I was looking for a couple of threads that I had recently bookmarked to go back to later on only to find that they weren't bookmarked anymore. I spent almost an hour searching for them only to find the one specific thread in the trash. No warning or reason was given. Why was this done? I can understand if it's a thread with only a single post or perhaps even one that has become outdated (like a Cupcake release date thread) but why a thread that has 4 pages of information for a topic that doesn't have any reference for it already? Isn't this going to just create more new threads? More e-mails? More questions? Isn't this defeating the purpose of posting a new thread about a topic that hasn't been posted or stickied, if it is just going to be deleted?
If you look in the trash you will find SEVERAL Dream threads. In fact... just on the first page HALF (TEN out of TWENTY) are from the Dream thread! So just to clearify... of the dozens of different threads for different phones half of all trash is for the G1??? Isn't the trash supposed to be for SPAM?
How are these spam (just from the first page)???
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=525564
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=524956
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=519591
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=525034
There are a few more of course but I can understand because most of the questions have been answerered and it would be faster and easier if these people used the search feature. But some haven't been. (example)
Instead of deleting the threads... merge them. But of course you get stuck with a 500+ page thread that MOST people will not read all the way through to see if the question they are about to ask has been asked/answered already. Which is of course why they post a new thread but guess what? It gets deleted and so another thread gets posted. It's never ending and I realize that this must be hard work for the mods.
So what to do?
I propose that instead of deleting these threads without reason or warning, to PM the original poster of the thread to ask of the significance of it and to provide a legitimate reason and purpose for it. Otherwise give warning or notice of the possible deletion. Of course this does not exempt the threads that are posting warez, copyright infringements and other obvious violations of memberships.
This is only my opinion and I hope that I have made an interesting point or two about this matter.
Look at the Sticky "Tough Love Moderation Alert". Basically the admins will lock/delete threads they think duplicate or off topic. I can't say as I agree with their method (no explanation) but there is a need to keep the threads under control. The development forum is the worst of the problem area but all the Dream forums have some abusers.
On the other hand it is leading to silly thread titles "[ONLY] something [ONLY]" (which is silly since people who would have posted off topic before still will) and confusion as well as "What happened to my last post" threads. Time will tell if their methods achieve their goal.
JanetPanic said:
Look at the Sticky "Tough Love Moderation Alert". Basically the admins will lock/delete threads they think duplicate or off topic. I can't say as I agree with their method (no explanation) but there is a need to keep the threads under control. The development forum is the worst of the problem area but all the Dream forums have some abusers.
On the other hand it is leading to silly thread titles "[ONLY] something [ONLY]" (which is silly since people who would have posted off topic before still will) and confusion as well as "What happened to my last post" threads. Time will tell if their methods achieve their goal.
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Yeah... okay. I agree that some of the most annoying problems with the dream thread is that people do post in the ROM Development thread. But is deleting so much easier then moving to the "Dream" thread? If so, does it out weight the inconvenience of the possiblity of the same question being reposted because it was unable to be found by the search feature?
Say this post gets deleted... and it likely will be... and someone else notices the same issue... and they search to see if this has been posted. Will they find it? No. Because hardly anyone looks in the trash. So what do they do? They post it as a new thread. So what happens? A mod goes in and deletes that post. And it repeats over and over again until the mods stop deleting the posts. Then what? Nothing. The post stays and maybe even grows. Is it really a bother that a thread is over a month old and hasn't had any recent posts? Does it really bother anyone? Of course not! They just ignore it, right? So why go through all the trouble to delete it? Some of the threads in the trash are still useful and there is absolutely no harm in keeping it in the proper catagories (ie Dream, Applications, Themes, etc).
Any mod that simply deletes a useful and recently commented thread because it was mistakenly posted under the wrong catgory instead of simply moving it, is just lazy in my own personal opinion and is doing more harm then good. Again... just my opinion.
Binary100100 said:
Say this post gets deleted... and it likely will be... and someone else notices the same issue... and they search to see if this has been posted. Will they find it? No. Because hardly anyone looks in the trash. So what do they do? They post it as a new thread. So what happens? A mod goes in and deletes that post. And it repeats over and over again until the mods stop deleting the posts. Then what? Nothing. The post stays and maybe even grows.
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That doesn't indicate that what the mods are doing is necessarily wrong, it means that new members continue to disregard the rules (posting already answered questions, posting in wrong forum, etc).
That said, I think the mods need to reevaluate how and when they do thread merges. The form of discussion in forums like these tend to be "conversation" centric. However, the threads are presented in a flat format (by default). That means that merging two threads of identical or similar topics will cause their conversations to intermix, with disastrous results. People already have piss-poor reading skills as it is.
What do you expect the moderators to do? We didn't give them a choice. The Dream forums are out of control and it would take the 3 or 4 moderators for these forums 8 hours a day not being paid to police it. You want someone to blame? Blame your fellow XDA members because there are only 2 solutions for this problem:
Get more moderators to baby sit the forums or increase the quality of posting within the Dream forums. The later is what we need here and what the moderators are hoping for.
Edit: And honestly, I think this is the best method. Do we have the potential for losing good information? Yes. This is how you teach the multitudes of Dream posters that there are consequences for being ignorant. Being stupid is not an excuse.
It is pretty annoying how the Dream thread has exploded and that the same questions just keep on cropping up. When I reply I do try to either re-direct them to my signature (which has the basic links to Dude's ROM, SPL, Apps2SD, Radio etc), teach them how to search with the actual result or just point them to the right direction.
However with 500+ pages or whatever, it can become a chore for newbies to read though, even if 70% of the info is in the first page.
I did recommend to the mods that the Dream section needs cleaning up, with a dedicated sub forum purely for the established (or popular) cooked ROMs. So underneath the Dream Dev sub-forum is another just for JF, Dude, Cyanogen, Haykuro etc. That should remove quite a lot of traffic and usual questions then from what is supposed to be a general development thread for other matters.
Then I would suggest a much more organised and up to date FAQ in such a sub-forum which covers all of the same questions that get asked daily. Any such questions that get asked in any of the ROM forums would then be re-directed to the FAQ.
Most of us I'm sure have come from large forums (lik-sang, avsfoums, etc) and know how to search, read etc but many newer members don't, be it due to lack of effort etc. However I'm sure there are many genuine new members who are willing to learn that only need a nudge in the right direction. Simply blocking them off by trashing, linking them only to the search page etc isn't helpful and won't generate a positive community.
I would put myself forward to help moderate the Dream section but I know that zero mod positions are available at the moment, but I do agree with the OP that trashing isn't always the solution.
NeoBlade said:
linking them only to the search page etc isn't helpful and won't generate a positive community.
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The main problem is that for the veterans who have been here since Sept/Oct 2008, everything more or less makes sense because they have seen it evolve to its current state. It's a lot like a guy who lives in a very very messy room who can still find the book buried under a pile of empty ramen cups and dirty laundry. Thus its easy to say "use the search!" in response to any newbie query. That said, from the first-timer newbie perspective, there are a few problems: 1) A lot of information crammed into two poorly organized subforums. 2) A lot of information is outdated and is superseded or contradicts newer information. 3) Some of the sticky threads have very poorly written or maintained first posts.
Sticky threads are not a very good way to store information for general consumption, unless the original poster is a very good communicator and also vigilantly updates the first post with concise information from the entire thread, no matter how long it is. Of the former sticky posts, few actually meet that standard. The ideal format for information conveyance is wiki, but then there is the disconnection between the wiki and active development. In other words, people don't like to move back and forth between the wiki and the forum.
I know what you mean jashu, I love my "organised mess" at home ^_^
It does take effort alright in keeping threads on topic and up to date, I remember when administrating the TokyoToys forum (I since had to close it, joint decision by myself and the owner) and also organising events for fans and people alike to meet up and have fun, took effort and more often enough without any recognition as well which can get discouraging.
Certainly if the OP kept his or her first post updated often enough with information it will keep questions down to a minimum however I still approve of a well made FAQ which is stickied. It then becomes a focal point as any FAQ should. I'm actually in the middle of writing one myself and once its done and the people concerned are happy with it, I would be happy to post it here too.
Ideally a wiki would be best because its user editable however I had a look at the XDA wiki and it does need a bit of TLC.
I will qualify my statement in that I come from the standpoint as an administrator in a prominent Linux forum that gets more posts in an hour in than the Dream forums get in a day. I firmly believe that draconian administration is not the answer and makes the forum far less pleasant to use. I think of administration as keeping things civil and posts in the right forum more than controlling creation of threads. Forcing the organization into a few mammoth threads is not any better than letting users create new threads without rules.
The developers forum is a bit of a mess and completely left to its own it would be worse than it is. The Development forum is not really about development anymore though. It more of a "custom ROM" forum. It is rare that I see an actual post on development on the android platform. Since the primary topic on the forum is custom ROMs the support questions for said ROMs get put in the development forum and generates a mess. Creating a ROM forum would just shift the mess, so I am not sure that would be better.
I think eventually the newbies who are flooding the forum with threads that could be answered by searching will either go away or learn to search. The current choice of administration is not educating the newbies though, it is just forcing them to learn. Regardless of how any of us users feel about the subject though the administrators have made their choice on how to deal with the Dream sub-forums. We are just along for the ride.
The thought that scares me more than any other is that the flood of newbies up to this stage could be just the tip of the iceburg. XDA-Dev before the last year or so was a forum for a fairly small group of people who generally know how to deal with their own problems. Lately the number of users with limited technical ability and desire have been increasing. This is partly due to the ease of having the Android platform, partly due to the fact that smart phones in general (including iPhone) are becoming much more mainstream. If android truly takes off on HTC phones then either the users will have to be forceful to new users to get them into line fast or the philosophy of the XDA-dev forums itself will need to change. Linux forums have a reputation for rude users, this is largely due to the veterans being unforgiving to repeated questions. Harsh but it does work over time.
JanetPanic said:
The thought that scares me more than any other is that the flood of newbies up to this stage could be just the tip of the iceburg. XDA-Dev before the last year or so was a forum for a fairly small group of people who generally know how to deal with their own problems. Lately the number of users with limited technical ability and desire have been increasing. This is partly due to the ease of having the Android platform, partly due to the fact that smart phones in general (including iPhone) are becoming much more mainstream. If android truly takes off on HTC phones then either the users will have to be forceful to new users to get them into line fast or the philosophy of the XDA-dev forums itself will need to change.
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This and the fact that it's brand spanking new. Give it time and the kids will find something new to play with and move on while the people that give a rats arse (us) will be left behind. I've seen it time and time again on car forums. This isn't any different. The first 6 months is bliss. The following 1-2 years is absolute hell. Then comes the volume drop off and the true development. I've all for tough love but it's not like the tide is ever going to stop. We are just going to have to wait it out.
There's always methods in dealing with issues and I do agree that its more of a ROM section than Development thesedays... Hence in my opinion it would be better off having a ROM section for such people to post on, which will clear up for people actually developling or helping to improve the android platform - Most notibly the Bluetooth OBEX support.
This isn't the fastest forum I've seen or been involved in in terms of volumes of posts, however it is getting to the point where re-structuring and possibly more moderators are needed to help ease the burden. When a large number of people register and start being active, it is often the best time to set an example and indeed set and establish a community where people help people - Be it to simple things as pointing them to the right direction to much more techinical issues.
Without the ethos to help each other, where would open source be?
Granted I know nothing about Linux myself and couldn't code to save my life but I do enjoy the technical discussions that take place. A lot of this is lost with the usual questions that get asked, hence the need for a more up to date FAQ. Tough love is needed but I believe with the right organisation, it shouldn't have to be the only answer.
uberingram said:
This and the fact that it's brand spanking new. Give it time and the kids will find something new to play with and move on while the people that give a rats arse (us) will be left behind. I've seen it time and time again on car forums. This isn't any different. The first 6 months is bliss. The following 1-2 years is absolute hell. Then comes the volume drop off and the true development. I've all for tough love but it's not like the tide is ever going to stop. We are just going to have to wait it out.
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the G1 is the new sidekick. and the sidekick was such a fad and trend for kids to use as a phone. the hip hop and celebrity community did well in terms of marketing the sidekick to the mainstream public as being a "your not cool if you don't have one of these" items. also the emo/scene kids are all about what the "in" things and fads are, so that highly popularized the sidekick as well.
and now since the G1 came out, most of the people that got a sidekick for those particular reasons mentioned above, are now "upgrading" to the next newer cooler big thing.... the G1.
young people love to follow trends, fads, and what's cool at the moment.
right now, the G1 is just that.
it's a double edge for Android and the G1. the popularity is one of the key things needed to make Android and the G1 a success. but with popularity comes a lot riff raff and criticism that is not welcomed so well. but i digress lol
i just hope the sidekick comes out with a touchscreen version or something, so the kids have something new shiny to play with haha
Not owned a sidekick before but then I presume its more popular in the USA than it is in the UK? I moved to the G1 after my Nokia N95. Got impatient waiting for the N97 so made the jump and thanks to the incomplete stock OS, I was tempted to move back to my N95 until JF released his research, Haykuro and Dude. Now it feels more complete with only a few things missing.
Back on topic though, the place isn't as bad as it could be but since this is more a development forum to begin with and not a social based one, just a few tweaks here and there would help newbies a little.
NeoBlade said:
Not owned a sidekick before but then I presume its more popular in the USA than it is in the UK? I moved to the G1 after my Nokia N95. Got impatient waiting for the N97 so made the jump and thanks to the incomplete stock OS, I was tempted to move back to my N95 until JF released his research, Haykuro and Dude. Now it feels more complete with only a few things missing.
Back on topic though, the place isn't as bad as it could be but since this is more a development forum to begin with and not a social based one, just a few tweaks here and there would help newbies a little.
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ohhh i have an idea...
like when you sign up you pick the phone and platform you use then instantly redirects the new member to a FAQ or pertinent threads associated to their liking of phone and platform and at the same time directly email them a link to those FAQ and whatnot.
NeoBlade said:
Not owned a sidekick before but then I presume its more popular in the USA than it is in the UK?.
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Yeah, it's just how mrcrs described it. The Sidekick became quite the fashion accessory model when celebrities started picking them up. They are pictured all over the tabloids and mentioned a lot of times in up-start musician's songs. I doubt very much that it would have panned out this way if T-Mobile released the SideKick 3G before the G1 but then again, T-Mobile needed a victory and a halo phone really fast.
That would take a fair amount of modification to the forum files to do (I've done my fair share of phpBB, phpBB Plus, IPB etc) and also is on the pretence that every single mobile has a suitable FAQ to begin with.
And easier way and modification to the forum could be to send a general stock welcoming PM along with a reminder to search and any additional helpful links within. That is, if XDA wants to go down that route.
NeoBlade said:
That would take a fair amount of modification to the forum files to do (I've done my fair share of phpBB, phpBB Plus, IPB etc) and also is on the pretence that every single mobile has a suitable FAQ to begin with.
And easier way and modification to the forum could be to send a general stock welcoming PM along with a reminder to search and any additional helpful links within. That is, if XDA wants to go down that route.
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whenever i join forums and in my inbox i get a message automatically, which is usually from the forum itself, i usually disregard it because all it is a "welcome to xyz forums... yada yada yada... enjoy your time here"
i usually don't open and read it, delete it then... go wreck havoc on finding out the information i want to know or read about. but that's just me
JanetPanic said:
This is partly due to the ease of having the Android platform, partly due to the fact that smart phones in general (including iPhone) are becoming much more mainstream. If android truly takes off on HTC phones then either the users will have to be forceful to new users to get them into line fast or the philosophy of the XDA-dev forums itself will need to change.
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To get a glimpse of where Dream/Magic forum is headed, just look at the xda Winmo forums. "Development" in this case basically just means rom customization. It's already pretty much at that state here too. Of course if Android fulfills its promise of being a mainstream smartphone OS, there will be many more newbies here than there ever were on the Winmo forums (you don't see many kids rocking Touch Diamonds).
Linux forums have a reputation for rude users, this is largely due to the veterans being unforgiving to repeated questions. Harsh but it does work over time.
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IMO there's nothing wrong with being a bit curt, especially in the "development" forum. This isn't an interactive tutorial, a hand-holding journey. Too many people seem to get the idea that the unsupported hacks enabled by rooting can be generalized and simplified for mass-market consumption. That kind of thinking is faulty and the resulting bad publicity may jeopardize the Android hacking community on the whole.
The problem is that in most cases, being rude only keeps away users who had initial reservations and cautions to rooting-- precisely the kind of user who actually might take the time to indepedently and/or responsibly learn how to do things properly.
jashsu said:
To get a glimpse of where Dream/Magic forum is headed, just look at the xda Winmo forums. "Development" in this case basically just means rom customization. It's already pretty much at that state here too. Of course if Android fulfills its promise of being a mainstream smartphone OS, there will be many more newbies here than there ever were on the Winmo forums (you don't see many kids rocking Touch Diamonds).
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I have been here since 2005 with the Blue Angel (then the Wizard, Jam, Magician, and the Artemis). Eventually XDA started dedicating a subforum to ROMs with the general development thread up top for WinMo development. The Dream right now just has the one combined forum. Another difference is that the ROM threads in Dream seem to grow faster than I remember on the WinMo threads. I am not sure what the difference is, maybe that usually there are a couple debug threads that die out which in the Dream forum is discouraged. Regardless the rapid posting makes it harder to keep up with more than one ROM.
jashsu said:
IMO there's nothing wrong with being a bit curt, especially in the "development" forum. This isn't an interactive tutorial, a hand-holding journey. Too many people seem to get the idea that the unsupported hacks enabled by rooting can be generalized and simplified for mass-market consumption. That kind of thinking is faulty and the resulting bad publicity may jeopardize the Android hacking community on the whole.
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I agree, well put.
jashsu said:
The problem is that in most cases, being rude only keeps away users who had initial reservations and cautions to rooting-- precisely the kind of user who actually might take the time to indepedently and/or responsibly learn how to do things properly.
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Good point as well.
Related
Okay, before everyone starts flaming...I know that there are probably hundreds of thread in the Dream General section suggesting a support section or a "Support thread" but they have been incredibly unsuccessful and members are constantly reporting and starting new threads on their problems in Dream Android Development and in General. Isn't the whole point of GENERAL suppose to be GENERAL? And not a support area?
This is why I'm proposing that we create an entire new area for people to get help and for people to post their problems and give solutions. If you take a look at the amount of locked threads in development and the amount of threads in Dream General pertaining to the numerous amount of problems that people are having, you will understand. I understand that there is in fact a brick thread inside Dream Development, but people don't care. They just post it in random places and mods have to constantly remind people to post in the right place and to SEARCH! With this proposal, I believe that if a support section is created, people will be more likely to search in THERE because it's a special place set aside for just that, SUPPORT.
Mods please take this into consideration and don't lock this thread. How many of you think that we should have a support section and not clutter Dream General and Dream Development with hundreds of two post threads talking about bricks and eventually them getting locked or moved to the trash within seconds.
Thanks for reading this. Comment in the posts below
Thanks to Milestone for a list of good reasons why we should have a support section! thanks milestone!
milestone.it said:
i feel that a support section would be useful for many simple reasons
1) it would aid in the moderation task - most people can read the word "support" and realize to post in there. if they can't then don't get a g1!
2) it would allow for a few people who are interested in helping out other newbie users to correct their problems without everyone having to read them if they don't want to.
3) there can be a place to move wrongly posted requests to.
4) everyone knows where to post them to in the first place!
that was my £0.02p
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Everyone here with a few exceptions i'm sure are using a rooted phone. If you noticed, each thread that contains a ROM will also provide support for that ROM. Most of the problems are specific to each rom. So there would need to be a support thread for each ROM released in a seperate forum section, which already exists in the developer section. Also, each rom released is pretty much a beta and will always remain a beta because there is no standards to which these roms are created and no "end point" to the development, its always on going. And unique bugs and problems will always occure with each Rom. So it is a continual part of development to post, read about and repair those bugs and problems to make each Rom better. I don't think a support section needs to be created. I just think people need to be less lazy and use the search tools. Even bricked phones are being bricked by a specific rom...or SPL or what have u and again should fall under development since most bricked phones was because of a bad SPL or bug in a ROM . And if it is not specific to anything that has been created or released here...Tmobile DOES have their own support forums =)
Good point, but we're not T-Mobile and T-Mobile doesn't JUST carry the G1 now do they?
alritewhadeva said:
Good point, but we're not T-Mobile and T-Mobile doesn't JUST carry the G1 now do they?
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You've a good point as well =). ...Yah, T-mobile mentioned something about them carrying the ION soon....so I guess "T-Mobile" can be replaced with "Your phone's manufacturer and/or carrier" hehehe
Did XDA not create forums for the Magic and the Ion and the Sapphire? Most of this development is geared towards the G1 for the most part...which pretty much is T-Mobile....Now if they just made a Forum for "ANDROID DEVELOPMENT" that encomposses all the android phones...that may work out better. But the support would still end up in the specific rom forums... I dunno...to many roms and too many phones and too many carriers lol getting had to keep up
alritewhadeva said:
Good point, but we're not T-Mobile and T-Mobile doesn't JUST carry the G1 now do they?
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No, and T-Mobile won't be able to support the myriad of problems that come with rooted phones and custom ROMs anyway.
The sad fact (and why this idea has never really taken off) is that no matter what you do; stickies/wikis/locked threads/temp bans etc... there is always going to be a host of fng's that don't know any better and will continue to post out of context and out of laziness.
Hell, there's a couple people that straight up know better and will still post in the wrong section because "nobody's gonna be able to help me in the Dream forum, so I'm posting here anyway."
It would seem you can't change human nature, so you're forced to moderate. Or so I've decided.
i feel that a support section would be useful for many simple reasons
1) it would aid in the moderation task - most people can read the word "support" and realise to post in there. if they can't then don't get a g1!
2) it would allow for a few people who are interested in helping out other newbie users to correct their problems without everyone having to read them if they don't want to.
3) there can be a place to move wrongly posted requests to.
4) everyone knows where to post them to in the first place!
that was my £0.02p
tep065 said:
You've a good point as well =). ...Yah, T-mobile mentioned something about them carrying the ION soon....so I guess "T-Mobile" can be replaced with "Your phone's manufacturer and/or carrier" hehehe
Did XDA not create forums for the Magic and the Ion and the Sapphire? Most of this development is geared towards the G1 for the most part...which pretty much is T-Mobile....Now if they just made a Forum for "ANDROID DEVELOPMENT" that encomposses all the android phones...that may work out better. But the support would still end up in the specific rom forums... I dunno...to many roms and too many phones and too many carriers lol getting had to keep up
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Yeah there's a forum for the Magic/Sapphire but the ION has not really been officially launched, but when it does I'm sure XDA will create another forum for it. I still think a support section would be a good idea. Most other forums have something like that, however this one does not. Just my opinion
milestone.it said:
i feel that a support section would be useful for many simple reasons
1) it would aid in the moderation task - most people can read the word "support" and realise to post in there. if they can't then don't get a g1!
2) it would allow for a few people who are interested in helping out other newbie users to correct their problems without everyone having to read them if they don't want to.
3) there can be a place to move wrongly posted requests to.
4) everyone knows where to post them to in the first place!
that was my £0.02p
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Click to collapse
Good list. Updated OP
So, I've been thinking about this a bit more... and drinking bombay/tonic and shots of patron, so take it with a grain of salt...hehe
Anyway, I actually think it could be useful at this point. Seeing all the troubleshooting threads in this forum, it could be useful to seperate truly general things with support related things.
The way I see it, at this moment:
Dream (26 Viewing)
Dream android development (237 Viewing)
Dream accessories (2 Viewing)
Dream themes and wallpapers (25 Viewing)
Dream applications and games (23 Viewing)
Obviously, development gets all the attention.
That's the main reason so many people go straight there to get a question answered.
However; a support thread probably wouldn't see any less visitors than the other 4 threads and certainly more than the accessories thread. I dare say, accessories could be merged with general and be replaced with support.
It wouldn't hurt to have a handful of stickies of current support issues and an entire thread dedicated to it. Maybe having a thread that floated to the top in development called support that tried to redirect people to a support forum might work well.
Anyway, just a thought. Back to the tequila...
milestone.it said:
i feel that a support section would be useful for many simple reasons
1) it would aid in the moderation task - most people can read the word "support" and realise to post in there. if they can't then don't get a g1!
2) it would allow for a few people who are interested in helping out other newbie users to correct their problems without everyone having to read them if they don't want to.
3) there can be a place to move wrongly posted requests to.
4) everyone knows where to post them to in the first place!
that was my £0.02p
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Click to collapse
Agreed =] I'm thankful for everyone commenting in this thread and keeping it alive. Come on guys, don't PRETEND you DON'T want a suppport section. Aren't all of you tired of the cluttered threads and the people telling you to sift through 300 page threads for answers? With this support section, finding an answer should be a breeze. I'm proposing we have sepeerate threads in the section for different ROMs and to post known problems and known solutions in the OPs. Let your opinions be heard! Going to go ahead and bump this up there. Come on! Comment! and vote in the poll
First of all...let me first make it clear that I liked Vista. So in case you haven't yet figured it out... I like Nexus one and have no complaints.
But, like Vista, Nexus One is being continuously targeted on internet and therefore even minor issues have been blown out of proportion. XDA is perhaps at the core of it. We have two sub-forums... General and Q&A.. which have turned into whining grounds. Everyone (including me) have been whining about issues and reducing our satisfaction level with our new phone. I certainly regret reading a few threads...I wasn't even aware of these issues..they were not bothering me... but now that i have read them... they haunt me. Are they serious? nope.. just like most of the other issues here. I am sure I am not alone who has this experience.
So...enough of my rant.. what do we do?
1) I would propose that we merge Q&A and General. General is enough. We have similar whining topics in both the forums as people are confused about which question goes where and have started redundant threads.
2) Any useless rant or repeat posts should be locked and deleted ASAP. We perhaps need more moderators here.
3) Action against impolite posters. This forum has got nasty and personal. I have not seen such behavior in other sub-forums
4) This forum will get even busier once sprint, Verizon and European devices come out... We need some stickies to avoid repetition of questions.
If you guys have constructive comments..additions.. please post.
A phone is a phone and none of them are perfect. Most of the Nexus converts are ex iphone fanboys. Lest we forget it took essentially 2 years before the iphone could do what the Nexus can do straight out of the box on day one.
I'm a tried and tested gadget freak, and I've also used pretty much every high end phone in existance (except for Vertu and Porsche branded phones) and to be honest, if I wanted a plain old perfect "phone", I'd buy a Nokia 1600 series handset and be done with it .
It makes calls, it receives calls, it doesnt crash, and it bounces when I drop it, and keeps on ticking after a damn good licking (my 1650 actually went thru a clothes wash, dried it out, and kept on going!).
My advice to you - if you're over the whining, just dont visit the General and Q&A sections...
Honestly, there still needs to be a Q&A section and a general section. The Q&A section (should be) used more for questions about using the phone, or a good place to put how to's, or for questions that could be seem as borderline developmental but development hasn't started, or for general trouble shooting where a post in the ROM thread just doesn't do it, or if it is an issue with all ROMs or most ROMs of the same nature (Vanilla Android/Sense).
I do tremendously agree you though on all the BS threads about the same issue or people whining about issues that they find annoying but aren't major. Yes, there should be threads to alert people to these issues, but there doesn't need to be a new thread every single time a user has that problem and wants to cry about it.
Honestly, the moderators are doing a much better job over here then the g1 area was for a while, pointless threads get locked at a much higher rate in the dev section, people are being reprimanded for breaking the rules numerous times, appropriate threads are being merged, threads are being moved to the correct sub-forum when needed instead of just locked to keep the information in those threads alive.
I entirely agree with you about peoples attitudes, while most people are respectful of others, many aren't, and should be warned at the least. Yeah there are times I wish I could reach through my screen and slap people, but in the end, you're just going to end up arguing with people over the internet which isn't going to get you anywhere, and in general is just going to make other people on here think less of you and be less willing to help you out in the future (or use your work if you feel like contributing, I know there are a few people whose work I refuse to use based on their past actions, or what I think about their character).
Again, I agree with you that this forum will only get busier as the nexus is released on more networks/providers/3g bands/whatever, and as users, we need to try and keep down the pointless threads, and flaming of people that post in the wrong section, so that new people won't feel so inclined to do the same (think about it, you see the guy supposedly "senior" member flaming the "junior" member for posting in the wrong section, is that any different than the junior member posting in the wrong section. It's not going to "teach" the member to post in the correct section).
Oh well, there is my pseudo-rant for the night. On most of your points, I do agree with you, so take my post how you want.
Just had to..... Win7 > Vista
I find it offensive that you compare android 2.1 to vista.
yes this forum needs stickies.
I vote no to merging the two forums. Maybe a description saying: "post in this q&a forum if you have a question you think this community can answer"
I've not had no issues with my Nexus One. No dust under the screen, no lag, no touch-screen anomalies.......nothing. I think that a lot of the whining is due to the fact that people expect much more from a phone these days. When the iPhone was first introduced there were lots of things it couldn't do, and had many flaws. But, it did things other phones didn't and it revolutionised the market. It was so unlike every other phone that people didn't concentrate on the bad things.
With the Nexus it has many competitors to compare it to. With that comes more differences and reasons to complain.
I'm with you, though, in that the whining posts need to be filtered out somehow. Maybe a 'complaints/problems forum' would be more useful?
Hi!
I was just wondering if anyone would like to point me and others in the direction of some other useful threads to check out that relate to our Hero. (Not Superman, he's still GSM only)
For example, I've wondered if any subforums other than Hero CDMA in the HTC Hero Forums here on XDA have any useful info or downloads that are relevant. Also, I've been wondering the same thing about the general Android forums here on XDA.
I keep a CDMA Hero bookmark button on top of Firefox, but does anyone have any good suggestions of other sites or subforums/threads that I can add along with it and check about as much as I check Facebook, Gmail and Plentyoffish? Hahaha
The thread list is up at the top.. Under search..
Have fun with it..
http://geekfor.me/
http://forum.androidcentral.com/htc-hero/
http://forum.xda-developers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=519
these are my bookmarks on this install, i have a ton more on my other computer but can't remember them now, these are the ones i've used this week
There is plenty to read and learn both in the G2 section, and in the wider general Android forum. I highly recommend checking it out.
Haha, yeah, thanks. I was about to say thanks, ****, but I saw you're joking so it's cool.
Before anyone tries to use the old "google it" line on me, let me say, yeah - I've googled it before. I know several good sites to check out other than XDA, like android central and so on.
I'm just wondering what other people check religiously like I check this subforum.
I'm also mainly curious to know if there's even any point reading through stuff on in the GSM Hero subforums. It's so lame that we only get one lousy little subforum! There's bound to be a wealth of knowledge, downloads, etc. in the GSM subforums, but I just don't want to waste my time or learn harmful/useless things.
By the way, if I could soapbox for a minute (and this has nothing to do with the post above this one, lol), I've noticed a lot of rudeness in the CDMA Hero posts, and it's a shame.
Of course it gets annoying to see people begging for help with common issues that have been addressed a hundred times. No one denies that, but it's just something that will always be there. Unless there is a quiz on the basics of flashing ROMs and using a device before one can make posts on here, it's always going to happen. Getting annoyed with this is understandable.
However, I've noticed other types of threads posted, which while a bit annoying because we've seen the same thing over and over, really don't deserve the rudeness that they get. Who cares if there are 50 threads on here where people ask what other people prefer to use as a daily ROM, or what their home screen looks like? Does anyone lose any money or time over this? Is there a thread limit here? No. This is a community of people who have the same device and who all want to get the best out of their devices. If a thread is pointless, it will be buried quickly when no one posts in it, and the more popular threads will remain on the first page. A pointless thread will continue to stay on the first page though, when someone takes the time to make a rude post!
Anyway, sorry to rant on and on about it, but it would really be great to see the CDMA Hero community work together a little better and be a little less anal. This is probably the number one site that people with our phone check to learn more and update and generally get more out of the Hero experience. Instead of scaring people away from making new threads and posts to ask people what they like and why they like it, we should really try to encourage this. The more we all come together and explore things together (regardless of how repetitive and in some opinions possibly even trivial some of these things may be), the more we grow as a whole, and I am sure that this kind of atmosphere will encourage more people to make more and more interesting contributions.
The beauty of Android and of XDA Developers Forums is that they were both created with the goal of people coming together and developing, creating, tweaking, designing, and discussing. Before the Hero, I was permanently glued to a Dell Axim x51v, and between these forums and HTCGeeks, and a friendly and open community of users and developers, we've taken the device FAR beyond anything that anyone could have dreamed it could get to when it was made, what, 5 years ago?
thedudejdog said:
http://geekfor.me/
http://forum.androidcentral.com/htc-hero/
http://forum.xda-developers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=519
these are my bookmarks on this install, i have a ton more on my other computer but can't remember them now, these are the ones i've used this week
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks a lot, I'm going to add these into a "Hero" bookmarks folder!
tejasrichard said:
There is plenty to read and learn both in the G2 section, and in the wider general Android forum. I highly recommend checking it out.
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Click to collapse
Thanks for the info!
GSM Hero Themes/Apps Thread
Curious - is this thread useful at all to us, or will any themes and apps be useless since we're CDMA?
I already know (I think) that GSM themes won't work because they're probably designed for GSM ROMs, so all kinds of things won't be compatible. (Like trying to use a 1.5 theme on a 2.1 ROM)
Are things like widgets and clocks ROM and/or device specific? I'm on a widget hunt.
I'm new to using Helix and I'd love to find some widgets that compare to the awesome Sense widgets, particularly Sense's beautiful Messaging, Mail, Music, and Friendstream widgets.
raynda said:
However, I've noticed other types of threads posted, which while a bit annoying because we've seen the same thing over and over, really don't deserve the rudeness that they get. Who cares if there are 50 threads on here where people ask what other people prefer to use as a daily ROM, or what their home screen looks like? Does anyone lose any money or time over this? Is there a thread limit here? No. This is a community of people who have the same device and who all want to get the best out of their devices. If a thread is pointless, it will be buried quickly when no one posts in it, and the more popular threads will remain on the first page. A pointless thread will continue to stay on the first page though, when someone takes the time to make a rude post!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's not that we care that there is a hundred threads that say the same thing, its that if there are 100 threads of the same topic, it in effect, makes our forum usage a terror, because navigation is almost doomed from the beginning in that situation..
And it is not going to be something that is always there, because with mods actually modding these threads on other forums that I frequent daily, *they are virtually non-existant...
For the "noob" users, they cannot find these answers efficiently because the forum is blasted with the same thing over and over... With different answers in each thread..
The only way to make the "noob's" life easier, is to format the forum in a efficient and knowledge ready way...
Which by letting noob's overrun your forum, is not possible... We are hateful because you are feeding an endless chain of questions, when it could be handled in a much more effective way, if it wasn't for people flaming people who are actually looking out for the forum....
raynda said:
By the way, if I could soapbox for a minute (and this has nothing to do with the post above this one, lol), I've noticed a lot of rudeness in the CDMA Hero posts, and it's a shame.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, it's kinda bad here... It's like that on pretty much any technical forum, but things are really over the top on this one.
It's to the point now that when I do have a question I feel like I need to devote one short paragraph to asking the question, then tack on 5 more long paragraphs explaining that I already DID search, came up empty handed, searched again, explain which keywords I searched on, etc....
Surely there's a happy medium that can be found...
azyouthinkeyeiz said:
We are hateful because you are feeding an endless chain of questions, when it could be handled in a much more effective way, if it wasn't for people flaming people who are actually looking out for the forum....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey, I'm not trying to come off defensive to you in this reply because I appreciate your posts on here, but are you saying that I personally am feeding an endless chain of questions?
Also, maybe I'm wrong, but I think that the problem may be in people looking out for the forum too much, when the point of this whole XDA Developers Forum thing should be to look out for the fellow user. Like I said though, I may be wrong.
And I don't mean that it's perfectly cool to have hundreds of the same thread in here, I agree that is useless clutter. I just think that some threads that get posted do have potential for the good of the community, but they get squashed quickly by posters with bad attitudes, and then the OP in that thread and others who have the same thoughts and questions become too embarrassed or insulted/offended to post again. When that happens, someone who may have eventually provided something amazing to the community will either never get to that point, or will get there and just won't post it here because of the bad experience.
I'm sure that there are all kinds of amazing things that people have tweaked, developed, designed, and created, but they're never going to be publicly released for one reason or another. Let's not let the reason be that they were treated like they were stupid when they were finding their way on these forums.
subliminalurge said:
Yeah, it's kinda bad here... It's like that on pretty much any technical forum, but things are really over the top on this one.
It's to the point now that when I do have a question I feel like I need to devote one short paragraph to asking the question, then tack on 5 more long paragraphs explaining that I already DID search, came up empty handed, searched again, explain which keywords I searched on, etc....
Surely there's a happy medium that can be found...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's exactly what I'm talking about. People will get to the point that they just won't post anything when they have an idea or a question because there's no happy medium. And the worse it gets, the less progress we make as a whole.
raynda said:
Hey, I'm not trying to come off defensive to you in this reply because I appreciate your posts on here, but are you saying that I personally am feeding an endless chain of questions?
Also, maybe I'm wrong, but I think that the problem may be in people looking out for the forum too much, when the point of this whole XDA Developers Forum thing should be to look out for the fellow user. Like I said though, I may be wrong.
And I don't mean that it's perfectly cool to have hundreds of the same thread in here, I agree that is useless clutter. I just think that some threads that get posted do have potential for the good of the community, but they get squashed quickly by posters with bad attitudes, and then the OP in that thread and others who have the same thoughts and questions become too embarrassed or insulted/offended to post again. When that happens, someone who may have eventually provided something amazing to the community will either never get to that point, or will get there and just won't post it here because of the bad experience.
I'm sure that there are all kinds of amazing things that people have tweaked, developed, designed, and created, but they're never going to be publicly released for one reason or another. Let's not let the reason be that they were treated like they were stupid when they were finding their way on these forums.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No not you specifically. Sorry that was an analogous "you".. And I totally agree.. But 95% of the ones get shot down immediately, deserve it, even though you might not think so, from the people with answers, you will know almost immediately if it merits further investigation. Wishful-thinking and impossible sometimes walk a very narrow line. Developers and end-users have entirely different mindsets.. That's never going to change.. But the end-users should have a more thorough understanding of what it is we do for you and *developers should be more compassionate "for the most part (there are alot of caring devs)..
Where this sub-forum was destroyed, was giving it sub-forum status and not its own separate forum, like every other HTC device.. Then, we would get a development sub-forum, themes forum, etc. The development is different than the GSM Hero, so why doesn't it deserve its own?
You will see, that with honest concerns and problems, I will go to the end of the world for you...
But, if you want something from me, (effort to help you) you must at least show some sort of effort to solve the issue, besides "NEW TOPIC< IS MY PHONE BRICKED?"
azyouthinkeyeiz said:
You will see, that with honest concerns and problems, I will go to the end of the world for you...
But, if you want something from me, (effort to help you) you must at least show some sort of effort to solve the issue, besides "NEW TOPIC< IS MY PHONE BRICKED?"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can definitely see your point.
But this is where the happy medium needs to be found. I know I'm the exception rather than the rule on this point, but by the time I post asking for help, it's safe to say I've spent at least one day each both trying to figure out an answer on my own (and I'm fairly capable), and searching this forum, other forums, and google to see if anyone else has had and solved the same problem.
That's effort that isn't seen, but it's extremely frustrating to feel obligated to explain it all in detail in exchange for the privilege of asking a question.
Now, don't take this post the wrong way. There's absolutely nothing wrong with expecting people to do a little digging on their own before they come crying for help.
I just think this forum (as a whole, not you specifically) has gone a bit over the top with how much "proof" of that digging is required before someone can feel comfortable asking their question.
(And I'm not really even complaining, just offering my observations on a topic that was already brought up for discussion....)
I get very sarcastic... But only because I think sarcasm is funny...
And you really don't have to explain it yourself *in every post.. Because most of us with a thorough background, can tell how much effort you put in, just by your question... (edit* Yourself is again analogous, not you)
For Example, the 2.1 thread this morning...
I opened it up, thinking to myself "Not again"...
But when I read and see that it was actually about A2DP, mindset about the thread changes, and I go into help mode... That invoked thought and development just from that post..
Now if I had opened it up, and it was a brand new "Can I change back to a rooted rom after the OTA update" question... I would have went into sarcasm mode... And I don't want to help that guy be lazy.. Why should we give him the benefit of spouting off verbatim what has been answered 1000 times before, just because he can't take the 20 mins to peruse over a couple threads??
I am all about the education of every single member of this forum, into all of the ways of Android... But its like what my papaw used to tell me, "You get what you put in."
And to ray...
Download GMOB chat, from the market...
Go to the rooted users chat, and there is usually alot of good info there, you just have to sort of wade through some of it, since you only get to see like the 50 most recent posts.. So it takes a little more effort to find anything... Also the apps room is pretty cool...
I have found technorati.com is getting alot better...
androidfreeware.com is good for apps.
OK, now to take the completely opposite side....
I was just reading another topic and in 5 minutes I saw 3 different questions posted that had been answered ON THAT SAME PAGE!!!
The proper profanity has not yet been invented to describe people like that.
See subliminal...
It's not that I don't wanna see those questions asked, I just want people to understand the nature of a forum, and alot* here do not...
If people read, before they start looking for answers, we would be alot better..
The issue is, that all of these people look to have a very limited understanding of Android, and just want a phone to use.. And this is not the forum for those.. Android-central, sprintusers.com, etc are more appropriate..
This forum is for development, not for chatting about the evo, or why your 1.5 is better than 2.1.. or how android is the iphone killer..
This forum is to bring ideas to our platform, and to build upon them... And to release mods and hacks..
Not for people to rant about how sprint sucks, and I want a nexus one..
Or to rant about how developers are stealing our donations....
It is to make our phone better, and with people feeding this nonsense, we are hindering the forum from where it should be...
azyouthinkeyeiz said:
Not for people to rant about how sprint sucks, and I want a nexus one..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But what if Sprint sucks, the Nexus One is a POS...
AND....
Why can't I get a Nexus One on Sprint?
(I really do understand both sides of the issue. I just kinda agree that some on this forum are a bit quick on the draw with the "Use the search you ****in' noob!" gun....)
azyouthinkeyeiz said:
And to ray...
Download GMOB chat, from the market...
Go to the rooted users chat, and there is usually alot of good info there, you just have to sort of wade through some of it, since you only get to see like the 50 most recent posts.. So it takes a little more effort to find anything... Also the apps room is pretty cool...
I have found technorati.com is getting alot better...
androidfreeware.com is good for apps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey thanks, I'll check that out! By the way, after thinking about it today and catching up on this thread's replies, I think we're thinking on the same page.
It would be handy, I think, if we could get some extremely well written and dummy-proof How-To's stickied for the main page. I know there is already a sticky wicky for guides, but I remember still being a bit lost even having read them when I was new to the Hero. I wrote some extremely detailed step by step how-to's for the x51v over at htcgeeks, and though it might be my own vanity speaking, I think that it slowed down the constant repetitive questions. I'd volunteer to help out with this if we could get some Mod help to reorganize the stickies. I think we should have individual ones for...
- How To Setup an SD Card for A2SD
- How To Install Recovery and How To Use It (Nandroids, what they are, wipes, which ones to use for what, Fix UID's explanation, etc.)
- How To Flash a Custom ROM
- How To Flash a Custom Theme
- Troubleshooting PC Sync Issues
- How To Setup and Use ADB Shell with a list of ADB functions
I know we have this stuff now, but I remember it took a while to find all the info I needed to learn all these things when I was new to the Hero, and the current Guides sticky wasn't as helpful as it could have been. And I'm a pretty resourceful and intelligent guy who can search, read, and follow instructions! (Or at least I like to think so, lol)
Oh, and to make a preventative strike against hundreds of future bug reports on new ROMs, giant bold text on every page of every thread that says "WIPE DATA, DALVIK CACHE, AND SD EXT BEFORE FLASHING A DIFFERENT ROM!!!
I just noticed this thread:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=638133
May I ask why there is a ban on discussions of which ROMs are best?
Isn't that the whole point of a forum?
Is there anything else we should be aware of? banned words, certain sentences, are there any particular phrases that we can get into trouble for?
Ever heard of freedom of speech?
Am I going to get into trouble for this message because you don't like it?
Well i think it has nothing to do with ''censure''. Just some of us think that there is no BEST ROM and one should find out the BEST ROM for himself by himself.
But i may be wrong.
There is actualy no best rom!
For every user there is a best experience/stability/usefullness
How can you say its the best rom for me if it doesnt suit my taste?
Every HD2 behaves diferently from batch to batch, so another issue, for your hd2 one build may work perfect and for me - not at all...
No point in these threads.
Go in the apropreate build thread and post there, say whatever you like - it's the best, it's the worse...
I can't see any censureship here.
There is actualy no best rom!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This may be a valid point but how would we know if we are not permitted to talk about it ?
BTW. when I titled this thread 'XDA Censured?' it was a Freudian slip of the computer keyboard I should have typed 'Censored' however 'Censure' means to formally rebuke
I happen to strongly believe in freedom of speech and if people wish to talk about what they think is the best ROM for them and why etc. then if this is indeed a forum for the perpetuation of freedom of speech I think it is very wrong that some individuals should take it upon themselves to decide that this is not a fit topic for discussion and to close threads based on there own personal and dare one say dictatorial opinions.
That is the beginning of a slippery slide down into a cesspit of censorship and we don't want a smelly forum now do we!
IanMc said:
This may be a valid point but how would we know if we are not permitted to talk about it ?
BTW. when I titled this thread 'XDA Censured?' it was a Freudian slip of the computer keyboard I should have typed 'Censored' however 'Censure' means to formally rebuke
I happen to strongly believe in freedom of speech and if people wish to talk about what they think is the best ROM for them and why etc. then if this is indeed a forum for the perpetuation of freedom of speech I think it is very wrong that some individuals should take it upon themselves to decide that this is not a fit topic for discussion and to close threads based on there own personal and dare one say dictatorial opinions.
That is the beginning of a slippery slide down into a cesspit of censorship and we don't want a smelly forum now do we!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
if all the mor... eh users where able to make just whatever post on the boards they liked everything would be a insane mess. topics that come along every week or so are usles they always have the same result. one user says THIS IS THE BEST !!!!!!!11111oneoneone the other says NO YOU SUCK THIS IS THE BEST !!!!!!!1111oneone and this wil go on for about 40 pages and still no one is any wiser.
In the meanwhile a good user just went along and found a rom he liked visually and with a nice amount of aps he likes. He found it was not his rom and try's another one and keeps trying until he finds his best rom.
The problem here is that alot of users have their opinions and they think their opinions are the only possible correct answer. And guess what oppinions can't be wrong. They can be different weird or even downright bizarre but they are all correct in their own world.
So you can create a topic and expect a flood of spam flame wars and rubbish but all it gets you is either a major Troll boner or a headache.
So you are saying that the 'mor...' users of this forum should not be allowed to decide the topics ?
So it's a kind of hit and miss thing then huh? I'll start a topic about something that I'm interested in and check back in a while to see if it's either been deleted, closed or allowed to exist?
I suppose there's an inverse law in there somewhere, a ratio of something like:
Successful topic = users subject / tin pot dictators opinions
so that the greater the number of people with the ability to close threads based on their own whims the fewer the number of successful postings and the more damage done to the integrity of the forums.
You, in the meantime, think you are doing us all a favour by blindly planting your 'loyalty' with the ones doing the censorship.
In the meanwhile a good user just went along and found a rom he liked visually and with a nice amount of aps he likes. He found it was not his rom and try's another one and keeps trying until he finds his best rom.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And then he is not allowed to tell anyone about it.
when you register acount on this site/forum,do you check YES/accept with the ruules
Because this is a development forum (or we try to be).
Disucssions on the "Best ROM" are subjective, and time limitted. Most people have thier faviorite ROM, this is not the best ROM, but they believe it is. I have seen these threads in the past and they just deteriate into "Fanboi'istic" (word a day ) debates over who's ROM is best and why.
A Clean ROM is fast and customisable, a Loaded ROM is feature rich, a themed ROM is the Chef's taste, etc.
Here is a lengthy discussion which I participated in last time this topic was raised : http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=466666
Thanks
Dave
No ROM is BEST !!!!!1111oneoneone11! (Though personally I think that ****** ROMs are good)
IanMc said:
So you are saying that the 'mor...' users of this forum should not be allowed to decide the topics ?
So it's a kind of hit and miss thing then huh? I'll start a topic about something that I'm interested in and check back in a while to see if it's either been deleted, closed or allowed to exist?
I suppose there's an inverse law in there somewhere, a ratio of something like:
Successful topic = users subject / tin pot dictators opinions
so that the greater the number of people with the ability to close threads based on their own whims the fewer the number of successful postings and the more damage done to the integrity of the forums.
You, in the meantime, think you are doing us all a favour by blindly planting your 'loyalty' with the ones doing the censorship.
And then he is not allowed to tell anyone about it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
IanMc said:
This may be a valid point but how would we know if we are not permitted to talk about it ?
BTW. when I titled this thread 'XDA Censured?' it was a Freudian slip of the computer keyboard I should have typed 'Censored' however 'Censure' means to formally rebuke
I happen to strongly believe in freedom of speech and if people wish to talk about what they think is the best ROM for them and why etc. then if this is indeed a forum for the perpetuation of freedom of speech I think it is very wrong that some individuals should take it upon themselves to decide that this is not a fit topic for discussion and to close threads based on there own personal and dare one say dictatorial opinions.
That is the beginning of a slippery slide down into a cesspit of censorship and we don't want a smelly forum now do we!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can talk the hell out of it, no one is stopping you, just do it in the right place - the build thread.
If you don't like the way moderators run the forum you can delete the account and make your personal Freedom forum or whatever you like...
Personaly I think you are a joke.
Be well and speak freely
btw
As a fellow xda user said above: you accepted the rules which the creators/owners/moderators of this forum ask us to comply with. Period!
IanMc said:
So you are saying that the 'mor...' users of this forum should not be allowed to decide the topics ?
So it's a kind of hit and miss thing then huh? I'll start a topic about something that I'm interested in and check back in a while to see if it's either been deleted, closed or allowed to exist?
I suppose there's an inverse law in there somewhere, a ratio of something like:
Successful topic = users subject / tin pot dictators opinions
so that the greater the number of people with the ability to close threads based on their own whims the fewer the number of successful postings and the more damage done to the integrity of the forums.
You, in the meantime, think you are doing us all a favour by blindly planting your 'loyalty' with the ones doing the censorship.
And then he is not allowed to tell anyone about it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I see that you do not get the point of all this:
- that thread has been closed because it has no point.
- you can discuss the best rom thing for 1000 pages and there will be no BEST ROM, because there is no best rom.
-of course you can tell other people what you think about a rom but your best rom will not be my best rom
- so this is why that thread was closed.
-it is F***ING POINTLESS
- JUST LIKE THIS THREAD.
I agree this thread is totally pointless.
It would be great if a moderator closes it as it brings nothing to discuss just like the other thread that was closed.
If everyone would open a thread like this it would be very hard to find the best rom as the board
would be all cluttered with best rom threads and yes and no discussions.
DaveShaw
That was a very helpful post, the link you posted was most helpful and I especially agree with the well-crafted response from dumpydooby.
I apologise if I have posted in the wrong place and quite understand if this thread is moved to the correct place.
You are also correct that discussions of this nature are time limited.
Obviously we can all see that this is a subject of passion to many.
In my humble opinion there should always be a 'what we think is the best ROM for device X at the moment' thread. When it does get too old or argumentative etc. then just start a new one.
berbecverde
I disagree, I think there will always be a need to discuss the most popular combination of ROM/Radio/Apps of the moment. If you feel strongly that we should not have this freedom then I feel strongly that you are wrong.
lms1407
You just revert to personal insults, I'll bet you say things like 'this conversation is over!'
Avon76
Do you really think that your post was helpful? Honestly?
Massive post wot I prepared earlier follows, look away now if you're not interested.....
I suspect that this whole thread will be deleted or removed or force closed by the censors very soon so read it while you can.
Let me illustrate my points here, remember that I am talking about my dislike for censoring these forums in general for any topics but let's use the topic of discussion of ROMs to show how the censors are damaging the integrity of the forums and shooting themselves in their own feet at the same time.
Let's do it with a thought experiment.
Developers A, B, C and D develop ROMs for device X and make them available to users.
Users, quite within their rights in my opinion decide to discuss the various merits, likes and dislikes about these ROMs in a thread called 'Best ROMs for device X' where one user says 'I liked the graphics on A's ROM but I really liked the apps on D's ROM and I found C's ROM to be a bit unstable and I'm using ROM B at the moment because ...... '
Please imagine your answer for this question.
Who will benefit from this discourse?
Developers A, B, C or D ?
The users ?
Everyone ?
It is quite obvious that some of the users with the ability to close threads have the opinion that all ROMs should be tried and that there should be no shortcuts and new users should be railroaded into having to go through all the procedures that 'everyone else has had to do' and their only method to enforce this policy is to censor what is allowed to be posted but I would like to point out that in doing so they are going against some peoples wishes, look at one of the posts in that other thread (created by a senior member) where one user states:
Personally think this thread is a good idea for people like myself don't have a lot of spare time and haven't flashed a ROM yet; but are interested in doing so and want to know a good place to start, based on more seasoned users experiences.
I for one will be keenly viewing this thread (provided it doesn't get closed!).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
However apart from all the unseen damage that censorship causes, in this particular case the developers might get some valuable insight into what users are actually looking for, a healthy competition might be the result and then who do you think is going to get the benefit in the end? Everyone!
There will always be those who want to try every ROM and Radio etc. but at the moment these people are restricted to the individual ROM threads if they want to share the results of their hard work and anyone who wants to see an objective discussion of the merits of the different ROM/Radio/Apps versions is forced to look on other forums on other websites.
The developers never really get to know what it is that the users really want.
Look at the mechanism at the moment, the user goes to the thread of developer A and says 'you're ROM is the best! Fantastic!, would it be possible to adjust this bit here?' and the developer thinks cool, they really love my ROM and he may or may not get around to adjusting that bit there.
Look at what it could be like:
Yeah, developer A's ROM is ok but I user developer B's ROM at the moment coz A's doesn't do this ...'
No kissass required, if developer A wants everyone to use his ROM then he'll need to make it like everyone wants or better.
Laurentius26
I see the massive amount of posts that you have made, I'm sure that you have been of tremendous help to a lot of people and that your opinion probably carries a lot of weight around here but I have to ask this question, would you not agree that the definition of a pointless post is that no-one replies to it?
Would you not agree that the mere fact that this topic is getting a lot of replies would indicate that it is in fact a topic of interest and therefore cannot be regarded as pointless?
I can see the potential advantages of having such threads, but seeing the number of arguments and fall outs users have already regarding ROMs abilities, chef preferences, what makes a good ROM, etc. it would fail.
If all our users were well bahaved (which they are not), they all stayed on-topic then we wouldn't need as many mods as we do now. As it is, there are many reported posts everyday from users that require mods attention, keeping the forum as organised and as friendly as we can.
Having to maintain "Best ROM" threads would be tiresome with well behaved users, just having to keep closing and re-opening new threads based on public opinion, but throw in troll, flamer's, fanbois it would be work.
In the past we have allowed "ROM Comparison" threads, that are fact driven, not opinion driven, as there is no reason not to.
My other concern is what will happen to Chefs if other users constantly down vote their ROM's (that is if they want to follow that thread as well as their own ROM threads).
Also,
Closing a thread does not censor it. It is still viewable and searchable, new useres, can search the site for the "Best HD2 ROM" and find a link to threads explaining why they are closed and what's the best way to try a new ROM. In guides I have previously assisted in writing (mskip's, Kaiser and Rhodium) it includes text advising users which is ROM to try first. If a user is new to XDA, they are encouraged to post questions in such threads, where (all been well) they will get a reply telling them to just try one after reading about the features. I have suggested NRG's ROMs to new users in the past because of their stability and popularity.
Dave
Well now with good argument like that you are changing my outlook and many of the things you say I had not considered.
I think we are very lucky to have such a place as XDA-Developers and such places show the big guns that there is also genius in the little folk.
If it proves to be too much work to maintain such threads then I quite understand why you won't have them although I can imagine a good moderator might keep an eye on such a thread and take an action like 'I am closing this thread now as it is degenerating into argument and insult, you are welcome to start a new one but be advised that I will close it also unless the discussion is kept at an acceptable level of civility' but if that is too much work then I quite understand why such a topic would not be allowed.
Thanks for your good discussion Dave, at least you don't revert to personal insults as a mechanism for argument
IanMc said:
Well now with good argument like that you are changing my outlook and many of the things you say I had not considered.
I think we are very lucky to have such a place as XDA-Developers and such places show the big guns that there is also genius in the little folk.
If it proves to be too much work to maintain such threads then I quite understand why you won't have them although I can imagine a good moderator might keep an eye on such a thread and take an action like 'I am closing this thread now as it is degenerating into argument and insult, you are welcome to start a new one but be advised that I will close it also unless the discussion is kept at an acceptable level of civility' but if that is too much work then I quite understand why such a topic would not be allowed.
Thanks for your good discussion Dave, at least you don't revert to personal insults as a mechanism for argument
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
For a bit of history this decision was made long before I was a mod, and spent my Senior member days handing out insults to those who created those threads.
Even back then when a good number of users were mature and technical, before android and the mass increase of new members with, the mods (a few still remain ) knew the problems with such threads. As such, I don't think we will ever shift from this position.
Also,
I am a stackoverflow.com user and they have a similar rules on subjective posting for many of the same reasons.
This thread is just retarded even more then the ridiculous "what the best rom" threads.
Those threads are not "censored" they are simply moved or deleted because people are getting sick of them as they are asked every day and the answer is the same every time but still you get n00bs asking.
Its like going into ice0cream shop and saying "hey what your best ice-cream", just plain stupid.
TheATHEiST
Well surely this is just your own personal opinion?
One thread in each ROM area dedicated to users findings of the various ROMs for that device could be invaluable for both developers and users instead of the complete labyrinth it is at the moment (although I read that the HD2 forums are going to be rearranged soon). And it might be a moderator decision to close the thread when it gets too large to keep it current, civil and up-to-date.
However I think people like Dave are the only ones who really know what it is like to maintain such threads.
I would like to point out though that such public forums are for public discussion, it is all too easy to say 'hey that subject is retarded' and attempt to frighten or bully people away from discussing a subject that you don't think is appropriate, but personally I think that is wrong and against the spirit of free discussion on the internet.
IanMc said:
TheATHEiST
Well surely this is just your own personal opinion?
One thread in each ROM area dedicated to users findings of the various ROMs for that device could be invaluable for both developers and users instead of the complete labyrinth it is at the moment (although I read that the HD2 forums are going to be rearranged soon). And it might be a moderator decision to close the thread when it gets too large to keep it current, civil and up-to-date.
However I think people like Dave are the only ones who really know what it is like to maintain such threads.
I would like to point out though that such public forums are for public discussion, it is all too easy to say 'hey that subject is retarded' and attempt to frighten or bully people away from discussing a subject that you don't think is appropriate, but personally I think that is wrong and against the spirit of free discussion on the internet.
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Click to collapse
Go buy a CHE t shirt and go yell at the white house fight the power and all its censorship. Seriously you accepted rules when you registered here. This is not a democracy this is a privately owned forum where moderators decide if some topic is retarded yes or no.
And i hate to bring it to you like this but a retarded monkey fish is less retarded then that topic. No amount of talking or trying to convince your topic is something different then the next what build is best for my HD2 because i am to lazy to search topic. That kind of topic gets closed nearly EVERY DAY.
So again if you are so keen to fight the power buy a che t shirt and go yell at your local government.
Like many, I was more than saddened with what happenned on XDA/X10 forii regarding some development threads yesterday.
Without wanting to start yet another flame war, some suggestions to help to try to prevent this and other nastiness from repeating itself in the future:
TO ALL USERS
- XDA is a space meant for collaboration and sharing information. Use it for that
- XDA is not a chat room. Posts just to thank or put down another user do nothing to help its purpose (There is a reason for the "Thanks" button).
...Nor do posts whose only content is "Use the search tool" or "posted previously in this thread" (w/o further information) or similar - while some people may in fact be lazy enough to not to search/look in some cases it's kind of hard to look through 300+ pages of posts to find 1 link or piece of information. Or to sort through hundreds of hits to a search. If you know the answer to a question, please share it. If not, welll....don't say anything.
- USE THE SEARCH TOOL and HAVE A LOOK AT A FEW PAGES of the thread of interest before posting the question .Likely you will find your answer and it helps PREVENTING threads from reaching the aforementioned 300+ pages, of which maybe like 30 pages actually contain INFORMATION.
- REMEMBER that what you are getting, you are getting for free. That applies both to stuff developed and put up on XDA, be it ROMS, tweaks, patches, whatever and to the wonderful people behind XDA - moderators, etc... whose work is often forgotten. If we as users can't be expected to read through all posts in a forum, why should we expect mods to have to act as if they had the time to do this?
- Having said that, if you like a development/tip/tweak, whatever, use the thanks button and leave it at that. If you don't like something, leave it at that. Posts to the effect of "You are God" or "You sleep with the devil" do nothing but mess with egos. And this forum is about messing with mobile computing platforms, not egos.
TO MODERATORS
- Please refrain from deleting threads. If they get out of hand (and they sometimes do) I humbly suggest that you (a) close them and/or (b) ban any offending users, albeit if only temporarily (aka "suspension").
For all the crap that may have gotten into a thread, most if not all threads contain a lot of useful information that may/will get lost if the thread is deleted. so the non-guilty parties get shafted as badly as the guilty. And I prefer to think that the majority of users are actually interested in moving things forward.
- Just an idea - but rather than having a simple requirement to have an account to post, would it be possible for you guys to set up a system whereby certain forums could only be posted to by users of a certain seniority - and preferably with a distinction to starting new threads or replying to existing threads.
Following on to this, I believe that the seniority requirements can be improved in a relatively easy way - maturity comes from experience, which is not necessarily related to # of posts (any fool can type 30 irrelevant posts in a day). What would you say to a system where, in addition to a minimum # of posts, a user needs to have been a member/at his previous seniority level for a certain amount of time? That should not be too difficult to implement and would help people get into the feel of things before blabbing off. Short tempers usually can't hold off a couple of weeks/months...
- THANKS for this great place!!!! Your efforts are too often forgotten.
TO DEVELOPERS
- Thanks for your time, effort, patience and hard work. We really appreciate it!
- Please consider that the strongest point of Android (hey, I'm posting this to the X10 forum, which is Android, no beef against WM or any other platforms) is that it is OPEN, meaning we can ALL work on it, improve it, tweak it, etc...
- That means that users can by default consider whatever is posted as being OPEN and can do likewise. If you feel that whatever you have developed/done is NOT open, then say so. And if you want a stronger protection for your work, or users aren't respecting your work, then publish it under some kind of license so everyone else knows what to expect and you have legal grounds - GPL, LGPL, ASL, Berkeley, etc... there are a number of them to choose from.
- Collaboration means being open to new ideas, praise and constructive criticism. Attitudes like "THIS **** IS MINE AND NOONE TOUCHES IT" (pardon the profanity) isn't really very constructive in an open source environment. You are not god. Help and inspiration may come from even the least probable places.
Well, that was long-winded. If I have offended anyone (I hope not) pardonnez-moi
"
...Nor do posts whose only content is "Use the search tool" or "posted previously in this thread" (w/o further information) or similar - while some people may in fact be lazy enough to not to search/look in some cases it's kind of hard to look through 300+ pages of posts to find 1 link or piece of information. Or to sort through hundreds of hits to a search. If you know the answer to a question, please share it. If not, welll....don't say anything."
actually. members are supposed to read the thread and look for answers. thus eliminating redundant and repeat posts
All in all though ideas that are already in place
If people respect the rules then good things happen
And as for not deleting threads
if the dev leaves then there no point leaving it open. otherwise we jsut clean them
as someone who runs a forum and moderates, deleting people's posts for no reason, is pretty poor. Mine was deleted for no reason and no explanation. The situation in the end was to the poorer for XDA. As a DEV left, and could be followed up by more. Instead of a calm hand, all members got was a heavey handed approach, threatening bans. Sorry that is a crap way. and in end has lost XDA many members. how sad
-PiLoT- said:
actually. members are supposed to read the thread and look for answers. thus eliminating redundant and repeat posts
All in all though ideas that are already in place
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sure thing - but adding an additional post to JUST say "look in the thread" only makes it longer. No need since the rule is already in place, right?
-PiLoT- said:
And as for not deleting threads
if the dev leaves then there no point leaving it open. otherwise we jsut clean them
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Click to collapse
Precisely - CLOSE them - they will take up some disk space and trickle down through the thread (being closed).
Cleaning some threads would take you guys ages (500+ pages in some cases).
Deleting them however loses information, whether the dev has left or not (he may always come back as has happened...) and only fans flames for conspiracy theories and other idiocies...I do concede that leaving them there may also spur more garbage initially, but that will stop as the (closed) thread ages.
acmbc said:
Sure thing - but adding an additional post to JUST say "look in the thread" only makes it longer. No need since the rule is already in place, right?
yes but sometime sits the steps that people need to take since people will not read the rules
Precisely - CLOSE them - they will take up some disk space and trickle down through the thread (being closed).
Cleaning some threads would take you guys ages (500+ pages in some cases).
Deleting them however loses information, whether the dev has left or not (he may always come back as has happened...) and only fans flames for conspiracy theories and other idiocies...I do concede that leaving them there may also spur more garbage initially, but that will stop as the (closed) thread ages.
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Click to collapse
the last lot of threads were closed not deleted
Crocodile1973 said:
as someone who runs a forum and moderates, deleting people's posts for no reason, is pretty poor. Mine was deleted for no reason and no explanation. The situation in the end was to the poorer for XDA. As a DEV left, and could be followed up by more. Instead of a calm hand, all members got was a heavey handed approach, threatening bans. Sorry that is a crap way. and in end has lost XDA many members. how sad
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some posts are deleted during a routine thread cleanup
Im not saying your suggestions have no merit.
im saying that some of them are already looked into and some wont work as weve tried them in the past
-PiLoT- said:
Im not saying your suggestions have no merit.
im saying that some of them are already looked into and some wont work as weve tried them in the past
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Click to collapse
Kudos to that. If it's been tried and not worked, my bad.
acmbc said:
Like many, I was more than saddened with what happenned on XDA/X10 forii regarding some development threads yesterday.
Without wanting to start yet another flame war, some suggestions to help to try to prevent this and other nastiness from repeating itself in the future:
TO ALL USERS
TO MODERATORS
TO DEVELOPERS
- Thanks for your time, effort, patience and hard work. We really appreciate it!
- Please consider that the strongest point of Android (hey, I'm posting this to the X10 forum, which is Android, no beef against WM or any other platforms) is that it is OPEN, meaning we can ALL work on it, improve it, tweak it, etc...
- That means that users can by default consider whatever is posted as being OPEN and can do likewise. If you feel that whatever you have developed/done is NOT open, then say so. And if you want a stronger protection for your work, or users aren't respecting your work, then publish it under some kind of license so everyone else knows what to expect and you have legal grounds - GPL, LGPL, ASL, Berkeley, etc... there are a number of them to choose from.
- Collaboration means being open to new ideas, praise and constructive criticism. Attitudes like "THIS **** IS MINE AND NOONE TOUCHES IT" (pardon the profanity) isn't really very constructive in an open source environment. You are not god. Help and inspiration may come from even the least probable places.
Well, that was long-winded. If I have offended anyone (I hope not) pardonnez-moi
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
well, my 2 cents
i agree on the "users" part
on the "to moderators" part, i disagree
mods don't need to "refrain" from deleting threads, that's what mods do. they do it for specific reasons, not just because they are self-proclaimed e-gods with a ban hammer. if threads need closed or deleted, that's what mods are here for. also, this site is not a democracy. a lot of members don't seem to understand that petitions and moral support for offending members who were banned or threads closed/deleted, will not exactly unban/reopen. granted, i'm sure if there was a collaborated majority between the mods, it will. but users making 30+ separate threads on the same subject (or lately the same dev) only makes things worse. all of these trip apostles are doing more harm than good. i know all these recent trip threads annoy the crap out of me, i can only imagine the work and annoyance it brings moderators.
as far as the dev section of your post goes
you can't take info/sources from some, then accuse EVERY dev for using yours, making comments like "i'm going to download this and check the files for my sources". seriously, it's unprofessional and immature.
as far as the trip situation goes
i have no idea what happened last night, but, where as he may be a great dev, being a dev is NOT for him. he cannot take criticism, he wants to share nothing with other devs, he was not working collabratively with anyone to benefit the community, and honestly, he seems the have the attitude of a 14 y/o girl. how many times does one person need to "threaten with leaving", then never doing so. then upon realizing that not enough begs to stay filled his ego, actually leave only to make a sudden reappearance because, there's really no other dev site out there to the extent of xda.
this isn't the first time he's been gone, although i this time was not his choice, i'm sure he will be back again.
oh, one other thing, you go to any other sub-forum on xda, and there is no drama like there is on the x10 sections. seriously, did SE market these things specifically to 14 y/o drama queens?
svtfmook said:
well, my 2 cents
i agree on the "users" part
on the "to moderators" part, i disagree
mods don't need to "refrain" from deleting threads, that's what mods do. they do it for specific reasons, not just because they are self-proclaimed e-gods with a ban hammer. if threads need closed or deleted, that's what mods are here for. also, this site is not a democracy. a lot of members don't seem to understand that petitions and moral support for offending members who were banned or threads closed/deleted, will not exactly unban/reopen. granted, i'm sure if there was a collaborated majority between the mods, it will. but users making 30+ separate threads on the same subject (or lately the same dev) only makes things worse. all of these trip apostles are doing more harm than good. i know all these recent trip threads annoy the crap out of me, i can only imagine the work and annoyance it brings moderators.
as far as the dev section of your post goes
you can't take info/sources from some, then accuse EVERY dev for using yours, making comments like "i'm going to download this and check the files for my sources". seriously, it's unprofessional and immature.
as far as the trip situation goes
i have no idea what happened last night, but, where as he may be a great dev, being a dev is NOT for him. he cannot take criticism, he wants to share nothing with other devs, he was not working collabratively with anyone to benefit the community, and honestly, he seems the have the attitude of a 14 y/o girl. how many times does one person need to "threaten with leaving", then never doing so. then upon realizing that not enough begs to stay filled his ego, actually leave only to make a sudden reappearance because, there's really no other dev site out there to the extent of xda.
this isn't the first time he's been gone, although i this time was not his choice, i'm sure he will be back again.
oh, one other thing, you go to any other sub-forum on xda, and there is no drama like there is on the x10 sections. seriously, did SE market these things specifically to 14 y/o drama queens?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree with you.
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate Trip's work, heck, I even use it on my phone these past months.
There's a post I made in "News about current circumstances" thread that explains my point extensively.
Also, I know it in my gut that he will be back for sure.
You know why?
He feeds on publicity and Modaco forums are too low-populated for his huge ego.
I hope though, that upon his return he will be much more sophisticated and reasonable,
for the sake of every one here.
One can always dream...
PS: I was a 14 year old girl 10 years ago and, man, I'm telling you, I was a major drama queen.
I want to believe I've grown out of it though.
I really think the ideas from the original post would be used in some way at least. Good post OP. Hope xda considers this. There are some great ideas here.
Sent from my X10i using XDA Premium App