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new os for phones

so just a thought , you guys know of any other new os for phones that are in development that look really promising?

With out the app market systems og Android, IPhone, and the Windows, I do not see how any OS Will grab a foothole for a long time.

boominz28 said:
so just a thought , you guys know of any other new os for phones that are in development that look really promising?
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There's bada, which appears to be stripped down android that samsung wants to start using for entry level "smart" phones.

MeeGo springs to mind as the only OS that isn't already out and has a chance to be a contender

The only two real possibilities might be WebOS and Meego, but even they probably have no real future unless they can encapsulate Android compatibility and offer something compelling that goes above and beyond it. WebOS might pull it off, but IMHO Meego is a lost cause, just because:
a) Nokia is its only real supporter,
b) Nokia has allowed itself to become almost completely irrelevant in America as both a brand name AND technology provider,
c) it's almost impossible IMHO for any hardware platform with basically zero mindshare in America to become more than a niche local product. America might be a small part of the global market in terms of units sold, but it's a very influential part of it. Nokia's fatal mistake was assuming that the sole value of the American market was the (minimal) revenue it made by selling phones to American carriers, while totally ignoring the staggering global influence of American media on the rest of the world. The outcome is something we've all seen... 5 years of "Smartphone Roundups" that didn't even mention the EXISTENCE of Nokia phones, and led to them becoming all but irrelevant among high end phone users even in their own home market: Europe. Nokia might try waving the flag and getting people to think Android is "too American"... and they'll fail, because it seems like at least half of Android's core developers are European (even if they live and work in Mountain View), and I don't think even Google will ever really be able to control Android's future global destiny once Chinese developers get tired of waiting for Google to fix things they care about passionately and just take matters into their own hands in ways that cause it to lose full compatibility with "mainstream" Android in ways that can't easily be reconciled.
It's not impossible that some other standard might emerge from China (unique in the sense that its domestic market is basically the same size as the entire rest of the world minus India and Africa, and most phones sold worldwide actually COME from China), but even in China, I'd put the smart money on either Android or a mostly-compatible fork of it. IMHO, China's contribution to our future happiness will be phones that are like PCs... more or less commodity hardware differentiated by speed, aesthetics, ergonomics, and niche peripherals that's perfectly happy running GoogleAndroid, a Chinese variant of Android, Windows*, or a slightly hacked & pirated copy of IOS. Phones sold by companies like Motorola and Samsung will be the equivalent of a micro-sized PC made by HP, sold at Wal Mart, ships with Windows, and nobody has ever successfully gotten Linux to work on because it uses some wacky proprietary video chipset that's undocumented and lacks drivers for anything besides the specific version of Windows that PC shipped with from the factory. Companies like Dell and HTC will sell phones intended for Android, but capable of being coaxed into other OS'es with a bit of work (like running Linux on a Dell Laptop today), and most of US at XDA will have phones designed and marketed by medium-sized companies that focus on trying to outdo each other with arms-race hardware based on bleeding-edge chip and circuit designs that looked good in cad, in the analyzer, and maybe even in the prototype... but inevitably have some major problem that didn't become obvious until 250,000 were made, sold, and bought by users who assumed the flakiness was due to rushed beta drivers instead of some deeper design flaw or premature attempt at cost-cutting that went a bit too far.

SBP Mobile Shell 5.0

Lets not forget android has only been out a few f years and its in its infant stage still. I think future development will blow away the competition once its fully established. The monopoly windows has on pcs is why people still haven't realized the advances of linux yet at the same time we are starting to see that break with some major pc companies shipping systems with linux pre loaded.
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To a degree, yes... but pervasive Windows hegemony is also part of the reason Linux could get a foothold in PCs at all. By being largely compatible with hardware capable of running Windows, PCs capable of running Windows ended up being capable of running Linux by default.
Even now, the fact that it's *possible* to run desktop Linux (KDE, Gnome, etc) on non-x86 hardware doesn't mean that your life won't be *way* more complicated if you insist on trying. Even x86-64 users get a pretty good taste of the sting that comes from deviating from the de-facto hardware norm.
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will w8 do better than android??

i read somewhere that w8 has the potential of outselling android in the future.. what do you all think?

I think it is very probable that it will do better then android as google has not done very well at least compared to apple in the tablet area. wp8 is touch focused and is a very good OS and google and apple should be very worried.

leftspeaker2000 said:
wp8 is touch focused and is a very good OS and google and apple should be very worried.
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i think your on to something ere

All 3 companies are very good at stealing each others ideas so I doubt any of them will suffer much from Windows 8. Fundamentaly all 3 do the same job, so it comes down too personal preference, with that I should say Mac fans wont buy Windows 8 and nor will Android Fans or visa versa. Windows 8 simply allows Microsoft to play with the other boys in the Tablet field. I don't believe its the killer blow that will knock the others out of the ring.

I don't think it's going to do better than android, but it's going to gobble up a large portion of the market. WindowsPhone 8 is going to have support for MicroSD cards, native code and multi core processors, which all point to it being better than both iOS and Android. I'm honestly considering skipping the SGS3 and waiting for a Windows Phone "Apollo" phone instead.
WP7 is already the fastest OS of the three, and with support for even faster and better hardware, it's going to be just lightning quick.
Exciting times ahead!

m0nkf1sh said:
All 3 companies are very good at stealing each others ideas so I doubt any of them will suffer much from Windows 8. Fundamentaly all 3 do the same job, so it comes down too personal preference, with that I should say Mac fans wont buy Windows 8 and nor will Android Fans or visa versa. Windows 8 simply allows Microsoft to play with the other boys in the Tablet field. I don't believe its the killer blow that will knock the others out of the ring.
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I don't agree so much with this. I'm a Mac and I own an Android phone.
I guess it is down to appreciating the software engineering side of things.
I love how my Mac "just works", however do not appreciate the way iOS devices seem to only be designed for children who need the restrictions and wouldn't do much else than play games, read, learn, etc.
I also appreciate Android devices for the freedom and endless opportunities.
Windows 8... It is pretty cool, however, I'd rather not a tablet that is prone to PC viruses AND locked to only the one OS. Apple are also guilty with the whole "locked to one OS" philosophy.
Then again, the Linux kernel is my preference over the bloated one from Microsoft.

Leigh Kennedy said:
I don't agree so much with this. I'm a Mac and I own an Android phone.
I guess it is down to appreciating the software engineering side of things.
I love how my Mac "just works", however do not appreciate the way iOS devices seem to only be designed for children who need the restrictions and wouldn't do much else than play games, read, learn, etc.
I also appreciate Android devices for the freedom and endless opportunities.
Windows 8... It is pretty cool, however, I'd rather not a tablet that is prone to PC viruses AND locked to only the one OS. Apple are also guilty with the whole "locked to one OS" philosophy.
Then again, the Linux kernel is my preference over the bloated one from Microsoft.
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Click to collapse
It would be nice to stop insulting people who prefer efficiency more than complexity. It's getting old.

I think the Microsoft strategy is starting to show itself and I with with in 18 months there will be more METRO devices than Android and even IOS...
I expect Microsoft to virtually give Windows 8 away for Free or at least very cheaply. This is because of the huge potential to make money from the APP STORE so they don`t need to charge much for the OS itself.
Now Windows 7 sold 400 Million Licences as of July 2011 so by Windows 8 release in say Oct 2012 there could be 600 Million Windows 7 PC`s in use...
If only 50% upgrade to a Windows 8 within six months you could be talking about 300 Million customers for METRO APPS a year from now. That is even before any new PC`s or Tablets are sold.
This could even impact the smartphone sales numbers going forward as Windows Phone 8 is likely to be very similar to Windows 8 thus increasing it`s awareness and familiarity to the average person.
With a potential market of 300 Million + customers ...I expect METRO APPS to look better and be more feature rich than Android and IOS APPS, I think this will help drive the sales of Windows 8 tablet hardware.
A year from now Android will be finished in the tablet game and Apple will have big big competition!!

jerome snail said:
It would be nice to stop insulting people who prefer efficiency more than complexity. It's getting old.
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Click to collapse
Uh... Okay then.
Definitely nowhere near what I was intending to do.
Unless you were trying to troll.
I was only expressing my opinion. If you don't like it then ignore. The whole fanboy thing is getting old.

Future is full of uncertainty, no body had ever thought that Nokia vl have to compete with other companies for selling dr product, there was time when N series was consider as kind of huge status but now we have only two major OS iOS n Android outrunning symbian. So just wait n watch how win8 gets ported to phones n tablets.

Will Windows have something like Rosetta to support millions of existing programs on ARM? no.
I said programs, not apps because most people want Windows as they have a need to run Windows programs. That is why Linux and even Macs are limited in growth. And these programs are huge and hard to port due by developers due to libraries dependencies. Moreover, some of these program are specific for an industry/product and weren't updated for years, but people still need to use them. That is why Vista failed and people still use vulnerable XP, even when Windows 7 is out.
But do people need to have Windows to run apps? No. There is thousands of apps for Android and iPad. And I don't think that number of Metro apps will be greater than for Android at launch. So why anyone would want Windows on arm instead of iPad/Android?

Well android is still an os for mobilephones... It's not made for tablets. W8 will be good on a tablet so i think you are right..

borjeboy said:
Well android is still an os for mobilephones... It's not made for tablets. W8 will be good on a tablet so i think you are right..
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Android on a tablet works quite well though.
Yes, I do look forward to seeing how Windows 8 would work, however, the UEFI is what I don't agree with.
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The whole "locking the device to only one OS" is why I won't buy an iPad...
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Leigh Kennedy said:
Then again, the Linux kernel is my preference over the bloated one from Microsoft.
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Click to collapse
NT kernel is bloated

I think whoever gets the first mid-range tablet out at the right price point will win. This is total opinion, but my gut tells me the magic number for price is the $200-$300 dollar range for a mass market tablet. Saw glimpses of this during the HP Touchpad fire sale and the Kindle Fire before the user complaints of the device started coming in.
This needs to be a full featured tablet and not the ones that feel watered down that are currently offered at this price range. I think Android has the advantage but w8 could do well if they can offer something that is less clunky and can really nail the backward compatibility of x86 programs.

[Q] Few general questions - before I buy tablet now

Hi (sorry for length of the post!),
I am on the verge of getting new tablet.
I have good, old iPad 1 but unfortunately it is more toy than tool.
I have decided that device like Transformer (hybrid tablet/laptop) would be perfect for what I do. Till few days ago I was all set to wait for such a device with Win8 on-board... but now I am not so sure anymore.
Perhaps you will be able to help me make a good choice.
Currently during day I use at least two PC's with Win7 (and Windows Live services) + Google Chrome and iPad.
As much as I like iPad I hate that it can not sync (in full) like two PC's and especially Chrome (not to mention the lack of keyboard).
Because as I wrote I use Live services I was thinking that by the end of the year I should get a Windows Phone device (few of the things I need to know about WP are here, can you help? : http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1643996), Win8 for desktop and tablet with Win8 onboard.
From what I read Win8 will be much more "closed" when compared to prev. vers of Windows.
Questions are:
1. Will both x86 and ARM version force user to use only MS app store (no more free, unrestricted download from the internet like today? - can it really be true???)
2. Will Win8 have geo-restrictions like currently Windows Phone (got your Live ID assigned to USA -> than you can not get any software from App Store UK. Even iOS is less problematic here).
3. Flash support? Got myself nice VPN... at the moment Hulu works perfectly on Win7 and via Splashtop on my iPad. What about Windows 8?
4. As I wrote I use Google Chrome as a browser. It is quick, it syncs in a very good way, etc. I can not get it for iOS (one of the reasons to drop the iOS)... I can have it on Android tablet (although I am not sure about sync capabilities) but I was hoping I will be able to get the proper, full Chrome for my Win8 desktop and tablet.
5. VPN support on Windows8? Any? Will I be able to access Netflix (as I do now) ob both Win8 desktop and Win8 tablet.
6. Do you think tablet with Win8 will differ in a way system is open (I am not sure if I use correct words for that) between x86 and ARM ver? I do understand that if I will get ARM device all software I will get will have to be "wrote" specifically for ARM and opposite... (unless x86 will have no problem in emulating ARM as it will be more powerful platform).
7. In another words... is it worth to wait for Windows 8 on tablet or I will do most of the stuff I want on Android ICS device?
All insights are welcome!

Sry, didn't have the time to answer all of your questions but hopefully some parts will be clearer in some minutes ^^
1.) no, x86 will work just like a win7 pc nowadays. Not quite sure, but ARM will be restricted to the new marketplace/store (correct me if I'm wrong)
2.) Don't know for sure, but I think it will connect your Live Accout (in W8 called Microsoft Account) will have a connection to your location, but just for the store - not for downloaded applications.
3.) On x86 (tablets) I don't see any problems in using flash. ARM may not be having flash at release, but I think it'll come fast.
4.) If Google is willing to release Chrome for Windows 8 RT (the ARM version), you will be able to install it on all your W8 devices. But you could buy a x86 tablet and the desktop version of Chrome will run.
So, have to go...
Some last words: Tablets with x86 are just like a desktop pc for win7 with a touchscreen, a new look and feel and in one little case

galtom said:
1. Will both x86 and ARM version force user to use only MS app store (no more free, unrestricted download from the internet like today? - can it really be true???)
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Click to collapse
Metro apps are restricted, and the ARM version primarily only supports METRO apps. So an ARM version will force you unless you: Have a developer account, Are on a Domain, or Use an items signed by a trusted cert provider and make some registry settings.
x86 has the same restrictions on METRO apps, but can run any x86 item (all existing windows applications) without restriction.
galtom said:
2. Will Win8 have geo-restrictions like currently Windows Phone (got your Live ID assigned to USA -> than you can not get any software from App Store UK. Even iOS is less problematic here).
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Click to collapse
Likely yes. You would need to use a proxy to access other stores.
galtom said:
3. Flash support? Got myself nice VPN... at the moment Hulu works perfectly on Win7 and via Splashtop on my iPad. What about Windows 8?
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Click to collapse
x86 IE10 yes, I use Hulu on my 8 device right now. Metro IE10 will not support plugins (no flash, silverlight, or active x). You will need an 'app', or a site supporting HTML5 for IE10 to work.
galtom said:
4. As I wrote I use Google Chrome as a browser. It is quick, it syncs in a very good way, etc. I can not get it for iOS (one of the reasons to drop the iOS)... I can have it on Android tablet (although I am not sure about sync capabilities) but I was hoping I will be able to get the proper, full Chrome for my Win8 desktop and tablet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It works fine on an x86 tablet. It will be up to Google on whether or not they provide a Metro version. At this time there should be no restriction in place to prevent them from doing so if they desire to.
galtom said:
5. VPN support on Windows8? Any? Will I be able to access Netflix (as I do now) ob both Win8 desktop and Win8 tablet.
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Click to collapse
x86 yes. Metro requires an App. I use this today on Windows 8.
galtom said:
6. Do you think tablet with Win8 will differ in a way system is open (I am not sure if I use correct words for that) between x86 and ARM ver? I do understand that if I will get ARM device all software I will get will have to be "wrote" specifically for ARM and opposite... (unless x86 will have no problem in emulating ARM as it will be more powerful platform).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
x86 is completely open. ARM is restricted to things that install on ARM, and in most cases to things that are acquired through the METRO store (except for the exceptions listed in item 1
galtom said:
7. In another words... is it worth to wait for Windows 8 on tablet or I will do most of the stuff I want on Android ICS device?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you are going to buy a convertible windows 8 tablet, so it can be a laptop & a tablet, or if you are going to buy an x86 tablet, I would consider waiting for a windows 8 compatible device (expect sometime late summer / early fall.)
If you are going to buy a Win RT tablet, it is up to you, but I would probably buy a 200-300 android tablet, and then sell it and buy a windows one if/when it becomes a compelling device for you.

most of your questions have been answered, but im going to add a question (for you) an answer it
Should I buy a tablet now?
No, is the answer.
MS and its hardware partners have made some very interesting gains in the touch technology, not to mention Intels gains in performance / low watt CPUs.
if you buy now you will be missing out on some great tech especially around touch screens so it really would be a bit daft to buy just now, you also run the risk of it not supporting Win 8 completely as well. Seriously, wait it out until Win 8 comes, if you must get an older current gen device (perhaps price constrained?) then it will be cheaper then too

First of all thank you all for your time (and answers).
Since (as usual) answers to questions raise new questions... we... here we go
hanswurst24 said:
1.) no, x86 will work just like a win7 pc nowadays. Not quite sure, but ARM will be restricted to the new marketplace/store (correct me if I'm wrong)
2.) Don't know for sure, but I think it will connect your Live Accout (in W8 called Microsoft Account) will have a connection to your location, but just for the store - not for downloaded applications.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1. I am not so sure... and I think even for MS "all this" might be a problem.
On one hand they should not change "philosophy" of Windows because no one would swap Win7 to Win8 if they would have to buy all software form 1 (or few) stores only).
On the other hand Windows Phone is showing the way they want to/would like to go (which company would not want to make extra cash on apps the way Apple, Google and Amazon are doing??? - to find balance will not be easy).
All this shows (in my opinion) another problem - system fragmentation. Only iOS is safe as Apple has full control over system and devices (but THANK GOD - is not that stubborn on geo/market restrictions as Google or Ms).
If you remember how confusing for customers it was with Vista and Win7 versions imagine what will happen now?
To be honest (if those versions RT and x86) will differ so much in terms of practicability, options, openness, functions of hardware I cant imagine how everything will be introduced, market and advertised in order for "Mr Average Joe" to comprehend and not run back next day to the shop with complaints - about system, software, compatibility, etc...
Looks like a pure nightmare and I think this is the reason (they do not know what to do exactly with all this mess) we have so little information on how it all is going to work and c0-work with each other :-(
2). You see... as far as I know if I would buy Windows Phone (or RT Win8 tablet - by the end of the year) I will be limited to apps available only in my location. If Live ID is assigned to UK than forget (even free!) apps for US market (and others). In my case it is a disaster... For my pleasure and entertainment I use apps (on iOS and Android [if I can find them - it is way more difficult than on iOS] from UK, US and Poland.
Installing Netflix or BBC iPlayer on a dive form other parts of the world on iOS is very simple and does not require any hacking/rooting/jaibrakes/etc/.
On Android one has to know how to root the device and than simply search the net... not alwys finding what he/she wants.
On Windows Phone if you create new Live ID (like on iOS), switching those equals HARD RESET of the device.
If that will be the case with Win8 RT... that is a very bad news! Even if x86 ver will have less restrisctions those news will be bad for ARM manufacturers as they will get like "handicapped" system when compared to x86... - would you be happy about it if you were Nvidia or Qualcomm?
hanswurst24 said:
3.) On x86 (tablets) I don't see any problems in using flash. ARM may not be having flash at release, but I think it'll come fast.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Maybe it will, maybe it will not... question are:
- will it at all?
- how difficult it will be to install (root? bootloader? other restrictions? unauthorized software when compared to what your Live ID has bought from the shop?)
- how many AVERAGE people will want to go into all this mess?
michiganenginerd said:
Metro apps are restricted, and the ARM version primarily only supports METRO apps.
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Click to collapse
So... if there will DESKTOP mode on Win8 RT don't you think it will limit its general appeal. If it will be so restricted, without desktop mode... why would you want it over Android?
michiganenginerd said:
x86 has the same restrictions on METRO apps, but can run any x86 item (all existing windows applications) without restriction.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Again, if you are right... this move from MS would mean that hardly anyone will buy ARM version of the system -> ARM devices with Win8 will not sell. If that would be the case what would be the point for ARM ver of Win8 in first place if no sane manufacturer would invest money to produce devices that can not compete with x86 devices because of system they have. Unless they are very, VERY cheap (looking at cost of Android devices is not making me hopeful in this matter) or if people do not much care for the system but for batt. life - again why would you want Win8 over Android or (well established) iOS. It is worth to remember that it will be even more difficult to win customers who already own Android or iOS device - there is a good chance that they have spend quite a lot of cash so far on apps.
QUESTION (off topic): if you got iOS, purchased apps are assigned to account, not device -> meaning if you buy an app for iPad 1 you can still use it on iPad3. How dose it work on Windows Phone and Android devices?
michiganenginerd said:
Likely yes. You would need to use a proxy to access other stores.
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Click to collapse
Proxy/VPN is not a problem - problem is in Live ID that is assigned to a specific country during creation and registration. In this case your IP does not matter. It is the same with Google Play. Once you have your Google account you can connect to the store form any location but it will not allow you ti install software not in your market (even if you can see it).
michiganenginerd said:
x86 IE10 yes, I use Hulu on my 8 device right now. Metro IE10 will not support plugins (no flash, silverlight, or active x). You will need an 'app', or a site supporting HTML5 for IE10 to work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Again, if it will be so difficult with getting those apps it might influence sales and opinions outside of the US.
It looks to me that if only manufacturers of x86 devices will resolve problem with heating and active cooling (which imho have no please on tablet or hybrid laptop) it will be the only ver of Win8 that will make sense to buy.
Shame, as I would love to have "all this freedom" on an ARM device - I do not need computing power on mobile device but I also do not want to be limited in what I can install and from where/who.
michiganenginerd said:
It works fine on an x86 tablet. It will be up to Google on whether or not they provide a Metro version. At this time there should be no restriction in place to prevent them from doing so if they desire to.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What happens now 9on x86 Win8) if you try to add shortcut to Chrome on Metro UI? It dose not shows... or what?
If so, you mean you can lunch any software from desktop but not from metro screen? Does not make much sense... does it?
I understand that a "Metro app" will be easier to use and more touch friendly that current range of apps designed for mouse but still... it should be my choice. If I want to use it let me start it from any interface.
michiganenginerd said:
If you are going to buy a convertible windows 8 tablet, so it can be a laptop & a tablet, or if you are going to buy an x86 tablet, I would consider waiting for a windows 8 compatible device (expect sometime late summer / early fall.)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am considering buying now something like TF Prime or TF 300 - it might do what I need. And with some outside help (perhaps from here) beside usual stuff I should be able to get VPN client, Hulu +, Netflix and BBC on it. I am not worried about text editors as there should be quite few of those that will work with docx files and skydrive and hotmail.
And if Win8 will be a hit (I already bought Vista on a first day of sale - never again the same mistake! ) than I will consider getting it for my desktop and perhaps swapping a hybrid mobile device.
Does it make sense?
michiganenginerd said:
If you are going to buy a Win RT tablet, it is up to you, but I would probably buy a 200-300 android tablet, and then sell it and buy a windows one if/when it becomes a compelling device for you.
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Exactly what I wrote above .
dazza9075 said:
most of your questions have been answered, but im going to add a question (for you) an answer it
Should I buy a tablet now?
No, is the answer.
MS and its hardware partners have made some very interesting gains in the touch technology, not to mention Intels gains in performance / low watt CPUs.
if you buy now you will be missing out on some great tech especially around touch screens so it really would be a bit daft to buy just now, you also run the risk of it not supporting Win 8 completely as well. Seriously, wait it out until Win 8 comes, if you must get an older current gen device (perhaps price constrained?) then it will be cheaper then too
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well... I see your points, but...
It is still long wait for Win8, devices, decent reviews, all the hype and prices to settle and actual (physical) choice in the shop. I remember all the hype about competition to iPad 1 when it came out - it took almost a over year for devices to get to shops (remember CES and MWC in 2010 and 2011) - it is 2012 and not all devices are here.
How long it took Xoom to get to shops outside USA...?
Although Win8 (RT as well???) will go on sale after holidays... time for actual devices with the system (laptops, ultrabooks, netbooks, desktops, all in one PC's, tablets and hybrid tablets [have I missed anything?]) to get to the shop is a whole different story.
Meaning.... if it will take another (at least) 6-8 months to have an actual choice in the shops is it worth to wait and suffer in the mean time? But if I do get a TF300/Prime now - will I need a Win8 replacement for it?

sounds like you already made your mind up what you want to do and that Win 8 will not be as good as we think.
So perhaps save yourself to hassle and don't bother with it.
As for buying now that's up to you, but Win 8 wont be that long, hardware will be out soon and if you don't want that new hardware the older stuff will be a lot cheaper. 8 months after launch is way to far down the line, MS will be bending OEMs over backwards to get hardware out for launch.
You would be completely Bonkers buying now, we are about to get an RC of win 8, ARM will be getting developed in parallel, OEMs will have hardware taped out already to test the OS, which is something Apple doesn't have to worry too much about as they build the OS and hardware around one another where as Windows needs to support it all hence the longer development cycle and early gear in the wild
IF you get something now, there is no guarantee it will work or work well with Win RT or x86, so yes, potentially you will need to get new gear, and of course Win RT is OEM only meaning you can only get it with hardware soo.... you choice I guess.

As Dazza said it sounds like you have pretty much made up your mind. But in case there is still value in conversation.
galtom said:
Why not let ARM do what x86 does
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Exisiting applications written for windows cannot just run on a ARM device. They need to be modified to support and recompiled.
Existing applications written for desktops and laptops, even if they could run with no changes, would result in a poor experience.
You have two types of devices: Windows & Windows RT
You have two types of applications: Metro & Classic
RT devices are low power tablets running metro only.
Windows devices are likely to be ultrabooks, convertible laptops, and desktops running what they run today.
If you want a tablet, Win RT is a tablet with a full copy of office and a fun interface that will do what an iPad or an android tablet does, but is a device aimed at content consumption, not generation.
If you want a hybrid, you'll be be buying an x86 device, at least in the near future.
Not letting Diablo II & HALO run on Windows RT isn't just an arbitrary restriction. It won't run. It wasn't written, compiled, and tested on an ARM architecture.
galtom said:
Restrictions / curation:
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Click to collapse
OSX is adding sandboxing and store requirements over time. Expect in 10 years you have to buy apps from the Mac Store.
Microsoft is heading down the same path, at least for Metro applications. Expect in 10 years, consumers buy most apps from the Windows Store.
Is that a good thing? For some consumers probably. For a developer maybe. For an xda-reader not so much.
galtom said:
Flash Support
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Click to collapse
As for flash, it will be very unlikely to come to Windows RT.
Win RT browser will not support plugins.
Adobe has ended new development of Flash on ARM to focus on HTML5.
galtom said:
Why would I buy Win8 RT over android if it is restricted?
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Click to collapse
Why would you choose Android over an iPad?
You choose what is the most compelling to you.
Maybe you like METRO, want domain support, or full native MS Office.
galtom said:
It is still long wait for Win8 devices.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It isn't that long. Release Candidate is first week of June.
I am running it on an AMD E-350 acer tablet I bought for $300, and I use it over my Transformer.
I hold onto my transformer still to use with Citrix Reciever,
Otherwise I use a laptop, an E-350 hybrid, and an A100 as my devices today.
Expect end of summer that 5 point devices, using the new touch technology go on sale.
Expect late fall devices are sold for the holidays.
What you do is up to you as an individual about what is compelling.
For me I can't wait to buy device like the IdeaPad Yoga. I'll switch to using that and a 7" tablet.
If you are happy with Android, the Transformer is fine, I just find myself using the 7" or a full laptop. I rarely use the 10".
You sound fairly unhappy about Win 8's existance. I'm happy to have more choices.
For me, I will reduce my 4 devices to two, one of which I'm excited about. I won't be likely to buy an RT device, but I expect many will.
We aren't the average user that is being targeted by an RT Device. My parents use a 10" tablet for 90% of their internet. They get on a laptop or desktop for writing long emails, uploading photos & using office. If their tablet had widi to wirelessly throw the screen to a monitor, and could use office, they would probably never use their laptop.
Sales People & Relationship Managers that carry around iPads or Androids also can get a device that works with their corporate domain, and has full office on it. For many that would meet their needs.
But just because Windows RT doesn't meet the needs of an average xda user, doesn't mean it fails for the millions of people using netbooks & 5 year old laptops to browse the web, pay bills online, and occasionally use office.

michiganenginerd said:
As Dazza said it sounds like you have pretty much made up your mind. But in case there is still value in conversation.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, that is true but only to a point.
At the moment I think I will give ICS on Asus TF a try and byt the end of the year if x86 tablets with W8 will get good reviews I think I will jump the ship.
My concern (I had Asus 1201n with Atom 330 onboard and have Samsung NC10) is performance of current Atom chips - is it really better (forget about watching smooth YT video on NC10 - and it is not a problem on iPad!).
Heat! - cant have tablet with active cooling system.
Weight! - the likes of current fliptop netbook/tablets its just not nice (heavy and hot).
Battery life - 8h is a must (basically x86 W8 tablet [with a dock] has to be able to work (videos, internet, e-mail - nothing very heavy) to work 1 day
michiganenginerd said:
Originally Posted by galtom
Why not let ARM do what x86 does
Exisiting applications written for windows cannot just run on a ARM device. They need to be modified to support and recompiled.
Existing applications written for desktops and laptops, even if they could run with no changes, would result in a poor experience.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is not exactly what I have asked or at least not what I meant.
It is clear from me that x86 and ARM are two different platforms and I have never, ever expected old software to work on ARM devices.
But! If x86 can have both desktop and Metro why limit W-RT? If someone wants to create an ARM app that will support both modes, if users will want to use it...? Why not let us have the option to do so.
Second is the limitation of the sources of the software.
I can not imagine that W-RT will not get jailbroken as iOS is. But since iOS i way ahead of Windows and there is lots of Android devices on the market I can not see this as a PLUS point for W-RT, quite opposite.
W-RT (and devices with this system) will have to compete with:
- iOS: that is well marketed, well known, still cool, less restricted (no problem in swapping iTunes accounts), people already spend cash on software for their iPads, there is Office for iOS + lots of other business & entertainment software - why would current Apple customers ditch iPads?
Why would and iOS device owner said - OOO, another closed and restricted enviromet just looking different - I want it! - somehow I do not see that happening
- Android: envelope of openness that surrounds Android, no problem with root, community support, ROMS, apps from Google (or from wherever you want), probably a bit lower prices of devices, as iOS (in most cases) works with all Microsoft services + points as in iOS - folks have already spent cash on software, some devices are already in second or third generation
- Windows 8 x86 it has everything W-RT has + lots of more. Beats iOS and Android in terms of software availability, it is basically what you now have on desktop and laptop but with the proper support for touch (when you need it), if Intel&Friends will solve problems of weight/heat/battery life and price range will not be as for current line of Windows tablets it looks like a winner to me.
Having said (wrote) all that - why would Joe go to the shop and said:
"Gimme' that Asus with Windows RT" - instead of iOS, Android or Windows 8 device???
michiganenginerd said:
If you want a tablet, Win RT is a tablet with a full copy of office and a fun interface that will do what an iPad or an android tablet does, but is a device aimed at content consumption, not generation.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Office for RT and Office for x86 - two different things :-(
+ Office for iOS should be here any moment (I thought it is already out). As much as MS would love to ignore iOS and keep Office out of iPAD I do not think they can. how many millions devices is already out there? If only 25% of those people would want one of Office products... its quite a lot of cash...
+ to all points above - there is also a question of price of the software for all platforms and system itself.
What's more, considering how big profit Apple is making on iPad it seems as lots of room for price adjustment once Windows8 & RT devices are out.
michiganenginerd said:
If you want a hybrid, you'll be be buying an x86 device, at least in the near future.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Quite true, but since I miss this sort of functionality every day (and I doubt I am only one) why not go for TF300 or TF Prime now?
There is nothing wrong with those devices and when I look at ICS and what RT will bring to table I do not see any reasonable points that would convince me to wait (that was the reason I wrote here - to see I my line of thinking is correct. So far (unfortunately for W-RT) you have not wrote that I am wrong or that I have misunderstood something about Windows RT.
The only thing worth considering are devices with x86 Windows onboard but:
- its still few months (in the mean time I could give ICS a try?
- they are unknown in terms of battery/heat/weight and price!
Windows RT seems like a great idea that was f...up during creation. If Windows RT would be first on the market (before iPad with iOS and Android) - no problem. They could do all that and people would still get it... nowadays, whey MS is trying to chase others... I do not really see it happening with Windows 8 RT looking as it is.
It is pretty similar to situation with Windows Phone. It is not a bad system... but it is not better either. In some case is like or a bit worse than iOS in some it is like or a bit worse than Android - but it is not BETTER.
And just look how iPhone and Android phones are selling. look where is manufacturers focus.
Samsung/LG/Sony/HTC - how many Android models and how many WP models?
I got strange felling that W-RT will share the same fate. It will be there but not as any threat to iOS or Android, unlike x86 Windows 8 if Intel&Co will deliver.
michiganenginerd said:
OSX is adding sandboxing and store requirements over time. Expect in 10 years you have to buy apps from the Mac Store.
Microsoft is heading down the same path, at least for Metro applications. Expect in 10 years, consumers buy most apps from the Windows Store.[/qoute]
Yes, and there is nothing wrong with this... especially that (I hope) with x86 version we will always keep the choice where we want our software to get from.
Looking at the history (of thing in general) I can not remember 1 good exaple where introduction of more and additional restrictions actually worked well. It is against human nature.
If in 10-15 Windows will become completely shut... than Linux (or something else) might raise its head and actually win hearts of customers - like Apple did not so far ago!
michiganenginerd said:
Is that a good thing? For some consumers probably. For a developer maybe. For an xda-reader not so much.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Can not agree! It is bad for every one - even developers as they will be forced to accept any policy and conditions from Microsoft (similar to what it is right now with Apple ).
Limiting the choice is never good for anyone beside "The Man" in control.
michiganenginerd said:
As for flash, it will be very unlikely to come to Windows RT.
Win RT browser will not support plugins.
Adobe has ended new development of Flash on ARM to focus on HTML5.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And with recent news that RT will not support other browser but its own, best it is another point against this system.
It looks to me as MS is doing all it actually can to make it bad.
michiganenginerd said:
Why would you choose Android over an iPad?
You choose what is the most compelling to you.
Maybe you like METRO, want domain support, or full native MS Office.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
EXACTLY! If all above is true... who is going to get W-RT???
It will sell but only to people with no idea what they are buying, who dont really need it and who will not really use it (will not buy additional apps). Because if they do, if that will think before they buy... W-RT will be the last on the list (unless it will be the cheapest - which I doubt!)
michiganenginerd said:
It isn't that long. Release Candidate is first week of June.
I am running it on an AMD E-350 acer tablet I bought for $300, and I use it over my Transformer.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If only there would be an x86 ver of transformer with no fans to cool it down I would already be on it and this thread would not exist.
I just wanted to make sure that I am not missing something about Windows RT or situation in general.
I hold onto my transformer still to use with Citrix Reciever,
Otherwise I use a laptop, an E-350 hybrid, and an A100 as my devices today.
Expect end of summer that 5 point devices, using the new touch technology go on sale.
Expect late fall devices are sold for the holidays.
What you do is up to you as an individual about what is compelling.
For me I can't wait to buy device like the IdeaPad Yoga. I'll switch to using that and a 7" tablet.
If you are happy with Android, the Transformer is fine, I just find myself using the 7" or a full laptop. I rarely use the 10".
You sound fairly unhappy about Win 8's existance. I'm happy to have more choices.
For me, I will reduce my 4 devices to two, one of which I'm excited about. I won't be likely to buy an RT device, but I expect many will.
We aren't the average user that is being targeted by an RT Device. My parents use a 10" tablet for 90% of their internet. They get on a laptop or desktop for writing long emails, uploading photos & using office. If their tablet had widi to wirelessly throw the screen to a monitor, and could use office, they would probably never use their laptop.
Sales People & Relationship Managers that carry around iPads or Androids also can get a device that works with their corporate domain, and has full office on it. For many that would meet their needs.
But just because Windows RT doesn't meet the needs of an average xda user, doesn't mean it fails for the millions of people using netbooks & 5 year old laptops to browse the web, pay bills online, and occasionally use office.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

Short version:
W-RT is not for targeted at You, I, or many xda-readers. That doesn't mean it doesn't have a place or that the option existing is bad.
galtom said:
Heat, Weight, Battery Life!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Intel is getting closer, but you just can't pull off an iPad size / weight device with 8h+ battery life on x86. The tech isn't there yet.
galtom said:
If x86 can have both desktop and Metro why limit W-RT?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
W-RT is OEM only. It is meant to be an 'appliance' not a PC.
Whether you agree with the approach or not, the justifications for limiting are somewhat explained here:
Microsoft's Windows chief Steven Sinofsky:
If we enabled the broad porting of existing code we would fail to deliver on our commitment to longer battery life, predictable performance, and especially a reliable experience over time. The conventions used by today's Windows apps do not necessarily provide this, whether it is background processes, polling loops, timers, system hooks, startup programs, registry changes, kernel mode code, admin rights, unsigned drivers, add-ins, or a host of other common techniques.
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/...ndows-for-the-arm-processor-architecture.aspx
galtom said:
I can not imagine that W-RT will not get jailbroken as iOS is.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Less immediate need to jailbreak it. There are supported methods of sideloading, but I am sure there will be other people who extend it beyond that.
galtom said:
why would Joe go to the shop and said:
"Gimme' that Asus with Windows RT" - instead of iOS, Android or Windows 8 device???
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Joe may work for a BYOD company, or Joe is buying for his company.
Joe may be my Father, who would like a tablet device he could do email, netflix, hulu, office, and wireless screencasting.
Some Joe's this will work for, other's it won't. We have to recognize, just because we aren't the target market doesn't mean their isn't one.
Many Joe's will buy an iPad or an Android, some will buy W-RT, some will buy none of the above.
A device that is 300-500 dollars, that comes with a free copy of office, and integrates well with a enterprise, has a market.
galtom said:
Office for RT and Office for x86 - two different things
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Excel, OneNote, PowerPoint and Word are expected to support all of the same Office 15 x86 features.
galtom said:
Windows Phone. It is not a bad system... but it is not better either.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agreed, except in the base security model, and as a feature phone replacement. The phone is massively ahead in terms of sandboxing and enforcing secure practices. It would also be a better phone in terms of ease of use and simplicity for a subset of users. Would I replace my Android with it? no. But that doesn't mean it doesn't do some things well, and that their are users who would find the experience simpler than iPhone or Android when buying their first smartphone.
galtom said:
It will be there but not as any threat to iOS or Android, unlike x86 Windows 8 if Intel&Co will deliver.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Does something have to be an 'iPad Killer' for there to be a place for it? Why is choice a bad thing?
galtom said:
Restrictions .... bad for every one
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
For some consumers the security and curation makes their experience better, for some the restrictions outweigh any benefit.
For some developers the market will be better than one not existing, for some the restrictions outweigh any benefit.
For most people on this board the restrictions outweigh the upside.
As a developer, while I hate the restrictions Apple and MS impose, I also now have a market to sell to that did not exist 10 years ago.
I will continue to be a proponent of more open options, and an end to restrictions put in place to support a business model rather than architecture or security, but that doesnt' mean that the app store's existance is a net negative on my life.
galtom said:
RT will not support other browser but its own
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not true. RT will not support other browsers in 'Classic / Desktop' mode.
I think MS should work with major vendors to allow them to deliver 'classic' mode applications on ARM, but this isn't a ban on other browsers, it's a ban on all software that does not run in the sandbox.
galtom said:
It will sell but only to people with no idea what they are buying
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I share concern in this area. I believe that most people who bought netbooks did not get what they expected.
I do think there is a place for these devices for a larger group of users than netbooks had a place for.
But I do think they need to make sure it is sold / marketed in a way that makes it clear what it is, and what it is not.
I will probably get my Father one for Christmas. I probably will not get one of my own. Different users have different needs, hopefully the marketing, sales, and staffs at stores do a better job of directing them.

[Q] Put windows 8 on ipad for free

Hello guys! I have an iPad 2 (I dont know if apple talk is even allowed here) but what I want to do is to install Windows 8 on non-jailbroken iPad 2 with iOS 5.0.1 for free. Spashtops paid offer is unfair since Windows slate users can get it for free. So where do I get win8 for free?

install win8 on ipad2? you're kidding, right?

OptimusLove said:
Hello guys! I have an iPad 2 (I dont know if apple talk is even allowed here) but what I want to do is to install Windows 8 on non-jailbroken iPad 2 with iOS 5.0.1 for free. Spashtops paid offer is unfair since Windows slate users can get it for free. So where do I get win8 for free?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just a quick question, what is it you are wanting to do?
im not sure if you quite understand what is going on with Splashtop , your not installing Windows 8, your using a remote VM that's streamed to your ipad.
besides that, Win 8 ARM isn't available to us, its not a retail product, we have no idea how hard it is going to be to rip out the OS and install it on other devices, or indeed if its possible at all
What you could try, and I don't have an ipad so I cant be sure it would work, is use a web service such as logmein,
setup a win 8 desktop somewhere, then install logmein, if your ipad will allow it log on to the logmein service and connect to your Win 8 desktop, technically you now have a crude version of Splashtops product

OptimusLove said:
Hello guys! I have an iPad 2 (I dont know if apple talk is even allowed here) but what I want to do is to install Windows 8 on non-jailbroken iPad 2 with iOS 5.0.1 for free. Spashtops paid offer is unfair since Windows slate users can get it for free. So where do I get win8 for free?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First of all, Apple doesn't even let you transfer any sort of files except media on their devices. Secondly, if you could manage to get something on there using SSH or something, you can't execute it at bootup. This proves yet a impossible thing to install Windows 8 on iPad but who knows? Someone can prove me wrong and put Win 8 on iPad. That would be awesome as I also own a iPad (1st-Gen).

??? how will that work ???
How will that work? I mean Apple and Windows on a machine?

This will never be possible =[

Taimur Akmal said:
First of all, Apple doesn't even let you transfer any sort of files except media on their devices. Secondly, if you could manage to get something on there using SSH or something, you can't execute it at bootup. This proves yet a impossible thing to install Windows 8 on iPad but who knows? Someone can prove me wrong and put Win 8 on iPad. That would be awesome as I also own a iPad (1st-Gen).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not to mention that iBoot is very particular about what it downloads during recovery.
Cogixo: it's possible with both Mac and Windows PCs, Bootcamp and Hackintoshing (respectively). But on Apple's ARM based tablet? Probably not (in fact, definitely not going to be too possible)
Sent from my LS-LS670 using XDA

Kabayan, it is possible but the hardware is not compatible, you have been seeing windows 8 running on iPad but it was a remote session, using ipad to control another PC running windows 8. AFAIK, there was no single project being produced installing windows 8 in iPad. Splashtop's tool is being used to connect an iPad to a Windows 8 PC, making an illusion of running windows 8 on ipad.
there are windows 8-based tablets in the market now(samsung, ehem) amd windows 7-based tablets can also accommodate windows 8.
if you have enough funds, you can commission few programmers to make a hacked wiindows 8 pc(arm version is better) to make the sources of it compatible to iPad.

junpeikawada said:
Kabayan, it is possible but the hardware is not compatible, you have been seeing windows 8 running on iPad but it was a remote session, using ipad to control another PC running windows 8. AFAIK, there was no single project being produced installing windows 8 in iPad. Splashtop's tool is being used to connect an iPad to a Windows 8 PC, making an illusion of running windows 8 on ipad.
there are windows 8-based tablets in the market now(samsung, ehem) amd windows 7-based tablets can also accommodate windows 8.
if you have enough funds, you can commission few programmers to make a hacked wiindows 8 pc(arm version is better) to make the sources of it compatible to iPad.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I had to explain the same thing to my friend who switched from iOS to Android and asked me why he couldn't use Java when "cloud browse for iOS could". Had to explain to him that all he was seeing was a Linux system shunting the images from the java site to his iPod.
Sent from my LS-LS670 using XDA

:laugh: this is kind of joke.... :laugh:

hA....... Jobs is rolling over in his grave. Do some people think first? I'm gonna have to use this one at work.....
Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express

bzmotoninja83 said:
hA....... Jobs is rolling over in his grave. Do some people think first? I'm gonna have to use this one at work.....
Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I like the idea of Steve jobs perpetually rolling around and around and around in his grave
Sent from my HTC One S using xda premium

androidcues said:
I like the idea of Steve jobs perpetually rolling around and around and around in his grave
Sent from my HTC One S using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
LOOOOOOOL!!!!!!!

If this is possable, I will go to the store and buy a iPad just for this use....
As I am not interested in it for iOS (sorry fanboys)

Put DOS on your macbook. U can really do it for free)

cogixo said:
How will that work? I mean Apple and Windows on a machine?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The thing is,questions like this show why the Surface is going to be a trainwreck. Windows on Apple hardware was done. First by some guy with quite a bit of talent and skill,then by apple themselves. The thing is,most endusers are so clueless they dont realize why this was possible OR why it was difficult.
It was possible of course becuase the newer apple hardware really IS PC hardware with a slightly different EFI firmware. Therefore running windows on it is possible.
The thing is,there are TWO versions of the Surface,and TWO version of windows 8,which are both completely different. One version of the surface is an ARM based tablet,and it runs a special ARM windows. It needs to run special ARM windows software and cant run normal apps. They call it Windows 8 RT. (presumably for RISC Tablet or RISC Technology)
Then there is the Pro version. It runs "real" windows 8,and can run normal windows programs. Its like a PC in a tablet form factor and will use an Intel Atom CPU. It also costs almost twice as much.
This will confuse people. They will go buy the RT tablet,thinking they can run all the WIndows software and be very angry and dissapointed when they find out the expensive tablet they bought is "useless". Microsofts promises of vast amounts of Metro enabled vaporware wont cut it.
Many of those people will probably STILL not understand. They will think that "Windows 8 wont run your old WIndows programs" and not only wont buy Windows 8 for their PC,they wont even buy a new PC becuase they will think that Windows 8 does not run their software. They saw it with their own eyes,and the guy at windows tech support told them that,or at least thats what they THINK they were told,the guy was hard to understand. Those people will be very angry at Microsoft. Macs will get a nice shot in the arm from this,after all,if you have to buy all new software,then Microsofts lost its barrier to people switching. Perception IS reality in this case.
In the end,this wont kill MS or anything,but they will have to spend a fortune to undo the damage. They will have to run commericals to explain the difference. The RT tablets will dissapear not long after they are released. MS will try to salvage the Windows 8 Pro tablet line. That will anger the people that shelled out 600 dollars for a new tablet and te OEMs that are dumb enough to jump on the bandwagon. (Apperantly HP is one such company thats dumb enough)
Thats not getting into the UI. Windows 8 probably works as well as anything else on a tablet,but it sucks on a desktop.
I expect to see the Metro UI dialed back or eliminated in the Windows 9,which should basically be a rebadged version of 8 with Metro turned off and a normal windows desktop. It will probably drop around early to mid 2014. Service pack one will probably make Metro default to off as well,at least for newly installed machines.
The worst thing will be the confusion. There are too many things they are coming out with called "windows 8". My mother cant even figure out how to create a new document and has to call me every time she does it. How is she going to keep "Windows 8 RT on a Surface","Windows 8 on a Surface pro","Windows 8 Home","windows 8 professional","Windows 8 Ultimate" and "Windows 8 Phone" strait. Which one runs what software again? thats the thing,it used to be,if it ran windows,it ran windows software. People understood that. They also came to understand that really old versions of software that ran on older versions of windows might not run on newer computers with their newer versions of windows. (Although they didnt understand why). This is going to be too much for end users to keep track of.
Now for the real question. Is it theoretically possible to put Windows 8 RT,the ARM version on a I-Pad. The answer is,yes,but it wont happen. Apple does not use standard chips like ,say the HP Touchpad. The chipset is different. The drivers wont exist for a i-Pad and its not a trivial thing to write them. Now,tablets like the Touchpad might someday have a custom Windows 8 RT rom for them. Thats becuase they use a qualcom chipset used in dozens of other devices. As such,its quite likely that drivers for the hardware will exist for Windows 8 RT for those tablets. This is how they were able to port Android to the Touchpad. Even that is a huge undertaking. Its almost a year later and its working quite well but its still not finished and many things (like the camera) do not work right.
---------- Post added at 04:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:41 AM ----------
DavidinCT said:
If this is possable, I will go to the store and buy a iPad just for this use....
As I am not interested in it for iOS (sorry fanboys)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Im not a fanboi but I question why you would want Windows 8 RT. Its going to be a disaster. You might as well run webOS. There are two tablets operating systems right now that are successful and then there are the also-rans. The ones no one in their right mind will pay 500 dollars for.
Theres Android,and theres iOS. Thats it. In fact,many android users would rather have a iPad but its too expensive. Thats both good and bad for android. If you look at it one way,maybe 1/3 of Android users are people who would rather have the competitions product but could not afford it. On the other hand,perhaps 1/3 of Android users were potential Apple customers who were swayed by the lower price and better value of Android tablets. Windows RT however is just like WebOS. Its something thats not an iPad,costs as MUCH as an iPad and is not as GOOD as an iPad.
You can beat apple by being as good as an iPad and being far cheaper. You can beat apple by costing as much as an iPad and being far better. However,you cant beat apple by being as good as an iPad and costing as much as one,becuase at the end of the day,Apple has one thing going for it,its product IS an iPad. Thats the one most people want. Microsoft is trying to beat Apple by selling a product that costs as much or more than an iPad,and is not as good as one. (HP tried it too) Now before the fanbois start flaming me,let me say,I dont think Windows 8 RT or WebOS worked nearly as well as Android or iOS,but lets just say they are actually a little better. Thats the thing,they are a little better,but not a lot better,on their own. But then there are apps. The tablet is worthless without apps. WebOS has hardly any. Windows 8 hardly has any. Therefore the iPad and Android are better.
A little better with the promise of some vaporware in the future wont do it. You need apps,and you need them NOW,or you at least have to convince people that you have a winner. You can do it if your just WAY better. But if your just a little better,or the same,or even worse,then no one will make apps,so no one will buy it,so no one will make apps (becuase theres no one to buy them)
Android can compete with iOS becuase for some people,Android is better. Its more open. For others,the closed nature of the iPad is "better". Windows 8RT however has all the disadvantages of iOS with none of the benefits.

pflatlyne said:
The thing is,questions like this show why the Surface is going to be a trainwreck. Windows on Apple hardware was done. First by some guy with quite a bit of talent and skill,then by apple themselves. The thing is,most endusers are so clueless they dont realize why this was possible OR why it was difficult.
It was possible of course becuase the newer apple hardware really IS PC hardware with a slightly different EFI firmware. Therefore running windows on it is possible.
The thing is,there are TWO versions of the Surface,and TWO version of windows 8,which are both completely different. One version of the surface is an ARM based tablet,and it runs a special ARM windows. It needs to run special ARM windows software and cant run normal apps. They call it Windows 8 RT. (presumably for RISC Tablet or RISC Technology)
Then there is the Pro version. It runs "real" windows 8,and can run normal windows programs. Its like a PC in a tablet form factor and will use an Intel Atom CPU. It also costs almost twice as much.
This will confuse people. They will go buy the RT tablet,thinking they can run all the WIndows software and be very angry and dissapointed when they find out the expensive tablet they bought is "useless". Microsofts promises of vast amounts of Metro enabled vaporware wont cut it.
Many of those people will probably STILL not understand. They will think that "Windows 8 wont run your old WIndows programs" and not only wont buy Windows 8 for their PC,they wont even buy a new PC becuase they will think that Windows 8 does not run their software. They saw it with their own eyes,and the guy at windows tech support told them that,or at least thats what they THINK they were told,the guy was hard to understand. Those people will be very angry at Microsoft. Macs will get a nice shot in the arm from this,after all,if you have to buy all new software,then Microsofts lost its barrier to people switching. Perception IS reality in this case.
In the end,this wont kill MS or anything,but they will have to spend a fortune to undo the damage. They will have to run commericals to explain the difference. The RT tablets will dissapear not long after they are released. MS will try to salvage the Windows 8 Pro tablet line. That will anger the people that shelled out 600 dollars for a new tablet and te OEMs that are dumb enough to jump on the bandwagon. (Apperantly HP is one such company thats dumb enough)
Thats not getting into the UI. Windows 8 probably works as well as anything else on a tablet,but it sucks on a desktop.
I expect to see the Metro UI dialed back or eliminated in the Windows 9,which should basically be a rebadged version of 8 with Metro turned off and a normal windows desktop. It will probably drop around early to mid 2014. Service pack one will probably make Metro default to off as well,at least for newly installed machines.
The worst thing will be the confusion. There are too many things they are coming out with called "windows 8". My mother cant even figure out how to create a new document and has to call me every time she does it. How is she going to keep "Windows 8 RT on a Surface","Windows 8 on a Surface pro","Windows 8 Home","windows 8 professional","Windows 8 Ultimate" and "Windows 8 Phone" strait. Which one runs what software again? thats the thing,it used to be,if it ran windows,it ran windows software. People understood that. They also came to understand that really old versions of software that ran on older versions of windows might not run on newer computers with their newer versions of windows. (Although they didnt understand why). This is going to be too much for end users to keep track of.
Now for the real question. Is it theoretically possible to put Windows 8 RT,the ARM version on a I-Pad. The answer is,yes,but it wont happen. Apple does not use standard chips like ,say the HP Touchpad. The chipset is different. The drivers wont exist for a i-Pad and its not a trivial thing to write them. Now,tablets like the Touchpad might someday have a custom Windows 8 RT rom for them. Thats becuase they use a qualcom chipset used in dozens of other devices. As such,its quite likely that drivers for the hardware will exist for Windows 8 RT for those tablets. This is how they were able to port Android to the Touchpad. Even that is a huge undertaking. Its almost a year later and its working quite well but its still not finished and many things (like the camera) do not work right.
---------- Post added at 04:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:41 AM ----------
Im not a fanboi but I question why you would want Windows 8 RT. Its going to be a disaster. You might as well run webOS. There are two tablets operating systems right now that are successful and then there are the also-rans. The ones no one in their right mind will pay 500 dollars for.
Theres Android,and theres iOS. Thats it. In fact,many android users would rather have a iPad but its too expensive. Thats both good and bad for android. If you look at it one way,maybe 1/3 of Android users are people who would rather have the competitions product but could not afford it. On the other hand,perhaps 1/3 of Android users were potential Apple customers who were swayed by the lower price and better value of Android tablets. Windows RT however is just like WebOS. Its something thats not an iPad,costs as MUCH as an iPad and is not as GOOD as an iPad.
You can beat apple by being as good as an iPad and being far cheaper. You can beat apple by costing as much as an iPad and being far better. However,you cant beat apple by being as good as an iPad and costing as much as one,becuase at the end of the day,Apple has one thing going for it,its product IS an iPad. Thats the one most people want. Microsoft is trying to beat Apple by selling a product that costs as much or more than an iPad,and is not as good as one. (HP tried it too) Now before the fanbois start flaming me,let me say,I dont think Windows 8 RT or WebOS worked nearly as well as Android or iOS,but lets just say they are actually a little better. Thats the thing,they are a little better,but not a lot better,on their own. But then there are apps. The tablet is worthless without apps. WebOS has hardly any. Windows 8 hardly has any. Therefore the iPad and Android are better.
A little better with the promise of some vaporware in the future wont do it. You need apps,and you need them NOW,or you at least have to convince people that you have a winner. You can do it if your just WAY better. But if your just a little better,or the same,or even worse,then no one will make apps,so no one will buy it,so no one will make apps (becuase theres no one to buy them)
Android can compete with iOS becuase for some people,Android is better. Its more open. For others,the closed nature of the iPad is "better". Windows 8RT however has all the disadvantages of iOS with none of the benefits.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
While there is quite a lot of misinformation in your post, as I don't have a laptop at the minute, I'll only point out a few.
One, your using "vaporware" to describe metro apps on a system currently in active development. This is like you releasing a program currently in development and people calling it vaporware during it's beta release because there's no plugins "yet". Metro applications do exist and are growing in number.
Two, Microsoft has stated many times that RT would not run standard windows applications and I'm sure that will be in the advertising for the surface RT as well. Metro has enough apps for your causal tablet user. If casual joe wants standard windows applications, he'll buy a Surface Pro.
Three, Microsoft stated that Windows 8 was not going to have so many editions in this release. Not to mention that Windows 8 on a Surface Pro and RT (and probably WP8) will run the same Metro applications. Windows 8 on a surface pro will run the same applications as the normal computer.
Four, Microsoft is probably not going to scrap Metro. They've got enough of a user base on Windows 8 (since Developers Preview) to have enough information about metro. IMHO, if there was to be any inclination to scrap metro, we would've seen it in Release Preview with an on/off switch. Besides, they've put so much work into the interface and making that interface unified across their services and software.
As I said, I would write more if it weren't for the fact that I'm currently in the process of a move and my laptop's charger died on me.
No offense is meant by my post here, just thought I'd clear up some confusion that you seem to have.
Sent from my LG-LS670 using XDA

pflatlyne said:
The thing is,questions like this show why the Surface is going to be a trainwreck. Windows on Apple hardware was done. First by some guy with quite a bit of talent and skill,then by apple themselves. The thing is,most endusers are so clueless they dont realize why this was possible OR why it was difficult.
It was possible of course becuase the newer apple hardware really IS PC hardware with a slightly different EFI firmware. Therefore running windows on it is possible.
The thing is,there are TWO versions of the Surface,and TWO version of windows 8,which are both completely different. One version of the surface is an ARM based tablet,and it runs a special ARM windows. It needs to run special ARM windows software and cant run normal apps. They call it Windows 8 RT. (presumably for RISC Tablet or RISC Technology)
Then there is the Pro version. It runs "real" windows 8,and can run normal windows programs. Its like a PC in a tablet form factor and will use an Intel Atom CPU. It also costs almost twice as much.
This will confuse people. They will go buy the RT tablet,thinking they can run all the WIndows software and be very angry and dissapointed when they find out the expensive tablet they bought is "useless". Microsofts promises of vast amounts of Metro enabled vaporware wont cut it.
Many of those people will probably STILL not understand. They will think that "Windows 8 wont run your old WIndows programs" and not only wont buy Windows 8 for their PC,they wont even buy a new PC becuase they will think that Windows 8 does not run their software. They saw it with their own eyes,and the guy at windows tech support told them that,or at least thats what they THINK they were told,the guy was hard to understand. Those people will be very angry at Microsoft. Macs will get a nice shot in the arm from this,after all,if you have to buy all new software,then Microsofts lost its barrier to people switching. Perception IS reality in this case.
In the end,this wont kill MS or anything,but they will have to spend a fortune to undo the damage. They will have to run commericals to explain the difference. The RT tablets will dissapear not long after they are released. MS will try to salvage the Windows 8 Pro tablet line. That will anger the people that shelled out 600 dollars for a new tablet and te OEMs that are dumb enough to jump on the bandwagon. (Apperantly HP is one such company thats dumb enough)
Thats not getting into the UI. Windows 8 probably works as well as anything else on a tablet,but it sucks on a desktop.
I expect to see the Metro UI dialed back or eliminated in the Windows 9,which should basically be a rebadged version of 8 with Metro turned off and a normal windows desktop. It will probably drop around early to mid 2014. Service pack one will probably make Metro default to off as well,at least for newly installed machines.
The worst thing will be the confusion. There are too many things they are coming out with called "windows 8". My mother cant even figure out how to create a new document and has to call me every time she does it. How is she going to keep "Windows 8 RT on a Surface","Windows 8 on a Surface pro","Windows 8 Home","windows 8 professional","Windows 8 Ultimate" and "Windows 8 Phone" strait. Which one runs what software again? thats the thing,it used to be,if it ran windows,it ran windows software. People understood that. They also came to understand that really old versions of software that ran on older versions of windows might not run on newer computers with their newer versions of windows. (Although they didnt understand why). This is going to be too much for end users to keep track of.
Now for the real question. Is it theoretically possible to put Windows 8 RT,the ARM version on a I-Pad. The answer is,yes,but it wont happen. Apple does not use standard chips like ,say the HP Touchpad. The chipset is different. The drivers wont exist for a i-Pad and its not a trivial thing to write them. Now,tablets like the Touchpad might someday have a custom Windows 8 RT rom for them. Thats becuase they use a qualcom chipset used in dozens of other devices. As such,its quite likely that drivers for the hardware will exist for Windows 8 RT for those tablets. This is how they were able to port Android to the Touchpad. Even that is a huge undertaking. Its almost a year later and its working quite well but its still not finished and many things (like the camera) do not work right.
---------- Post added at 04:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:41 AM ----------
Im not a fanboi but I question why you would want Windows 8 RT. Its going to be a disaster. You might as well run webOS. There are two tablets operating systems right now that are successful and then there are the also-rans. The ones no one in their right mind will pay 500 dollars for.
Theres Android,and theres iOS. Thats it. In fact,many android users would rather have a iPad but its too expensive. Thats both good and bad for android. If you look at it one way,maybe 1/3 of Android users are people who would rather have the competitions product but could not afford it. On the other hand,perhaps 1/3 of Android users were potential Apple customers who were swayed by the lower price and better value of Android tablets. Windows RT however is just like WebOS. Its something thats not an iPad,costs as MUCH as an iPad and is not as GOOD as an iPad.
You can beat apple by being as good as an iPad and being far cheaper. You can beat apple by costing as much as an iPad and being far better. However,you cant beat apple by being as good as an iPad and costing as much as one,becuase at the end of the day,Apple has one thing going for it,its product IS an iPad. Thats the one most people want. Microsoft is trying to beat Apple by selling a product that costs as much or more than an iPad,and is not as good as one. (HP tried it too) Now before the fanbois start flaming me,let me say,I dont think Windows 8 RT or WebOS worked nearly as well as Android or iOS,but lets just say they are actually a little better. Thats the thing,they are a little better,but not a lot better,on their own. But then there are apps. The tablet is worthless without apps. WebOS has hardly any. Windows 8 hardly has any. Therefore the iPad and Android are better.
A little better with the promise of some vaporware in the future wont do it. You need apps,and you need them NOW,or you at least have to convince people that you have a winner. You can do it if your just WAY better. But if your just a little better,or the same,or even worse,then no one will make apps,so no one will buy it,so no one will make apps (becuase theres no one to buy them)
Android can compete with iOS becuase for some people,Android is better. Its more open. For others,the closed nature of the iPad is "better". Windows 8RT however has all the disadvantages of iOS with none of the benefits.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i disagree with you completely, just cause something has changed doesnt mean it is bad, metro is an amazing UI for both touch and keyboard and mouse, sure it takes some getting use to but it will always be like that and i dont think you have even tried windows 8, the windows store already has a bunch of metro apps and the os isnt even released as a final product yet. as for windows rt, i feel that will succeed because it is enough for average joe blow to browse the web and play some small games, and even if you need to run pc programs, im 100% sure there will be emulation for x86/x64 programs whether its native or its from a third party company like vmware.
tbh you are being a fanboy so please dont lie to yourself by saying you're not, you're comparing an unreleased os to a failed os because webos doesnt have any apps and windows 8 doesnt have many in its current state and on top of that, you're defending current tablet os's at every chance you get just because they have more apps
heck the reason you NEED an app to do something on ios and android is because you cant do much with the built in apps, have you tried using facebook's desktop site on your android tablet, the experience is terrible, nothing clicks right, you cant hover over drop menus, ect. while on IE10 everything works the way it should, it doesnt freezee or try to click something behind a drop menu, everything just works
and yes i am being a fanboy, windows 8 is the future for mobile computing, especially when there are going to be so many hybrid laptop tablets coming out in the near future, windows 8 would have done what the ipad and android tabs have failed to do, kill the laptop

I agree with you completely pflatlyne, though as previously stated there are many inaccuracies in your post.
One thing I want to point out that hasn't been already corrected: the SurfacePro will run an x64 inter i-Core series CPU, not an Atom

mtmerrick said:
I agree with you completely pflatlyne, though as previously stated there are many inaccuracies in your post.
One thing I want to point out that hasn't been already corrected: the SurfacePro will run an x64 inter i-Core series CPU, not an Atom
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
but it could do, future Atoms will be developed and improved uppon, there is no technically reason Win8 Pro wont run on an Atom or an i7!
infact id put money it there being mid level devices released some time after the initial release to fill the void between ARM and i5 although in saying that there is apparently only 10w difference between the two so perhaps new i3s will become the new Atom ultra low watt SKUs

[Q] How exactly is Windows free??

Hi guys,
I just read that they announced in the dev conference that windows will be free for 9" and less..
I am not able to confirm if this is for WP or x86 full blown Windows.?
If it includes Full Windows, where do the 8" tablets like dell venue 8 pro stand?
Also I keep hearing it as widows with bing or internet of things.. isn't this basically an arm version or WP again?? or is it a re-branded RT version?
Whats the point of it??
Or are they basically trying to say WP is free for manufacturers while full Windows is still chargeable??

Phones <9", no? In any case, phones were explicitly mentioned as free. Even before now, it was leaked that a couple of regional carriers in India got WP for free, which means the multinational vendors obviously had the same (or better) deal.
And even before that, it was blatantly obvious that with Nokia's monopoly of the WP market, which is now part of MS, no vendor would bother playing unless the entry cost was zero (or better). Note that WP has now abolished physical spec requirements, allowing vendors to repurpose their Android models for WP with minimal effort.
BTW, "full" Windows is a moving target, so don't take it as gospel. From the grapevine, future Win will bifurcate into two base SKUs, one with desktop and one without (nee Windows RT). Reportedly these will be platform-agnostic, ie x86 will also sport a sans-desktop version, and what was previously RT will simply be the ARM port but without the branding. "Free" Win can conceivably be only for the sans-desktop version, ie for consumption-only devices, while productivity devices (10"+) will still sport the MS tax.
But that's in the future (read: Win9). Yes, for this year, free Win will mean the "full" x86 Win that is being shoehorned into mini-tabs. This isn't out of generosity, but because it's all MS has at the moment to push mobiles with.
All this is subject to change. How much of Win will be free will likely depend on adoption rate of 8.x this year. If it continues to crater, then MS can step up the freebies to offset. If adoption picks up, MS can tighten the gift bag.
The point? Selling Windows on mobiles, what else? MS first effort, in pushing premium hardware like Surface and expensive 2n1's, has flopped like a fish. The second try is predicated on low price, starting with the ill-fated $300 8" tabs. That didn't fly either, so now comes the last-ditch effort of "free."
We'll see how well OEMs bite. New product intros coming in late summer & fall should be good indicators. HP's response in particular will be noteworthy.

e.mote said:
Phones <9", no? In any case, phones were explicitly mentioned as free. Even before now, it was leaked that a couple of regional carriers in India got WP for free, which means the multinational vendors obviously had the same (or better) deal.
And even before that, it was blatantly obvious that with Nokia's monopoly of the WP market, which is now part of MS, no vendor would bother playing unless the entry cost was zero (or better). Note that WP has now abolished physical spec requirements, allowing vendors to repurpose their Android models for WP with minimal effort.
BTW, "full" Windows is a moving target, so don't take it as gospel. From the grapevine, future Win will bifurcate into two base SKUs, one with desktop and one without (nee Windows RT). Reportedly these will be platform-agnostic, ie x86 will also sport a sans-desktop version, and what was previously RT will simply be the ARM port but without the branding. "Free" Win can conceivably be only for the sans-desktop version, ie for consumption-only devices, while productivity devices (10"+) will still sport the MS tax.
But that's in the future (read: Win9). Yes, for this year, free Win will mean the "full" x86 Win that is being shoehorned into mini-tabs. This isn't out of generosity, but because it's all MS has at the moment to push mobiles with.
All this is subject to change. How much of Win will be free will likely depend on adoption rate of 8.x this year. If it continues to crater, then MS can step up the freebies to offset. If adoption picks up, MS can tighten the gift bag.
The point? Selling Windows on mobiles, what else? MS first effort, in pushing premium hardware like Surface and expensive 2n1's, has flopped like a fish. The second try is predicated on low price, starting with the ill-fated $300 8" tabs. That didn't fly either, so now comes the last-ditch effort of "free."
We'll see how well OEMs bite. New product intros coming in late summer & fall should be good indicators. HP's response in particular will be noteworthy.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
so if I understood you correctly this is what you saying will mostly happen..
1) WP >> FREE
2) Windows for media consumption ( which will mostly be only Metro apps ) >> FREE
3) Full Windows capable of running Professional apps ( Metro + Dektop ) >> PAID

1) WP is already free. That was how MS managed to corral all those new "OEM partners" at MWC earlier this year. It probably has been for a while.
2) x86 Win is officially free starting now, but my guess is that it was already free starting with the mini-tab crop. Note that this applies only to OEMs. It isn't free for end-users as a standalone piece of software. Speaking of which, with current emphasis on clouds and services, retail standalone version will likely cease to exist going forward. OS images will still be around for business & enterprise customers.
3) For now, there is still only one base version of Windows (incl legacy aka "desktop"). Whether MS detaches the legacy component into a separate "paid" SKU is still a matter of conjecture (that's what the rumor sez anyway.) OOH, the pressure to find new revenue stream is high; OTOH, pushing legacy into "paid" will incur the ire of the vast Windows userbase. It will probably happen at some point, but not immediately with Win9 next year.
To be clear, the only difference between "free" and "paid" is slightly cheaper Win toys, since the cost (or lack of) is subsumed into the overall device cost. It's not a dramatic difference.
MS has many different options to monetize, now that SaaS is in play. But the first order of business is still to get people to buy into 8.x. My guess is that there'll be a second update in the fall--probably with the Start Menu--to goose holiday sales.

You're missing a CRITICAL part: Free to OEMs. You can't get a free copy of Win8.2 for your DVP8 and then put it on your homebuilt desktop or some such thing.
On the other hand, the desktop doesn't appear to be going anywhere on DVP8, and if Dell wanted to release a new DVP8.1, they would now be able to get the OEM copies of Windows for it free of charge. They would still have to pay for the copies to install on DVP11s or some such...
Not sure why this is confusing. The announcement was straightforward enough.

GoodDayToDie said:
You're missing a CRITICAL part: Free to OEMs. You can't get a free copy of Win8.2 for your DVP8 and then put it on your homebuilt desktop or some such thing.
On the other hand, the desktop doesn't appear to be going anywhere on DVP8, and if Dell wanted to release a new DVP8.1, they would now be able to get the OEM copies of Windows for it free of charge. They would still have to pay for the copies to install on DVP11s or some such...
Not sure why this is confusing. The announcement was straightforward enough.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I realise its for the OEMs but technically wont it mean DVP users and similar 8" tablet owners will be getting windows updates for life ( W9 W10 etc)??? since they are getting windows copies for free???
and my doubt was how non power users will simply opt for tabelts and run their normal apps by extending it multple monitors and stuff via miracast of hdmi out or some other setup...
Isnt MS loosing money cause of this??

What part of OEM is confusing? End users are not OEMs. They *may* end up getting free upgrades (although in time their hardware will of course become obsolete, but so far both 8.1 and 8.1u1 have been free upgrades) but that's not promised here. This is just to ensure that OEMs don't switch to stop shipping small Windows devices on account of the price (Android being the obvious competitor).
As for "MS loosing[sic] money" that's kind of a weird question to answer. Obviously, it doesn't directly cost them anything to provide software licenses. However, it does have an opportunity cost which is basically "how much money could they have made by charging for the copies instead?" and if they opportunity costs are high enough, they could fail to recoup their investment in developing the next version. With that said, though, remember that small, touch-centric Win8.x devices are the ideal use case for Windows Store apps... of which which MS gets a cut from every sale. So they could end up making more money this way, because there will be more small Win8 evices sold than there otherwise would be and therefore more people buying Store apps. Time will tell.