The announcement that Nexus One users won’t be getting upgraded to Android 4.0 Ice Cream Sandwich led some to justifiably question Google’s support of their devices. I look at it a little differently: Nexus One owners are lucky. I’ve been researching the history of OS updates on Android phones and Nexus One users have fared much, much better than most Android buyers.
I went back and found every Android phone shipped in the United States 1 up through the middle of last year. I then tracked down every update that was released for each device - be it a major OS upgrade or a minor support patch - as well as prices and release & discontinuation dates. I compared these dates & versions to the currently shipping version of Android at the time. The resulting picture isn’t pretty - well, not for Android users:
I found this i didnt write this
Other than the original G1 and MyTouch, virtually all of the millions of phones represented by this chart are still under contract today. If you thought that entitled you to some support, think again:
7 of the 18 Android phones never ran a current version of the OS. 12 of 18 only ran a current version of the OS for a matter of weeks or less. 10 of 18 were at least two major versions behind well within their two year contract period. 11 of 18 stopped getting any support updates less than a year after release. 13 of 18 stopped getting any support updates before they even stopped selling the device or very shortly thereafter. 15 of 18 don’t run Gingerbread, which shipped in December 2010. In a few weeks, when Ice Cream Sandwich comes out, every device on here will be another major version behind. At least 16 of 18 will almost certainly never get Ice Cream Sandwich.
Also worth noting that each bar in the chart starts from the first day of release - so it only gets worse for people who bought their phone late in its sales period.
Why Is This So Bad? This may be stating the obvious but there are at least three major reasons.
Consumers Get Screwed Ever since the iPhone turned every smartphone into a blank slate, the value of a phone is largely derived from the software it can run and how well the phone can run it. When you’re making a 2 year commitment to a device, it’d be nice to have some way to tell if the software was going to be remotely current in a year or, heck, even a month. Turns out that’s nearly impossible - here are two examples:
The Samsung Behold II on T-Mobile was the most expensive Android phone ever and Samsung promoted that it would get a major update to Eclair at least. But at launch the phone was already two major versions behind — and then Samsung decided not to do the update after all, and it fell three major OS versions behind. Every one ever sold is still under contract today.
The Motorola Devour on Verizon launched with a Megan Fox Super Bowl ad, while reviews said it was “built to last and it delivers on features.” As it turned out, the Devour shipped with an OS that was already outdated. Before the next Super Bowl came around, it was three major versions behind. Every one ever sold is still under contract until sometime next year.
Developers Are Constrained Besides the obvious platform fragmentation problems, consider this comparison: iOS developers, like Instapaper’s Marco Arment, waited patiently until just this month to raise their apps’ minimum requirement to the 11 month old iOS 4.2.1. They can do so knowing that it’s been well over 3 years since anyone bought an iPhone that couldn’t run that OS. If developers apply that same standard to Android, it will be at least 2015 before they can start requiring 2010’s Gingerbread OS. That’s because every US carrier is still selling - even just now introducing 2 - smartphones that will almost certainly never run Gingerbread and beyond. Further, those are phones still selling for actual upfront money - I’m not even counting the generally even more outdated & presumably much more popular free phones.
It seems this is one area the Android/Windows comparison holds up: most app developers will end up targeting an ancient version of the OS in order to maximize market reach.
Security Risks Loom In the chart, the dashed line in the middle of each bar indicates how long that phone was getting any kind of support updates - not just major OS upgrades. The significant majority of models have received very limited support after sales were discontinued. If a security or privacy problem popped up in old versions of Android or its associated apps (i.e. the browser), it’s hard to imagine that all of these no-longer-supported phones would be updated. This is only less likely as the number of phones that manufacturers would have to go back and deal with increases: Motorola, Samsung, and HTC all have at least 20 models each in the field already, each with a range of carriers that seemingly have to be dealt with individually.
Why Don’t Android Phones Get Updated? That’s a very good question. Obviously a big part of the problem is that Android has to go from Google to the phone manufacturers to the carriers to the devices, whereas iOS just goes from Apple directly to devices. The hacker community (e.g. CyanogenMod, et cetera) has frequently managed to get these phones to run the newer operating systems, so it isn’t a hardware issue.
It appears to be a widely held viewpoint 3 that there’s no incentive for smartphone manufacturers to update the OS: because manufacturers don’t make any money after the hardware sale, they want you to buy another phone as soon as possible. If that’s really the case, the phone manufacturers are spectacularly dumb: ignoring the 2 year contract cycle & abandoning your users isn’t going to engender much loyalty when they do buy a new phone. Further, it’s been fairly well established that Apple also really only makes money from hardware sales, and yet their long term update support is excellent (see chart).
In other words, Apple’s way of getting you to buy a new phone is to make you really happy with your current one, whereas apparently Android phone makers think they can get you to buy a new phone by making you really unhappy with your current one. Then again, all of this may be ascribing motives and intent where none exist - it’s entirely possible that
th your current one. Then again, all of this may be ascribing motives and intent where none exist - it’s entirely possible that the root cause of the problem is just flat-out bad management (and/or the aforementioned spectacular dumbness).
A Price Observation All of the even slightly cheaper phones are much worse than the iPhone when it comes to OS support, but it’s interesting to note that most of the phones on this list were actually not cheaper than the iPhone when they were released. Unlike the iPhone however, the “full-priced” phones are frequently discounted in subsequent months. So the “low cost” phones that fueled Android’s generally accepted price advantage in this period were basically either (a) cheaper from the outset, and ergo likely outdated & terribly supported or (b) purchased later in the phone’s lifecycle, and ergo likely outdated & terribly supported.
Also, at any price point you’d better love your rebates. If you’re financially constrained enough to be driven by upfront price, you can’t be that excited about plunking down another $100 cash and waiting weeks or more to get it back. And sometimes all you’re getting back is a “$100 Promotion Card” for your chosen provider. Needless to say, the iPhone has never had a rebate.
Along similar lines, a very small but perhaps telling point: the price of every single Android phone I looked at ended with 99 cents - something Apple has never done (the iPhone is $199, not $199.99). It’s almost like a warning sign: you’re buying a platform that will nickel-and-dime you with ads and undeletable bloatware, and it starts with those 99 cents. And that damn rebate form they’re hoping you don’t send in.
Notes on the chart and data Why stop at June 2010? I’m not going to. I do think that having 15 months or so of history gives a good perspective on how a phone has been treated, but it’s also just a labor issue - it takes a while to dredge through the various sites to determine the history of each device. I plan to continue on and might also try to publish the underlying table with references. I also acknowledge that it’s possible I’ve missed something along the way.
Android Release Dates For the major Android version release dates, I used the date at which it was actually available on a normal phone you could get via normal means. I did not use the earlier SDK release date, nor the date at which ROMs, hacks, source, et cetera were available.
Outside the US Finally, it’s worth noting that people outside the US have often had it even worse. For example, the Nexus One didn’t go on sale in Europe until 5 months after the US, the Droid/Milestone FroYo update happened over 7 months later there, and the Cliq never got updated at all outside of the US.
Im not a fanboy i despise apple and the ios just thought this waz intersting because its true devices are not supported nearly enough
Agreed. And a good read too, even thought there was not much new info here I didnt know except some of your stats.. but what is the point here? Are you trying to accomplish something? or convince people to buy iPhones or Nexus phones? or rally us to join together and demand updates from carriers? Or just a general discussion so we can get some frustration out or..?
Fits right in the ATRIX forum, right?
No someone posted that link on motos facebook just figured id share. Ill always be an android user even if they never update devices. Just thought was an intersting article. I ignored the iphone parts but i guess updates is a bigger problem then i realized and hope the manufacturers abd google stop this and start supporting devices longer.
Mabye all android users need too start complaining too google and the manufacturers about this because . All over xda and other forums people are not happy about updates. Is a hot . . topic would be nice to not need a device every couple months to stay on a current os. And now with the dual core phone that are supposed too be futre proff. Lol yeah right even when quad cores are out the manufactures will continue this trend drop support on current devices so people have too buy a new one too enjoy new android flavors. But i really hope something changes that
All I gotta say is that we are well within our 18 months of support. Motorola needs to read that memo...
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apple has one software iteration per year, while android has gone through 3 in the last 1.5 years.
The question is does this really matter when these same devices (or at least most of them) still run the most current is through the help of CM?
Why would the manufacturer waste their resources when users can run a cm copy already?
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crossix said:
The question is does this really matter when these same devices (or at least most of them) still run the most current is through the help of CM?
Why would the manufacturer waste their resources when users can run a cm copy already?
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Us CM users (actually, ROM users in general) are in the vast minority of Android users. A very vocal minority, but a minority nontheless. So it hurts the manufacture's bottom line when these updates dont happen.
I have 3 friends that own an LG Ally. A mid range phone. And all 3 don't give a damn which android version they're on. They all got it for free with a 2 year contract. I feel they got ripped off. But again they don't care and I wish I had their attitude. :/
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dLo GSR said:
apple has one software iteration per year, while android has gone through 3 in the last 1.5 years.
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That's why people on Engadget are bragging that they can put IOS5 on their 3GS phones. Heck even Nokia is getting Anna and Belle within a couple of months on a completely dead OS.
Make it happen Motorola, (even if it's 2012) or many will be going to Samsung...
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Agreed my point in posting this is the manufactures need too suport us longer its ridicilous ifour hardware now can run new android flavors ajd it doesnt happen because there too greedy and want us too buy new devices constantly. I should have erased all the ios partsbelieve me all ios is just a pretty app launcher . Pretty much adw or launcher pro sums up the functionaloty of ios. And i wouldnt ever leave android even if i was offered an iphone 5 free
This is a dual core phone yes theres several on the market but its not yet even the standard most people are still runing single core androids so too me if we dont see an official ics ota pretty darn ridicilous
crossix said:
The question is does this really matter when these same devices (or at least most of them) still run the most current is through the help of CM?
Why would the manufacturer waste their resources when users can run a cm copy already?
Sent from my MB860 using XDA App
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Because they can't plan around warranty voiding 3rd party modifications. Not to mention Joe Blow wont open advanced settings, let alone flash a ROM. Ever do tech support? People are stupid.
Which sums up the thread. Yes we are being gauged on these phones, and it works.... because people as a whole don't know or care.
Want to spread the word on that graph? Dumb it down, add a cat or two, put it in a black caption box with some generic 'meme' text and post it on Failbook.
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Haha thank u i agree with u and thats hilarious because its true dumb it down and put it on fail book haha.
I think it has to due more with the fact that every 6 months there is a new hardware sequel to your phone.
Apple has less phone models in 5 years then Samsung, Motorola, HTC, etc. have in a single year.They are all focused on this hardware cold-war at the expense of software.
Our phones may only be 6-12 months old for us, but to the manufacturer, they are already 3 generations back...
What happened to this?
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Related
One Carrier. One device yearly. Multiple updates throughout the year. But one of the best parts, imo, No AT&T control. Apple seems to have complete control. I know a lot of people who really dislike that, but I know even more who are pulling their hair out because they signed a two year contract on a device that may never see Android 2.3. Or by the time it does there will be 20 newer, better and faster devices out with 3.0. It's frustrating when you not only have to wait on Google to produce a newer update, but then you have to wait on the phone manufacturer to produce an update due to their proprietary UI, and then have to wait on the carrier to add their bloatware and restrictions.
These forums are our only way to vent these frustrations. The carrier doesn't care, and the manufacturer doesn't care. They have your name on the dotted line. You are theirs for the next two years if you don't want an ETF.
Why not release stock Android with the option of carrier UI download?
Or at least a system where you can go to stock Android for your device, downloaded directly from Google in an itunes manner if you wanted.
I hear the term "fragmented" a lot these days when people talk about Android. So many devices with so many versions of Android.
I've heard talk of an Android overhaul with 3.0. May'be rumors.
When we do get 2.2, We will go through the whole thing over again for 2.3.
2.3 is already out. It should be made ready for all Android devices that can support it an be available as a download for those devices. At the same time the carriers should be working on their custom UI and have that downloadable ASAP. May'be that's impossible due to the fact that Google doesn't produce these devices, just the base software on them.
Just my rant/questions/vent
I do see your point.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
Samsung site is advertising 2.2 froyo for epic?
I never looked at it that way. We definitely wouldn't be that pissed now. Although samsung is slapping us in the face advertising froyo 2.2 for our phones here http://www.samsung.com/us/mobile/cell-phones/SPH-D700ZKASPR-features
And you are posting this in the forum of a device with a slideout keyboard and 4 inch SAMOLED screen.
Yes I sure would love to be locked into one form factor and system internals.
diego1985 said:
I never looked at it that way. We definitely wouldn't be that pissed now. Although samsung is slapping us in the face advertising froyo 2.2 for our phones here http://www.samsung.com/us/mobile/cell-phones/SPH-D700ZKASPR-features
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This ish pissis me off...... and I'm in us stuck on unofficial 2.2
Sent from my Samsung epic using XDA App
What device hasn't been upgraded either officially or through custom roms within a year of its release to a newer build of Android? The iPhone gets updates once a year.
Anyone pulling their hair out because their device isn't getting an official port of Android 2.3 is an idiot to begin with. Buy devices that are worthy on their own with current software. Don't hope that you MAY get an update to make it the phone you really want. And if you somehow NEED to get updates because your e-peen just won't be big enough without the latest Android build on your phone, then buy a damn nexus 1 or S.
dakarf said:
And you are posting this in the forum of a device with a slideout keyboard and 4 inch SAMOLED screen.
Yes I sure would love to be locked into one form factor and system internals.
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Just talking about one slice of the Apple, not the whole thing. There is also something good to be said of openness and choice.
There is just so much anger and frustration when it comes to Android and I think a lot of it has to do with manufacturer and carrier control and their decision to keep the consumer out of the loop. Vague and general answers are not much better than no answers at all. The "you'll get it when you get it" attitude some people have, although it's true, does not ease the sense of irritation.
Theres no way cr-apple had the right idea, there while system is flawed right down to one piece of hardware for all. All other things aside, I hate apple hardware period. And everyone having the sandstone except for color is stupid. Android ftw. Open hardware/software ftw. Samoled ftw.
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Maybe Froyo will come soon with these changes coming to the website. We know its close.
Sent from my shoe, I mean....Epic shoe... I mean Samsung Epic! http://mobilehighway.blogspot.com/
While maybe apple doesn't have the right idea it sounds like windows phone 7 may have it right. Multiple devices, multiple carriers, multiple form factors, manufacterer controlled updates. Too bad its not as awesome as android yet
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The thing is its messy right now but once 3.0 comes things will change a lot...why? simple, right now Google is releasing bi-annually..and not waiting for manufacturers to catch up...once 3.0 hits Android will be released once a year...Google will also start working closer with their partners and manufacturers...
In reality I don't think Apple or WP7 has the right idea...simply because right now entered a cell phone age..aka phone specs are jumping every year by a good leap...
Apple has a policy where they upgraded the 3gs and the 3g to version 4 which is nice for average consumers..but at the same time it kinda forces partners to limit themselves to the minimum specs...same will happen with WP7 and their minimum of snapdragons...once dual cores come out and apps take advantage of these, all WP7 devices will be left behind because the apps have to be backwards compatible with the lower specced versions..(now I know they may have implementations of which hardware can use what App..but then both M$ and Apple would be eating their own words of "fragmentation" as they call it)
I can understand how an average consumer would be left out right now..but at same time average consumer does not care much for upgrades as much as we do either...either way past 3.0 it will get a lot better..
apple and windows are limited because thats the way they want it. f*** that. this android is the most universal device ive ever seen. the os is written very well. i like no limits or restrictions to the possibilities other than the hardware. do you really think the next iphone will have a dual core sssshhhhtttt i doubt it. even if it does it will still be slower than this phone ha. google is getting their act together with android because it is in their best interest because they will make way more money off of all the advertising from everytime we search stuff and the info they get from when we use navigation.
http://blogs.computerworld.com/17649/android_upgrades
I can't give you a better argument not to go for SE.
Thank you for the info, on the other hand i can probably find such a site for every car brand and i am still driving :lol
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I think this phone will be quickly replaced by SE with a better higher quality device look at how many PSP models there are. They will probably hold back on updates for a newer model.
It might last a year at most before a "PSP slim" phone, Or dare I say a white model (lol)
P.S I may of had bad experience with the x!0 series owning 3 different models so my post may be a bit biased.
I had a SE Satio, which was a complete failure. Support for les then 6 months, 2 minor bug fixes within those 6 months.
The support of the X1 and the X10 and family dropped fairly quick as well. And also consider that the X10 started with outdated software already.
Why would SE change this policy?
In my opinion they stripped the company so harsch (2009/2010) of all unnescacarry business departments and personnel that they can't support the phones for to long. They just need to sell phones in masses to make profit. They can't give the support the customers asks, or demands. And customers benchmark companies and expect SE to have the same update ratio as other companies like HTC, or Samsung.
They won't give the same update ratio as other companies because they don't have the funds. Everything is focussed on sales, not the aftersales...
SonyEricsson: We won't keep doing what we are doing now! Promise!
Thanks for posting this, Bestevaer.
If, as they have promised, SonyEricsson (SE) really has turned the corner on keeping current on android versions, then the best way for them to demonstrate this newfound commitment would be to begin updating the X10 series.
Why would anyone take the gamble on SE keeping the Xperia arc updated?
If enough consumers are well informed, then SE is going to miss a whole cycle on this series of hardware upgrades. Keeping current customers satisfied should be seen as an investment on getting and keeping future customers.
I know I'll never buy another SE device if they don't keep my X10 reasonably current for the life of my two-year contract -- and I advise my "laggard" friends looking for android devices of such.
When HTC is doing such a good job keeping their devices current, why would anyone go SE?
Because most people don't know any better and only looking for a good looking device. I really know people who are now extremely happy because I showed them there is a market, you won't believe it, but I swear it's true! Those people have no idea if they are on 2.1 or 1.6 or 2.3.. And they really don't care.
We are with far too few to get through to SE's executives... They really don't care if 1% of their users are complaining all the time, they only want to sell big numbers and to do so they make stunning looking devices.
It's all about money and reaching targets, to get there you have to make some thing for the mass public, the top managers only get their asses fired when they don't reach their targets...
For me, once again, I will get one as I already preordered one, just to see by myself what they learned in the last period...
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PollPixx said:
Because most people don't know any better and only looking for a good looking device. I really know people who are now extremely happy because I showed them there is a market, you won't believe it, but I swear it's true! Those people have no idea if they are on 2.1 or 1.6 or 2.3.. And they really don't care.
We are with far too few to get through to SE's executives... They really don't care if 1% of their users are complaining all the time, they only want to sell big numbers and to do so they make stunning looking devices.
It's all about money and reaching targets, to get there you have to make some thing for the mass public, the top managers only get their asses fired when they don't reach their targets...
For me, once again, I will get one as I already preordered one, just to see by myself what they learned in the last period...
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You are right about SE that they make beautifull phones. You are also right that there are allot of people who go to a store and buy a nice looking new phone when there 2, or 1 year subscription has expired (maybe a new SE).
But you forget that it's very costly for a company to lose loyal customers. Not only in money but also in feedback. And feedback is a free advise for a company. But mine and many others experiences with SE is that they don't care about feedback, so they will not improve as a company. And if you don't improve as a company you will lose marketshare, your position comparing to the competition will weaken. See what is happening atm with SE if you compare them to HTC, Samsung or Apple if you like. They lose market share and loyal customers.
In 2010 they shipped less handsets comparing to previous years and they lost a considerable market share while the smartphone market was growing rapidly. (Side note: yes they made profit in 2010, but every company can fire people and cut company business and make profit. There is nothing fancy about it).
Good point there, but so far they never listened to any feedback as far as I can tell. I stopped sending them mails a long time ago as they never replied, and when they did, they completely missed my point of criticism by sending a preset marketing message
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Bestevaer said:
You are right about SE that they make beautifull phones. You are also right that there are allot of people who go to a store and buy a nice looking new phone when there 2, or 1 year subscription has expired (maybe a new SE).
But you forget that it's very costly for a company to lose loyal customers. Not only in money but also in feedback. And feedback is a free advise for a company. But mine and many others experiences with SE is that they don't care about feedback, so they will not improve as a company. And if you don't improve as a company you will lose marketshare, your position comparing to the competition will weaken. See what is happening atm with SE if you compare them to HTC, Samsung or Apple if you like. They lose market share and loyal customers.
In 2010 they shipped less handsets comparing to previous years and they lost a considerable market share while the smartphone market was growing rapidly. (Side note: yes they made profit in 2010, but every company can fire people and cut company business and make profit. There is nothing fancy about it).
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You leave me no choice but to argue. Yes, losing loyal customers is important, I agree, but that they are not listening to feedback is no where near what you said. If you do now know how internal works, please refrain from saying anything of this sort. It's much better if you would just say they work inefficiently, and they already admit it. They can't take in all the voice of ALL consumers. I know that they're at least trying from the scope of the updates they send out internally. They kept adding features and changing support. This is to get the maximum output for the time frame.
Shipped less handsets? Well have you looked at the number of handsets they announced? The price range also increased. They're aiming for premium markets, which means they're not mass producing their units. Whatever number is produced, it will only be sold that amount only. They made more profit selling smaller volumes, but higher price range, so it's not rocket science to have profit even if they ship less. You think kicking out employees make them yield profit? Please study on what the reconstruction cost includes and how ridiculous it costs. Thank you.
http://gizmodo.com/5733556/the-complete-state-of-android-froyo-upgrades
Any thoughts?
unknown13x said:
You leave me no choice but to argue. Yes, losing loyal customers is important, I agree, but that they are not listening to feedback is no where near what you said. If you do now know how internal works, please refrain from saying anything of this sort. It's much better if you would just say they work inefficiently, and they already admit it. They can't take in all the voice of ALL consumers. I know that they're at least trying from the scope of the updates they send out internally. They kept adding features and changing support. This is to get the maximum output for the time frame.
Shipped less handsets? Well have you looked at the number of handsets they announced? The price range also increased. They're aiming for premium markets, which means they're not mass producing their units. Whatever number is produced, it will only be sold that amount only. They made more profit selling smaller volumes, but higher price range, so it's not rocket science to have profit even if they ship less. You think kicking out employees make them yield profit? Please study on what the reconstruction cost includes and how ridiculous it costs. Thank you.
http://gizmodo.com/5733556/the-complete-state-of-android-froyo-upgrades
Any thoughts?
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I don't know about there internal structure but I do know how bunisess engineering works. And what I experience and see there business engineering isn't working out for a bunch of there customers.
It is understandable that they can't listen to all there customers wisches, but what boggles me is that there hasn't made an improvement after thet Satio and the Vivaz (my scope). Those phones got terrible support, and customers received terrible feedback. Since then no improvements have been made, and I honestly don't think they will make improvements according to all the new phones they introduce. All these phones need support as well...
They shipped less handset, but as you mentioned the average prices went up several 10th's of dollars. But compared to the smartphone market they lost market share and other phone manufacturers shipped more phones instead of less. Check out there Q3 report of 2010.
http://www.ericsson.com/res/investors/docs/q-reports/2010/9month10-en.pdf
Bestevaer said:
I don't know about there internal structure but I do know how bunisess engineering works. And what I experience and see there business engineering isn't working out for a bunch of there customers.
It is understandable that they can't listen to all there customers wisches, but what boggles me is that there hasn't made an improvement after thet Satio and the Vivaz (my scope). Those phones got terrible support, and customers received terrible feedback. Since then no improvements have been made, and I honestly don't think they will make improvements according to all the new phones they introduce. All these phones need support as well...
They shipped less handset, but as you mentioned the average prices went up several 10th's of dollars. But compared to the smartphone market they lost market share and other phone manufacturers shipped more phones instead of less. Check out there Q3 report of 2010.
http://www.ericsson.com/res/investors/docs/q-reports/2010/9month10-en.pdf
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So...looking at your document doesn't prove anything you said. They're holding on through each quarter while having increased income per quarter...what's your point? Their market share dropped a merely 1% since 2009 from the latest document I received
All brands has dropped their support for Symbian. It's just the reality that this is not the platform for the future. I'm not going to mention any brand, but you can find that out yourself which brand also dropped their support the same time SE did. They did released 2 MR updates as for their policy. It's not as if they dropped the support midway. They fulfilled its 1 year support. What else is needed when the market doesn't even support the platform anymore? Also, wasn't your post initially for Android? What's the point in dragging in Symbian?
SE's standing in terms of updating their devices is no brainer. This phone however will sell for cosmetic reasons. Despite the massive outrage all over the internet, SE will still retain its market share mainly because they are still comming up with good designs.
However the news that SE devices will now get faster updates should be taken with a pinch of salt. Things don't change over night.
It all comes down to personal preference really. If you want a slick looking device; SE is the way to go. If updates matter go for HTC or Nexus.
unknown13x said:
So...looking at your document doesn't prove anything you said. They're holding on through each quarter while having increased income per quarter...what's your point? Their market share dropped a merely 1% since 2009 from the latest document I received
All brands has dropped their support for Symbian. It's just the reality that this is not the platform for the future. I'm not going to mention any brand, but you can find that out yourself which brand also dropped their support the same time SE did. They did released 2 MR updates as for their policy. It's not as if they dropped the support midway. They fulfilled its 1 year support. What else is needed when the market doesn't even support the platform anymore? Also, wasn't your post initially for Android? What's the point in dragging in Symbian?
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You should see the 1% drop in marketshare in perspective. In 2009 the smartphone market grew rapidly, but SE didn't took a part of the pie. And you should (as a critical customer) think why they didn't grew as other companies.
My point is that you should not take the gamble. Buy a SE and there could be a possibility that you (again) end up with poor support, since they never ever improved there support. But you do end up with a beautifulll looking phone.....
The example of the Satio and Vivaz where just to make my point clear about the lack of support and feedback from SE. And that there policy hasn't changed thus far with the introduction of Android.
Sent from my Desire HD using XDA App
As far as I am concerned, SE are dead. I had the X1, SE are worst for software updates. I remember getting froyo on my HTC desire a good 2-3 months before the X10 got 2.1 eclair.
SE have stated that its a fresh start, lets see if they can hold up to that promise, but after the X10, I can't trust SE anymore, i'd much rather go for HTC, Moto or even samsung...
unknown13x said:
Shipped less handsets? Well have you looked at the number of handsets they announced? The price range also increased. They're aiming for premium markets, which means they're not mass producing their units. Whatever number is produced, it will only be sold that amount only. They made more profit selling smaller volumes, but higher price range, so it's not rocket science to have profit even if they ship less. You think kicking out employees make them yield profit? Please study on what the reconstruction cost includes and how ridiculous it costs. Thank you.
http://gizmodo.com/5733556/the-complete-state-of-android-froyo-upgrades
Any thoughts?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Let me comment, please.
I have 30 years of IT experience, and 15 of that in application development in FT100 companies.
SE was unable to take part in the astounding demand for new cell phones this year for a number reasons and they don't yet understand the Android philosophy:
1. They were unable to bring X10 family the USA market early.
2. The hardware was excellent when it was announced over two years ago, but they did not make any changes to that hardware to keep that edge. There was no slip-streaming of a better CPU/GPU or "N" wifi etc. SE took advantage of the reduced costs 'by the time' they went to actually manufacture the phones and made design decisions that compromised the performance of the phone, it's upgradeability and saved them money in the parts list.
3. SE continues to not be able to engage serious interest by T-Mobile in SE phones while not one of the two top carriers, is one that they could certainly make a phone for. Equinox is the only phone they are currently selling and only the TM506 prior to that.
4. SE's move to ATL (according to some posts on XDA by former SE Raleigh staff) and the general reduction in programming staff lost those programmers most familiar with the AT&T firmware testing. Historically in the AT&T relationship, AT&T NEVER RELEASED a second firmware for any SE phone even though SE traditionally has released several versions for every phone they have ever made. AT&T has never felt that updates were important for any phone they sold, to them, it is just a pain in the ass. MS forced them to do updates for Windows phones and the contract with Apple didn't give them a choice.
5. Android is supposed to compete with iPhones IOS. One of the ways that makes the iPhone so desirable is that even the old hardware runs the new version of the OS. This means that people who want to stay in grandfathered contracts have a way to resell their old phone to people who don't want to upgrade to a subsidized phone and don't care about the latest and greatest hardware version. Prior model iPhones were selling for $100-$199 just as the last version came out. (Many were shipped to markets not covered by Apple.) This funds the purchase of new models either subsidized or not. Android OS updates make the phones resalable. A Android phone that is out of phase with the latest OS is worthless for resale. SE and other OEMs don't seem to be taking this into account as a part of Apple's strategy to make the iphone have increased value and are not applying it to their own strategy.
6. SE's heads have decided to "not compete on hardware." Well, this is a problem since the people who are looking for Android phones specifically are generally technical and would certainly look at hardware. The X10 was targeted at women as if it was a traditional SE fashion phone with enhanced social networking, all those early ads were showing women using the phone. The Captivate and the X10 arrived within 'days' of each other. The Captivate certainly has the hardware spec advantage over the X10a. Even small things like the internal storage was huge by comparison, as well as the full 512mb ram. Even though the Captivate phone is seriously flawed and fairly ugly, the 'hardware' outsold the X10 by 30x (at AT&T alone). AT&T has not found it necessary to 2-4-1 it or even reduce the pricing significantly, and it was MORE expensive than the X10a through the entire cycle. SE's proud it made 29-30% in the first 3 qtrs 2010 on the phones, but the last quarter I think we will see that number reduced due to the heavy discounting they did to dump the X10's in stock.
SE's so proud of the 30% markup? Apple makes 100%. Samsung was using parts they actually manufactured in other divisions such as the screens, memory and other components, it would not surprise me if they made 50 or 60%.
7. SE didn't listen customers or even to their own employees. SE gave X10's to every SonyStyle store employee to drum up support for sales. Guess what, every SonyStyle employee that I've spoken to, and I have spoken with more than a dozen, either sold the phone right away or gave it away to a family member. I could not find a single employee that actually used it. As a result they didn't really know how to use or demo it in the stores and since many have iPhones or other Android devices didn't even know it didn't have MT (witnessed by them trying to pinch zoom). The actual sale of a phone ( I bought two of these at SonyStyle stores in two different states), was a 'rare' event that the manager used for training other employees. SonyStyle was giving these phones away for Xmas sales with a two year contract, again to dump inventory. Employees when they realized that I was not just some old guy but a technical person were questioning why I would even WANT a X10. (It wasn't so much for the phone as for SE support which I have always liked and the better than run-of-the-mill PC software to link the phone which they butchered with the X10.)
8. Yes, SE never promised 2.2 or MT. (And some of the other companies have reneged or delayed a 2.2/2.3 update for many phones.) As for the global 1year policy, this is terrible, as the phone will only have been in the US for 8 months. However, with the admitted failure to deliver good customer service this year after the reorganization, Android 2.2 or 2.3 would certainly be a good will gesture to the millions of X10 owners and would make the phone worth a few dollars in resale. Only a buy back program for upgrading would be better, though the ARC with less than 300mb internal storage and 512mb ram, an already 6 month old CPU/GPU combo (which is now very cheap) isn't 'cutting edge' by a long shot.
Stan.S, brilliant informative post!
I agree with all the points you raise but I think I will still actually buy the ARC if it comes to market without delay especially after seeing the latest blog video demonstrating what I think is the best camera capability of any phone (besides the nokia n8).
I currently own a HTC Legend and while it has had updates (maintenance and OS) it was annoying that the 2.2 update came after Vodafone began rolling out a version for their phones, pretty irritating especially as I had bought the phone with no contract..So it seems no one is free of bad practices..
Regarding the lack of cutting edge hardware I was slightly put off that there was no mention of dual-core, but then I remember I work as an animator for a games studio that works on well known games and its amazing what we can squeeze out of a DS.
But frankly Im after a super fast camera with excellent video capabilities and I haven't really seen that from any other brands as an animator its annoying carrying a camera and a phone for those odd moments I need to grab/video I always forget to charge my camera or its too cumbersome for that 1 moment... but my phone I have it with me always..
flynny said:
But frankly Im after a super fast camera with excellent video capabilities and I haven't really seen that from any other brands as an animator its annoying carrying a camera and a phone for those odd moments I need to grab/video I always forget to charge my camera or its too cumbersome for that 1 moment... but my phone I have it with me always..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks.
Well, the sensor they put in is certainly a level up from most on the market, however, it is again the cheaper of the two possible sensors available. I also understand that the larger (12mpix) sensor would require the phone to be thicker and have a better lens as well as a higher cost.
If SE was really into the PREMIUM market as they claim, they know that the Cybershot variations of their phones have always been beloved by consumers. X10's and the Arc certainly show that the people from the camera section have had input into the design.
This is supposed to be a flagship phone, and there is not a single component that is Outstanding, it's more like the best of the middle ground.
It's always possible that Arc will have brothers and sisters announced at MWC and a bit more differentiation will show up beyond a keyboard or size, but the constant choice of cheaper components (and the reduced internal storage) will certainly cause all the reviewers to comment on the 'below expectations of hardware available at this time' of the devices.
stan.s said:
Let me comment, please.
I have 30 years of IT experience, and 15 of that in application development in FT100 companies.
SE was unable to take part in the astounding demand for new cell phones this year for a number reasons and they don't yet understand the Android philosophy:
1. They were unable to bring X10 family the USA market early.
2. The hardware was excellent when it was announced over two years ago, but they did not make any changes to that hardware to keep that edge. There was no slip-streaming of a better CPU/GPU or "N" wifi etc. SE took advantage of the reduced costs 'by the time' they went to actually manufacture the phones and made design decisions that compromised the performance of the phone, it's upgradeability and saved them money in the parts list.
3. SE continues to not be able to engage serious interest by T-Mobile in SE phones while not one of the two top carriers, is one that they could certainly make a phone for. Equinox is the only phone they are currently selling and only the TM506 prior to that.
4. SE's move to ATL (according to some posts on XDA by former SE Raleigh staff) and the general reduction in programming staff lost those programmers most familiar with the AT&T firmware testing. Historically in the AT&T relationship, AT&T NEVER RELEASED a second firmware for any SE phone even though SE traditionally has released several versions for every phone they have ever made. AT&T has never felt that updates were important for any phone they sold, to them, it is just a pain in the ass. MS forced them to do updates for Windows phones and the contract with Apple didn't give them a choice.
5. Android is supposed to compete with iPhones IOS. One of the ways that makes the iPhone so desirable is that even the old hardware runs the new version of the OS. This means that people who want to stay in grandfathered contracts have a way to resell their old phone to people who don't want to upgrade to a subsidized phone and don't care about the latest and greatest hardware version. Prior model iPhones were selling for $100-$199 just as the last version came out. (Many were shipped to markets not covered by Apple.) This funds the purchase of new models either subsidized or not. Android OS updates make the phones resalable. A Android phone that is out of phase with the latest OS is worthless for resale. SE and other OEMs don't seem to be taking this into account as a part of Apple's strategy to make the iphone have increased value and are not applying it to their own strategy.
6. SE's heads have decided to "not compete on hardware." Well, this is a problem since the people who are looking for Android phones specifically are generally technical and would certainly look at hardware. The X10 was targeted at women as if it was a traditional SE fashion phone with enhanced social networking, all those early ads were showing women using the phone. The Captivate and the X10 arrived within 'days' of each other. The Captivate certainly has the hardware spec advantage over the X10a. Even small things like the internal storage was huge by comparison, as well as the full 512mb ram. Even though the Captivate phone is seriously flawed and fairly ugly, the 'hardware' outsold the X10 by 30x (at AT&T alone). AT&T has not found it necessary to 2-4-1 it or even reduce the pricing significantly, and it was MORE expensive than the X10a through the entire cycle. SE's proud it made 29-30% in the first 3 qtrs 2010 on the phones, but the last quarter I think we will see that number reduced due to the heavy discounting they did to dump the X10's in stock.
SE's so proud of the 30% markup? Apple makes 100%. Samsung was using parts they actually manufactured in other divisions such as the screens, memory and other components, it would not surprise me if they made 50 or 60%.
7. SE didn't listen customers or even to their own employees. SE gave X10's to every SonyStyle store employee to drum up support for sales. Guess what, every SonyStyle employee that I've spoken to, and I have spoken with more than a dozen, either sold the phone right away or gave it away to a family member. I could not find a single employee that actually used it. As a result they didn't really know how to use or demo it in the stores and since many have iPhones or other Android devices didn't even know it didn't have MT (witnessed by them trying to pinch zoom). The actual sale of a phone ( I bought two of these at SonyStyle stores in two different states), was a 'rare' event that the manager used for training other employees. SonyStyle was giving these phones away for Xmas sales with a two year contract, again to dump inventory. Employees when they realized that I was not just some old guy but a technical person were questioning why I would even WANT a X10. (It wasn't so much for the phone as for SE support which I have always liked and the better than run-of-the-mill PC software to link the phone which they butchered with the X10.)
8. Yes, SE never promised 2.2 or MT. (And some of the other companies have reneged or delayed a 2.2/2.3 update for many phones.) As for the global 1year policy, this is terrible, as the phone will only have been in the US for 8 months. However, with the admitted failure to deliver good customer service this year after the reorganization, Android 2.2 or 2.3 would certainly be a good will gesture to the millions of X10 owners and would make the phone worth a few dollars in resale. Only a buy back program for upgrading would be better, though the ARC with less than 300mb internal storage and 512mb ram, an already 6 month old CPU/GPU combo (which is now very cheap) isn't 'cutting edge' by a long shot.
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Click to collapse
Very good post Stan.S!
If I may comment your points a little.
1. Hopefully this will change with arc. Seems like they have a deal with At&t.
2. Dont think hardware could have been so much better. They are using qualcomm hardware and their better processors are not done yet. Internal ROM could have been better though. More than 512 RAM is not necessary in my opinion.
3. From what you say about At&t, t-mobile seems a lot better
4. Same as above, Im not American so I wouldn't know
5. Again I think this will be better with arc. From what Ive seen here in Sweden, SE representatives seems to be really committed to upgrade their phones. They know they ****ed up.
6. Actually the head of the "heads" (Bert Nordberg) have said in a interview in the biggest economic newspaper here in Sweden that hardware is important and that they intend to win that race also. He said something like "its all about clock speed these days and we intend to take the lead". Its my understanding that Arc is not the über device of this year. It takes a while to plan these things and Bert probably influenced a later device. Also arc seems to be more about the looks and screen than the hardware. Its not a super highend device
7. That sucks. Probably the same everywhere. Hopefully arc will attract some more goodwill than the x10. Problem these days is that everyone has an iphone and wont leave that ecosystem.
8. An "insider" on a Swedish forum gave an explanation to why the x10 wont get 2.2. Apparently the boot loader is totally locked down. Even for SE people. X10 was never going to get 2.2 or even 2.1 for that matter. They cant change the kernel even if they want to. 2.1 was easy because it was the same kernel. SE ****ed up big on that one. Arcs boot loader is not locked down which will make upgrades easier, and a lot easier for xda to crack also
Edit. Link to interview with Bert Nordberg (in Swedish) http://di.se/Artiklar/2010/10/15/217454/Bert-Nordberg-gar-for-tillvaxt/
I like SE cause I tend to care more about hardware then software. When it comes to software I'm not looking for SE I'm looking at the great XDA developers community which is always upgrading every phone way before the manufacture does anyway.
thorstenn said:
7. That sucks. Probably the same everywhere. Hopefully arc will attract some more goodwill than the x10. Problem these days is that everyone has an iphone and wont leave that ecosystem.
8. An "insider" on a Swedish forum gave an explanation to why the x10 wont get 2.2. Apparently the boot loader is totally locked down. Even for SE people. X10 was never going to get 2.2 or even 2.1 for that matter. They cant change the kernel even if they want to. 2.1 was easy because it was the same kernel. SE ****ed up big on that one. Arcs boot loader is not locked down which will make upgrades easier, and a lot easier for xda to crack also
Edit. Link to interview with Bert Nordberg (in Swedish) http://di.se/Artiklar/2010/10/15/217454/Bert-Nordberg-gar-for-tillvaxt/
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Click to collapse
7. You say that leaving iPhone is not possible, but it's not true, there are people who wish to no longer be sheep and not straight jacketed. I talked to a couple of people just today who got HTC's when they decided to sell iphones.
8. Wait, they can't put another kernel on due to the bootloader? are you implying that the bootloader runs some sort of a checksum on the kernel or checks a specific offset address for something? There's only a limited number of things that would lock it to a specific kernel.....
I sometimes thing that by introducing updates to the OS so fast is Google doing the right thing.
Before you all start hitting at me please go through these two scenarios
An OS update every year which ensures that there are major changes and upgrade to the OS which will mean devices will have a better chances of getting upgrades as then the developement cost for customization of a device will be once a year
An OS update every three to six months which ensure most of the device are either not updated or when the update is about to be released the new update is already out the perfect scenario is 4 to 4,1 to 4.1.1 to 4.2 LG is still to release update for ICS for some devices, Samsung is still to release update of JB to most of its device and we have an update to JB whats worst is now we are looking upgrade to 4.2.
Every cell phone or table OEM using Android does its own customization to the OS and then there are some locked phones in the US so for them to release a new version they need to customize it first which will have a cost involved and now with these recent sprint of updates by google I am sure most of our device will not go beyond JB some have not even gone beyond GB yet because at the end of the day these companies are here to make profit and if they end up spending more on developement then what they have earned then naturaly they will not do it.
So I feel this should rationalized to make sure the existing owners do not suffer because of this flawed update policy of Google devices
Google OS updates are a total mess. I like how apple do it.
Sent from my GT-N8010 using xda premium
Agreed with you the updates are making life of existing owners misreble hell I cannot afford to upgrade my cell every six months or even a year and a tablet for a couple of years because I am from India do not earn that much and secondly we have to buy outright no contracts so for me this is worst thing to happen My LG optimus 2x is still not being updated to ICS and ICS is already obsolute
samir_a said:
Agreed with you the updates are making life of existing owners misreble hell I cannot afford to upgrade my cell every six months or even a year and a tablet for a couple of years because I am from India do not earn that much and secondly we have to buy outright no contracts so for me this is worst thing to happen My LG optimus 2x is still not being updated to ICS and ICS is already obsolute
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Click to collapse
You are right, even there are Samsung tablets in some regions haven't got ics and now Google is releasing 4.2, I have abad feeling from my experience with Samsung tablets that we are not going to get any updates after jellybean
Sent from my X10S using xda app-developers app
To be frank you cannot blame Samsung or for that matter any other manufacturer because these devices are highly customized and for every new version they have do develope the ROM which involves cost naturally even if you are in business you will not spend on developement when the revenue generated from it is surpased by cost of developement
The answer is yes. Stalling leads to less innovation. Besides, the next Jellybean update is not a huge one. This is why I will get a Nexus Phone, because of the updates. As for tha tablet, I can live a little while not having the latest OS.
Google's release planning outwardly looks like it’s being run by a bunch of kids. "Ooh, ooh, we should change how screen orientation works, let's push it out!" There is absolutely no reason they should be pushing out major updates more than twice a year with once a year being ideal. Minor maintenance updates that don’t affect things the manufacturers have written should be pushed out quarterly. The way updates normally work you need to spend as much time considering the impact to your installed base as you do to newer devices. With a set release schedule all those involved know if you want something changed or improved you've got to have it blessed and ready by the revision date. If not, you wait for the next. It's clear they could care less about their installed base. And Nexus devices aren't the answer as they represent less than 5% of Android phones sold. The fragmentation this creates helps no one - customers, manufacturers, app developers, and resellers. And if people have to buy new phones to keep up with the latest Google OS they'll get tired of it eventually and the next new phone they buy could be W8 or iOS. We're Android fans and are loyal. The general populous less so.
This is absolutely unforgivable and is going to come back and bite Google in the ass no matter how many Nexi they create.
With the exception of ^^ Jonphinguyen7, you guys have it completely wrong.
If you prefer Apple, go to Apple, have "fun" but Google keeps up with all updates just like Apple.
We have Android devices [by Samsung, HTC, Motorola, etc].
You want the real Google experience, get a Google device [Nexus].
Updates are NOT that fast either.
Android 3.x Honeycomb -- Feb 2011
Android 4.0.x Ice Cream Sandwich -- Oct 2011
Android 4.1.x Jelly Bean -- July 2012
Blame the lack of updates on the manufacturer.
That's what we get into when we decide to go with a Galaxy Device... i thought everyone knew.
HG! said:
With the exception of ^^ Jonphinguyen7, you guys have it completely wrong.
If you prefer Apple, go to Apple, have "fun" but Google keeps up with all updates just like Apple.
We have Android devices [by Samsung, HTC, Motorola, etc].
You want the real Google experience, get a Google device [Nexus].
Updates are NOT that fast either.
Android 3.x Honeycomb -- Feb 2011
Android 4.0.x Ice Cream Sandwich -- Oct 2011
Android 4.1.x Jelly Bean -- July 2012
Blame the lack of updates on the manufacturer.
That's what we get into when we decide to go with a Galaxy Device... i thought everyone knew.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're missing the point completely by assuming your attitude is shared by the majority of phone buyers. Android can't succeed without carrier and manufacturer support. Even Nexus phones on VZW, the biggest carrier in the U.S. and one of the top five in the world, are a train wreck because they use CDMA. Carrier networks while theoretically based on the same technology all have different tweaks that require changes in the radio settings. A generic Nexus device, even on GSM, has problems on certain networks which is why the carrier-sold GN's come in so many different versions. And those carrier GN’s don’t receive updates when Google pushes them out creating the same update frustration for their owners that we’re discussing for the Note.
With 90% of phones sold in the U.S. kept an average of 15 months and subsidized by carriers there is nothing Google can do with its Nexus line that is going to influence the mainstream phone buyer. In market research that's been done those same people also like the features that TouchWiz and Sense provide which is why Samsung and HTC spend so much time and money on their UIs. Enthusiasts like us make up 5% of phone buyers. If Google captures 100% of us and 10% of the rest it's a major fail and a great opportunity for iOS and W8. Google's the "tail," not the "dog" and with Samsung, HTC, Nokia, and Huawei jumping on the W8 band wagon so quickly and heavily you have to ask yourself “why?”
Google's lack of attention to the partners it needs for Android to succeed (carriers, manufacturers) and customers using their OS can't end well when there are viable alternatives like iOS and W8 available from competitors with resources as ample as Google's. The mobile race is in its infancy and anyone can still win and Google needs friends more than they need Key Lime Pie.
This is what Nexus looks like behind the scenes...
Well said also we need to remember Google Nexus devices are again built in partnership unlike Iphone which means they a dependent of someone for the hardware something I find strange and again show how missmanged things are at google is they own motorola but they are not building their flagship nexus devices instead samsung and lg are doing which makes no business sense as it tells that google does not have confidence that moto can build nexus devices if that is the case then why did they buy it. Google needs to understand updates are great but they are useless if they cannot reach majority of their customer base.
HG! said:
With the exception of ^^ Jonphinguyen7, you guys have it completely wrong.
If you prefer Apple, go to Apple, have "fun" but Google keeps up with all updates just like Apple.
We have Android devices [by Samsung, HTC, Motorola, etc].
You want the real Google experience, get a Google device [Nexus].
Updates are NOT that fast either.
Android 3.x Honeycomb -- Feb 2011
Android 4.0.x Ice Cream Sandwich -- Oct 2011
Android 4.1.x Jelly Bean -- July 2012
Blame the lack of updates on the manufacturer.
That's what we get into when we decide to go with a Galaxy Device... i thought everyone knew.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What you are describing is people who are using unlcoked/unsubsidized GN phones and their numbers are really small compared to the rest of the Android owners. As Barry pointed out, GN phones that are sold by the carriers are not any different when it comes to receiving updates. With this perspective, the people who are enjoying the "real Google experience", which brings frequent updates, is a tiny fraction of their target market, and releasing major updates so often only frustrates both manufacturers and the carriers (at least in the US), not to mention the owners of Android phones/tablets. Just take a look at any carrier-specific forums few days after the release of Android updates and see the slurry of angry comments asking for "where's my update? I'm never buying a Samsung phone/tablet again, etc, etc".
Keep in mind that the relationship between Samsung, HTC, LG, etc. with Google has been based on a "well, there's no other alternative to iOS in the mobile world" argument. Nokia has recently released Windows phones that were received very well as an alternative but couldn't capture significant market share partly due to OS limitations and the "novelty factor". Samsung and HTC had Windows phones before, but none of them were any major players compared to Android or iOS. I don't remember seeing a single commercial touting any Windows phones with the exception of Nokia's recent offerings. Based on what's been published over the years, Google's treatment of this relationship and the fragmentation that it generates with every release have not been received very well by the manufacturers. Like it or not, W8 is designed with mobile platforms in mind first, followed by desktop computing.
As pointed out, the manufacturers of Android devices are not only making W8 tablets, but also many W8 phones, now. Since many people in the US are more familiar with Samsung, HTC and LG, compared to Nokia or Sony Ericsson, the availability of W8 phones will most likely take people away from prospective Android buyers rather than Apple customers. The part of the success of Apple is the unity, integrity and the similarities between MacOS and iOS. In a perfect world, I wouldn't mind using W8 on my desktop, laptop (via bootcamp), tablet and phone (if this happens, I'll be buying a small Android tablet; I'm nostalgic). This is what MS is hoping/planning for, and we'll see how well that could be executed over the next 3-6 months.
If W8 tablets/phones don't generate enough excitement, then we're stuck with Android and Google's further fragmentation. Luckily, Samsung adds a lot more on top of the "plain" Android to keep us happy. I've used my son's Nexus 7 for about a month now, and every single time, I find myself looking for certain components of the TW interface that I'm accustomed to from my Note 10.1. Therefore, I don't see myself buying any Nexus device in the future, but I hope they do well. If the analysts are correct, then Google may be the only manufacturer of high-end Android tablets in the future.
tenderidol said:
people who are enjoying the "real Google experience", which brings frequent updates, is a tiny fraction of their target market.
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Click to collapse
And let's be honest. The "real Google experience" is a pretty basic OS tied to Google Apps, Google Music, Google Books, Google TV & Movies, and other things Google wants people to buy. Phones with overlays that integrate features and make them easier to use together are more appealing to the mainstream than having to go out to Play Store and figure out which of the dozens of different alternatives available for a specific chore is going to do what they want it to do. And out of a dozen similar apps 2/3 can be total crap and built in someone's garage. Camry's and Accord's are probably about as commoditized a car as any on the market. Yet they are consistently best sellers. The majority of phone buyers like car buyers aren't looking for a do-it-yourself project. They want something reliable, that's low maintenance, and that they know is going to work and hold up over time. And they are the ones that are going to decide whether Android, W8, or iOS is the best and most prevalent mobile OS.
And Google’s hardware division, Motorola, sending a "f-you” message to their customers by reneging on their commitment to move 2011 high-end devices to JB in violation of the Google-sponsored Open Handset Alliance’s covenants speaks volumes about what’s important to Google. If they keep putting unattainable functionality ahead of their existing customer’s experiences they are going to drive people away.
You all seem to be mistaken on what is the main question at hand. No, Google is not updating too fast, as pointed out with some dates from another poster. The reason it takes too long or never happens (our updates) is because of all the bloat and custom software put into it by manufacturers and OEM's. The "Google Experience" isn't just the main Google apps, it's the OS at it's purest, with no additional features added by manufacturers. Lastly, if you watched the Google I/O you will remember the Google Rep saying that they will be giving update source code to manufacturers six month in advance now, so that they can add all their junk onto it for (hopefully) timely updates.
^OS at its purest requires you to download a lot of 'junk' from playstore to even do basic tasks. Some of the manufacturer customization are useful.
Many of us are eagerly awaiting the arrival of Oreo to our beloved Note 5 and it's on it's way. There is already an early beta build of it for the S6 based on a new branch of LOS15 I believe. It still has a few bugs but it's bootable a few things don't yet work but the basic's are there. It can only be a matter of time before a Note 5 dev picks it up and creates a build for us.
Have patience guys we should be enjoying a little Oreo goodness soon.
My source for this news is here - https://forum.xda-developers.com/ga...nt/g92xx-android-o-samsung-galaxy-s6-t3663901
I just wish it wasn't Samsung based.
I read on samobile that the note 5 isn't getting Android 8.
Sent from my GT-N5120 using Tapatalk
No word officially from Samsung yet but it is likely that Samobile is correct and we wont be getting an Oreo upgrade from Samsung. While that is very disappointing it's not the end of the road for the Note 5. I'm sure there will be rom's ported from devices that do get upgrades and source built rom's too. Samsung does not care about us but luckily for us XDA has teams of talented developers who do care. One way or other we will be enjoying Oreo goodness we just need to be patient till it happens.
For reference.
https://www.sammobile.com/samsung-galaxy-android-8-o-update
Note 5 already gone through two major OS update. so if not mistaken, we will miss the Oreo update. Our only hope is custom rom porting.
edwardsiow said:
Note 5 already gone through two major OS update. so if not mistaken, we will miss the Oreo update. Our only hope is custom rom porting.
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Click to collapse
Which is either unlikely or very unstable given the state of AOSP development for our devices
Im so glad i didn't sell my Nexus 6P Just upgraded to Orem Fully rooted Goodbye Note 5 you wont be missed
izou1838 said:
Im so glad i didn't sell my Nexus 6P Just upgraded to Orem Fully rooted Goodbye Note 5 you wont be missed
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I got a full refund from Google for the early shutdown issue. Extremely happy with samsung oreo isn't a huge leap forward I can wait.
AndrewM3 said:
I got a full refund from Google for the early shutdown issue. Extremely happy with samsung oreo isn't a huge leap forward I can wait.
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8.0 is a big deal (compared to prev updates) battery wise, Data and managing apps is much better.
My main thing is the battery which has almost doubled, specially on standby bringing new life to this old phone I didn't care for
Anyone else bothered that a barely 2 year old phone is getting ditched by Samsung? Are we going to just accept companies obsoleting phones after 2 years? I'm not one for ROMs and rooting really so I don't want to hear about how Oreo is coming in that sense to the Note 5. Samsung should put Oreo together and release it for the Note 5. And if they can't then I'm not buying Samsung anymore. I don't care if they don't care. Phones should have a minimum of 5 year support at least for security updates. No reason why the Note 5 can't handle Oreo.
tech15 said:
Anyone else bothered that a barely 2 year old phone is getting ditched by Samsung? Are we going to just accept companies obsoleting phones after 2 years? I'm not one for ROMs and rooting really so I don't want to hear about how Oreo is coming in that sense to the Note 5. Samsung should put Oreo together and release it for the Note 5. And if they can't then I'm not buying Samsung anymore. I don't care if they don't care. Phones should have a minimum of 5 year support at least for security updates. No reason why the Note 5 can't handle Oreo.
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I agree whole heartedly with what your saying there phones n tablets etc should get more than 2 years support before being abandoned. The Note 5 is more than capable of running Oreo without a problem. But sadly Samsung will never give it to us we will now only get security updates no further OS updates.
Samsung's short sighted view is if u want the latest android OS buy a new phone every 2 years to get it. Yes I know they are in the business to make money but seriously they need to understand that us regular customers can't afford to replace perfectly good devices every couple of years and their corporate customers are unlikely to do so either.
I read somewhere that Samsung wants to get more of the corporate and government contracts that Apple enjoys for themselves and become as rich as Apple.
But Apple not only has nice hardware and the security that corporations and governments want they also support their devices for 4-5 years and that is a big factor in that market as well as the consumer market.
Until the high up's in Samsung grasp that concept and treat all it's customers better they will never have as much success as Apple enjoys. They seem content with things as they are and not caring a damn how many customers they upset and cause to stop buying their products because for every customer who leaves them there are millions more to replace them. The concept of gaining more customers while keeping existing customers happy by treating them right seems to be an alien concept to Samsung. Their attitude is we WILL do whatever we want in the pursuit of profit and to hell with those who don't like it there are many more to replace you.
I too have decided that I am no longer prepared to be treated like this by Samsung and my Note 5 will be the last product of theirs i buy. The sad thing is they build great hardware but their attitude towards customers seriously sucks and their short sighted profit model is unlikely to change any time soon.
RemusW said:
I agree whole heartedly with what your saying there phones n tablets etc should get more than 2 years support before being abandoned... etc etc more fluff etc ...their short sighted profit model is unlikely to change any time soon.
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Funny you should pick on Samsung out of all of the Android manufacturers; nearly all of them support their devices for only two years, even Google. So before you start complaining about how profit-greedy a company is, just remember that the company that *owns* Android doesn't even care to offer support for older devices. Also laughable that Google should make fun of Apple for ditching the headphone jack and look what they're doing with the Pixel 2. Pick a manufacturer, any manufacturer. You're not going to get the support you're looking for unless you switch to Apple.
BlockOfDynamite said:
Funny you should pick on Samsung out of all of the Android manufacturers; nearly all of them support their devices for only two years, even Google. So before you start complaining about how profit-greedy a company is, just remember that the company that *owns* Android doesn't even care to offer support for older devices. Also laughable that Google should make fun of Apple for ditching the headphone jack and look what they're doing with the Pixel 2. Pick a manufacturer, any manufacturer. You're not going to get the support you're looking for unless you switch to Apple.
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You are correct most manufacturers do the same things but Samsung has reached the position of being the largest supplier of android phones on the planet and from that position of strength they lead and influence all the smaller players bellow them. If Samsung began to change it's attitude towards customers and treated them better then many of the smaller players would follow.
As for Google they don't make hardware only software the phones bearing the Google name are made by other phone manufacturers and again it's those manufacturers who dictate and control how long a phone is supported. Now Google could use it's licencing muscle to make the manufacturers behave better towards their customers and give better support but I don't know why they don't.
Android is open source true but the Android logo and Android OS version logo's are not they are copyright of Google and if any manufacturer wants to sell a phone with android on it they must comply with licencing terms and conditions set by Google. Now some of those conditions could be that manufacturers must give better support and for longer or that they must make available to the development communities the information needed to carry on support when the manufacturer no longer wants to do so. They could release information on things like drivers needed to interface with the hardware or better compatibility with the SOC's. No one is asking for the source codes to their whiz bang UI skins many don't like them and we certainly don't need them.
Google could use their position to make things better for everyone but I really don't know why they don't.
BlockOfDynamite said:
Funny you should pick on Samsung out of all of the Android manufacturers; nearly all of them support their devices for only two years, even Google. So before you start complaining about how profit-greedy a company is, just remember that the company that *owns* Android doesn't even care to offer support for older devices. Also laughable that Google should make fun of Apple for ditching the headphone jack and look what they're doing with the Pixel 2. Pick a manufacturer, any manufacturer. You're not going to get the support you're looking for unless you switch to Apple.
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I know you're not talking directly to me but the reason I chimed in on this thread is because I have a Samsung. I've also had LG too and they're in the same boat with not updating their phones. Also One Plus and Motorola. I call all of them out but particularly focused on Samsung since I own a Note 5. That's all.
Yeah it sucks..I own a note 8... Really it's not a big update. They made a great phone with the note 5.
me_ashman said:
Yeah it sucks..I own a note 8... Really it's not a big update. They made a great phone with the note 5.
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Dang really? Note 8 looks awesome. You're saying I'm not missing much by having a 5 still?
It's a nice phone. But the camera isn't better.. The front camera is worse in my opinion. Good screen and the size isn't much different. Slimmer but taller. Speed wise they are the same. Note 5 is just as snappy and fluid as the note 8
"before a Note 5 dev picks it up and creates a build for us."
So no one?
Porcupineomg said:
"before a Note 5 dev picks it up and creates a build for us."
So no one?
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No doubt there will be a build but it's no good if you're using the tap and pay option
Well, the device will only get up to Android 12.
9to5Google: Opinion: Samsung can’t justify $1,400 prices when major OS updates are limited to 2 years.
https://9to5google.com/2020/03/04/samsung-os-updates-problem/
By buying an Android device, you must already expect shorter software support, the longest support I know is up to 3 years (Pixels and OnePlus). 2 years with 2 major OS upgrade is already lucky, others in the mid and low range tier is usually 1 year and is super lucky enough if they get one major OS upgrade.
king3opobn said:
Well, the device will only get up to Android 12.
9to5Google: Opinion: Samsung can’t justify $1,400 prices when major OS updates are limited to 2 years.
https://9to5google.com/2020/03/04/samsung-os-updates-problem/
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Then don't buy it. Two years of OS feature updates and three (total) of security updates isn't terrible. That's less than $40 a month, or what many pay for coffee or video games a month. If phones are your hobby or your job, it's not that expensive compared to what others spend on their hobbies.
9to5 Google only recommend Pixel phones and some of them use iPhone full time, so I don't take this very seriously.
As far as Android 12 goes, yeah, another year of update would have been great but I never keep phones for a full year and most people upgrade either yearly or every 2 years... However, for a $1400 ultra phone users should get more than we get on other phones.
This phone is the beast everyone has been asking for for years. It should be expensive. 2 major updates for a phone is average if not above unless you have an iphone. I've had the ultra for 2 days and fully expected to return it and keep my p4xl but I think I'm hooked. It is awesome. The buds came today and they are great. I won't even try to describe them - need to try for yourself. It isn't for everyone but it is some good stuff.
le0.br4zuc4 said:
9to5 Google only recommend Pixel phones and some of them use iPhone full time, so I don't take this very seriously.
As far as Android 12 goes, yeah, another year of update would have been great but I never keep phones for a full year and most people upgrade either yearly or every 2 years... However, for a $1400 ultra phone users should get more than we get on other phones.
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They used to update more than just 2 Android versions, 11 is almost out and 12 will be coming qiickly after that. 9to5 is not the only source, it was an official Samsung announcement and many news sites are taking about it,
https://www.androidcentral.com/samsungs-2020-flagships-will-only-get-major-updates-till-android-12
_Dennis_ said:
Then don't buy it. Two years of OS feature updates and three (total) of security updates isn't terrible. That's less than $40 a month, or what many pay for coffee or video games a month. If phones are your hobby or your job, it's not that expensive compared to what others spend on their hobbies.
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Ok, i didn't ask you what i should do.
It's pretty much planned obselesence at its finest, most companies do it as a business strategy to get more money. It's scummy, but it is what it is when you live in a capitalist society.
As for apple supporting up to 5 years, I doubt that's hard for them considering iOS 13 design looks the same as iOS 7, just icon changes, control center and notification center UI changes. If anything, their yearly updates are incremental at best.
Whereas if you compare Android in the past 6 years, it has come very with major changes every year.
1. If you're a techie buying an Ultra, you'll probably replace the phone before Android 13.
2. You know this before buying one. If updates are that important, you could buy a Pixel or iPhone.
3. Android updates aren't game changing anymore. Each year, updates become like bug fixes and battery tweaks than anything else. Until a major visual overhaul is done, there's little to gain.
aroy97 said:
It's pretty much planned obselesence at its finest, most companies do it as a business strategy to get more money. It's scummy, but it is what it is when you live in a capitalist society.
As for apple supporting up to 5 years, I doubt that's hard for them considering iOS 13 design looks the same as iOS 7, just icon changes, control center and notification center UI changes. If anything, their yearly updates are incremental at best.
Whereas if you compare Android in the past 6 years, it has come very with major changes every year.
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Additionally, an OS update to a device that has neither the RAM or the storage to effectively run modern apps is pretty pointless unless you are a completely casual user anyway. You can limp along with basic apps on a 5-year-old iPhone, and there are plenty of people out there who that's good enough for them. A lot of families hand their old phones down through their kids and older relatives, which is pretty much the only reason Apple does this - it spreads out their user base to new people who buy services and hardware later. Remember, they make license money on even a new lightning cable.
FWIW to the OP, Samsung is still doing quarterly security updates on the Galaxy S7 as of this post, so you may not be getting a new OS update, but they are NOT abandoning their flagship devices.
king3opobn said:
Ok, i didn't ask you what i should do.
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And I didn't ask you to pay a comment in the forums about things we all already know.
Guess we can assume that because this is an open forum we can both post whatever we want as long as it is within the rules, yeah?
_Dennis_ said:
And I didn't ask you to pay a comment in the forums about things we all already know.
Guess we can assume that because this is an open forum we can both post whatever we want as long as it is within the rules, yeah?
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Nobody asked you to click in this post and read. This is new news for Samsung, so don't BS that you already knew....and this is the news section, m***n.
So instead of 3 versions of Android, as usual from Samsung, we are only getting 2 more upgrades from now on. International version sounds better for me right now.
king3opobn said:
Nobody asked you to click in this post and read. This is new news for Samsung, so don't BS that you already knew....and this is the news section, m***n.
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How is 2 years updates plus an extra year of security update new news?
https://androidcommunity.com/samsun...r-update-policy-for-new-smartphones-20200305/
See, will not change? Nothing new.
From last year
https://www.sammobile.com/samsung/android-10-update
So try again.
As for clicking, no one forced you to read or respond to my post either, it goes both ways.
---------- Post added at 09:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:23 PM ----------
king3opobn said:
So instead of 3 versions of Android, as usual from Samsung, we are only getting 2 more upgrades from now on. International version sounds better for me right now.
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It's always been 2 major version updates.
No, the usual is many more updats than 2, just like s7 released with Android 6, and got Android 9
News that Android 8 is not getting Android 10 is part of this same change that Samsung is making.
king3opobn said:
No, the usual is many more updats than 2, just like s7 released with Android 6, and got Android 9
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Are you sure the S7 received Android 9 (Pie)? Because your picture only shows up to Android 8 (Oreo) and this questions if it will get 9 (https://www.gottabemobile.com/5-things-to-know-about-the-galaxy-s7-android-pie-update/amp/)
He (intentionally?) confused the Android version with Samsung Experience version...
The S7 never made it beyond Android 8 and won't receive any further OS upgrade.
king3opobn said:
Well, the device will only get up to Android 12.
9to5Google: Opinion: Samsung can’t justify $1,400 prices when major OS updates are limited to 2 years.
https://9to5google.com/2020/03/04/samsung-os-updates-problem/
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Do you keep a phone got more than two years or so you upgrade? I'd say about 90% of people upgrade, certainly the ones on XDA
who keeps their flagship for more than 2 years?!