. This is part of the fun, but reading other people's experiences is surely helpful.
I greatly appreciate this... i have been doong this since my hd2 came in on the second shippment. I have grown tired of following dev's/ cook's just to see there near perfect builds. Then boom they are gone and buiod is stuck. I have been looking to move to rafdroid and now feel confident. So thank you for this info.
Sent from my HTC Desire HD using XDA App
I am using Rafdriod 4.2 and is running continously 2 days. Use mainly for calls and a bit of wifi, switch to airplane mode when I retire for the night.
I can say the build is excellent and the battery consumption is decent, suitable for normal day-to-day usage. Will try 'American andriod' soon.
Awesome thread. Really appreciate your thoughtful research on the top sd based android.
my opinion: both MCCM's and BOYPPC's Gingerbread builds are far better than AmeriCanDroid builds
wow! it seems American Android is the best since it is free of bugs and smooth....will download & test it ASAP!! Thanks!
Thanked! I narrowed my choice down between RAFDROID and DL Desire, mainly because I wanted a rom with SenseUI. After reading this I think I'm gonna go with RAFDROID!
pappt said:
my opinion: both MCCM's and BOYPPC's Gingerbread builds are far better than AmeriCanDroid builds
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Can you elaborate please?
I have tested MCCM HD 4.0 (Froyo), was laggy and battery eater. DesireDL 2.1 was better for me.
Thanks to the OP for this comparison ! Now I'm hesitating between RafDroid 4.2 and AmericanDroid. Will test both I think...
thivi said:
Can you elaborate please?
I have tested MCCM HD 4.0 (Froyo), was laggy and battery eater. DesireDL 2.1 was better for me.
Thanks to the OP for this comparison ! Now I'm hesitating between RafDroid 4.2 and AmericanDroid. Will test both I think...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
the HD 4.0 is a 2.2 build, but i talked about Gingerbread builds...MCCM's GB build temporaly kick from xda, but you can try BOYPPC GB v5, it's on the forum.
I've tried RAF and AA versions.
I found the RAF version very usable but just the odd time it would hang at all the wrong times, trying to answer a call or simply unlocking the device. The rest of the OS was brilliant and worked well. The hanging just made me think i have to try another flavour android.
So I went onto AA.
Seems to fly, no hangs yet but data keeps dropping and that's starting to get annoying. I can be browsing quite happily for the data to just stop working. I've tried various fixes. Thankfully this version doesn't require a restart to get data working but it's still a pain to go and switch off data and then back on again.
Battery life has been average, would have expected better by now to be honest.
If a dev can just meet in the middle I'll be the happiest chap in the world
Good post, I pretty much agree with the comparison.
AmericanDroid is definitely the "best" overall SD Android version on HD2.
Now I will give a subsctancial donation to any developer managing to make a "real" sense build (with HTC sense, and not just a theme) as stable as AmericanDroid, even if the battery life is a bit (not too much) shorter.
This is very informative post, and matches my experience. But, since I'm not ready to completely give WM6.5 up, I'd like you to tell me how NAND builds compare to this. If AA gets 10 for stability, reliability, smoothness and speed, would same NAND build get 12? Would NAND Rafdroid score better than SD? How everything compares to native Android devices?
I personally have given up trying any of the Sense builds because of the battery drain.
MCCM GB V2.2 SD and Americandroid are both on a par (about a days moderate to heavy use) but I seem to have settled on MCCM.
I will go to a nand build in the near future as I have not booted into 6.5 in the last 2 weeks and have not missed it.
I have been testing the 'beta' version of the UI I used to use on winmo and am loving it on top of gingerbread. Can't wait to buy it when it comes out
It's normal MCCM is similar... that guy's not a dev, he copy/pastes the work of other devs among which Americandroid.
corrsea said:
..........but I seem to have settled on MCCM..........
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Me too...after trying out various ROMs
Wildcopper said:
It's normal MCCM is similar... that guy's not a dev, he copy/pastes the work of other devs among which Americandroid.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That may or may not be true, but I can say MCCM's V4.5 [DESIRE HD Sense] is fast and the data conection is rock solid. I had connection issues with AA. I plan to try AA again to see it those bugs have been worked out.
If you compare light grey with pure black, you'll see that the light grey is brighter.
But when you compare the light grey with white, definitely the white will be brighter .
My point is, Just because American's is better than the rest it doesn't mean it's good .
At the end, it's just my opinion . Thanks for the thread
Hey Fake, excellent guide! This helps me to choose the one that fits me. Greatly appreciated your work.
A comparision of android ??? With 2 post every year ???
baybay317 said:
Hey Fake, excellent guide! This helps me to choose the one that fits me. Greatly appreciated your work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I dont believe this...!!!!!!!!!!!
Guys ...This thread is put together by a man who has only 9 post sinse 2006!!!
And his 10ht post its a guide to choose the BEst android build ?????
This is bold ...very bold !!!!!!!!!
Come on man...did you try all the android builds ??? for how long ???
And the points that you give them are from where ????
I am using android for so long and i cant still say what build is the best or give them points (good or bad)...
I just answer ppls questions and give them quidelines so the can run the build they want...
I dont tell them that this build has 10 battery and 7 usability !!!!!!!!!!
And the other build ...other numbers!!!!!!!!
I have come to welcome all the help that ppl can give in this forum....
But a guide on what is the best android build ?????
From someone who post 2 times every year ?????????
No ...not for me ...!!!!
my 2c on this...
colossus
Hey guys,
I`am thinking of ordering a Oppo Find 5 32GB, i have a Nexus 4 atm and i`am looking for something new.
Is it a definate upgrade? The specs on paper seem great but how does the phone do in real life.
Would appreciate some user feedback
Same here. I am thinking of doing the same. I am particularly hoping for a stable PA/CM10.1 ROM soon, and more kernel development if possible.
gee2012 said:
Hey guys,
I`am thinking of ordering a Oppo Find 5 32GB, i have a Nexus 4 atm and i`am looking for something new.
Is it a definate upgrade? The specs on paper seem great but how does the phone do in real life.
Would appreciate some user feedback
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
it's not a goodupgrade..
same CPU, RAM, GPU, same problems with: OTG, no microSD expansion, no removable battery
you get a better/larger display, slightly better(in specs) or worse(in terms of software capabilities so far) camera....
and worse battery life / smoothless/performance in ROMs.....and more expensive
no matter how good the CM10.1 port for the find 5 is, nexus 4 ports will be snappier as they have the backing of google
If ports are based on aosp how can they be snappier .....only a bit of kernel tweaks and some camera enhancements will make this phone awesome
Sent from my Find 5 using Tapatalk 2
munchy_cool said:
If ports are based on aosp how can they be snappier .....only a bit of kernel tweaks and some camera enhancements will make this phone awesome
Sent from my Find 5 using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i'm talking specifically about the device/kernel tree....
for nexus 4, it comes from google (who has access to all the proprietary documents, binaries)
for oppo find 5, it comes from people like XpLoDWilD, Entropy512, ... . They may have to interpret that info based on how the Oppo Stock Rom works, previous experience, hacks needed to make stuff work...
this portion will contain bugs / inefficiencies in the codebase
and when you move from different android versions, the proprietary binaries differ and may not be compatible. For Nexus devices, google gives you those updated binaries... for other devices (like Oppo), you may have to beg Oppo to get the latest binaries, steal it from a similar device that has the update, or hack your way (which creates inefficiencies / bugs)
see: https://developers.google.com/android/nexus/drivers
this is why you have: stable cm10.1 ports on some devices, but still buggy/slow compared to the nexus line
paperWastage said:
i'm talking specifically about the device/kernel tree....
for nexus 4, it comes from google (who has access to all the proprietary documents, binaries)
for oppo find 5, it comes from people like XpLoDWilD, Entropy512, ... . They may have to interpret that info based on how the Oppo Stock Rom works, previous experience, hacks needed to make stuff work...
this portion will contain bugs / inefficiencies in the codebase
and when you move from different android versions, the proprietary binaries differ and may not be compatible. For Nexus devices, google gives you those updated binaries... for other devices (like Oppo), you may have to beg Oppo to get the latest binaries, steal it from a similar device that has the update, or hack your way (which creates inefficiencies / bugs)
see: https://developers.google.com/android/nexus/drivers
this is why you have: stable cm10.1 ports on some devices, but still buggy/slow compared to the nexus line
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree with you but that's the case with all non-Google devices.
if you want latest android version you gotta stick with Google devices.
munchy_cool said:
I agree with you but that's the case with all non-Google devices.
if you want latest android version you gotta stick with Google devices.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i'm talking about the device tree on the current android version.... device tree port by CM developers vs device tree from google
since hardware is mostly the same from nexus 4, but you're moving software-wise from a "optimized" port (with device tree from google) to a Cm10.1 port (with device tree that is still buggy and not optimized by google)..
don't see the reason to switch from nexus 4.
Find 5: aosp -> cm10.1 + device tree from CM developers = ROM
Nexus 4: aosp -> cm10.1 + google's device tree = better ROM
replace cm10.1 with anything else (AOKP, PAC, PA)...
paperWastage said:
i'm talking about the device tree on the current android version.... device tree port by CM developers vs device tree from google
since hardware is mostly the same from nexus 4, but you're moving software-wise from a "optimized" port (with device tree from google) to a Cm10.1 port (with device tree that is still buggy and not optimized by google)..
don't see the reason to switch from nexus 4.
Find 5: aosp -> cm10.1 + device tree from CM developers = ROM
Nexus 4: aosp -> cm10.1 + google's device tree = better ROM
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
the reason to switch from n4 would be better & bigger screen, but in that case I would recommend the DNA
I'm making the switch. Mainly for the screen and I didn't feel like paying $650 for the dev HTC One. It'll be interesting to see how Oppo's firmware is as well.
I switched from a Nexus 4 that I've had since November. I was just getting tired of the device and was looking for something with a slightly larger/higher resolution display, but I wasn't looking for a full on phablet (Note II). I have been incredibly satisfied with the unit's build quality and am only slightly thrown off by it's less than stellar stock rom. No worries though, as PA has been rock solid for me. :good::good: Two thumbs up on making the switch!
I'm also thinking of making the switch and also coming from a nexus 4. What I want to see get more development though is on the android ROMs as there are none. On the original android development I do see cm 10.1,pa,ect.. Which is pretty much the stuff I'm running on the nexus 4 already. I wanna see oppo find 5 u.i based roms.if I'm gonna make the switch and use the same base ROMs as the nexus 4 I might as well stick with the nexus 4 instead.
marcviado said:
I'm also thinking of making the switch and also coming from a nexus 4. What I want to see get more development though is on the android ROMs as there are none. On the original android development I do see cm 10.1,pa,ect.. Which is pretty much the stuff I'm running on the nexus 4 already. I wanna see oppo find 5 u.i based roms.if I'm gonna make the switch and use the same base ROMs as the nexus 4 I might as well stick with the nexus 4 instead.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think it is pretty unlikely that you'll see a lot of custom ROM's for Find 5, considering much lower number of users compared to other phones.
I think i`am gonna stick with the N4 for now and mainly for its optimized firmware. The firmware of the Oppo is clearly not as good (or finished) as the N4`s. Pitty, would have liked to try it out. Aah well, maybe at a later point or its successor. Thanks for the reply`s guys :good:
marcviado said:
I'm also thinking of making the switch and also coming from a nexus 4. What I want to see get more development though is on the android ROMs as there are none. On the original android development I do see cm 10.1,pa,ect.. Which is pretty much the stuff I'm running on the nexus 4 already. I wanna see oppo find 5 u.i based roms.if I'm gonna make the switch and use the same base ROMs as the nexus 4 I might as well stick with the nexus 4 instead.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
MIUI is the closest "alternative" to Find 5's stock UI rom... find one (probably won't be on XDA) that works on a phone you would want, then buy that phone
next alternative would be the iPhone
N4 owner as well. While I have a hard time putting down my Find 5, if I'm to be totally honest, the N4 is hard to beat. Mostly software I guess, its hard to find a flaw. The Find 5 is still being optimized and tweaked on a regular basis... which is great but not needed in the Nexus. Still though, the Find 5 is one nice device with a lot of potential!
sent from my <Nexus 7>
Hi all here is a first video look at the MIUI rom for the Oppo Find 5.
It has some nice features and very good battery life.
Have a look:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y-TIi_FVjI&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Good to see you back. Congratulations btw.
Works really great, but Skype only works via ear speaker. You guys experience the same?
robifis said:
Hi all here is a first video look at the MIUI rom for the Oppo Find 5.
It has some nice features and very good battery life.
Have a look:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y-TIi_FVjI&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If it weren't for MIUI I would have a very BORING phone.
I had installed latest MIUI, but I found it very laggy... Even with Faux - Kernel.
Gesendet von meinem GT-N5110 mit Tapatalk 2
kdkinc said:
If it weren't for MIUI I would have a very BORING phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep you're not wrong. Though I must say, its not as well optimised for gaming as Stock or CM.
kdkinc said:
If it weren't for MIUI I would have a very BORING phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hang in there, Firefly/Color ROM will be released soon and that's pretty close to miui. With the ability to change themes and lockscreen locks.. super smooth, and personal space tweaks.. Its much more fun than the current firmware! And the phone is running Jelly Bean accompanied with some really nice specs and a handful of custom ROMs including official CM support. Windows Phones are boring
We will get the update to 4.2.x next month- August.
Sent from my X909 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
Just to quote that public official beta will be released tomorrow in china English language not sure if other languages will be included and its now COLOR ROM project firefly has been canceled and moved on to COLOR ROM
Sent from my X909 using xda app-developers app
great
great
MIUI also has some disadvantages
not strong, hot , and so on...
but it's still a good rom in all..
Great cheap Phone!
Great over rom MIUI, but I use MIUI on oppo finder.
Lover finder.
Congratulations!
MIUI has a lot of useful functions.
But Hot Battery...
I have read in Oppo forum that this rom is buggy with slow animation. Can someone compare the battery life of this rom's with the cm10.1 rom's?
Don't like this
looks to much like a toy in my opinion, and I think it will use a lot of battery
I have a developer [MENTION=376022]Mandy $ingh who is willing to make cm 13 based rom for the samsung j7 (SM-J700T1) MODEL.
I'm asking for donations for Mandy $ingh for his hard work. please and thank you
1. me = $20 with Paypal
2. Nillerz = $15 with Bitcoins
TOTAL SO FAR
$35
Is this just where we pledge? I'll pledge 15 dollars for Cyanogenmod if it's ever made, I can pay in Bitcoins.
It will have the same j700h/f/m bugs
messi2050 said:
It will have the same j700h/f/m bugs
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What about resurrection remix? What if he tried porting that?
brandonlee96 said:
What about resurrection remix? What if he tried porting that?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Rr and all similar roms are based on cm so it will have the same bugs as cm.
messi2050 said:
Rr and all similar roms are based on cm so it will have the same bugs as cm.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i have a J700T. how hard is it to learn how to port and develop cm.
The main issues that we'll have will most likely be camera and Bluetooth. The exynos processor doesn't seem to jive well with CM.
Believe me, I would like CM as well but unfortunately it will be somewhat buggy and this particular device isn't "bringing tha boys to the yard" as far as development goes. Don't get me wrong, I think this device is pretty awesome and had some high hopes for development but alas, we are stuck with tweaked touchwhiz roms. Cm 14 was even ported but lots of bugs like bluetooth, display, audio, etc.
Not trying to crush any dreams here, just being realistic.
However, once a Nougat touchwhiz rom leaks (should be in a few weeks) a port is possible. A good note 7 port (no bugs) would be awesome.
sent from this device using this app....
OriginalShinken1 said:
The main issues that we'll have will most likely be camera and Bluetooth. The exynos processor doesn't seem to jive well with CM.
Believe me, I would like CM as well but unfortunately it will be somewhat buggy and this particular device isn't "bringing tha boys to the yard" as far as development goes. Don't get me wrong, I think this device is pretty awesome and had some high hopes for development but alas, we are stuck with tweaked touchwhiz roms. Cm 14 was even ported but lots of bugs like bluetooth, display, audio, etc.
Not trying to crush any dreams here, just being realistic.
However, once a Nougat touchwhiz rom leaks (should be in a few weeks) a port is possible. A good note 7 port (no bugs) would be awesome.
sent from this device using this app....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Bluetooth is a problem to me I rarely use it. And the camera cant we just find a camera app from the play store that will be capable with the cm based Rom. But I'm not complaining at all I'm just putting my w sense in.
for some, no bluetooth is a big issue. the camera issue is (maybe) easy to workaround because of other camera apps, unless it's the system (not the camera app) that's causing the camera not to work.
OriginalShinken1 said:
The main issues that we'll have will most likely be camera and Bluetooth. The exynos processor doesn't seem to jive well with CM.
Believe me, I would like CM as well but unfortunately it will be somewhat buggy and this particular device isn't "bringing tha boys to the yard" as far as development goes. Don't get me wrong, I think this device is pretty awesome and had some high hopes for development but alas, we are stuck with tweaked touchwhiz roms. Cm 14 was even ported but lots of bugs like bluetooth, display, audio, etc.
Not trying to crush any dreams here, just being realistic.
However, once a Nougat touchwhiz rom leaks (should be in a few weeks) a port is possible. A good note 7 port (no bugs) would be awesome.
sent from this device using this app....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I just got the Samsung note 7 experience ROM to flash and boot on the j700t1 but there is problems WiFi don't work and the camera crashes the phone and I got the resurrection remix N to go to the boot animation but no go
brandonlee96 said:
I just got the Samsung note 7 experience ROM to flash and boot on the j700t1 but there is problems WiFi don't work and the camera crashes the phone and I got the resurrection remix N to go to the boot animation but no go
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Have you figured out how to fix the wifi
mario1634 said:
Have you figured out how to fix the wifi
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
no i gave up
brandonlee96 said:
no i gave up
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Have you got any other ROM to boot other than note7
Why is there so little love for this device?
there is only 5 threads in the dev subforum.
2 of them is about recovery
1 is on unofficial LineageOS
1 on a DPI changing patch and the last one on beta MIUI 9
thinking to myself if i've decided on the less loved device lol
Xiaomi has not released the kernel source. This makes development challenging. Things are probably going to change when that happens in roughly 5 months (based on delay to release Mi Max sources).
wwwwe said:
Xiaomi has not released the kernel source. This makes development challenging. Things are probably going to change when that happens in roughly 5 months (based on delay to release Mi Max sources).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
holy ...
this is my 1st xiaomi device. didn't know they take so long to release their sources.
5 months is a long time man lol... that is kinda disappointing.
but let's just hope it'll be sooner, thats all users can do..
I was an earlier obsessive ROM/kernel flasher and have now sort of settled down. I honestly feel that stock roms are good enough for most general use cases. What I would suggest is to get on the Global MIUI beta for the weekly updates. Nothing offers more stabiility (in terms of connectivity, bluetooth, GPS, etc) for a device as the stock rom and I am saying this from experience.
praveen6585 said:
I was an earlier obsessive ROM/kernel flasher and have now sort of settled down. I honestly feel that stock roms are good enough for most general use cases. What I would suggest is to get on the Global MIUI beta for the weekly updates. Nothing offers more stabiility (in terms of connectivity, bluetooth, GPS, etc) for a device as the stock rom and I am saying this from experience.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you for the inputs.
I played around for a day / two but MIUI, it is just a little too messy.
Settings seems to be all over the place.
I've been on android devices since cupcake and always like the simplicity of aosp or lineage in this case ever since cyan. That is y I'm looking forward to lineage official support. I guess it'll happen, just gotta wait till kernel source is releaseed. :fingers-crossed:
praveen6585 said:
I was an earlier obsessive ROM/kernel flasher and have now sort of settled down. I honestly feel that stock roms are good enough for most general use cases. What I would suggest is to get on the Global MIUI beta for the weekly updates. Nothing offers more stabiility (in terms of connectivity, bluetooth, GPS, etc) for a device as the stock rom and I am saying this from experience.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree. With my first android phones, custom roms could be an improvement. But now adays, theyre usually worse. I have had a redmi note 2, redmi note 3, mi max and now mi max 2. Miui-roms has been the best rom for all of them. especially battery life and camera.
I root, delete apps I dont want, choose the launcher and theme I want and I can get the look I prefer.
noobhero said:
Thank you for the inputs.
I played around for a day / two but MIUI, it is just a little too messy.
Settings seems to be all over the place.
I've been on android devices since cupcake and always like the simplicity of aosp or lineage in this case ever since cyan. That is y I'm looking forward to lineage official support. I guess it'll happen, just gotta wait till kernel source is releaseed. :fingers-crossed:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
MIUI is not that bad at all in my opinion. Give it a try a little more. It's not bloated, interface is relatively clean. I just don't like that dodgy built-in cleaner app.
Cryonics said:
MIUI is not that bad at all in my opinion. Give it a try a little more. It's not bloated, interface is relatively clean. I just don't like that dodgy built-in cleaner app.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
it'll come a day, whereby things will just be like @praveen6585 .. i'll get tired of following updates and flashing this unlocking that and just settle with what comes out of the box. there's just too much options nowadays.. and too much to read into lol.
There will be more mi max 2 buy by Indians as there is huge discount in flipkart. So future development will be good for this giant.
Got this phone for INR 11700/- (184 USD)
4GB RAM/32 GB.
Now looking back worried, because there seems to be no stable custom ROMs out there...
Xiaomi4X said:
Got this phone for INR 11700/- (184 USD)
4GB RAM/32 GB.
Now looking back worried, because there seems to be no stable custom ROMs out there...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They r great at coming out with cheap phones with good specs but suport is ughs.
I now only use this for media consumption if am not on my tablet.
Have moved on to the op5t.
This have been a standby for me anyway. I’ll be glad if theres even a decent kernel out there.
Cryonics said:
MIUI is not that bad at all in my opinion. Give it a try a little more. It's not bloated, interface is relatively clean. I just don't like that dodgy built-in cleaner app.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm with you. I'm a former serial flasher with all my samsung phones but now I'm more than content to have something that just works...no crashes, no spontaneous reboots, no compromises. I did switch to the DEV rom so I get weekly updates which suits me fine. LOVE this phone.
um...
https://forum.xda-developers.com/mi-max-2/development/available-stock-custom-roms-mi-max-2-t3737523
besides, kernel sources were released just 16 days ago. give it some time, im sure there will be something more coming up soon-ish