Database Users

Sorry..but I find the Athena lacking...

? Video Playback format: H.263, MPEG4, & WMV
? 5~8 fps @ VGA decoding for H.263 & MPEG4
? Min. 30 fps @ QVGA decoding for H.263 & MPEG4
? Combined Bit Rate: 64Kbps (playback)
? Video scaling up to full VGA display
This info was taken directly from the Service manual Mike Channon so kindly provided us with. Thanks again.
However, if this info is anything to go buy, we are in serious trouble. Can anyone see something between the lines that I'm missing here?
Apparently WMP supports the Imageon Hardware, right? But at what fps for VGA encoded vids? 5 ~ 8 fps?
Are they nuts!! Or am I?? No wonder the Athena can't handle VGA vids. thus re-emphasizing the absolute need for the hardware decoder (Imageon), to help or even better, take over the processing/decoding of the vids.
This is not good news!
Combined bit rate of 64 kbps!! OK that does it, they are nuts! Should have trusted my instincts from the beginning. If a device can only record with a limited bitrate and resolution for video, that's indicative of its decoding abilities too.
Like I said QVGA resolution of 320x240 or even slightly higher @ 480x320 will return satisfactory results, but anything above that will strain the Athena's resources.
And yes, whilst using TCPMP or even WMP10 are able to cope with more than what the service manual states, it doesn't look like it's supposed to.
Lastly, I think encoding AMR Audio and MPEG4 H.263 (ASP - NOT H.264 AVC) might yield better performance in higher resolution videos, as this is supposedly supported by the Imageon hardware decoder.
I'm seriously NOT impressed. Its about time that HTC the world leaders in PPC manufacturing started thinking about making devices with a dedicated 3D/Video accelerator to completely alleviate the strain of the main CPU when it comes to 3D Graphics rendering (whether for TomTom or Games) or Video playback.
The soon to be released HTC Kaiser is a step in the right direction with its Qualcomm 7200 dual-processor (one for phone and one exclusively for applications), but it's still not good enough.
The o2 Flame had the right idea with its Nvidia 3D Mobile CPU and 520 MHz CPU, but apparently it doesn't work as well as expected.
The Dell x51v still outperforms the Athena by an embarrassingly large margin for video playback and their 2700 3D processor still outperforms every other PDA ever made!! If only they had a Phone application to boot, I'd have one of them.
I get it now, the Athena and these new devices coming out every five minutes are very good, but being an all-in-one solution was never the goal of the manufacturers now was it?
It's always been about the money and always will be.
I'd love to get a group of developers, programers and hardware gurus together (with specialist knowledge) and improve on the Athena, because I think it is the best base model PPC to take things to another level, but even if I had the cash....the likes of HTC would bury us in a second and release something that would blow our efforts so far out of the water before we could manufacture the prototype.LoL
At least it would kick start these greedy companies to start giving us end users what is already available, but combine it into one device...as opposed to giving us snippets of new technology one device after another.
Just my 2 cents worth.

I still think that the biggest disappointment is that ATI won't tell "us" how to use the hardware decoder...
The figures in the service manual could just be a result of HTC not testing the video support fully...
And after all: Its main purpose is not to be a device for playing video. That's just a bonus...

the joke is that although the athena can be made to play decent xvids after lots of tweaking , my 2 year old PSP blows it away for reliabilty
(lip synch comes to mind) and the picture quality matches and often betters it esp at the higher PMP and AVC resolutions.
I Think THE only true Way forward is the UMPC route I.e. Shift type device. Sadly it appears the idiots have dropped VOICE and GPRS from this machine

spacecat said:
the joke is that although the athena can be made to play decent xvids after lots of tweaking , my 2 year old PSP blows it away for reliabilty
(lip synch comes to mind) and the picture quality matches and often betters it esp at the higher PMP and AVC resolutions.
I Think THE only true Way forward is the UMPC route I.e. Shift type device. Sadly it appears the idiots have dropped VOICE and GPRS from this machine
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Agree with you totally on this spacecat. The PSP's 16million pixel screen is the nuts and it's hard to find any pixelation in movie playback even at QVGA encoded vids.
@ wgary. I hear you, but its not only business users they should aim these devices at. Internet and e-mail is now so commonplace as well as mobile phone technology, that they should be aiming at a wider audience.
It wouldn't surprise me if Sony made more sales with the PSP than HTC with their last 5 devices! Why? because Sony tries to give people what they want, whilst WM devices give us what we need. Just wish these tech giants would learn from each other and bring us true 'Ultimate' devices based on all these meta-technologies.
Blow the retail cost to the consumer. People will always buy what they want and there will always be those who can afford it and those that can't just at the minute. I'm happy enough to fall into the latter category as long as the tech develops into this area.

mackaby007 said:
Agree with you totally on this spacecat. The PSP's 16million pixel screen is the nuts and it's hard to find any pixelation in movie playback even at QVGA encoded vids.
@ wgary. I hear you, but its not only business users they should aim these devices at. Internet and e-mail is now so commonplace as well as mobile phone technology, that they should be aiming at a wider audience.
It wouldn't surprise me if Sony made more sales with the PSP than HTC with their last 5 devices! Why? because Sony tries to give people what they want, whilst WM devices give us what we need. Just wish these tech giants would learn from each other and bring us true 'Ultimate' devices based on all these meta-technologies.
Blow the retail cost to the consumer. People will always buy what they want and there will always be those who can afford it and those that can't just at the minute. I'm happy enough to fall into the latter category as long as the tech develops into this area.
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i wanted a cheaper PS3...sony never gave me that

Mackaby007,
I find it difficult to comprehend your disappointment.
You're getting too technical into this. Just enjoy watching the excellent movie quality of this device instead of counting the fps, would you? This is not a home theatre system for goodness sake. Also, the service manual may be just talking about the minimum critieria, rather than the actual performance, which could differ from unit to unit, just like some unit is able to overclock better than the others but officially set at a lower rate.
Look at the video that you posted. It is absolutely amazing. It is still not good enough, I think you're being too picky. Look at the 90% full, not 10% empty in this glass!

eaglesteve said:
Mackaby007,
I find it difficult to comprehend your disappointment.
You're getting too technical into this. Just enjoy watching the excellent movie quality of this device instead of counting the fps, would you? This is not a home theatre system for goodness sake. Also, the service manual may be just talking about the minimum critieria, rather than the actual performance, which could differ from unit to unit, just like some unit is able to overclock better than the others but officially set at a lower rate.
Look at the video that you posted. It is absolutely amazing. It is still not good enough, I think you're being too picky. Look at the 90% full, not 10% empty in this glass!
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for around £650 for what is basically a phone with extras expectations are justifiably HIGH!
you would think the machine could at least run movies at its OWN full resolution wouldnt you? I love my Athena in many ways but it still has some unjustifable issues, especially as it has a ATI chip that should be able to run movies decently an without lip synch errors
It shouldnt be such HARD work

I still blame ATI for most of our video problems.
However, I am now (after mackaboy helped me out) more satisfied with my Athena as a video device than I am with my Archos AV420 (which is a dedicated video-playing device). The screen on the Athena is bigger, and it supports more formats.

For me, size and shape of the screen and the fact that it is part of a all encompassing device, is far far more important than whether of not it drop a frame. In most cases, the source of my download is already very far from perfect, so it makes no sense to think about frame drop. I could not tell if there is any frame drop in most cases, as they look so perfect to me already. Being too concerned with that would only kill your enjoyment If I am after real good quality video and sound, I would'nt be watching it on this device. I'll be using my home theatre system and treat my senses with real subwolfer, AC-3 sound effect, and real high definition pictures. This is not to say that I accept any quality movies on the device. I'm saying that it is more than adequate already.

eaglesteve said:
For me, size and shape of the screen and the fact that it is part of a all encompassing device, is far far more important than whether of not it drop a frame. In most cases, the source of my download is already very far from perfect, so it makes no sense to think about frame drop. I could not tell if there is any frame drop in most cases, as they look so perfect to me already. Being too concerned with that would only kill your enjoyment If I am after real good quality video and sound, I would'nt be watching it on this device. I'll be using my home theatre system and treat my senses with real subwolfer, AC-3 sound effect, and real high definition pictures. This is not to say that I accept any quality movies on the device. I'm saying that it is more than adequate already.
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as I said my psp can blow it away for quality and reliabilty and it costs
only 100 pounds and is over 2 years old. its not good enough

OK guys let's not get into an argument, we are all just expressing our opinions and in some cases, venting as I didn't get what was advertised on the box and I paid heavily to have this unit. Thanks spacecat, you summed it up perfectly.
Moskus, your right too. It is down to the ATI chip, but the Hermes got fixed through the AKU 3.5 ROM etc with some tweaks, I think we'll get there in the end.
@eaglesteve. Whilst I respect your right to express your views and sometimes agree with them too, I simply disagree with you on this. Spacecat really hit the nail on the head in his post about cost of device vs incapability to play vis at its own resolution.
Let's not get it twisted either, just because these devices were aimed at mostly business people on the move etc.....the software certainly isn't.
Personally, my Athena is my personal all-in-one Mobile-communication/GPS entertainment System. That is why I bought it, because the specs and HTC's own write up advertised it as such. As it's not performing to expectation (only in this video department), I am disappointed eaglesteve. It is a main part of why I bought it and relates to what I do for a living. Not being picky mate.
Anyway, no offense taken. Just want to clarify why I'm always on about video playback. I'm hoping to hear back from Betaboy about what is really needed from ATI/AMD so maybe us paying customers can put a petition together or use whatever resources we have as a community to put pressure on either HTC or ATI/AMD to give us the needed info so Corecodec or another developer can solve this once and for all.
As Moskus always says, it is down to the Imageon Chip.
Peace my friends.

I don't really understand what all the fuss is about re video playback on the Athena. I have a very large collection of divx and xvid movies and TV series, mostly downloaded from torrents. I simply download them, copy to the microdrive, and watch them (using tcpmp) with no problems. The picture is crystal clear, no stuttering, and I have no problems with the audio lagging.
I can't tell you about framerates or benchmarks as I've never needed to tweak TCPMP, it always looks fine.
So there is at least one satisfied customer re videos on the Athena - me!

Each to their I guess, but I'm plodding on.
Pantaloonie said:
I don't really understand what all the fuss is about re video playback on the Athena. I have a very large collection of divx and xvid movies and TV series, mostly downloaded from torrents. I simply download them, copy to the microdrive, and watch them (using tcpmp) with no problems. The picture is crystal clear, no stuttering, and I have no problems with the audio lagging.
I can't tell you about framerates or benchmarks as I've never needed to tweak TCPMP, it always looks fine.
So there is at least one satisfied customer re videos on the Athena - me!
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Happy for you Some of us are perfectionists though, and I've seen 640x480 VGA encoded vids from High def sources and believe me its as good to look at as High Def on a top end PC screen. The detail you see changes your viewing pleasure...it's like the difference between DVD's and Ultra High def in a mobile screen.
All those who have not experienced this quality wouldn't really appreciate what I'm talking about.
Nothing in life is perfect, but striving for perfection and falling short of it is still better than accepting what we already have.
Isn't that how progress works? It certainly does for me and I've never been displeased with my results after I've giving it my best.
If you're happy with what you have, then really, that is great and you are a lucky man/woman, but I always like to push the boat out that little bit more.
Can't remember who just posted to this effect about prefering the Athena to their dedicated Archos, but that is very pleasing to hear and quite encouraging.
P.S. I had perfect HQ vids on a 200 MHz Omap based WM5 QVGA device with no issues at all! Why is it so unreasonable for me to want the same from a 624 MHz CPU with a Video accelerator on a VGA screen? hmmm?

mackaby007,
You are like an ungrateful mad scientist Just kidding, but I am with you on this and I do understand what you are saying. Let me try to keep it short and sweet.
You also made an excellent point that a lot people might have missed. We can't all be experts and our development cycles are different. Some of us set higher expectations and achieve greater goals which is the reason why there are not too many Bill Gates in the world.
Nonetheless, I would like to see better picture too because this device was more expensive than my PS3 which I enjoy watching BD-DVD movies on a 70'' 1080P TV.

yep i agree my universal was far superior for playing vids and the keyboard was better but ths device is amazing and untill the htc x9500 is released im happy in general. seams strange to take a step back instead of forward for improvements but its all down to money and marketing the upcoming shift and x9500 are basicly the same device under the hood just a different exterior shell but they disable the voice on the shift and enable it on the x9500 just so they can sell the same device twice but repackaged.

spzero said:
yep i agree my universal was far superior for playing vids and the keyboard was better but ths device is amazing and untill the htc x9500 is released im happy in general. seams strange to take a step back instead of forward for improvements but its all down to money and marketing the upcoming shift and x9500 are basicly the same device under the hood just a different exterior shell but they disable the voice on the shift and enable it on the x9500 just so they can sell the same device twice but repackaged.
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Interesting....never heard of the x9500.

lpsi2000 said:
mackaby007,
You are like an ungrateful mad scientist Just kidding, but I am with you on this and I do understand what you are saying. Let me try to keep it short and sweet.
You also made an excellent point that a lot people might have missed. We can't all be experts and our development cycles are different. Some of us set higher expectations and achieve greater goals which is the reason why there are not too many Bill Gates in the world.
Nonetheless, I would like to see better picture too because this device was more expensive than my PS3 which I enjoy watching BD-DVD movies on a 70'' 1080P TV.
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Click to collapse
Well said and it was short and to the point.

basically it comes down to bang for buck.
A £650 machine that is outclassed by a 2 year old machine at £100 does not offer bang for buck in terms of Video playback.
I really enjoy my Ameo esp the big screen for HSDPA surfing, streaming my live TV and videos from my home PC via Orb, reading books via pdf,music, etc etc
but you would think if it has a 640x480 screen and they promote this fact bigstyle then it should be able to display video at this resolution
I would be very interested in a shift type device as long as it also has Phone functionality, .............................
hmmm will it suppport 800x600 resolution video ..oh dear

spzero said:
yep i agree my universal was far superior for playing vids and the keyboard was better but ths device is amazing and untill the htc x9500 is released im happy in general. seams strange to take a step back instead of forward for improvements but its all down to money and marketing the upcoming shift and x9500 are basicly the same device under the hood just a different exterior shell but they disable the voice on the shift and enable it on the x9500 just so they can sell the same device twice but repackaged.
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Click to collapse
Hi spzero,
So you mean that shift and shangrila are slightly different machine? There are conflicting news on this it seems. Some says they are the same, some say they are different. Do you have a link to your source of info please?
Thanks and cheers.

How do we delete duplicate post (by mistake)?

[INFO] Review of the Tablet

Found this on youtube - 2 parts. He reviewed the keyboard as well. Looks very well rounded. I'll be getting one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvxth_Sxfps
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEQqXi-3NpU

Ya, I've been waiting for his 2nd video. It's one of the more comprehensive reviews of this awesome device.

popophobia said:
Found this on youtube - 2 parts. He reviewed the keyboard as well. Looks very well rounded. I'll be getting one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvxth_Sxfps
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEQqXi-3NpU
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Thanks for sharing! Finally a decent review on youtube! It helps making the decision to wait it out a little bit longer. I hope he's right on the price part too!

popophobia said:
Found this on youtube - 2 parts. He reviewed the keyboard as well. Looks very well rounded. I'll be getting one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvxth_Sxfps
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEQqXi-3NpU
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Interesting how he calls it "very intuitive" when there have been people saying its sooo confusing because its not like the Ipad

Outstanding overview, thanks for the link. Except now, of course, I'm even more anxious to get one.
Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk

wynand32 said:
Outstanding overview, thanks for the link. Except now, of course, I'm even more anxious to get one.
Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk
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Haha, same here bud

great review, thanks for posting - now I really can't wait until the keyboard arrives

czm said:
great review, thanks for posting - now I really can't wait until the keyboard arrives
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This was the first time I've seen the device with the keyboard attached being used. I can definitively say that I will be buying the dock... If it ever arrives on US soil. With me not having a laptop it should prove useful.

He just posted a new video about the Polaris software.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGSfL6XjcN8

Just watched some of the first video. Shame it's so quiet. I wish google would normalise all the audio on videos uploaded to youtube. Just wanted to comment on a few things he said:
-The @Vibe app is for music and streaming radio, not for games, in the UK. Might be different for other countries.
-It's not lightweight. Lighter than other devices but its still not light.
-You get bad stuttery 1080p mkv's if theyre not encoded properly.
-That green screen camera thing is fixed in the latest firmware.
-The refresh rate of the video recording is bad. So is the fps of any video you record. Hopefully it will get fixed. It's meant to do up to 1080p @30fps.
-The playback and quality of the video streaming via Splashtop is ridiculously good as he says. I was surprised.
-He's also right about needing to have several apps to play various files. Feels odd to switch between them to play different formats but its not a problem.
Nice to see the dock in action. Cant wait to get mine.

stuntdouble said:
Shame it's so quiet. I wish google would normalise all the audio on videos uploaded to youtube.
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Just an offtopic note: normalising wouldn't help in most cases (one high peek in the whole video will make the sound very quiet even normalised). Making sound louder would in most cases require compression and limiting which is not always wanted and can't be done properly by a machine only (if you want to know more - read about loudness war and audio mastering on Wikipedia). Normalising could also be very bad for videos recorded in silence - you would hear every background noise that was recorded very loudly.
Splashtop looks very interesting. It's a shame it's only for Macs and Windows (I would like to use it on Ubuntu).

Great detailed review. Just watched both part 1 and 2 and has reassured me that this is definitely the tablet I want. All of the negatives that I read on Engadget or Techradar can't remember which it was seem to be non existent in the video as they said it lags quite noticeably behind touch which it didn't really show and looks like it's going to be a great tablet with lots of future potential. Can't wait to save up and get one which looks to be at around the time stock will be back in with all the delays lol

stuntdouble said:
Just watched some of the first video. Shame it's so quiet. I wish google would normalise all the audio on videos uploaded to youtube. Just wanted to comment on a few things he said:
-The @Vibe app is for music and streaming radio, not for games, in the UK. Might be different for other countries.
-It's not lightweight. Lighter than other devices but its still not light.
-You get bad stuttery 1080p mkv's if theyre not encoded properly.
-That green screen camera thing is fixed in the latest firmware.
-The refresh rate of the video recording is bad. So is the fps of any video you record. Hopefully it will get fixed. It's meant to do up to 1080p @30fps.
-The playback and quality of the video streaming via Splashtop is ridiculously good as he says. I was surprised.
-He's also right about needing to have several apps to play various files. Feels odd to switch between them to play different formats but its not a problem.
Nice to see the dock in action. Cant wait to get mine.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi, Sorry, I should have adjust the volume of the video before I uploaded it, thanks for pointing that out.
@Vibe is like an entertainment center, it has Books, games, and Musics, at least that's how it is in Taiwan, not sure about other country.
and you are right, the video recording is really slow and hopefully it gets fixed soon.
Thanks for pointing out the firmware update, I've yet to update mine, will do and see if anything else is different.
Best,
andyxover

Poor Video Quality?

So I have defiantly noticed poor video quality I've tried a 720p video h.264 lord of the rings encode quality looks decent but gets so pixilatee all the time no matter what video player I use, also tried normal 480p no lag or pixilation, but quality looks sorta poor. And the grid touch is very noticiable.
Am I the only one? Or are there others seeing this... I love this tablet so much over other android and for the price its awesome. But no ips display messes with me lol.
Sent from my A500 using XDA Premium App

I have noticed the quality isn't as good as say my Iphone 3GS, Macbook Pro ( non ips screen).Apparantly it uses an AUO panel which aren't too bad; they're used in some Samsung panels but aren't as good as the one sony/samsung make.
Maybe someone with some technical knowledge here could answer it better.I am just agreeing with you. The a500 is a 6bit panel, bit disappointed in that, I was expecting 8bit.

The screen is the only disappointment I have
Sent from my A500 using XDA Premium App

I have to agree with the screen issues. Video looks completely washed out. I tested streaming through my wife's iPad and my Acer. Needless to say, for $450, it's not worth it.
I've done the whole "the screen is not so bad" thing with the gTablet but that was a much cheaper investment. This thing is $50 from the Samsung 10.1, the Toshiba Regaza 10.1 inch, and an iPad 2.
I abhor the Apple iOS but I'm hoping they open things up a bit in June. I think I'll take this Acer back next week and just wait until then all these new June tablets are released. I don't think Acer can release an update to improve the quality of the screen ala Toshiba's Resolution + tech in their tablet.
Word of advice...take micro and SD cards with video on them to the store with you so you can test these things out. Maybe a flash drive too. I spent hours looking at videos and researching to make sure this tablet would be a nice purchase. Even after owning the tablet a full day, I was happy...until I played some video with it. I'm not talking high def content. I tried watching wrestling and some soccer videos on there but the quality saddens me. Why not stick a better screen on and charge me more?

Although I see what you do when I look at mine... the pictures I look at are almost as good as my Epic SuperAMOLED phone and I thought my phone was great... so, if the pictures are great/really good and the video not so much... I think tweaking will be done to deliver better quality... this thing was rushed out and so was honeycomb... I'll give it time because I know it can only get better... besides if all you're doing is video then maybe you just need a dvd player or an archos 70 250gig I heard those screens are nice... good luck.

I wish it was that easy. I blog on my tablet which is why I was leaning towards the Asus. I game on there and that's a mixed bag on here. I do like the cameras and the flash on here.
I'd just like a tablet to do everything well. Perhaps they can fix the video quality. I'm just wondering if we'll ever get that. I've heard from 3 people on this forum that Acer's customer support sucks. They've tried to charge them each time they've called.
Hopefully we'll get some answers soon. I'm trying to hold onto it until after Google's I/O conference next week which could shed some light on any problems Honeycomb may be causing.

Just glad I kept my receipt had for about 1 week and few days but will wait and see, hopefully they will shed some light.
Sent from my A500 using XDA Premium App

The main reason I bought a tablet in the first place was because I'm a producer and I wanted something I could easily tote around as a digital portfolio for pitches -MacBook Pro isn't quite as sexy in a meeting now that the tabs are on the market. The iPad has been extremely popular with commercial agencies, but I wanted something with an HDMI output w/o having to purchase an adapter (an additional $39) and a full size USB port w/o having to purchase a camera "kit" (an additional $29) -yep, I'm cheap like that.
Anyway, imagine how upset I was when I tried to play an mp4 on the A500 and got an error message stating that the video could not be played on "this device".
Here's what I found (search via google -can't post links yet):
"3 Surprising Things About Video On Android Tablets"
And from the Android Developer's site:
"Android Supported Media Formats"
What worked for me:
• Download the latest version of 'Handbrake'
• Go to 'Preferences'>'General' and under 'Output files:' uncheck 'Use iPod /iTunes friendly (.m4v) file extension for MP4'. Close the preferences window.
• Output Settings: Normal (Default) this is the 'Baseline Profile'
• Format: MP4 file this is the container
• Video Codec: H.264 (x264)
• Under 'Quality:', 'Constant quality:' should be selected with an RF Value of 19-20 for SD and 21-22 for HD
• Go to the 'Advanced' tab and under 'Encoding'/'Maximum B-Frames:' select '0' from the dropdown menu
• Leave all other settings as they are (incl. Audio; AAC is fine) for your first attempt
Feel free to play around with the settings as you will, but don't expect a whole lot of freedom.
Hope that helps!

goalweiser said:
I wish it was that easy. I blog on my tablet which is why I was leaning towards the Asus. I game on there and that's a mixed bag on here. I do like the cameras and the flash on here.
I'd just like a tablet to do everything well. Perhaps they can fix the video quality. I'm just wondering if we'll ever get that. I've heard from 3 people on this forum that Acer's customer support sucks. They've tried to charge them each time they've called.
Hopefully we'll get some answers soon. I'm trying to hold onto it until after Google's I/O conference next week which could shed some light on any problems Honeycomb may be causing.
Click to expand...
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I'd say just take it back now. If things improve you can always buy it again as it's actually in stock.

Here's what I wrote on the whirlpool forums
So anyway, I've been testing out the screen, comparing it with my macbook pro(non ips screen) with the exact same video.I found that my macbook featured better blacks and less pixelation.One thing I noticed is the blacks on the iconia were too bright.So I checked in settings and I had the brightness on auto.
I turned it all the way down ( turned off auto brightness in settings) and tried the videos again, playing both in sync and let me say there was a huge difference now.Blacks appeared much better, and all that pixelation ( which was highlighted more with the brightness on higher) was gone! It is on par with my macbook!
The image is still fairly bright as well, it doesn't look all dark now that the brightness is turned down which is great!.
Give it a ago.

[Q] Poor Video Quality?

I just received my Google Nexus 10 yesterday. After reading all the great reviews about the video quality I must admit I was shocked how poor it was. Don't get me wrong, it isn't awful by any stretch. The detail is certainly there and there is so much detail it might actually be detriment to the product because I can pick up compression artifacts and pixelization I didn't even know was there on some of my videos. However, this really leads in to what I think the source of the problem is on this device, that is, the black level. The first video I took a look at was Ice Age since it came with the N10. If black level is off on animations they can look washed out and it certainly did in this case. My projector on a 100" screen could actually reflect a better image in my opinion. Moving over to other videos like a 1080p MKV of Battleship displayed some improvement, but the poor black levels were still there. Oh, and I should mention this was with using MX Player.
So, are others seeing something similar? Again, I'm not trying to really downplay the image entirely because the detail is certainly there, but again, I'm disappointed by the black level. Is there possibly a way to adjust it that I'm not aware of? All I can seemingly find is Brightness and that doesn't do enough. Perhaps a gamma control would help? Any guidance from others is appreciated.

U get ice age free with N10?
Sent from my Nexus 10 using XDA Premium HD app

verusevo said:
U get ice age free with N10?
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Yes.

2 posts? Troll?

Techie2012 said:
2 posts? Troll?
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Thanks for the welcome. Did people say the same about you when you had 2 posts? Trust me, your accusation is utterly ridiculous. This is simply my first Android device and this was my initial impression. I hoped that there might be some kind of workaround or fix so I simply did a Google search for a Nexus 10 forum and wound up here. As I allued to in my initial post there are plenty of things I like about the device and black level might not be a deal killer, but if there was a way to resolve it, why not pursue it?

Techie2012 said:
2 posts? Troll?
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Only 245 posts and a member since February of this year? You must clearly have very little to contribute anywhere since you don't have at least a 1k post count or year+ membership (sarcasm btw; post count and join dates means absolutely nothing in determining a person's status lol)
I believe a few others have mentioned black levels not being optimal on the N10. I myself don't really see it as a problem, but then again I rarely watch videos. I believe Contrast itself might be a better option to modify over Brightness, but I'm pretty sure Contrast isn't adjustable currently.
Possibly when Kernel development matures enough, we may be able to modify screen settings, but I don't think we're there quite yet. Maybe some video players might have an option for adjustments?

Those frequenting here have varying social skills. Be tolerant.
Suggest posting some pics of screen's black level, alongside another device used as a baseline. A thousand words and all that.
Also suggest searching Play store for "display settings" and try out the various widget/apps available.

That's seriously put me off buying this tablet now.
A poor black level can ruin video quality. I know this because my laptops black level is shocking bad, picture below.
Now I might either get a Note 10.1 or wait for something with a high res screen and a good black level.

Haha you guys are funny.
Anyway back to the original question, this device has a LCD screen, and like most LCD TVs, the black is not as black as you'd like or you would see on a PlasmaTV or Amoled screen.
If black levels are highly important to you, i'm sorry to say you bought the wrong device.

Ok, so I took a previous poster's advice and got a hold of an iPad3 with Retina Display and compared it against the N10. The difference was not as significant as I thought it might be. Ultimately, I didn't think either producing razor sharp images with inky blacks and that is because they don't my own HDTV's (LED) in my home along with my home theater projector crush both devices. Why? Well, first, I wasn't aware that the contrast ratio was so poor on all the tablet devices. Most of my other products have something like a 50,000:1 contrast ratio whereas the tablets are around 1000:1, a very big difference. Also, I'm accustomed to watching BluRays on those displays. BluRay quality just doesn't seem to exist on these tablets right now. So was I expecting too much from the N10? Yes.
Spending some time with both devices side-by-side allowed me to sort of critique both on my own terms and decide which one I like best. I'm probably an atypical user so my opinions here are my own and I don't expect others to find the same items valuable.
1. Display - the iPad wins here, but not by as much as I might have thought. Whites are more warm and not as bright on the N10 when compared to the iPad. Blacks are also better on the iPad, but I expected it to be a dramatic difference. It wasn't. I've included some images to this post that will help you see the difference a bit more. There are some images where the difference looks very pronounced, but that is the digital camera really exposing the faults of the N10 and making them appear more significant. I wouldn't say that is the case in reality. Also, something you'll notice from the images is the light leak. It is there on the N10, but not on the iPad. Too bad Samsung couldn't have done a better job here. It would have made it appear as a more quality product.
2. Form Factor - I find the form factor of the iPad better than the N10. I like to use portrait mode more often than most I think and the iPad gives you more space to work from horizontally when doing so. This makes web browsing much easier and I actually feel more cramped using the N10 to browse via landscape. I would MUCH prefer the N10 to have the iPad's shape.
3. Weight - I would have never thought 50 grams or whatever it is would make a difference, but to me it does and the N10 is a clear winner here. After handling both devices for some time I simply enjoyed holding the N10 more. The lightness made for a more enjoyable experience.
4. Rubber Backing - When I saw on this on the N10 I thought it was sort of a gimmick, but I really like it. Again, it just seems to feel more comfortable holding it.
5. Heat - I have no idea why, but the back of the iPad got pretty hot while using it. The N10 had some slight warmth, but ever since I've used it it has stayed relatively cool.
6. Speakers - The N10 really crushes the iPad here. The front two speakers are awesome and can push out good volume. Going back to the iPad with its rear mono speaker almost feels silly in comparison.
7. Web Browsing - The winner here is the iPad. Pages came up more quickly, they are easier to scroll through (only slightly), and are displayed better. In portrait mode the clear winner is the iPad since you have more horizontal space to work with, something I like.
8. Off-axis viewing - Not that you ever really need this because tablets are really made for a one person audience to be looking at the device head-on, but I did notice it. For whatever reason the iPad had a better image once you move off-axis from the device. The N10 was washed out more quickly as you moved off-axis.
9. Bugs - Oh man, Jelly Bean has them. I have essentially the base image on the N10 and I've already seen the battery information incorrect (stuck), freezes, my folders just disappearing after the device becoming frozen, and some other very quirky things. The iPad in comparison was stable. The iPad just feels a bit like driving a Lexus. It doesn't really do much to excite you, but it does what it is designed to do and does it well. The N10 is probably more like a BMW X6. Is it a sports car or an SUV? No one really knows. It does some things that are really neat, but in other categories it sort of falls apart. Just my own silly analogy.
So which will I keep. Based on all the criteria above I would say it is very close and probably a tie in my mind, but I'm leaning toward the N10. I'm not sure why, but I struggle a great deal with going to a closed environment like the iPad is. It feels boring to me and I just think I might enjoy tinkering with the N10 more. If I give it more thought I might change my mind, but for the moment this is where my head is.
I hope all this might help someone. If anyone has any questions about the comparison or the images please feel free to ask.

A lot people seem to crank the brightness even when they don't need it. The N10 with the back light turned up definitely has poor black levels but it's actually pretty decent when below 40%(more comfortable to view also)

I agree. I'm totally unimpressed by the video quality of Nexus 10. Maybe I'm doing something wrong here, but my older Galaxy Tab 2 P3100 had much better video quality than this. The colors are totally messed up and the it just seems bland and boring.
Frankly, I don't think this is an iPad killer in anyway, and I'm not an apple fanboy either. I had to download apps just to get the Volume to a reasonable level eventhough it has stereo. Wow, the ipad claims much less but delivers more, Nexus 10 claims tall but falls short.
Thinking about getting back the iPad 4 if the Nexus doesn't grow on me. Sorry, Nexus. Android has failed you :crying:

JPW1 said:
Most of my other products have something like a 50,000:1 contrast ratio whereas the tablets are around 1000:1, a very big difference.
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The 50,000:1 contrast ratio is actually dynamic contrast ratio. How dark the screen is at it's lowest brightness and how bright the screen is at it's highest brightness. It's really just a marketing gimmick.
The real static contrast ratio could be anywhere between 1000-5000:1. Not a huge difference at all.
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,23137918

Looking at your screenshots I can definitely say you have the brightness set waaaayyy to high on the Nexus 10. Turn it down and the picture will be drastically better.

And for the other little problems you have to wait some time. Most of them will be gone with the first good custom roms/kernels. The device is still brand new.

I tried both the Transformers and Ice Age films streaming from google play, and I thought the video was pretty poor. Wifi signal was strong.

Video quality from all the streaming services I've used on Android have relatively poor quality. If you are attempting to benchmark the device's fidelity then I suggest making a high bit rate rip of a Blu-Ray
The high bit rate 1080p and 1440p videos I've seen look pretty great, but I agree videos from streaming services look pretty awful in terms of both blurriness and contrast.
Also, the hardware decoders like most devices do not have as high of picture quality as some software decoder. For instance, for the same video the hw decoder will look softer than the sw decoder in MX Player

Photo quality

Say "cheese", then rate this thread to express how photos taken with the Asus ROG Phone come out. A higher rating indicates that photos offer rich color (without over-saturating), sharp detail (with all subjects in-focus), and appropriate exposure (with even lighting).
Then, drop a comment if you have anything to add!

I haven't been able to play much with the phone, since I haven't got a cover for it yet.
But in the super resolution option, the camera is using 49MP? or is it actually just upscaled resolution from the 12MP? I hope future update will bring 960fps slowmotion.

bamsemh said:
I haven't been able to play much with the phone, since I haven't got a cover for it yet.
But in the super resolution option, the camera is using 49MP? or is it actually just upscaled resolution from the 12MP? I hope future update will bring 960fps slowmotion.
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it appears that it takes multiple photos at different exposures kind of like an hdr image, but stitches them together in a way that produces an nMP x 4 resulting image, in this case 12MP x 4 = 48MP. Don't know where you got 49, is the sensor maybe like 12.2MP or something?
So anyway, its not a true 48/49MP image, but its not just an upscale either.
I'm sure updates will start rolling out in a few months, it will interesting to see what they can bring. I don't know much about asus phones, but I'ved owned a ton of asus products, and I'm sure the rog phone will at least get something cool :good:

bbmaster123 said:
it appears that it takes multiple photos at different exposures kind of like an hdr image, but stitches them together in a way that produces an nMP x 4 resulting image, in this case 12MP x 4 = 48MP. Don't know where you got 49, is the sensor maybe like 12.2MP or something?
So anyway, its not a true 48/49MP image, but its not just an upscale either.
I'm sure updates will start rolling out in a few months, it will interesting to see what they can bring. I don't know much about asus phones, but I'ved owned a ton of asus products, and I'm sure the rog phone will at least get something cool :good:
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Hopefully you can see the picture. And in the corner it shows 49M. I wish Oneplus 6/T would release their gaming mode for all Androids. It is much better done than the gaming mode asus has.

Yea I see, I'll correct myself. "I don't know where IT got 49
Is gaming mode like when you go to developer settings and enable CPU high performance mode? sounds like it essentially does the same thing... I'n which case I wouldn't care because it will already be way faster than my m7 haha
maybe you could upload some pics with super res on and off, seeing as this is a photo quality thread?

bbmaster123 said:
Yea I see, I'll correct myself. "I don't know where IT got 49
Is gaming mode like when you go to developer settings and enable CPU high performance mode? sounds like it essentially does the same thing... I'n which case I wouldn't care because it will already be way faster than my m7 haha
maybe you could upload some pics with super res on and off, seeing as this is a photo quality thread?
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Sorry for the late reply. Weather have been really boring lately. But this is standard and high resolution sample from this morning.

bamsemh said:
Sorry for the late reply. Weather have been really boring lately. But this is standard and high resolution sample from this morning.
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thanks for getting back to us with pics. :good:
the super res image definitely has better detail, and is also darker.

bbmaster123 said:
thanks for getting back to us with pics. :good:
the super res image definitely has better detail, and is also darker.
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I ended up returning the rog phone. Oneplus 6 performs 250% better in online gaming.

bamsemh said:
I ended up returning the rog phone. Oneplus 6 performs 250% better in online gaming.
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okay well I hope you enjoy your oneplus, I dont really play online games so I really only cared about its speakers screen and camera. Thanks again for your input! I'm still probably going to try to get one of these :good:

bbmaster123 said:
okay well I hope you enjoy your oneplus, I dont really play online games so I really only cared about its speakers screen and camera. Thanks again for your input! I'm still probably going to try to get one of these :good:
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Go for it, it's a great phone like the colored great sounding speakers, design symmetry which is rare to find now a days. There are a lot of pros going for this phone. I would say it's worth its price, could it have been better? sure!. But the same argument applies to every phone out there.

Rashad83 said:
Go for it, it's a great phone like the colored great sounding speakers, design symmetry which is rare to find now a days. There are a lot of pros going for this phone. I would say it's worth its price, could it have been better? sure!. But the same argument applies to every phone out there.
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I ordered it. Should have it by next week. Very true, every phone has some sort of compromise. on my m7 is was the lack of a qwerty keyboard, and now it will be size/material/cases for me. Man I really love my current case haha
I'll post back when I get the phone and root/setup/etc

bbmaster123 said:
okay well I hope you enjoy your oneplus, I dont really play online games so I really only cared about its speakers screen and camera. Thanks again for your input! I'm still probably going to try to get one of these :good:
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Currently using 1st gen RazerPhone and although the screens a bit dark I was mainly looking to get this phone for Netflix and Google/YouTube Premium. Now I know HDR isn't everything but how is video and sound on this phone for Netflix. With Amoled screen I feel it would be better and curious if any black borders on screen during YouTube or Netflix playback. While also going back to 1080 from 1440.

iStasis said:
Currently using 1st gen RazerPhone and although the screens a bit dark I was mainly looking to get this phone for Netflix and Google/YouTube Premium. Now I know HDR isn't everything but how is video and sound on this phone for Netflix. With Amoled screen I feel it would be better and curious if any black borders on screen during YouTube or Netflix playback. While also going back to 1080 from 1440.
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I'm currently using an m7 and the speakers are definitely blown after all these years (almost 5). I have an ROG phone in transit right now, was supposed to be delivered today but the canada post stike is messing with all the couriers right now so fedex hasn't shipped it yet. probably tomorrow. almost for sure. I will definitely let you know how everything is when I get it though! plus I plan to root it and find mods and see what else the phone is capable of.
In regards to black borders on youtube and netflix, since the phone is 18:9 it will definitely have them on netflix, since everything on there is pretty much all 16:9. Youtube has a mix now of multiple aspect ratios so it depends. I'm sure you could zoom in to crop it to 18:9 but I'd prefer the black borders over that personally. (maybe future phones could have ai that fills in the black with generated content? haha)

bbmaster123 said:
I'm currently using an m7 and the speakers are definitely blown after all these years (almost 5). I have an ROG phone in transit right now, was supposed to be delivered today but the canada post stike is messing with all the couriers right now so fedex hasn't shipped it yet. probably tomorrow. almost for sure. I will definitely let you know how everything is when I get it though! plus I plan to root it and find mods and see what else the phone is capable of.
In regards to black borders on youtube and netflix, since the phone is 18:9 it will definitely have them on netflix, since everything on there is pretty much all 16:9. Youtube has a mix now of multiple aspect ratios so it depends. I'm sure you could zoom in to crop it to 18:9 but I'd prefer the black borders over that personally. (maybe future phones could have ai that fills in the black with generated content? haha)
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I remember TVs doing this and started to watch what I could of blizzcon 2018 where my friends TV was cutting alot of the screen off the picture off as menus where not right as per it's display from the laptop so made everyone wait will I fixed the TV. I agree I'm too use to 16:9 now and although I won't be selling my RazerPhone it will probably always be with me as a 2nd phone in my tech bag as you never know when it's needed plus being on a true unlimited data plan with not tethering limit its handy to just have spare if I need it or someone else needs it if traveling. I'll have to live with some bars as 18:9 is still new but did see this.
Any video letterboxing is moot as the actual size of the video doesn't change relative to a 16:9 screen, and actually the extended width can help for movies that are shot is a wider aspect.

iStasis said:
I remember TVs doing this and started to watch what I could of blizzcon 2018 where my friends TV was cutting alot of the screen off the picture off as menus where not right as per it's display from the laptop so made everyone wait will I fixed the TV. I agree I'm too use to 16:9 now and although I won't be selling my RazerPhone it will probably always be with me as a 2nd phone in my tech bag as you never know when it's needed plus being on a true unlimited data plan with not tethering limit its handy to just have spare if I need it or someone else needs it if traveling. I'll have to live with some bars as 18:9 is still new but did see this.
Any video letterboxing is moot as the actual size of the video doesn't change relative to a 16:9 screen, and actually the extended width can help for movies that are shot is a wider aspect.
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yea exactly, since the video resolution doesn't actually change its just best to live with the bars. you still have to do it when watching 4:3 content on a 16:9 anyway so its kinda like the same thing.

bbmaster123 said:
yea exactly, since the video resolution doesn't actually change its just best to live with the bars. you still have to do it when watching 4:3 content on a 16:9 anyway so its kinda like the same thing.
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Yeah I am currently going through some old Star Trek on Netflix and completely forgot about the 4:3 bars. I will probably drop my pre order once I hear back from Asus regarding their 4G supported bands and if they match my Carriers bands. I don't want a phone which doesn't work on 4G. Plus there's and LTE issues with non partner/devices bought from manufacture direct that don't have their branded image on them may not work. trying to get ThreeUK and Asus to confirm i wont have an issue. Plus I know i have 15 days to return it with Asus but want them to advise if i have to pay p&p to return it if it doesn't do what I need.

iStasis said:
Yeah I am currently going through some old Star Trek on Netflix and completely forgot about the 4:3 bars. I will probably drop my pre order once I hear back from Asus regarding their 4G supported bands and if they match my Carriers bands. I don't want a phone which doesn't work on 4G. Plus there's and LTE issues with non partner/devices bought from manufacture direct that don't have their branded image on them may not work. trying to get ThreeUK and Asus to confirm i wont have an issue. Plus I know i have 15 days to return it with Asus but want them to advise if i have to pay p&p to return it if it doesn't do what I need.
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you can double check, I found that the rog supports 4 of 6 lte bands my carrier offers which means slightly restricted throughput/signal strength in certain areas of the city but still lte everywhere.
try googling your carrier + lte bands and see if you can't find some useful information. also google the bands that it does offer to see which ones are most important and you can use that to make a decision.

Rashad83 said:
Go for it, it's a great phone like the colored great sounding speakers, design symmetry which is rare to find now a days. There are a lot of pros going for this phone. I would say it's worth its price, could it have been better? sure!. But the same argument applies to every phone out there.
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Its a nightmare buying any phone these days with everything done online. I honestly wish that some reviews would actually test and use the devices a bit more rather than the same boring un boxing videos plastered up on YouTube and only a handful of them are actually technical. The ones that are any good are those who start to use the devices as a daily driver for a while.

iStasis said:
Its a nightmare buying any phone these days with everything done online. I honestly wish that some reviews would actually test and use the devices a bit more rather than the same boring un boxing videos plastered up on YouTube and only a handful of them are actually technical. The ones that are any good are those who start to use the devices as a daily driver for a while.
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Just got my phone, I'll test and report back after work. Still need to get a new sim though.
EDIT: so I've been playing around with the phone. I don't have a usb type c connector or a micro sim so theres only so much I've done with it so far but it is impressive. Also for some context, screen on max brightness, rgb logo on colour cycle, and 90hz refresh has used about 25% after 3hrs screen on time. That would have totally drained my old phone
also the wifi is fast on my 5ghz band, 9ms ping and maxed out dl and ul
I did the system update and it made the screen dimmer :/ hope I can fix that after rooting
If theres something specific you'd like to know about just ask

My camera is Not sharp. It looks Like autofocus doesnt work.