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I was looking for a couple of threads that I had recently bookmarked to go back to later on only to find that they weren't bookmarked anymore. I spent almost an hour searching for them only to find the one specific thread in the trash. No warning or reason was given. Why was this done? I can understand if it's a thread with only a single post or perhaps even one that has become outdated (like a Cupcake release date thread) but why a thread that has 4 pages of information for a topic that doesn't have any reference for it already? Isn't this going to just create more new threads? More e-mails? More questions? Isn't this defeating the purpose of posting a new thread about a topic that hasn't been posted or stickied, if it is just going to be deleted?
If you look in the trash you will find SEVERAL Dream threads. In fact... just on the first page HALF (TEN out of TWENTY) are from the Dream thread! So just to clearify... of the dozens of different threads for different phones half of all trash is for the G1??? Isn't the trash supposed to be for SPAM?
How are these spam (just from the first page)???
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=525564
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=524956
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=519591
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=525034
There are a few more of course but I can understand because most of the questions have been answerered and it would be faster and easier if these people used the search feature. But some haven't been. (example)
Instead of deleting the threads... merge them. But of course you get stuck with a 500+ page thread that MOST people will not read all the way through to see if the question they are about to ask has been asked/answered already. Which is of course why they post a new thread but guess what? It gets deleted and so another thread gets posted. It's never ending and I realize that this must be hard work for the mods.
So what to do?
I propose that instead of deleting these threads without reason or warning, to PM the original poster of the thread to ask of the significance of it and to provide a legitimate reason and purpose for it. Otherwise give warning or notice of the possible deletion. Of course this does not exempt the threads that are posting warez, copyright infringements and other obvious violations of memberships.
This is only my opinion and I hope that I have made an interesting point or two about this matter.
Look at the Sticky "Tough Love Moderation Alert". Basically the admins will lock/delete threads they think duplicate or off topic. I can't say as I agree with their method (no explanation) but there is a need to keep the threads under control. The development forum is the worst of the problem area but all the Dream forums have some abusers.
On the other hand it is leading to silly thread titles "[ONLY] something [ONLY]" (which is silly since people who would have posted off topic before still will) and confusion as well as "What happened to my last post" threads. Time will tell if their methods achieve their goal.
JanetPanic said:
Look at the Sticky "Tough Love Moderation Alert". Basically the admins will lock/delete threads they think duplicate or off topic. I can't say as I agree with their method (no explanation) but there is a need to keep the threads under control. The development forum is the worst of the problem area but all the Dream forums have some abusers.
On the other hand it is leading to silly thread titles "[ONLY] something [ONLY]" (which is silly since people who would have posted off topic before still will) and confusion as well as "What happened to my last post" threads. Time will tell if their methods achieve their goal.
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Yeah... okay. I agree that some of the most annoying problems with the dream thread is that people do post in the ROM Development thread. But is deleting so much easier then moving to the "Dream" thread? If so, does it out weight the inconvenience of the possiblity of the same question being reposted because it was unable to be found by the search feature?
Say this post gets deleted... and it likely will be... and someone else notices the same issue... and they search to see if this has been posted. Will they find it? No. Because hardly anyone looks in the trash. So what do they do? They post it as a new thread. So what happens? A mod goes in and deletes that post. And it repeats over and over again until the mods stop deleting the posts. Then what? Nothing. The post stays and maybe even grows. Is it really a bother that a thread is over a month old and hasn't had any recent posts? Does it really bother anyone? Of course not! They just ignore it, right? So why go through all the trouble to delete it? Some of the threads in the trash are still useful and there is absolutely no harm in keeping it in the proper catagories (ie Dream, Applications, Themes, etc).
Any mod that simply deletes a useful and recently commented thread because it was mistakenly posted under the wrong catgory instead of simply moving it, is just lazy in my own personal opinion and is doing more harm then good. Again... just my opinion.
Binary100100 said:
Say this post gets deleted... and it likely will be... and someone else notices the same issue... and they search to see if this has been posted. Will they find it? No. Because hardly anyone looks in the trash. So what do they do? They post it as a new thread. So what happens? A mod goes in and deletes that post. And it repeats over and over again until the mods stop deleting the posts. Then what? Nothing. The post stays and maybe even grows.
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That doesn't indicate that what the mods are doing is necessarily wrong, it means that new members continue to disregard the rules (posting already answered questions, posting in wrong forum, etc).
That said, I think the mods need to reevaluate how and when they do thread merges. The form of discussion in forums like these tend to be "conversation" centric. However, the threads are presented in a flat format (by default). That means that merging two threads of identical or similar topics will cause their conversations to intermix, with disastrous results. People already have piss-poor reading skills as it is.
What do you expect the moderators to do? We didn't give them a choice. The Dream forums are out of control and it would take the 3 or 4 moderators for these forums 8 hours a day not being paid to police it. You want someone to blame? Blame your fellow XDA members because there are only 2 solutions for this problem:
Get more moderators to baby sit the forums or increase the quality of posting within the Dream forums. The later is what we need here and what the moderators are hoping for.
Edit: And honestly, I think this is the best method. Do we have the potential for losing good information? Yes. This is how you teach the multitudes of Dream posters that there are consequences for being ignorant. Being stupid is not an excuse.
It is pretty annoying how the Dream thread has exploded and that the same questions just keep on cropping up. When I reply I do try to either re-direct them to my signature (which has the basic links to Dude's ROM, SPL, Apps2SD, Radio etc), teach them how to search with the actual result or just point them to the right direction.
However with 500+ pages or whatever, it can become a chore for newbies to read though, even if 70% of the info is in the first page.
I did recommend to the mods that the Dream section needs cleaning up, with a dedicated sub forum purely for the established (or popular) cooked ROMs. So underneath the Dream Dev sub-forum is another just for JF, Dude, Cyanogen, Haykuro etc. That should remove quite a lot of traffic and usual questions then from what is supposed to be a general development thread for other matters.
Then I would suggest a much more organised and up to date FAQ in such a sub-forum which covers all of the same questions that get asked daily. Any such questions that get asked in any of the ROM forums would then be re-directed to the FAQ.
Most of us I'm sure have come from large forums (lik-sang, avsfoums, etc) and know how to search, read etc but many newer members don't, be it due to lack of effort etc. However I'm sure there are many genuine new members who are willing to learn that only need a nudge in the right direction. Simply blocking them off by trashing, linking them only to the search page etc isn't helpful and won't generate a positive community.
I would put myself forward to help moderate the Dream section but I know that zero mod positions are available at the moment, but I do agree with the OP that trashing isn't always the solution.
NeoBlade said:
linking them only to the search page etc isn't helpful and won't generate a positive community.
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The main problem is that for the veterans who have been here since Sept/Oct 2008, everything more or less makes sense because they have seen it evolve to its current state. It's a lot like a guy who lives in a very very messy room who can still find the book buried under a pile of empty ramen cups and dirty laundry. Thus its easy to say "use the search!" in response to any newbie query. That said, from the first-timer newbie perspective, there are a few problems: 1) A lot of information crammed into two poorly organized subforums. 2) A lot of information is outdated and is superseded or contradicts newer information. 3) Some of the sticky threads have very poorly written or maintained first posts.
Sticky threads are not a very good way to store information for general consumption, unless the original poster is a very good communicator and also vigilantly updates the first post with concise information from the entire thread, no matter how long it is. Of the former sticky posts, few actually meet that standard. The ideal format for information conveyance is wiki, but then there is the disconnection between the wiki and active development. In other words, people don't like to move back and forth between the wiki and the forum.
I know what you mean jashu, I love my "organised mess" at home ^_^
It does take effort alright in keeping threads on topic and up to date, I remember when administrating the TokyoToys forum (I since had to close it, joint decision by myself and the owner) and also organising events for fans and people alike to meet up and have fun, took effort and more often enough without any recognition as well which can get discouraging.
Certainly if the OP kept his or her first post updated often enough with information it will keep questions down to a minimum however I still approve of a well made FAQ which is stickied. It then becomes a focal point as any FAQ should. I'm actually in the middle of writing one myself and once its done and the people concerned are happy with it, I would be happy to post it here too.
Ideally a wiki would be best because its user editable however I had a look at the XDA wiki and it does need a bit of TLC.
I will qualify my statement in that I come from the standpoint as an administrator in a prominent Linux forum that gets more posts in an hour in than the Dream forums get in a day. I firmly believe that draconian administration is not the answer and makes the forum far less pleasant to use. I think of administration as keeping things civil and posts in the right forum more than controlling creation of threads. Forcing the organization into a few mammoth threads is not any better than letting users create new threads without rules.
The developers forum is a bit of a mess and completely left to its own it would be worse than it is. The Development forum is not really about development anymore though. It more of a "custom ROM" forum. It is rare that I see an actual post on development on the android platform. Since the primary topic on the forum is custom ROMs the support questions for said ROMs get put in the development forum and generates a mess. Creating a ROM forum would just shift the mess, so I am not sure that would be better.
I think eventually the newbies who are flooding the forum with threads that could be answered by searching will either go away or learn to search. The current choice of administration is not educating the newbies though, it is just forcing them to learn. Regardless of how any of us users feel about the subject though the administrators have made their choice on how to deal with the Dream sub-forums. We are just along for the ride.
The thought that scares me more than any other is that the flood of newbies up to this stage could be just the tip of the iceburg. XDA-Dev before the last year or so was a forum for a fairly small group of people who generally know how to deal with their own problems. Lately the number of users with limited technical ability and desire have been increasing. This is partly due to the ease of having the Android platform, partly due to the fact that smart phones in general (including iPhone) are becoming much more mainstream. If android truly takes off on HTC phones then either the users will have to be forceful to new users to get them into line fast or the philosophy of the XDA-dev forums itself will need to change. Linux forums have a reputation for rude users, this is largely due to the veterans being unforgiving to repeated questions. Harsh but it does work over time.
JanetPanic said:
The thought that scares me more than any other is that the flood of newbies up to this stage could be just the tip of the iceburg. XDA-Dev before the last year or so was a forum for a fairly small group of people who generally know how to deal with their own problems. Lately the number of users with limited technical ability and desire have been increasing. This is partly due to the ease of having the Android platform, partly due to the fact that smart phones in general (including iPhone) are becoming much more mainstream. If android truly takes off on HTC phones then either the users will have to be forceful to new users to get them into line fast or the philosophy of the XDA-dev forums itself will need to change.
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This and the fact that it's brand spanking new. Give it time and the kids will find something new to play with and move on while the people that give a rats arse (us) will be left behind. I've seen it time and time again on car forums. This isn't any different. The first 6 months is bliss. The following 1-2 years is absolute hell. Then comes the volume drop off and the true development. I've all for tough love but it's not like the tide is ever going to stop. We are just going to have to wait it out.
There's always methods in dealing with issues and I do agree that its more of a ROM section than Development thesedays... Hence in my opinion it would be better off having a ROM section for such people to post on, which will clear up for people actually developling or helping to improve the android platform - Most notibly the Bluetooth OBEX support.
This isn't the fastest forum I've seen or been involved in in terms of volumes of posts, however it is getting to the point where re-structuring and possibly more moderators are needed to help ease the burden. When a large number of people register and start being active, it is often the best time to set an example and indeed set and establish a community where people help people - Be it to simple things as pointing them to the right direction to much more techinical issues.
Without the ethos to help each other, where would open source be?
Granted I know nothing about Linux myself and couldn't code to save my life but I do enjoy the technical discussions that take place. A lot of this is lost with the usual questions that get asked, hence the need for a more up to date FAQ. Tough love is needed but I believe with the right organisation, it shouldn't have to be the only answer.
uberingram said:
This and the fact that it's brand spanking new. Give it time and the kids will find something new to play with and move on while the people that give a rats arse (us) will be left behind. I've seen it time and time again on car forums. This isn't any different. The first 6 months is bliss. The following 1-2 years is absolute hell. Then comes the volume drop off and the true development. I've all for tough love but it's not like the tide is ever going to stop. We are just going to have to wait it out.
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the G1 is the new sidekick. and the sidekick was such a fad and trend for kids to use as a phone. the hip hop and celebrity community did well in terms of marketing the sidekick to the mainstream public as being a "your not cool if you don't have one of these" items. also the emo/scene kids are all about what the "in" things and fads are, so that highly popularized the sidekick as well.
and now since the G1 came out, most of the people that got a sidekick for those particular reasons mentioned above, are now "upgrading" to the next newer cooler big thing.... the G1.
young people love to follow trends, fads, and what's cool at the moment.
right now, the G1 is just that.
it's a double edge for Android and the G1. the popularity is one of the key things needed to make Android and the G1 a success. but with popularity comes a lot riff raff and criticism that is not welcomed so well. but i digress lol
i just hope the sidekick comes out with a touchscreen version or something, so the kids have something new shiny to play with haha
Not owned a sidekick before but then I presume its more popular in the USA than it is in the UK? I moved to the G1 after my Nokia N95. Got impatient waiting for the N97 so made the jump and thanks to the incomplete stock OS, I was tempted to move back to my N95 until JF released his research, Haykuro and Dude. Now it feels more complete with only a few things missing.
Back on topic though, the place isn't as bad as it could be but since this is more a development forum to begin with and not a social based one, just a few tweaks here and there would help newbies a little.
NeoBlade said:
Not owned a sidekick before but then I presume its more popular in the USA than it is in the UK? I moved to the G1 after my Nokia N95. Got impatient waiting for the N97 so made the jump and thanks to the incomplete stock OS, I was tempted to move back to my N95 until JF released his research, Haykuro and Dude. Now it feels more complete with only a few things missing.
Back on topic though, the place isn't as bad as it could be but since this is more a development forum to begin with and not a social based one, just a few tweaks here and there would help newbies a little.
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ohhh i have an idea...
like when you sign up you pick the phone and platform you use then instantly redirects the new member to a FAQ or pertinent threads associated to their liking of phone and platform and at the same time directly email them a link to those FAQ and whatnot.
NeoBlade said:
Not owned a sidekick before but then I presume its more popular in the USA than it is in the UK?.
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Yeah, it's just how mrcrs described it. The Sidekick became quite the fashion accessory model when celebrities started picking them up. They are pictured all over the tabloids and mentioned a lot of times in up-start musician's songs. I doubt very much that it would have panned out this way if T-Mobile released the SideKick 3G before the G1 but then again, T-Mobile needed a victory and a halo phone really fast.
That would take a fair amount of modification to the forum files to do (I've done my fair share of phpBB, phpBB Plus, IPB etc) and also is on the pretence that every single mobile has a suitable FAQ to begin with.
And easier way and modification to the forum could be to send a general stock welcoming PM along with a reminder to search and any additional helpful links within. That is, if XDA wants to go down that route.
NeoBlade said:
That would take a fair amount of modification to the forum files to do (I've done my fair share of phpBB, phpBB Plus, IPB etc) and also is on the pretence that every single mobile has a suitable FAQ to begin with.
And easier way and modification to the forum could be to send a general stock welcoming PM along with a reminder to search and any additional helpful links within. That is, if XDA wants to go down that route.
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whenever i join forums and in my inbox i get a message automatically, which is usually from the forum itself, i usually disregard it because all it is a "welcome to xyz forums... yada yada yada... enjoy your time here"
i usually don't open and read it, delete it then... go wreck havoc on finding out the information i want to know or read about. but that's just me
JanetPanic said:
This is partly due to the ease of having the Android platform, partly due to the fact that smart phones in general (including iPhone) are becoming much more mainstream. If android truly takes off on HTC phones then either the users will have to be forceful to new users to get them into line fast or the philosophy of the XDA-dev forums itself will need to change.
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To get a glimpse of where Dream/Magic forum is headed, just look at the xda Winmo forums. "Development" in this case basically just means rom customization. It's already pretty much at that state here too. Of course if Android fulfills its promise of being a mainstream smartphone OS, there will be many more newbies here than there ever were on the Winmo forums (you don't see many kids rocking Touch Diamonds).
Linux forums have a reputation for rude users, this is largely due to the veterans being unforgiving to repeated questions. Harsh but it does work over time.
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IMO there's nothing wrong with being a bit curt, especially in the "development" forum. This isn't an interactive tutorial, a hand-holding journey. Too many people seem to get the idea that the unsupported hacks enabled by rooting can be generalized and simplified for mass-market consumption. That kind of thinking is faulty and the resulting bad publicity may jeopardize the Android hacking community on the whole.
The problem is that in most cases, being rude only keeps away users who had initial reservations and cautions to rooting-- precisely the kind of user who actually might take the time to indepedently and/or responsibly learn how to do things properly.
jashsu said:
To get a glimpse of where Dream/Magic forum is headed, just look at the xda Winmo forums. "Development" in this case basically just means rom customization. It's already pretty much at that state here too. Of course if Android fulfills its promise of being a mainstream smartphone OS, there will be many more newbies here than there ever were on the Winmo forums (you don't see many kids rocking Touch Diamonds).
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I have been here since 2005 with the Blue Angel (then the Wizard, Jam, Magician, and the Artemis). Eventually XDA started dedicating a subforum to ROMs with the general development thread up top for WinMo development. The Dream right now just has the one combined forum. Another difference is that the ROM threads in Dream seem to grow faster than I remember on the WinMo threads. I am not sure what the difference is, maybe that usually there are a couple debug threads that die out which in the Dream forum is discouraged. Regardless the rapid posting makes it harder to keep up with more than one ROM.
jashsu said:
IMO there's nothing wrong with being a bit curt, especially in the "development" forum. This isn't an interactive tutorial, a hand-holding journey. Too many people seem to get the idea that the unsupported hacks enabled by rooting can be generalized and simplified for mass-market consumption. That kind of thinking is faulty and the resulting bad publicity may jeopardize the Android hacking community on the whole.
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I agree, well put.
jashsu said:
The problem is that in most cases, being rude only keeps away users who had initial reservations and cautions to rooting-- precisely the kind of user who actually might take the time to indepedently and/or responsibly learn how to do things properly.
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Good point as well.
Okay firstly this is what jaxouk wrote:
I have read many posts where people are asking which is the best rom for my device (and have done myself) only to get abrupt replies with something like "how dare you ask this, chefs put a lot of effort into each rom and its down to personal preferance blah blah" ................"THREAD CLOSED"
Does every one think think this is the best way for xda to be run or is there other people that think this should be allowed to be debated? I know this is originally a developer forum, however I would hazard a guess that there is now more public users that devolpers.
The thing is developers develope roms and yes certainly they put a lot of time and effort into it and are respected rightly so for it. however can the end user really be expected not to be allowed to discuss these roms on the forum only to be told the above mensioned things. It happens time and again over and over. People like myself (the end user) do not have time to flash every rom to find the ones they like. (its a days setting up for myself after a flash) and if its crap (which there is no denying. some are) its a day wasted.
What I think the forum needs is a "ROM USER REVIEW" section where people like myself can go and rate a rom for other users referance.
Surely this is the key to better roms. If one developers rom is poor hes going to be able to see that its poor and will/might take the user rating / comments on board and the next time try harder.... ultimately producing a better rom.
Competition is what makes better products, If handset manufacturers took the same stance as xda we would be waiting for the realease of the o2 xda 2s later this year. and this is the same in all industries.
Okay so firstly Spot on and totally agree with you which as we all can see the majority of members using XDA agree with too.
Secondly this is what itje wrote who is a Moderator here:
I closed this thread, due to the same reason all the others that are similar all over xda are closed on sight.
These kind of threads usualy/always ends up in disputes and flamewars, there is always some hotheaded ppl who burst into flames when someone dont have the same view as they do.
So... sorry, yeah we close
So basically what you are saying is we as members are not allowed to treat XDA as a discussion forum as well as a Developer Forum? I thought the whole meaning to the word Forum, was for people to discuss there DIFFERENT opinions and have certain disputes with one another.
Sorry if people dont agree with this and please tell me why but I just think its silly that a mod would close a thread incase someone shouts and god forbid have an opinion.
Let me know what you guys think
It´s realy funny, when new user come to this forum and try to tell the old, experienced user, how the forum should go. I sometimes need to laugh about those statements but there are times i only want cry
I´m 100% agree with the Moderators (cause they are Moderators ). If you spend some more time around here, you will see how this forum works. Just use it, don´t complain.
I wasnt telling anyone how to run THIS forum I was basically explaining to everyone how a forum is normally run, if this is the way everyone likes it then fine but looking through 100's of posts and topics around here all I see is members and "noobs" getting put down from the likes of you.
crazy cat said:
It´s realy funny, when new user come to this forum and try to tell the old, experienced user, how the forum should go. I sometimes need to laugh about those statements but there are times i only want cry
I´m 100% agree with the Moderators (cause they are Moderators ). If you spend some more time around here, you will see how this forum works. Just use it, don´t complain.
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me no understand
This has been explained again and again.
Personal and objective opinions are not allowed here. So if you can't make your own judgement on which ROM's to use you might want to stick to the stock ROM. Or The best thing to do is setup your own personal blog for these types of things. Then you can say what you want.
This will be another thread closed soon i feel.
It's impossible to determine what 'the best rom' would be...
Some ppl love a transparent clock, others hate it.
Same with the slider bar.
Same with themes.
Some ppl love a windows build with the start button on the top, some ppl love it with the button on the bottom.
Some ppl love to have a crapload of apps installed, some ppl hate it.
Some ppl love to have the newest unstable build, some ppl want the secure and stable one.
I might love a rom and you might hate it, the only objective criteria is how stable a rom is but even that can be debated. So you just have to try, see what works for you and go from there.
thread closed (i wish)
i have no problem myself with people arguing about something, even when things are heating. i am more then capable to defend myself
you know what they say - when the going gets tough, the though gets going
it is clear that general policy of this forum will not allow this kind of debate
what i am suggesting is something i saw on othe forums:
a special place with a big warnig ENTER ON YOUR OWN RISK, or something like that
this special place is organised as a battle place where every user can call out another user on a subject and then they have a public "battle". the other users are the public and in the end they choose which of the fighters is the winner
here the rules are somehow loose and mods only came in when things are realy degenerate - curses, personal insults, family offense, etc.
bottom line - i, personaly, would allow topics about best roms, best apps, best whatever, and when people cross the line i would suggest them to cool down on the battle field
this can be a stupid ideea, but maybe something like that will help users to get off the presure somewhere and then to disscuss cool and polite the subjects they are interested in
regards
noris08 said:
i have no problem myself with people arguing about something, even when things are heating. i am more then capable to defend myself
you know what they say - when the going gets tough, the though gets going
it is clear that general policy of this forum will not allow this kind of debate
what i am suggesting is something i saw on othe forums:
a special place with a big warnig ENTER ON YOUR OWN RISK, or something like that
this special place is organised as a battle place where every user can call out another user on a subject and then they have a public "battle". the other users are the public and in the end they choose which of the fighters is the winner
here the rules are somehow loose and mods only came in when things are realy degenerate - curses, personal insults, family offense, etc.
bottom line - i, personaly, would allow topics about best roms, best apps, best whatever, and when people cross the line i would suggest them to cool down on the battle field
this can be a stupid ideea, but maybe something like that will help users to get off the presure somewhere and then to disscuss cool and polite the subjects they are interested in
regards
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Another problem with this kind of thing is you will have people come to this thread and ***** and complain about a particular ROM instead of the original ROM thread. The truth be known many of the problems users face are due to them not following instruction or due to some other incompatible software there are trying to use and then they blame their problems on the ROM creator. The down side to this is a thread like this will only open up negative criticism of a ROM and cause harm to the cook that maybe unjust. Not to mention that the problems need to be kept within the ROM threads in order to better improve the ROM's.
I understand what people want and this is why I made the statement to open your own blog or site to do these things and then link to here.
i have to agree. cooker cooks a rom and we rate it. if it was just "cook, post, upload, thread closed" in res of the world then everyone would buy apple, but cause its the information age we need to know what is what and where is where.
this should be even more seen here on "professional" forum like xda-developers.
i totaly agree with OP.
@bazgee: saying that 'noobs' shouldnt talk.. makes you so much more a 'noob'. your ass wasn't born smart and so wasn't OPs.
bobsbbq said:
Another problem with this kind of thing is you will have people come to this thread and ***** and complain about a particular ROM instead of the original ROM thread.
....
The down side to this is a thread like this will only open up negative criticism of a ROM and cause harm to the cook that maybe unjust. Not to mention that the problems need to be kept within the ROM threads in order to better improve the ROM's.
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This is what forums are for!! To ASK, and to ANSWER!!
Edit; I'm not going to say something, post removed.
Really, is it *that* hard to understand there is *no* best ROM? They are all different!
It's apples vs oranges. It can't be compared. If your imagination needs a bit of help, look up consoles vs PCs, or PS3 vs x360 threads. Have you ever seen one not turn into a massive flamefest? ... exactly!
If you want to make sure a ROM working, check the last 2-3 pages of ROMs thread to see if there are people complaining.
Developers Forum?
The notion that this is a developers forum is a myth anyway. The end users play a massive role in here, determining bugs, requesting new features or feature removal and indeed critiquing the ROM within its own thread.
The idea that WW3 will break out if we allow dedicated discussion threads seems a bit weak to me. I've seen heated discussions in ROM threads and they never became more than that.
I'm sure it is more to do with protecting the ROM developers so that the ones who's ROMs may be bottom of the pile don't walk away, which is fair enough.
But from some people there is an all around lack of respect on this forum for the general user who do that deepest broadest testing, offer wirespread feedback and go a long way to making the ROM's what they are today.
And do not forget - if these folks weren't here to download the ROM's, how many chefs do you think would be here to cook them! Both sides need each other. I don't doubt the chefs get a kick from giving people what they want.
The moderators don't 'need' to do anything (We will all be here anyway) but if they have some respect then they should take on board and accomodate what appears to be the opinion of a vast number of users.
I'm sure there is some middle ground somewhere if we try and look ....
Really, is it *that* hard to understand there is *no* best ROM? They are all different!
That is not the case. There are roms that are the fastest, Roms that are the smoothest, Roms that have the best landscape support, Roms with the best apps to suit needs amongst others. Certainly if you try and make one overall top ten then it is going to be a lucky dip, but nobody suggested that.
It's apples vs oranges. It can't be compared. If your imagination needs a bit of help, look up consoles vs PCs, or PS3 vs x360 threads. Have you ever seen one not turn into a massive flamefest? ... exactly!
I'm not sure consolve vs PC is quite the same a comparing different ROMs as they have the same hardware, similar architecture, purpose etc Your also getting a little needlesly condescending now ;-)
If you want to make sure a ROM working, check the last 2-3 pages of ROMs thread to see if there are people complaining.
This is good advice for bug testing but does not offer any more constructive information on the whole.
mwillems2 said:
Really, is it *that* hard to understand there is *no* best ROM? They are all different!
That is not the case. There are roms that are the fastest, Roms that are the smoothest, Roms that have the best landscape support, Roms with the best apps to suit needs amongst others. Certainly if you try and make one overall top ten then it is going to be a lucky dip, but nobody suggested that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How exactly they are not different then? There is no two exactly same ROMs, with exactly same aims and objectives of a cook over here. Reading ROM description tells you exactly what the rom does and what the cook aims to achieve.
As an example; some ROMs have custom themes, some roms use MaxManilla, some use stock, some use something completely different. You can't quantify what's better. It's personal preference.
You can't possibly quantify 'best apps to suit needs' as everyone has different needs. As I said apples vs oranges.
If you want to make sure a ROM working, check the last 2-3 pages of ROMs thread to see if there are people complaining.
This is good advice for bug testing but does not offer any more constructive information on the whole.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Again, I'm trying to understand what are you on about, but I can't. What is constructive information according to you?
You have ROM description on the first page, you can check the last few if there are any issues with it. What else do you want?
[/QUOTE]
i agree what bobsbbq said ,is not fair to say that this rom is good and this rom is better but if you try the other rom is far more better,is dissrespectul from the chefs trying to help you guys having best rom's avialible and to open another thread to say things like that is bad,so for me i choose my own judgement and would not ask others wich rom is best,so this thread is closed
mwillems2 said:
The notion that this is a developers forum is a myth anyway.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're saying this like it is somehow an acceptable, or possibly even a good thing. It is not.
It's true that this forum is now visited by people who:
cannot be bothered to read the first post of any thread
have no intention of educating themselves, only blindly consuming
will shamelessly ***** and make demands about things they are getting for free
These people do not make the community "better" in any way, and this kind of behaviour should not be tolerated in my view.
mwillems2 said:
The idea that WW3 will break out if we allow dedicated discussion threads seems a bit weak to me. I've seen heated discussions in ROM threads and they never became more than that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Heated discussions in themselves do not need to escalate any further. They are already a waste of everybody's time, and have no place here.
mwillems2 said:
But from some people there is an all around lack of respect on this forum for the general user who do that deepest broadest testing, offer wirespread feedback and go a long way to making the ROM's what they are today.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm relatively sure the user who is seriously interested in testing and reporting is not in need of a completely seperate thread to voice their opinion on which ROM is somehow "best". For testers it's not constructive to voice opinions about a ROM in any other thread than the original ROM thread.
mwillems2 said:
And do not forget - if these folks weren't here to download the ROM's, how many chefs do you think would be here to cook them! Both sides need each other. I don't doubt the chefs get a kick from giving people what they want.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not so sure about that. I've seen plenty of chefs say that they basically cook for themselves, and just like to share. Even if they are cooking for the community, they do not need people to praise or diss their ROM's in any other thread than their own.
Overall, I feel the biggest problem with having a centralized ROM discussion thread is the intented audience: people who cannot be bothered to test and compare by themselves, people who cannot be bothered to read individual ROM threads.
What would be the point in creating a new thread for these people? Once it gets beyond 1 page, they will not bothered to read it anyway.
for me personally these "top 20s" don't have any value whatsoever but i understand why so many people want them. some of them are just lazy and want to avoid to read the threads, others are not able to think for themselves and need to be told what is good or bad for them and there are those who want to become famous reviewers.
for cryin' out loud, don't fix what is not broken! this forum is perfect as it is. moderators, don't let the comorades tell you what to do!
Volw said:
How exactly they are not different then? There is no two exactly same ROMs, with exactly same aims and objectives of a cook over here. Reading ROM description tells you exactly what the rom does and what the cook aims to achieve.
As an example; some ROMs have custom themes, some roms use MaxManilla, some use stock, some use something completely different. You can't quantify what's better. It's personal preference.
You can't possibly quantify 'best apps to suit needs' as everyone has different needs. As I said apples vs oranges.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think is better we not make comparative, believe it is better for all!!
but if you say it is impossible to compare among themselves the Rom, you're wrong!
lol reopened.
anyway i belive this huld be discussed. we are here three levels of people. so this will need for 1st level, and 2nd level will be trying the roms and giving feed backs. so 3rd level always will be cooking and editing roms. just my opinion.
lets start the work.. i go for duttys HG V.08
Sorry for this question, but for some reason i cant post replies on X10 development sub-forum.
If any moderator can help me I will be thanked
You are a new member. You have to have at least 10 posts before posting in the development forum.
svetius said:
Important XDA Announcement Regarding New Users
Dear XDA Users,
Sorry for the long letter. Please read the whole thing if you're interested in some important upcoming changes to the site.
XDA is growing. There's really no way to avoid this. Smartphones are becoming ubiquitous. Android is soaring and Windows Phone is holding its own. By all measures, we have actually grown less than some of the other Smartphone-related sites out there. We're bigger just because we had a multi-year head start.
We are writing this because, like a lot of people, we constantly worry about the quality of posts on XDA. Some people suggest to us that quality has been deteriorating (or rather, the number of junk posts have been increasing), and honestly, maybe those people have a point. We want to make our developers feel at home. We want to make sure that good members of the community--those who offer to help and even those who respectfully ask for help--enjoy their time here. There is a cost of growth, and that cost is the crappy, rude posts that too often fill the forums.
No matter what we do, some people are going to complain, despite the best efforts of our fantastic moderator team. Some people want us to support all devices (actually, just the device they happen to have purchased yesterday); others want us to focus. Some people think the moderators have too much power; then they complain that certain forums are a mess. XDA has zero full-time employees. It's a massive challenge running this site, and we do the best we can.
Our stance is that we have a responsibility not to act as dictators. This is not our community... it is yours. We've debated shutting the site to new registrations. But really, what gives us the right to turn away the future generation of developers? We've debated adding fewer devices. But why should someone be turned from XDA just because they bought a Motorola phone instead of an HTC phone?
We've struggled for a long time thinking about how to solve the quality issues here. One way would be to constantly beg users to be nice to one another, always search before posting, etc, etc. We can try this, but realistically, this is the Internet; people act how they want to act.
So what's the plan? To make incremental changes that will hopefully impact XDA for the better. Our first change is this: only users with 10 posts (or more) will be allowed to post to any development-related forum. Users with 9 or fewer will be able to read, but not post. This change will happen within the next week. We hope it will dramatically cut down on the crap. It takes some small bit of effort to get to 10 posts on XDA. Hopefully those who make it to 10 are among the "better" users here. This will ONLY impact the development-related forums. All other forums will be open to everyone.
The good news: we might be a huge site, but we're a small team. If this change hurts XDA, we'll figure it out pretty quickly and revert back. If it helps, we'll work on other changes. My guess is that these small tweaks will make a big difference.
Thanks to everyone for reading. Happy 2011. And please, please, please be nice to one another =D
Thanks,
Admins and Mods
P.S. Want to discuss this?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah you cant reply because of that rule and remember unless your a dewveloper you shouldnt be starting a new thread there anyway
Another pissed of dev is clearly seems . Love using the surgeon.. was a lil tricky at first but worked a treat. And also people are using there work without no credit being given. Piss take as hyperdroid base is mega stable and has good features ...heres hoping he comes back... soon. He did kind of hint it at the end lol . What do yooooooou make of it.
looks like an iphone but powered by android baby!!!!
Hopefully the "team" (there's more than one man) are working on something good to come back with. I can completely understand why they closed it because the amount of lazy ass people that post in there looking for general support was a joke. They're nice people but there's a limit which has obviously been reached. We have a general section for general chit chat but people again are too lazy to use multiple fora to get what they require. Unfortunately the "user" will eventually ruin the "dev" focus of these forums.
In my opinion there should be a 100 post rule before you can even post in the developer forums. This would force the noobs top read the forums.
Sent from inside a black hole.
shr33kant said:
In my opinion there should be a 100 post rule before you can even post in the developer forums. This would force the noobs top read the forums.
Sent from inside a black hole.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
100% agreed. I'm sure it's been suggested before but always worth posting it in the support and feedback forum, go on you know you want to
Only backlash this would have is 100 posts elsewhere to get sufficient posts for them to plague the dev forums as they do now with the 10. It would possibly deter them though, anything's worth a try.
shr33kant said:
In my opinion there should be a 100 post rule before you can even post in the developer forums. This would force the noobs top read the forums.
Sent from inside a black hole.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi,
you should not lump together all newbies.
There are also the other one's, which read a lot and learn by doing.
Although I'm new to Android at all, I try to help where I can (it's not much..) and you won't find nooby questions. Because all one want to know is somewhere anwered here.
Maybe Dev's should set up 2 threads, one for Q&A with a faq at beginning, supported mostly by the "key users", and one only for dev-related matters (no answers to silly questions...)
Only my opinion of course...
Regards
Norbert
100 post rule is bull, ya no why because they will just make new threads and ask the dumb ass questions.
I'm not a noob either i been here abour 5 years and watch this place go down hill so fast over the past year. I used to spend hours in the Leo section answering posts as demon man and got fed up of it. It isnt just the new people pissing devs off its the mods also there part to blame with there lame ideas, most of them just jump on there high horse. yes I can totally understand why devs just give up but then you have the likes of codeworkx who will tell you you will get abuse if you ask stupid dumb ass questions and abuse he will give, yet the stupid questions are still asked.
It doesnt take 10 mins to find 90% of your answers on here although the search button is a load of gash imo stickies are the best answer of read a few pages back but nobody seems to wanna do that anymore, hell the day i got my leo and touch diamond i nearly fudged them for not reading but after half hour of reading and looking you can find your answer the best bet would be that new topics have to be moderated first instead of the same question all the time go through and see how many posts there have been in the past 2 weeks about people screwing there efs folder that should be a stickie imo in bold.
I've been using xda for several years. I never post anything as the answer always seem to be available already posted my someone else.
Recently XDA has been an increasingly unpleasant place to visit. People seem to be unable to read more than the last 2 threads, have any sense of how to be even slightly polite and have no concept of the hard work an generosity of those developing and sharing. If i was a dev i'd have taken my bat and ball home ages ago.
I'll go back to reading, and tinkering with my phone.
1 post nearer 100
Many thanks to all those who give so much. Especially Pongster and his team.
Xda was awesome back in the windows mobile days Devs and noobs were very humble,civil helpful. There was no competition among devs and everyone used to work together.
Since android has come in this place has pretty much gone downhill. It is all about fame,donations now.
No offence, just a general observation.
Cheers.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA App
noke955 said:
Hi,
you should not lump together all newbies.
There are also the other one's, which read a lot and learn by doing.
Although I'm new to Android at all, I try to help where I can (it's not much..) and you won't find nooby questions. Because all one want to know is somewhere anwered here.
Maybe Dev's should set up 2 threads, one for Q&A with a faq at beginning, supported mostly by the "key users", and one only for dev-related matters (no answers to silly questions...)
Only my opinion of course...
Regards
Norbert
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
2 threads seems good to me. .
looks like an iphone but powered by android baby!!!!
Extropy has hit the nail on the head. I couldn't agree more.
Lets hope something changes, It's no fault of Xda, it's just that over the last year Androids popularity has exploded, and thus the number of newcomers and freeloaders.
BUT what angers me is that for every so called "Annoying noob post" in the threads there are 10X responses from established members that are much more aggressive and rude in tone in comparison. I feel its quicker to help someone and guide them In a constructive way. It's annoying sure, but saves comeback questions, heated exchanges and tempers blowing up.
Something needs to change, but its going to be a tough one.
One things for sure, I've seen many Good devs leave, soon there will be threads with a lot more Kangs then there already are.
I hope this gets sorted.
Cheers guys
jaksau said:
Xda was awesome back in the windows mobile days Devs and noobs were very humble,civil helpful. There was no competition among devs and everyone used to work together.
Since android has come in this place has pretty much gone downhill. It is all about fame,donations now.
No offence, just a general observation.
Cheers.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Used to be a nice place to come back in the winmo days people answered questions civil and you learnt to read now everybody wants spoon feeding info.
jaksau said:
Xda was awesome back in the windows mobile days Devs and noobs were very humble,civil helpful. There was no competition among devs and everyone used to work together.
Since android has come in this place has pretty much gone downhill. It is all about fame,donations now.
No offence, just a general observation.
Cheers.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I disagree. Donations are fine in my opinion. I mean its hours spent trying to create something that everyone and yourself will like and share it for free. So a lil donation never hurts . With rom competition dont really see it tbh... i just think stealing some1 elses work is a piss take.
looks like an iphone but powered by android baby!!!!
androidkid311 said:
I disagree. Donations are fine in my opinion. I mean its hours spent trying to create something that everyone and yourself will like and share it for free. So a lil donation never hurts . With rom competition dont really see it tbh... i just think stealing some1 elses work is a piss take.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i do agree with what you are saying with the donations.. in an ideal world.
xda can always do this as an experiment.
see who remains when no donations are allowed.
pretty sure the kangs will stop rather quickly
as for the rule of 100 posts, its pretty easy to rack up, especially if they treat xda like twitter.
a combination of both number of years and post rule, with years taking precedence.
for ppl to post in dev threads anyway.
Sorry but I'm starting to get mixed feelings here. I've always been on their side and understand that they can get fed up. But it's as if being a noob is not permitted in their thread. No disrespect but they are coming across as elitist.
As for the devs that use their work without all due credit they are destroying xda spirit.
As far as I remember, from the WinMo days, it was the same old BS, just on a smaller scale, less devices, less forums, less posters, so it was all a more manageable talk for the mods/admind/etc to keep on top of.
I will be really sad if hyperdroid doesnt come back, I only really finished moving there from VR (Base got a bit old) and I dont want to have to find another rom, there all seem to be to themed rather than stable bases with the useful mods built in.
being a newbie is fine. We all start there.
bear in mind, n00b has a different meaning to what you are referring to here.
What differentiates newbies that are humble and n00bs are as below:
being a trolling n00b calling devs idiots, or demanding devs to give them exactly what they want, a n00b that can't read/search, a n00b that somehow thinks he knows best, a n00b that advices others to do weird/ridculous things to their phones, it can be pretty tiring.
veyka said:
As far as I remember, from the WinMo days, it was the same old BS, just on a smaller scale, less devices, less forums, less posters, so it was all a more manageable talk for the mods/admind/etc to keep on top of.
I will be really sad if hyperdroid doesnt come back, I only really finished moving there from VR (Base got a bit old) and I dont want to have to find another rom, there all seem to be to themed rather than stable bases with the useful mods built in.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Same thing that happened with designgears what a quality dev. His cognition had it all! Fell in love with that rom lol. He left rom got old and now im on wanam, which is really good. With android exploding as someone said....the posts may only get worse .
looks like an iphone but powered by android baby!!!!
mbutandola said:
Sorry but I'm starting to get mixed feelings here. I've always been on their side and understand that they can get fed up. But it's as if being a noob is not permitted in their thread. No disrespect but they are coming across as elitist.
As for the devs that use their work without all due credit they are destroying xda spirit.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
this is also my impression. i liked hyperdroid since HD2. excellent work. top job.
hyperdroid was the main reason to buy an SGS2.
But in a thread beginning with:
"Goals of the ROM: Fast. Functional. Solid.
We want the ROM to be fully customizable by the most important person--- YOU, the user. We believe its your choice how you theme the device and that a ROM shouldn't just be themed creations based off another ROM."
Again: The most important person--- YOU, the user.
I think this should be a thread also for users. not only for devs. Did I get this wrong? ok, there where posts with awful context. but lump all users together?
one example of what i really don't understand: they say, the do their job primary for themselves. ok. but do the dev's need a OTA-Tool for themselves?
Users are the most important persons - and then they kick them out. This is a contradiction in my opinion.
i am very sad about this...
This was pongster's thread, his decision. I wish the guys the best for the future! So bye, bye hyperdroid ...
trahzebuck said:
Users are the most important persons - and then they kick them out. This is a contradiction in my opinion.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
what kind of users are you talking about here?
s2d4 said:
being a newbie is fine. We all start there.
bear in mind, n00b has a different meaning to what you are referring to here.
What differentiates newbies that are humble and n00bs are as below:
being a trolling n00b calling devs idiots, or demanding devs to give them exactly what they want, a n00b that can't read/search, a n00b that somehow thinks he knows best, a n00b that advices others to do weird/ridculous things to their phones, it can be pretty tiring.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
s2d4 said:
being a newbie is fine. We all start there.
bear in mind, n00b has a different meaning to what you are referring to here.
What differentiates newbies that are humble and n00bs are as below:
being a trolling n00b calling devs idiots, or demanding devs to give them exactly what they want, a n00b that can't read/search, a n00b that somehow thinks he knows best, a n00b that advices others to do weird/ridculous things to their phones, it can be pretty tiring.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree. But just read Pongster last post. He's got reasons to be angry but sounds a bit smug to me.
I never demanded anything or complained and moved to hyperdroid because the sounded committed while knowing what they talk about. I mean real development. But reading between the lines if you don't know how to use adb then you don't have the requested level. And you shouldn't report bugs.
So basically because of that + some disrespectful comments + stolen work they might stop sharing all along.
Well, it's their work, they don't owe us anything and it's only fair enough.
Life goes on and I won't beg them. If they come back then fine and I'd be pleased. However, even if I end up using their rom again, I won't post anything or ask help from them at all.
Edit: one more thing. Posting on their thread doesn't necessarily mean that you are requesting help from them. You ask help from those who use the same rom and may have encountered the same issue. Most of the time users help each other and that's the best way of learning.
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S II using Tapatalk.
Guys, recent developments in the Dev forums are driving away young developers. Sure, currently, they might not be able to do much more than cook a rom, but I've used a few of those roms and for months they were a good alternative to miui. Everyone needs to start somewhere.
Sure, mistakes were made in giving props, and maybe they don't quite understand what xda fundamentally is just yet, but to start bashing them once we realized that some other developer on a different forum was able to deliver a solid cm12.1 build was rather distasteful. I would have liked for us to nurture this guy who has clearly spent a lot of time on rom development already, and could have potentially make great contributions in the future.
My 2c.
Sent from my Redmi Note 2 using Tapatalk
+1, I agree... I understand the perspective of both sides, but too bad it could not have been worked out privately instead of publicly bashing each other.
I agree it is best to build not destroy
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I also found it very childish the sort of tactics you would expect from big companies like Apple.
If it was a cooked rom with some tweaks for whatever then what is the problem just get the person to state this and people can choose if they want to use it or not.
Just noticed the guy we are talking about has had to make his own board private now with people going over there and moaning.
I don't want to just be a "me too" on this topic, so I will add another point. I do cook ROMs myself occasionally, to make them what I would prefer them to be from the start. I have often wondered whether I should share my "work". Yes, it is work, and it takes a lot of time that one could spend doing gainfully something else, and it is risky, because I have bricked my devices many times in the process of cooking ROMs. I have shared some of my "work" in the past, but, given what has just transpired here, I think I will keep my work to myself in future. Even though some may benefit from it, life is too short to be taking online abuse.
Lesson learned. You can bashing whoever you want if you 'smart enough' or 'serious dev fanboy'.
Keep Bashinnggg... Yeaaay..
I agree. Now we have no dev / cooker / what the f$&% you want anymore on xda. That's only because some users think always bad instead of motivate young 'ROM workers'.
So now this very stupid people are invited to open a new thread to index original developers works, as we don't know Chinese in order to get a fuc++ng ROM from chinese web sites.
And, please, stop to be so strong with other people... Life won't be always easy as it is behind of a screen.
I'm not up to speed about what's happening around here, but looking at the dev section, I understand who the "dev" in question is. But what exactly happened?
Edit: never mind, found it.
Sent from my Redmi Note 2