Related
Mods,
Are the Relentless Appz posts being deleted because they contravene rules #7 and #11 about selling?
If so, fine, but if not - are they otherwise dodgy and to be avoided or is it just a forum rule thing?
TIA
NB - Don't mean to stir up a fire. Feel free to delete this thread and just PM me the answer if you prefer.
I too would like to know. Anyone have any first hand experience? I'd considered giving their rom roaster a try. Thought it was a bit shady for them to make their member name "admin-xda." That made me take a step back. Anyone with any first hand experience with these guys?
Well, this is going to get bumped until I get an answer (or it's deleted...).
Anyway, I've purchased the software and am getting active and responsive support from the developer. Having said this we're working through some installation challenges (might be my system, we don't know).
I've taken one for the team and now have considerable experience in packaging and bundling roms so will apply this software to my Kang-o-rama build to see how it suits.
I will write a review of the software when I have used it sufficiently and post that here on XDA.
In the meantime, I recommend you wait although so far I feel this guy (the dev) is honest and just trying to do a good job. We will see.
Well, this is going to get bumped until I get an answer (or it's deleted...).
Anyway, I've purchased the software and am getting active and responsive support from the developer. Having said this we're working through some installation challenges (might be my system, we don't know).
I've taken one for the team and now have considerable experience in packaging and bundling roms so will apply this software to my Kang-o-rama build to see how it suits.
I will write a review of the software when I have used it sufficiently and post that here on XDA.
In the meantime, I recommend you wait although so far I feel this guy (the dev) is honest and just trying to do a good job. We will see.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just curious - what is it that you want to do with your ROM when cooking it yourself?
dsixda said:
Just curious - what is it that you want to do with your ROM when cooking it yourself?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, to be honest I'm sceptical it will help me. But, it may and I'm willing to check it out on behalf of other XDA users and report back. The 5 quid isn't much to me but may be for others.
Also, because I've been building Kang-o-rama I think I'm in a good position to objectivity review the software.
On first appearances and based on the specs I think this has the potential to be quite a useful resource for junior rom builders... but that remains to be seen. If it works then really, it will be quite a nice solution for many because it's apparently a little more flexible than the various online kitchens.
Additionally, my communication so far with the dev has been positive and it really does appear as if he's got a personal interest in helping out the community. Of course I can't vouch for this fully yet.
Finally, if it actually allows me to save my build as versioned projects and simply execute the build from a single interface it may actually save me some time.
Having said all this, I've now practically automated my entire build so I suspect most of the value of my purchase might just be the potential review on XDA... we will see.
djmcnz said:
Mods,
Are the Relentless Appz posts being deleted because they contravene rules #7 and #11 about selling?
If so, fine, but if not - are they otherwise dodgy and to be avoided or is it just a forum rule thing?
TIA
NB - Don't mean to stir up a fire. Feel free to delete this thread and just PM me the answer if you prefer.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As I'm certain you know, there are many facets to a situation; and contrary to any announcements or statements you may have seen, this was not a targeted attack by a specific moderator. The owner of Relentless Appz clearly understands why the account suspension was placed for a third time.
I'm not going to get into providing the details about the action taken. I will say however, that several weeks of ongoing deliberation and discussions amongst Moderators/XDA Admins led to this action. As a sufficient number of forum rules were violated, and in the best interest of the members of this community, it was unanimously decided that this was the most appropriate course of action.
Please visit the Relentless Appz support forum on his website for assistance with trialware/purchased versions of his applications.
Regards,
Ref: Forum Rules
I really don't want this to come across wrong, but I just have to say it.
Developers, I appreciate all your hard work. I understand this is all beta/test/etc. I understand it is free of cost, even to those who did donate to one dev or another. You do it because you want to, not because you have to.
But please, for the love of all that's good - keep an updated list of Known Issues!
It sucks having to read 50 pages of posts to try to figure out if a particular release is reliable or not, to find out if there's a key feature broken or buggy. What makes it worse is you can't tell when reading these threads which users are on which release, because many still post issues after they've been resolved. Others post things that aren't really "issues" but user error.
You know what your issues are, you read the threads and you fix the issues. But trying to find a decent rom to flash is very, very difficult when your OP says "No known problems" and the thread that follows show that to be very untrue. It generates a lot of extra posts with people posting things you already know about, and it generates a lot of bad will when someone flashes something only to find that there are a number of game breaking issues.
All it takes is to update a post, say #2, in your thread, with KNOWN ISSUES. Once you confirm a bug, whether you intend to fix it on your next release or not, add it to that thread. It helps you, as a dev keep track of the bug, and it helps potential downloaders know what bugs have been confirmed and make an educated decision as to whether they want to install your release.
Hiding known issues is something I don't think anyone does intentionally, but it feels that way sometimes. It feels like devs are in a popularity contest, and any admission of flaws in their particular ROM is a weakness. Well, to tell the truth, I and many others are sick of installing something that was CLAIMED to be working perfectly, only to have glaring problems that have been there for many versions.
For a civil and productive development community. Please. Be honest with your known issues. It will go a long way in building trust with the people who you're providing ROMs to, and will mean fewer posts for YOU to wade through of users reporting known issues, without having read 500 posts first.
I have a hard time believing that most devs actively hide them. Most of the time it's probably just a bit of laziness. But, yes, it would be helpful when comparing roms if the descriptions had a well-maintained list of active bugs.
Since the developers here are NOT getting paid (NO your $20 donation is not sh*t for the time it takes to make one of these roms), yes WE will have to bear the brunt of testing these roms out and letting them know what bugs if any are in them
The other issue is the people flashing these roms, coming from Eugene's to Whiskey to the ASOP roms may generate some ghosts in the software that the developers cannot duplicate themselves. I know that when I went with the TW 2.2 roms I had plenty of issues, more issues than I have had even when I was stock. Odining back to stock and reflashing the 4.2 TW fixed ALL my problems. Dont know what caused it but since I have flashed a couple of roms prior to that (no problems), I will assume there were some ghosts in my system. This is an example that unless a TW team member is holding MY phone and working on it, they may not be able to duplicate
They don't care to list them. It's beneath some of them.
Maybe AirBus should list "midair exploding engines" as a known issue too...
kponti said:
Since the developers here are NOT getting paid (NO your $20 donation is not sh*t for the time it takes to make one of these roms), yes WE will have to bear the brunt of testing these roms out and letting them know what bugs if any are in them
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1. Hell, at work I run a $100,000.00+ software suite and even that company won't do what the OP suggests!
If you have a problem with them stop using their roms go back to stock and see how much better theirs is even with a few bugs, not one of you has any right to complain. They do damn good work for free with some donations that do not come close to what they should be paid for it but they do not whine at all.
The problem I find is the "spammy" and useless comments average and pretentious users make which is both hard for the developer and the end user to read the threads. A dev releases a ROM and there is a guaranteed "Oh I can't wait to flash this" comment that will pop up. And there are some issues that are minor and are sometimes not related to the release that are posted and some pretentious loser who extends his ego by trying to make simple matters complicated. This forum didn't much of this problem before and I could quickly flash ROMs easily since I could clearly grasp the status on the ROM project.
I wish they would start a new thread with new releases. It's a pain to try to read through a 500 page thread, and you comments about this or that, and you have no idea which version the person is talking about. I gave up on custom roms and just using the leaked tmo 2.2, thanks for that Eugene
kponti said:
Since the developers here are NOT getting paid (NO your $20 donation is not sh*t for the time it takes to make one of these roms), yes WE will have to bear the brunt of testing these roms out and letting them know what bugs if any are in them
The other issue is the people flashing these roms, coming from Eugene's to Whiskey to the ASOP roms may generate some ghosts in the software that the developers cannot duplicate themselves. I know that when I went with the TW 2.2 roms I had plenty of issues, more issues than I have had even when I was stock. Odining back to stock and reflashing the 4.2 TW fixed ALL my problems. Dont know what caused it but since I have flashed a couple of roms prior to that (no problems), I will assume there were some ghosts in my system. This is an example that unless a TW team member is holding MY phone and working on it, they may not be able to duplicate
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Click to collapse
A $20 donation is not worth the risk of bricking a $550 phone just because they got "lazy" and didn't notify donators/downloaders of [a] potentially show-stopping issue.
Posted a new Thread in Dev section for the purpose of reporting issues. So if you have an issue please shoot it to me and I will post it in that thread.
Update: Here is the link for the WIKI page.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/wiki/index.php?title=Samsung_Galaxy_S_SGH-T959#ROMs
swehes said:
Posted a new Thread in Dev section for the purpose of reporting issues. So if you have an issue please shoot it to me and I will post it in that thread.
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Click to collapse
You are in a heap of trouble, a lot of people don't read, and you are gonna get 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 repeats of the same issue.
"OMG! MY SD CAR DONES"T MOUNT< HELP ME!11!!111"
chui101 said:
I have a hard time believing that most devs actively hide them. Most of the time it's probably just a bit of laziness. But, yes, it would be helpful when comparing roms if the descriptions had a well-maintained list of active bugs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The issue here is really that a forum is not the ideal place to manage software releases. A list of bugs emerges from community testing, but there's nowhere to "post" that list of issues, or attach it to a specific release. Since there's no way for the community to add such documentation, it falls on the ROM builder, who probably has other priorities.
This kind of project could be well served by using a real software project management software solution, such as say google code, which has an issue tracker and other useful features. But XDA does already give us a better tool than the forum - the XDA wiki!
I wish people would use the XDA wiki more extensively. This would be a good place to keep updated documentation such as this, without requiring the OP to keep a forum post updated with the latest findings. All the OP needs to do is link to the wiki page, and other people can help maintain it.
OK. Looking into Google Code.
(Update) So looking into the Google Code. What Licensing agreement are the ROMs under? Is it GPL v2 or v3 or another license?
swehes said:
OK. Looking into Google Code.
(Update) So looking into the Google Code. What Licensing agreement are the ROMs under? Is it GPL v2 or v3 or another license?
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Depends on the project. The Linux kernel is GPLv2, so any kernels fall under that license. AOSP as a whole uses both GPL and apache code.
The issue with ROMs is that unless they're AOSP derived (like cyanogenmod) they often include binaries for which the license situation is murky at best, so google code isn't really an ideal fit for a "ROM" that's only ever released as a binary.
Really I was throwing google code out there as a well known example, there are tons of other ways to track issues. There are dedicated issue tracking systems such as trac, bugzilla, etc, but they require hosting. Most of the freely available hosted services require that you're running an open source project, which isn't necessarily true for the ROMs here.
IMO a serious project could very well benefit from such tools, but just using an XDA wiki page which community members can freely update is a great first step.
So looked into the Wiki for the Vibrant and have updated some information. Let me know what you guys think. Is this the way to go?
http://forum.xda-developers.com/wiki/index.php?title=Samsung_Galaxy_S_SGH-T959#ROMs
swehes said:
So looked into the Wiki for the Vibrant and have updated some information. Let me know what you guys think. Is this the way to go?
http://forum.xda-developers.com/wiki/index.php?title=Samsung_Galaxy_S_SGH-T959#ROMs
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Click to collapse
Not to be the "Spelling Nazi", and I am not even sure if you can change it, but it is "Kernel" not "Kernal". Also, the Dev on Team Whiskey is Sombionix, not Symbionix.
Otherwise, that looks like a great idea, and possible way of tracking things!
EDIT - I guess I could go ahead and make those tweaks, with it being a wiki and all couldn't I....
EDIT EDIT - Fixed it.
Stargazer3777 said:
Not to be the "Spelling Nazi", and I am not even sure if you can change it, but it is "Kernel" not "Kernal". Also, the Dev on Team Whiskey is Sombionix, not Symbionix.
Otherwise, that looks like a great idea, and possible way of tracking things!
EDIT - I guess I could go ahead and make those tweaks, with it being a wiki and all couldn't I....
EDIT EDIT - Fixed it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks. On both accounts.
Maybe this should be a post to Microsoft
To quote "there are known, unknowns and unknown, knowns and and even sometimes unknown,unknowns............but.........
Developers ----develop they do not become a bookkeeper of their development.........that is coordinating work...........good luck getting any developer in ANY Specialty to do that............. reporting bugs........
---Maybe this should be a post to Microsoft---
N8ter said:
A $20 donation is not worth the risk of bricking a $550 phone just because they got "lazy" and didn't notify donators/downloaders of [a] potentially show-stopping issue.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have yet to see a REAL (completely dead) "bricked" vibrant from flashing a released Rom alone. I have seen a lot of user error cause boot loops or "soft-bricks" & HWL phones become unflashable because the end user didn't take the time to research though. As far as devs being "lazy" I dont really see that when the developer is coming here for us to tell him what else we find wrong. They are coding, you flash, you report back with a logcat. This is how development is made to my understanding. If ppl are to lazy to JUST do this then why shouldn't the developer discount long winded post or something they are not experiencing? If they know there is a bug its in the OP.
If you guys can change the interwebz & how 500 post per update are made completely useless please feel free to do so....
swehes said:
So looked into the Wiki for the Vibrant and have updated some information. Let me know what you guys think. Is this the way to go?
http://forum.xda-developers.com/wiki/index.php?title=Samsung_Galaxy_S_SGH-T959#ROMs
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Click to collapse
I think it's a pretty awesome start for sure
As a matter of personal taste, I think having an individual wiki page per ROM (with the known issues and other detailed info) might be nice, although I'm not sure what the policy on new pages is with the XDA wiki.
Speaking from professional experience, the most challenging aspect of any documentation system is always convincing people to use it. It's great to compile the information, but unless ROM builders and devs post a link to the wiki in the forum threads nobody will ever see it. Having good, community based documentation is a benefit to everybody though, so hopefully people will recognize the utility of it and encourage its growth!
And the thread was closed... (Dissent causes censure).
Fellow Community: Something going arawy in the Samsung I9100 (Galaxy S2) forums.
The purpose of me opening this thread is to ensure community discussion occurs.
With good intentions, our User Experinance Admin @sveitus has sliced apart The Samsung Galaxy S II Android Development, hiving off `the cream` into The Samsung Galaxy S II Original ROM development thread.
The idea being to Quoting (and please read @sveitus's post in case I'm selectively quoting) the explanitory thread
This forum is for ROMs that aren't an original creation by you in terms of the underlying software, meaning, they've been either 1. developed with assistance from a kitchen or are 2. a re-skinning/re-themeing/minor adjustment of a particular ROM developed by someone else.
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The Original ROM's are now found within this subforum
Setting aside the lunacy of thinking that anything apart from ASOP and Samsung's stock ROM isn't derived from something else... or the difficulties in determining which belongs in one thread or another (just watch them bouncy from one to another), I find a two things contra XDA ethos.
This subdivision was done without community consultation.
When announced, there was rapid dissent and the response was to close the thread (for heavens sake).
In fairness, to quote @sveitus
P.S. This is a bit of an experiment. Should it make sense, we'll roll it out to other forums on XDA
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, although my concern is that there is no criteria laid down for "success"
I believe this is a reaction, maybe considered, to two things:
I believe that proportion of the community would like to see forums divided (from what I can tell, divided into Kernels, ROMs and Modems), a proportion are comfortable (complacenty abiding with?) the current structure and a proportion who want to differentiate `original` with `derived`. As is also common in politics, the silent majority will be ignored in favour of the loud minority. I suspect that the democratic view is unknown in this instance.
I believe that this split is a knee jerk reaction to an unfortunate incident where someone released a ROM claiming their own work when (to be confirmed?) all bar part of a theme was taken raw from another source uncredited.
Personally speaking, for a mod to close a thread without explaination isn't easily forgiveable.
What say you?
p.s. (edit) We already have different classes of users based on number of postings, etc.
The forums are not going to be divided. What we did with Galaxy S II was just an experiment...an attempt to keep themes/derivative ROMs (that are based on other ROMs) separate from everything else. Never was this about separating "top tier" developers from everyone else.
As we are going to announce today, we're working on a long-term solution for this, through a ROM database.
Thanks for your feedback.
svetius said:
The forums are not going to be divided. What we did with Galaxy S II was just an experiment...an attempt to keep themes/derivative ROMs (that are based on other ROMs) separate from everything else. Never was this about separating "top tier" developers from everyone else.
As we are going to announce today, we're working on a long-term solution for this, through a ROM database.
Thanks for your feedback.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you for the quick response. I guess the division of the Samsung S2 forum was an incredibly short lived experiment and I imagine they are being remerged as I type and that themes can live where always should have in their own `themes and apps` sub forum.
I do understand why it is desirable to identify deriviative ROMs (hint: Look at the HD2 Android Dev forum(s) rules to see a great example of useful identification tags in subjects).
Sending you a pm regarding the closure of the thread (for the purpose of me opening this thread was to offer awareness and give our community a voice.
I'm just a user and I wonder how many other user dont really care where there ROMS have come from and just want a category which just contains ROMS, no sitckies, no dev no "coming" soons, just fully flashable ROMS. Now if you could so this it would make this area much easier to use.
I have to say I just don't get this ROM theft rubbish, Android is supposed to be open source, if you don't want to share your ROM don't post it full stop. If donations are'nt good enough for you then don't post it. If someone uses your work then see it as a compliment and live with it. Adding rules and further layers of complexity to the ROM cooking process is just causing arguments that need not be there. Cooks have to accept that their work is going to used, DEVs also as long as it isn't actually an app.
Now if this attitude puts some people off then the ROMS posted will be fewer in number but populated with those lovingly crafted for the sake of it and not by those who simply want ego boosts to or to generate a profit, this isnt what open source or XDA is supposed to be about...!
discuss..
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
With you on the rest of it.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App
tomj777 said:
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
With you on the rest of it.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App
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Click to collapse
Not at all, I strongly believe open source should be just that and that alone, plagiarism should not even exist on here. There should be no rules for cooking or ingredients at all. If everyone worked this way then there would be no complaints, everyone would just be sharing everything, we may even see better roms even if we do loose a few players.
Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
stoolzo said:
...Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In a perfect world, that would be ideal. Relying on people to do the right thing would unfortunately lead to chaos. Why? Should we get rid of police officers and courts and just rely on people to "do the right thing"? Nice idea, however the world you mention is fantasy.
stoolzo said:
I'm just a user and I wonder how many other user dont really care where there ROMS have come from
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Click to collapse
I for one, also don't care which came from which. Though I understand the devs' who want to protect their fame/donations, which I think the primary reason for these copying disputes.
tomj777 said:
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is true especially if money is involve.
ROM DEV A created a GOOD ROM = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%
ROM DEV B, IMPROVED/CUSTOMIZED ROM OF DEV A = donation of ROM DEV B = xx% = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%-xx%
NOTE: Above is just an example.
I think "orig" ROM devs feels that the donations coming to "derivative" ROM devs should have been theirs.
stoolzo said:
Not at all, I strongly believe open source should be just that and that alone, plagiarism should not even exist on here. There should be no rules for cooking or ingredients at all. If everyone worked this way then there would be no complaints, everyone would just be sharing everything, we may even see better roms even if we do loose a few players.
Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Our society/community is far from the utopic concept that you talk about. I would love nothing more than to not have to enforce any rules in here, trusting that people would just do the right thing, but unfortunately this is far from over. Quite frankly matters got much worse after the introduction of Android. Back when xda was solely focused on Windows Mobile, plagiarism was something that was hardly ever seen around these areas. Everyone had work out in the open, work which they gladly shared with everyone just for the advancement of the platform (and partial resentment against Microsoft ). That work was always credited, any and all help was always acknowledged, and people were all working together towards the same goal. If you want a more utopic XDA, go back 4 years in time and you will find one. Funny enough, it wasn't until Android hit that I learned that this site had moderators. I knew about the administrators but not about moderators... that is how utopic this place was. And if you look at my join date, I have been active here for a very long time.
khein said:
I for one, also don't care which came from which. Though I understand the devs' who want to protect their fame/donations, which I think the primary reason for these copying disputes.
This is true especially if money is involve.
ROM DEV A created a GOOD ROM = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%
ROM DEV B, IMPROVED/CUSTOMIZED ROM OF DEV A = donation of ROM DEV B = xx% = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%-xx%
NOTE: Above is just an example.
I think "orig" ROM devs feels that the donations coming to "derivative" ROM devs should have been theirs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, you are missing the point completely. In your equation, simply replace the word "donation" with the word "feedback". What is dev B going to do with feedback that was meant to go for dev A? Or better yet, if all that dev B did was throw theme packages together and zipped them into a flashable rom, what can dev B do when feedback comes to him asking him to fix something? Dev A needs these feedback and bug reports to improve his work.
Something I think has been missed from these discussions is...
One of the objectives here is to make it easier for users to finds ROMs that just variants of one they already have; the same underlying code base, but with tweaks to improve the user experience; and ROMs with actual improvements - bug fixes, major improvements, etc.
I'm not trying to make a point here, just illustrate another reason for the changes.
Dave
egzthunder1 said:
Our society/community is far from the utopic concept that you talk about. I would love nothing more than to not have to enforce any rules in here, trusting that people would just do the right thing, but unfortunately this is far from over. Quite frankly matters got much worse after the introduction of Android. Back when xda was solely focused on Windows Mobile, plagiarism was something that was hardly ever seen around these areas. Everyone had work out in the open, work which they gladly shared with everyone just for the advancement of the platform (and partial resentment against Microsoft ). That work was always credited, any and all help was always acknowledged, and people were all working together towards the same goal. If you want a more utopic XDA, go back 4 years in time and you will find one. Funny enough, it wasn't until Android hit that I learned that this site had moderators. I knew about the administrators but not about moderators... that is how utopic this place was. And if you look at my join date, I have been active here for a very long time.
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Click to collapse
The anything goes really can only be the way forward here because what you are are suggesting in any form is a total nightmare for users which completely defeats the object of XDA, remove ease of use and usefulness and you have no XDA and people will start to leave in droves.
If you agree that 4 years ago was far more ideal than it is currently then why aren't you trying to pull things back to where it was then? All you have to do is to post new rules about XDA stepping back on moderation and leaving users to self moderate. Advise that you will still deal with complaints but on a case by case basis by email and not be thread posts, setup and [email protected] or something. Just moderate the legal and unpleasant stuff.
yes it would be nice to have a one fits all system were everyone would receive the exact amount praise or donations for the work done, in proportion to what effort was put in, this WILL NEVER HAPPEN, if you keep loading layer up layer of complexity on top then you will just break it altogether, plus when something is open source nobody has the right to anything, praise, donations, nothing, open source is about good will, not profit, not fame or fortune. I think XDA allows themselves to get to mixed up in this.
Sometimes you just got to sit back and say F*ck it and let things ride.
DaveShaw said:
Something I think has been missed from these discussions is...
One of the objectives here is to make it easier for users to finds ROMs that just variants of one they already have; the same underlying code base, but with tweaks to improve the user experience; and ROMs with actual improvements - bug fixes, major improvements, etc.
I'm not trying to make a point here, just illustrate another reason for the changes.
Dave
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I see what you were trying to do but it was a huge fail, it was a nice thought but its better just to shove all the ROMS together and let people try them as just because a ROM says it has this, that or the other it doesn't mean it will work as reported and it may have something the flasher wont like. All XDA needs to do is present the information clearly and leave the user to make up their own mind.
I see no need to break down the subs further other than to put ROMS in their own folder, that would definitely make things easier as the current ROM/DEV folder is a total mess.
egzthunder1 said:
No, you are missing the point completely. In your equation, simply replace the word "donation" with the word "feedback". What is dev B going to do with feedback that was meant to go for dev A? Or better yet, if all that dev B did was throw theme packages together and zipped them into a flashable rom, what can dev B do when feedback comes to him asking him to fix something? Dev A needs these feedback and bug reports to improve his work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have yet to experience what your talking about. ROM B has a problem? Moved to ROM A..
Derived ROM Dev tells "ORIG" ROM Dev an issue? "ORIG" ROM Dev replies that his/her ROM users doesn't report issues, and tells he/she(derived ROM dev) must have done something wrong.
That is normally what happens, because most bugs/issues are found by the "ORIG" rom users.
What if I hosted a copy/modified/derived version of the XDA forums. And my so-called derived XDA forum managed to gain some fame/high activity, even managed to catch up with xda's status/market share. Then one day, a major issue occured, and I couldn't fix it as the problem seems to come from the "ORIG" xda source BUT the "ORIG" xda forum doesn't have this problem. Do you think the XDA admin, would even bother to help me fix my derived XDA forum seeing that his "ORIG" forum could replicate the problem?
stoolzo said:
The anything goes really can only be the way forward here because what you are are suggesting in any form is a total nightmare for users which completely defeats the object of XDA, remove ease of use and usefulness and you have no XDA and people will start to leave in droves.
If you agree that 4 years ago was far more ideal than it is currently then why aren't you trying to pull things back to where it was then? All you have to do is to post new rules about XDA stepping back on moderation and leaving users to self moderate. Advise that you will still deal with complaints but on a case by case basis by email and not be thread posts, setup and [email protected] or something. Just moderate the legal and unpleasant stuff.
yes it would be nice to have a one fits all system were everyone would receive the exact amount praise or donations for the work done, in proportion to what effort was put in, this WILL NEVER HAPPEN, if you keep loading layer up layer of complexity on top then you will just break it altogether, plus when something is open source nobody has the right to anything, praise, donations, nothing, open source is about good will, not profit, not fame or fortune. I think XDA allows themselves to get to mixed up in this.
Sometimes you just got to sit back and say F*ck it and let things ride.
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Users did not self moderate 4+ years ago.... there was less need for moderation. You didn't see constant intervention by mods, not because the rules were not in place or because the mods were not around, but rather because there was no drama in the titanic proportions that we see it daily. It is very easy to speak from the regular member's stand point, but the amount of stuff that we (mods and admins) see going through this site day in and day out since the smartphone market exploded would make you want to jump out of a window!
You are suggesting, in essence, that we do away with our rules and let people "do the right thing." Why? Our rules have been in place since early 2003 when the site was founded. For over 5 years, these rules have made xda-developers the site that many regard today as the largest developer community on the web.
You speak of the objective of XDA, what do you think this is? Do you know what the true mission of this site is? XDA is a development and hacking community. It isn't end users that make this community, it is developers, hackers, and enthusiast that are the back-bone of this site. Do you want to know what XDA truly is about?
Read this
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2031989&postcount=45
I think what a lot of people forget is that this is not a "make my phone neat & kewl" place.
As implied by the name this is technically a Developers forum/community.
Now what does that mean? Well first off it means that there is an expectation that if you are here then you want to customize your device but rather than just installing something that someone packaged you want to understand how it works and maybe even enhance it yourself.
When I first came here with a Blue Angel it was a different environment. PDA Phones were not embraced by the general public because of the expense and complexity (I paid over $400 for my BA). A $400 phone 4 years ago was expensive, today the Tilt is $300 after rebates but with inflation & the rise in the cost of other devices and the fact that there are other sources out there giving them away for $150 our neat bit of kit has become popular with mainstream users.
Now we have a flood of new users who are asking not "How can I do this myself" but more like "Give me the quick fix" without caring to understand the process. See if you read the threads then you get to experience the learning process, you see how the issues were investigated and confirmed. Then you get to watch the different attempts at resolution and learn why some failed while others worked. That is called Development.
The NooB backlash is coming from users who have walked in the development shoes and is directed mainly at those who don't care for the journey but just want the end result or destination.
As a Development Forum we are just as much (if not more) about the journey. I've read so many comments like "I don't have time to read all of the threads" or "I don't care how it works, just that it does". These very statements are contrary to the heart & soul of XDA-Devs and that is why the backlash is so strong.
Let me be very clear on this: IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THE JOURNEY THEN YOU PROBABLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
XDA-Devs is about developers & hackers helping each other and working together to get the most out of our devices by understanding them better than most.
XDA-Devs is not about helping everyone who wants a "Kewl bit of kit" make their phone better than the guy next to him.
Now do we go kicking users off who never contribute anything, NO. We tolerate it to an extent. Where the toleration ends is when these users start diluting the usefulness of the forum by repeating the same questions over and over again.
You ask us to understand your position. Well if you want to benefit from our experience and time then I think it is only fair that you understand our position.
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This is the true ethos of XDA. This is what our community and founding members believed and still do regarding how our site should work and what our members should do to "fit" here.
Hi, firstly I am not talking about XDA as a whole, I fully understand the need for general forum rules and regs, I am simply talking here about cooking for android, I am not trying to tell you how to run your shop. Cooking for Android is different I think as Android is supposed to open source, on one hand people should not be expecting anything in return for the work but on the other it is implied that they will as this is a good will based forum, it should remain that way (again for android only I cannot speak for other platforms)
I am simply of the opinion, regarding cooking and only cooking that trying to police this is impossible,
I certainly understand how frustrating it can be for genuine devs and people who put a lot of effort into customising a ROM but it is just impossible to weed out the good from the bad as you have clearly found, plenty has already been said on this so I dont really need to say any more.
Its is certainly true that XDA has changed, its grown into something completely different, perhaps its time for major rethink and not just sticking plasters
Have you thought about setting up a tier forum system?.
Tier one: would be invite only by MODs, this would be a completely seperate forum, laid out in the same way but on a different URL maybe. This would be mainly for devs and cooks, people on here could create, view and edits posts on here and also on the standard main forum as it is now.
Tier two: would be invite only or based on numbers of posts and / or numbers of thankyou's perhaps. (from different users). You would be able to view tier 1 but not post. YOu would be able to view and post the standard forum.
tier three: no access to view tier one, can edit and post on the main standard forum only much like a user can a the moment.
Tier 4: read only access to main form (until they join)
People on Tier 1 would then be able to disucss and share stuff without the background hum of zillions of noob questions and posts, this would also be a lot more decure as invite only would keep out the riff raff.
Tier two people would then have an incentive to contribute more to dev and so reach tier 1 status. You could also use this system as a punishment, people cold be denied access to higher levels if they infringe on rules.
Sounds a little eliteist doesnt it?, well it is a little but I probably wont ever make tier one but can understand the need for something like this.
khein said:
I have yet to experience what your talking about. ROM B has a problem? Moved to ROM A..
Derived ROM Dev tells "ORIG" ROM Dev an issue? "ORIG" ROM Dev replies that his/her ROM users doesn't report issues, and tells he/she(derived ROM dev) must have done something wrong.
That is normally what happens, because most bugs/issues are found by the "ORIG" rom users.
What if I hosted a copy/modified/derived version of the XDA forums. And my so-called derived XDA forum managed to gain some fame/high activity, even managed to catch up with xda's status/market share. Then one day, a major issue occured, and I couldn't fix it as the problem seems to come from the "ORIG" xda source BUT the "ORIG" xda forum doesn't have this problem. Do you think the XDA admin, would even bother to help me fix my derived XDA forum seeing that his "ORIG" forum could replicate the problem?
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Click to collapse
Tbh I think you miss the point. We aren't saying derivative roms aren't important. Of course they are. I even use them occasionally myself. If I'm having an issue with a rom I'm using, of course I will try and help fix the bug. What we are trying to do is aid developers by splitting the forums up into two clear sections
stoolzo said:
I see what you were trying to do but it was a huge fail, it was a nice thought but its better just to shove all the ROMS together and let people try them as just because a ROM says it has this, that or the other it doesn't mean it will work as reported and it may have something the flasher wont like. All XDA needs to do is present the information clearly and leave the user to make up their own mind.
I see no need to break down the subs further other than to put ROMS in their own folder, that would definitely make things easier as the current ROM/DEV folder is a total mess.
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Click to collapse
That wasn't the only reason you know. Just one of the consequences of the new idea that seems to have been overlooked thus far.
stoolzo said:
Hi, firstly I am not talking about XDA as a whole, I fully understand the need for general forum rules and regs, I am simply talking here about cooking for android, I am not trying to tell you how to run your shop. Cooking for Android is different I think as Android is supposed to open source, on one hand people should not be expecting anything in return for the work but on the other it is implied that they will as this is a good will based forum, it should remain that way (again for android only I cannot speak for other platforms)
I am simply of the opinion, regarding cooking and only cooking that trying to police this is impossible,
I certainly understand how frustrating it can be for genuine devs and people who put a lot of effort into customising a ROM but it is just impossible to weed out the good from the bad as you have clearly found, plenty has already been said on this so I dont really need to say any more.
Its is certainly true that XDA has changed, its grown into something completely different, perhaps its time for major rethink and not just sticking plasters
Have you thought about setting up a tier forum system?.
Tier one: would be invite only by MODs, this would be a completely seperate forum, laid out in the same way but on a different URL maybe. This would be mainly for devs and cooks, people on here could create, view and edits posts on here and also on the standard main forum as it is now.
Tier two: would be invite only or based on numbers of posts and / or numbers of thankyou's perhaps. (from different users). You would be able to view tier 1 but not post. YOu would be able to view and post the standard forum.
tier three: no access to view tier one, can edit and post on the main standard forum only much like a user can a the moment.
Tier 4: read only access to main form (until they join)
People on Tier 1 would then be able to disucss and share stuff without the background hum of zillions of noob questions and posts, this would also be a lot more decure as invite only would keep out the riff raff.
Tier two people would then have an incentive to contribute more to dev and so reach tier 1 status. You could also use this system as a punishment, people cold be denied access to higher levels if they infringe on rules.
Sounds a little eliteist doesnt it?, well it is a little but I probably wont ever make tier one but can understand the need for something like this.
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Click to collapse
Hey,
Tier 1 does sorta exist It's the recognized developer program, which has an area for this.
If I'm honest, what you describe sounds very much like the new system, with a "big stuff" section (the rec dev area), then a tier 2 area, where the "original" stuff goes, and a tier 3 area for the remainder?
well, not really, my way does not seeks to discourage people by singling out their work, however apparently trivial it may appear to be inferior to others - openly...
My idea was really about giving the more technical / coding minded people more of a say in how they work, somewhere more quiet to share and discuss stuff. If you say this already exists then why don't you extend it to encompass the more favoured cooks?, the more stuff worked on and completed at this level will leave less to fight over at my level.
I still think you should put all the ROMS back together in one category and kick out all the other dev stuff into to its own, if only to help us lowly users find out next ROM more easily, don't forget about us
Just putting it out there that I would love to be a tester for the Galaxy SII, I have the original one, I have flash and went through 90% of every ROM up for it in both sections the original section and regular section, I just love flashing and going through Roms and would love to just help out someone with there Rom and do whatever it is they need me to do as far as testing, please hit me back. I hope I posted this is the right place if not, I will watch the Noob video 20 times in a row for punishment.
ah ok...... that's an idea
Original SGS II ? No kidding! :|
At first, I thought of this as just a pointless thread - but you got me thinking... What if we were to create a thread where people can nominate themselves as alpha/beta/etc. testers for ROM/Kernel developers? The difference lying in that to be eligible for a position, you'd have to prove that you have basic knowledge of how to recover from, for example, a bootloop, or a device that won't even boot, or constant FCs, etc. etc., along with again, pretty basic ADB knowledge, how to create and restore a NANDroid backup, and things like that. It'd come with the usual disclaimer stating that all responsibilities lie with the user, not the developer, and while the developer may be willing to provide support for bugs, etc., they are not liable for any damage resulting either directly or indirectly from the use of their software.
This would solve two things - it would satisfy those who just can't stand to wait for the release of something, who like to always live on the bleeding edge of development, and it would provide the developers a huge testing platform.
In review, though, this provides to main issues: 1) people would only be able to test one thing at a time, e.g. you're not going to be allowed to test a beta ROM with an alpha kernel, for example - it creates too many variables, and makes it harder for the developers to isolate and fix problems - but this shouldn't be an issue for people, just pick what you want and stick with it, and 2) people who leak the otherwise tester-restricted software for the masses - but this can be solved easily: maintain a list of official testers. Anyone who comes begging for support because they went ahead and flashed some leaked ROM/kernel/whatever, and ended up without a working device without being on the list, can be denied support for breaking the rules. Moreover, they, along with the leaker, could potentially face site-imposed bans?
I'll cut the rambling here, but I think it's a good idea?
As a ROM developer, its a great idea.
Sent from HydrOG3N MOD S2.
Technology Evolves, Android Evolves.
HydrOG3N is THE Revolution.
Thinking about it, not bad idea. But to back sceamworks up a bit, there should be a number of post limit, Some form of history for the dev`s to see who is a Noob (sorry Noobs) and who is not...
I'm in
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA App
I like the idea and I too would be glad to help people testing there ROMs.
It also seems nice to have a thread where people (like me or the OP) can set them self available for testing.
Most real developers pick their team from watching the threads and see how is willing to put the time in and know how to properly test as well as offer ideas on fixes. But not a bad idea I guess for new rom developers
lodger said:
Thinking about it, not bad idea. But to back sceamworks up a bit, there should be a number of post limit, Some form of history for the dev`s to see who is a Noob (sorry Noobs) and who is not...
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I agree completely, I'd say 50-100 would be a fair starting point? I might PM some devs sometime soon with a proper proposal, and if I get a positive response from a majority of them, I might draft something, and get some official names on-board.
zelendel said:
Most real developers pick their team from watching the threads and see how is willing to put the time in and know how to properly test as well as offer ideas on fixes. But not a bad idea I guess for new rom developers
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I considered this, and I think if anything brings the idea down, it'll be that - it's a hard sell to make, and I'd love to say that there's no harm in trying, but really, there is, so I guess execution is everything?
Good idea, im in....
hello, i've made an Automated Atrix ThatRom Installer.
This script will help noobs to do everything without any troubles.
The file is a rar archive with all firmware files + installer.
here is a link http://www.mobile-inform.com/content/view/1148/1/
this is early alpha. you take all responsibility on yourself. I do not recommend you to use this rom, but if you still want to use it - here it is
UPD Updated To ThatRom v2 (AtrICS)
all thanks to the author of ThatRomv2 (AtrICS), i made only the Installer!
With best regards
the_fly
I don't think that it's a good idea to make an automatic installer of something that it's no stable for someone who doesn't even know how to use fastboot nor flash a zip. Maybe when this finally reaches the stable "level", then you should do the Installer.
BravoMotorola said:
Maybe, until you're not annoying, you should stfu. Seriously stop trying to tell people what to do.
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Wow dude, that was really uncalled for. He is actually right because now the op has put himself in a position to be harassed by anyone who tries this and messes up their phone even though they should and do know the risks. He was just trying to be helpful, he wasn't attacking the op for making it.
I agree making an unstable, untested, developer test build easily available to newbies is a very bad idea. If they can't at the VERY least learn how to use fastboot and adb, they should come nowhere near this ROM. Unless of course you really want to be held responsible for dozens of bricked and/or unusable phones, and be expected to provide extensive support at all times.
if they are noobs - it is their problem. Everything is written befoure me.
Everyone takes responsibility for their actions.
There were several noobs who were crying about ICS even if they do not know what to do. and they are happy now, despite the bugs.
I am not, but i made for those who are. I am not going to tell anyone to install it, i did only help, but i suggest nobody to install it.
It doesn't work and you know it. It's as if there was some paid software that people want, and you made a crack/patch for it, and then you say you don't advise using it. Do you really think people will stay away just because you advised so? No, they won't. In fact in that case your disclaimers make no difference whatsoever, you are equally at fault for making it available as they are for using it. Why do you think all anti-piracy companies always go after crack makers and distributors and not so much after users? I mean many crack makers also advise against using their cracks. But people are stupid and never listen, and in in the eyes of many crack makers are the original offenders.
Or if you want a different analogy - go find a mentally unstable person who can't really think straight (may seem offensive but noobs who want test builds on their phones clearly do not know what they're doing), then place a bottle of some drugs and a fresh needle within easy reach, and then tell them you advise not using it. Observe what happens.
IMO this kind of things are best dealt with preemptively, by not even making the potentially controversial stuff easily available.
you see, i've made first script of unlocking the boot a year ago. a lot of peole thanked me. they were happy - they unlocked once and than used other ways to change the firmware. They were noobs, but happy noobs. 18 000 downloads (i think some of them were same persons, for example me - while i was testing, or when i was unlocking for my friends), but only 4!!! broken phones. 2 of them caused by bad motherboard and 2 of them by ignoring the manual and all the warnings.
This one is more easy one. less questins. less work. just use it.
and if person already have unlocked boot there will be no problem with this FW
and i want to mention it again some users are happy enought with this fw. Some do not have reboots, some have but for them it is ok.
You should tell everyone that this is a very alpha rom. It does run without multiple reboots for most people per the forums. I personally have tried all methods and cannot get it to run.
I appreciate your efforts but this is not something that noobs will get any value from. You should be very clear upfront.
Sent from my MB860 using xda app-developers app
agurzhiy said:
hello, i've made an Automated Atrix ThatRom Installer.
This script will help noobs to do everything without any troubles.
The file is a rar archive with all firmware files + installer.
With best regards
the_fly
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Click to collapse
Thanks agurzhiy!
I am a proud noob who used your unlock script and will use this one.
For all the pros which have a problem with this- you have the same approach as Motorola - "It's complicated you can't understand this". It's my choice what to do with my phone and agurzhiy providing us noobs with a possibility to participate in the effort to make it better.
The bottom line is instead of criticize why don't you spend this time and energy on creating and helping the community. Remember you were ones noobs too.
Sent from my MB860 using xda app-developers app
e07015 said:
You should tell everyone that this is a very alpha rom. It does run without multiple reboots for most people per the forums. I personally have tried all methods and cannot get it to run.
I appreciate your efforts but this is not something that noobs will get any value from. You should be very clear upfront.
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i think everyone knows that it is alpha rom. nobody is going to install a script if if nobody knows what's inside. But i will add that it is alpha
ComX said:
For all the pros which have a problem with this- you have the same approach as Motorola - "It's complicated you can't understand this".
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You're missing my point entirely here. But that's okay. I don't want to argue anymore.
Is this just a fastboot script or an bootloader unlocker and ram fix etc etc
ravilov said:
You're missing my point entirely here. But that's okay. I don't want to argue anymore.
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I do not think that this is an argument. It is more like sharing different views on a subject.
I know what you mean, you want to prevent (or at least warn) noobs from taking the risk of bricking their phone and you are right 100%. But let me ask you how many of XDA readers are dumb enough to download some thing like this without reading at least a bit about it(*). Give ppl a little credit, most of us will stop on red light although it is possible to continue. Take me for example: I wanted to use nebtop but had a difficulty to understand how to root. Than mramirezusa came out with Automatic bootloader for noobs like me and boom - now I'm using the atrix as a streamer and without this tool I couldn't do this on my own. My point is that having a possibility to do stuff is highly appreciated.
* Ryan Dunn: If You Gonna be Dumb - You Gotta Be Tough.
this is a fastboot script to make it faster and easyer for a noob
UPDATE:
added the 32 bit version for x86 Windows
agurzhiy said:
UPDATE:
added the 32 bit version for x86 Windows
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Dude, you've only been thanked here 7 times... Stop thinking so highly of yourself.
Unless you are going to stick around the forums helping these guys out when they have issues with your release, because they won't have anywhere else to go, and because other devs are busy with their own stuff, than you should probably refrain from posting anything that makes it easier to flash dangerous software.
Unless you're willing to help "guy xyz" (since quotes seem to be in) on "page 74" when he asks again, "why am i having video issues after flash", because your main post lacks important details and explanation and your web link is not multi-lingual, please refrain from posting content which could be perceived as harmful to use.
Any good software community recommends first releasing to a smaller test group in order to work out major bugs and minimize any potential impact the software may have on the device... And, any good service community would recommend first releasing to a smaller test group in order to create a base to compare full deployment scenarios against... In no cases would they make it easy to install buggy software on devices of users who can not adequately report issues during alpha stages of software.
Why is it so hard to understand how that applies here?
Zeljko1234 said:
IMO, you should stop spending so much time here on the forum arguing with people. Don't get me wrong but your posts are usually quite offensive (example what I saw today). You post almost in every thread, smartassing noobs, playing to be moderator... If you know something, share it, if post or thread is against the rules, report it.
Now you're arguing with guy who made first script of unlocking the bootloader and in the same time insinuate that many of xda members are just dump.
Forum, especially xda, is about sharing knowledge not giving useless advise/comment or to google it.
P.S.
Sorry everyone for off topic.
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We try not to feed him, Zeljko1234... Just let him be.
Your point is well deserved; but don't feed the trolls.
knigitz said:
Dude, you've only been thanked here 7 times... Stop thinking so highly of yourself.
Unless you are going to stick around the forums helping these guys out when they have issues with your release, because they won't have anywhere else to go, and because other devs are busy with their own stuff, than you should probably refrain from posting anything that makes it easier to flash dangerous software.
Unless you're willing to help "guy xyz" (since quotes seem to be in) on "page 74" when he asks again, "why am i having video issues after flash", because your main post lacks important details and explanation and your web link is not multi-lingual, please refrain from posting content which could be perceived as harmful to use.
Any good software community recommends first releasing to a smaller test group in order to work out major bugs and minimize any potential impact the software may have on the device... And, any good service community would recommend first releasing to a smaller test group in order to create a base to compare full deployment scenarios against... In no cases would they make it easy to install buggy software on devices of users who can not adequately report issues during alpha stages of software.
Why is it so hard to understand how that applies here?
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Why don't you argue with epinter or any other person who put ThatRom?
Why are you arguing with me?
i made the thing easier, but i am not responsible for the uncomplete software. some people are lazy to use fastboot, but they know how to use it (i have flashed my phone 3 times while testing some of options to find out how it works)
other do not have enough knowledge to flash, but it's thair dream to have it, they are ready for the bugs and they alwas can ask me to help them to flash any other FW. And if they have unlocked boot - they can use CWM.
And the last group - the people who are just afraid to install after a lot of information about locking bootloaders. In russian community forums i've read 10 such questions from people who i know, from people who know how to use fastboot.
And if person do not want to install it - he may not install it!
I'm thankful to everyone who share knowledge. Even if I don't use everything, I usually download or read just to learn how. Without such guys, Internet itself will be mostly useless.
Do not blame anyone (especially epinter) for your mistake. He and many others guys spend a lot of their private time to figure how to do something, developing, supporting... and then sahre for free! As I can see, very rare they get donation. Almost never for the most loudest complainers which just wait that someone else will do something for them.
As I explained, as long as you are willing to stick around and help people with issues they encounter after flashing this, and provide more detailed instructions that people can read in your first post, it's not an issue.
Low thank count makes the more seasoned members cringe, as people release stuff that brick phones then disappear (it happens), leaving the community in a state of unrest trying to figure out the full impact of an unmaintained release, how many users were affected by the release, and a common way to fix the issues, and it leaves it up to other developers to explain to every xyz person to read this thread, read that thread, or flash this to fix.
Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2