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I'm an intermediate (Windows) PC user and slightly more technically inclined than most of my friends and family. I bought the Dream because of it's tight integration with GMail and the promise of untold useful apps. I have some awesome apps such as 4 Timers, My Tracks, Wireless Tether, which are useful in my everyday life, and they were all free (although I donate to developers when i think its justified).
My Dream is a vastly better phone in many ways than my last (Nokia N85) and at first I enjoyed flashing new roms and the ability to change my phone in different ways.
I'm currently running Cyanogen 4.0.2 which is a great rom, but to get the most out of it and actually have a sweet running phone it seems almost required to keep up with the changes on the Dream Dev forum, read hundreds of posts, learn how to install scripts and tweek settings, add ext partitions on your sdcard for swap files, know what compcache is, etc etc.
I realise that the devs are doing everything they can to give us the best performance from our phones, and i am very grateful and applaud it. I just wish it was a little easier to keep my phone being the best it can be.
What I am really getting at is that the Dream has its obvious hardware limitations (lack of RAM and rubbish battery life being the most obvious) and I'm kind of getting to the point where I want a new phone that doesn't require so much work.
None of the recent Android phones that I have heard about offer a full 5 row qwerty keyboard. That's what i want, along with perhaps a flash on the camera and a battery that lasts a couple of days with moderate use.
I will not jump ship and go elsewhere, as I love Android, but i think a manufacturer would clean up if they released a phone with the above specs and perhaps 512mb RAM - I know i would buy it in a second, and at any price within reason.
Anyone else feel this way?
setspeed said:
I'm an intermediate (Windows) PC user and slightly more technically inclined than most of my friends and family. I bought the Dream because of it's tight integration with GMail and the promise of untold useful apps. I have some awesome apps such as 4 Timers, My Tracks, Wireless Tether, which are useful in my everyday life, and they were all free (although I donate to developers when i think its justified).
My Dream is a vastly better phone in many ways than my last (Nokia N85) and at first I enjoyed flashing new roms and the ability to change my phone in different ways.
I'm currently running Cyanogen 4.0.2 which is a great rom, but to get the most out of it and actually have a sweet running phone it seems almost required to keep up with the changes on the Dream Dev forum, read hundreds of posts, learn how to install scripts and tweek settings, add ext partitions on your sdcard for swap files, know what compcache is, etc etc.
I realise that the devs are doing everything they can to give us the best performance from our phones, and i am very grateful and applaud it. I just wish it was a little easier to keep my phone being the best it can be.
What I am really getting at is that the Dream has its obvious hardware limitations (lack of RAM and rubbish battery life being the most obvious) and I'm kind of getting to the point where I want a new phone that doesn't require so much work.
None of the recent Android phones that I have heard about offer a full 5 row qwerty keyboard. That's what i want, along with perhaps a flash on the camera and a battery that lasts a couple of days with moderate use.
I will not jump ship and go elsewhere, as I love Android, but i think a manufacturer would clean up if they released a phone with the above specs and perhaps 512mb RAM - I know i would buy it in a second, and at any price within reason.
Anyone else feel this way?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can always just load a rom that is stable and one you like and leave it. Your not forced to always update. If you always want the newest and greatest then you have to update, we all knew that when we started doing this.
The unfortunate thing is that ALL roms i've tried have problems with them - things that dont work, bugs introduced when things are changed. And the devs fix some of the probs in the next release, but then new bugs become apparent.
I know this is the nature of development, and I understand this is only way devs can work to push things forward. But it means living with bugs or upgrading the rom to the next version.
I've not found a rom that has the stabililty/simplicity i really want to just use the phone, and not have to mess around with it all the time, or get annoyed because it wont keep programs like the browser running when you change to do something else, or put up with not being able to rely on the phone for its core function of making and receiving calls and lagging left right & centre.
I think that Android's true requirements are beyond the Dream's hardware - and much as devs try, they will never get past that fact, they will just find progressively better workarounds which "sort of" do the job.
If I were you I would go with an older build instead of a newer one that still has bugs. I'm still on Cyanogens 3.9.5 and have no problems with it at all, no bugs or nothing and happy with it. There is also old dude's builds that I use to be on a long time ago that was stable with no bugs also. But of course since those are older builds it might be hard to find, but if your wanting to take a step back and go to something stable and no bugs let me know I still got all roms on my pc at home.
I am running cyan 4.02 and have no problems whatsoever from it, you really don't have to stay on top off it at all times since you are more technical than most as you say, you can turn around and read the first post and the change log and have a good idea of what is going on. You might have a problem with the costant devolpment but I find it great that people are taking the time to get the android platform better than it was in the beginning, don't be suprised if people from google are on here taking ideas and hard work to make the general source better. The better android gets will only get better with more devolpment, remember the magic and hero just came out still basiclly running the same base as we are. Oh and some of us just got into new contracts and just got their phones and don't want to run out and buy a new phone just cause it has better specs, I want my phone to live up to it's upmost performance possibe by these work arounds so that the next android phone that I get will be 100 times better and more efficent on that hardware
supremeteam:
I think you're right - I've just restored my cyanogen 3.6.5 backup and I forgot how decent it is, using swapper it does respond quite well. To be fair, the only reason i upgraded past 3.6.5 was because I was always having a problem with the HTC_IME - it would never stay on "phone keypad" rather than "qwerty", and it also interfered with my physical keyboard by turning on the "enable prediction for qwerty keyboard" option. Other than that I never had any problems with it. This problem is a BIG annoyance though...
Oh - and the fact that the phone rings (silently) about 3 times before anything is shown on the screen or a ringtone is heard. Forgot about that one...
Also, I'd just like to add that I am in no way bashing cyanogen - i have found his roms to be the best/fastest/most stable out all i have tried, hence why i am using them. I have used a few other roms that were just a joke, with force closes all over the place, and much more serious bugs/errors than i have mentioned here.
Overall, for me, i think cyanogen is the best dev out there, consistently pushing the boundaries of performance, and regularly updating his rom. That much is obvious from the popularity of his roms' threads.
update withdraw
I agree with you that cyanogen is a great devolper but so are jac and drizzy and those other guys that are putting a ton of work into hero, maybe soon we will have a good working rosie but in the mean time I could rant how those are buggy and lag a lot, but even with a cupcake rom you have to break a few eggs to make an olmet and that are the bugs that we are gonna have to live with, truthfully I am addicted like a drug addict to all the constant update from cyan to see what is next to come, just the fact the I have been on 4.02 for a couple days is making me go through update withdraw, I flash a hero rom just for the hell of it just to see the progress, it was on my phone for maybe a whole 10 minutes before I booted my nandroid backup of 4.02
gridlock32404 said:
I am running cyan 4.02 and have no problems whatsoever from it, you really don't have to stay on top off it at all times since you are more technical than most as you say, you can turn around and read the first post and the change log and have a good idea of what is going on. You might have a problem with the costant devolpment but I find it great that people are taking the time to get the android platform better than it was in the beginning, don't be suprised if people from google are on here taking ideas and hard work to make the general source better. The better android gets will only get better with more devolpment, remember the magic and hero just came out still basiclly running the same base as we are. Oh and some of us just got into new contracts and just got their phones and don't want to run out and buy a new phone just cause it has better specs, I want my phone to live up to it's upmost performance possibe by these work arounds so that the next android phone that I get will be 100 times better and more efficent on that hardware
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I do appreciate what you're saying - that i want to have my cake and eat it! I suppose that's true in some respects. I can honestly say that my Dream is the best phone I've ever had, and the efforts the devs make to push the envelope are just amazing! Their knowledge and skills are something special - and to do it all for the love of it (and of course the respect of the community!) is definitely to be applauded.
I do also hope that google devs do read these forums, and incorporate the work into the official roms! I think they should pay the devs on xda, as they clearly do a lot of work that google ought to have done!
I hope that google does donate to these devs because they have done an amazing job with what they have to work with, I just wish I understood programming better and had the patience for it, I think my phone is better than my computer now, wait anything is better the my computer right now since I burned out my power supply. By far this is the best phone I have ever owned and now I am a android lifer because of the devs. When I first got my phone, it was worthless to me before I rooted it, good thing I found xda back when I had my wing so I knew right where to go and by the end of the first day I had it, it was already rooted
If google pays the devs or give them jobs then we will have to wait long time for our update and cool stuff, they need to just donate lots of money to them so they keep hooking us up first at xda and not the general masses all at once, I don't think they could handle the general awesomeness
setspeed said:
I'm an intermediate (Windows) PC user and slightly more technically inclined than most of my friends and family. I bought the Dream because of it's tight integration with GMail and the promise of untold useful apps. I have some awesome apps such as 4 Timers, My Tracks, Wireless Tether, which are useful in my everyday life, and they were all free (although I donate to developers when i think its justified).
My Dream is a vastly better phone in many ways than my last (Nokia N85) and at first I enjoyed flashing new roms and the ability to change my phone in different ways.
I'm currently running Cyanogen 4.0.2 which is a great rom, but to get the most out of it and actually have a sweet running phone it seems almost required to keep up with the changes on the Dream Dev forum, read hundreds of posts, learn how to install scripts and tweek settings, add ext partitions on your sdcard for swap files, know what compcache is, etc etc.
I realise that the devs are doing everything they can to give us the best performance from our phones, and i am very grateful and applaud it. I just wish it was a little easier to keep my phone being the best it can be.
What I am really getting at is that the Dream has its obvious hardware limitations (lack of RAM and rubbish battery life being the most obvious) and I'm kind of getting to the point where I want a new phone that doesn't require so much work.
None of the recent Android phones that I have heard about offer a full 5 row qwerty keyboard. That's what i want, along with perhaps a flash on the camera and a battery that lasts a couple of days with moderate use.
I will not jump ship and go elsewhere, as I love Android, but i think a manufacturer would clean up if they released a phone with the above specs and perhaps 512mb RAM - I know i would buy it in a second, and at any price within reason.
Anyone else feel this way?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
its like you read my mind
When the G1 came out it was the only Android powered device so modding it worked for everybody. And it was just one brand, HTC, so this forum was a one stop destination for modding our phone.
However, things have changed, now there are multiple phone with incompatible hardware from different manufacturers. Now a custom rom made for the G1, won't work on a DROID for example and vise versa. This complicates things quite a bit.
Right now Cyanogen mods are the best thing for our G1 and maybe the best thing for Android as a whole. I'm used to the build in tether capability and apps to SD and compcace and the other perks of a modded rom. But if I wanted to upgrade my phone, I would lose it all.
There are no Cyanogen mod for anything other than G1 and myTouch phones as far as I know and if I were to upgrade to DROID, I would lose root, lose tether, lose apps to SD, lose everything about my phone that makes it my phone.
Everything I wrote may not be facts, I don't really know what goes on at other forums, but I know that we don't have roms build to run on the DROID and we don't have them built to run on the HERO hardware, it's all for G1 and myTouch, and it seems to me that if I don't ha.ve on of those phones, I lose everything.
I do understand that this forum is for HTC devices which DROID and a few other's are not which is why I don't see homebrew for them. Is there a another website similar to this that supports all Android hardware?
These are thoughts that have been running through my head lately. If I am totally wrong here, please let me know.
I would say check out websites such as androidcommunity.com, androidandme.com, phandroid.com. The developers might not be on there but you can probably find links to where there are custom roms for the phones.
And you are right about different phones having different development oppurtunities. I thought about this today and realized that the next android phone I get not only has to be what I want but also be a popular phone that will attract developers such as cyan, maxisma, jac, manup and everyone else. My best guess and hope is that it will be a snapdragon android handset, hopefully for T-Mobile USA.
What we'll end up having to do is pick our phones based on it's community support and what kind of home brew is available for it.
The reason I love the G1 is the fact that it's rooted and has a large community. This phone is the best on the market, all things considered, because the rooted OS allows so much.
If and when the Droid is rooted, when a GSM version is released, and when it has T-Mo's 3G bands, I will move to it. But all those may not happen for another year or more. If you haven't played with a Droid yet, do so. Incredible speed and the best screen I have ever seen on a phone. Till then, G1 all the way.
The man is right, we have a problem on the dev side.
I think though, once 2.0 gets standard, we'll only need root for a few things like tethering and setting the CPU clock. Really cyanogen's only advantage is optimization, but once 2.0 and snapdragon rolls around, who cares? We'll always want to tinker, but it won't eclipse getting the phone you want.
The big problems right now are that the market isn't getting what it needs. Nothing compares to the HTC widgets, yet instead of cloning them on the market, we try and run a ROM that doesn't even work on our phones! We still don't have BT in Hero and it may just never happen.
2.0 will be what we need as a base, but the market needs our help now.
I'd contest the cyanogen are the best rom's.. maybe for someoen who wants to flash an upgrade every 3 days.. but for the majority of users.. Dwang is the way to go. Lengthy discussion about this, is over here..
alec.baldwin said:
I'd contest the cyanogen are the best rom's.. maybe for someoen who wants to flash an upgrade every 3 days.. but for the majority of users.. Dwang is the way to go. Lengthy discussion about this, is over here..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks but this thread is not about who has the best rom.
The point is, when you get a new Android phone, your rom of choice won't be available for it. So what do you do?
alec.baldwin said:
I'd contest the cyanogen are the best rom's.. maybe for someoen who wants to flash an upgrade every 3 days.. but for the majority of users.. Dwang is the way to go. Lengthy discussion about this, is over here..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think we all get it already, YOU are dwang's biggest fan
But, to stay on topic. My G1 is the first HTC device I've ever owned and I've only discovered XDA since I've had it, and I think that because of the community involvement here and the custom roms that have come out, I will definitely lean towards another HTC phone when I look for my next upgrade, and it will definately be an android phone.
Also another thing to look at is the availability of the phones that are out to actual dev's. Unless people are donating phones, I doubt everyone can just run out and pick up all the latest devices, and network restrictions/preferences that come along with them.
I think the easiest solution is as follows:
1. Find the dev you like best.
2. Find the phone you like best.
3. Buy phone you like best.
4. Buy/Create a donate link to get said dev the same phone.
Assuming said dev doesnt turn around and craigslist the phone you bought him/her, you have (hopefully) ensured said dev will migrate and develop on your favorite hardware.
Not the best solution but probably the most reliable.
alec.baldwin said:
I'd contest the cyanogen are the best rom's.. maybe for someoen who wants to flash an upgrade every 3 days.. but for the majority of users.. Dwang is the way to go. Lengthy discussion about this, is over here..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Seriously dude, are you going to diss me in every thread? What do you even contribute to this community? I've not received any patches or even logs of the "problems" you claim.
cyanogen said:
Seriously dude, are you going to diss me in every thread? What do you even contribute to this community? I've not received any patches or even logs of the "problems" you claim.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
For real.
Alec, you're like the little annoying brother that no one wants to be around.
Grow up, let your balls drop, and enjoy your phone, your life, and whatever rom you want.
But, you don't have to go around dissing well-respected devs.
The Droid hasn't been out long enough for a community to gather around it. Many of the Android big names are waiting to get GSM versions before tinkering.
Also, remember that the HTC Dream was in circulation well before it launched last year. The Android development phone is identical to the Dream, with the only difference being some swish art on the back cover. The hardware and software were free-flowing long before it landed in our hands. In contrast, the Droid was a much more secretive launch; we've only just got Eclair source code, and the SDK was kept under wraps by a non-disclosure agreement (probably to conceal the nuclear bomb that is Google Maps Navigation).
I find the cracking of the Droid to be inevitable. The poor thing is going to be broken just as much as our Dreams were. Just give it time.
As for ROMs being available over a span of phones, I'm not sure that's even a good idea. Android variants like XROM, cyanogenmod, The Dude's ROM, yadda yadda... they're all about maximising the capabilities of the Dream. Not the Droid, the Dream. Adding in features that the hardware can support, changing CPU frequencies, Apps2SD, all that jazz. Droid ROMs will be built around adding in core features, like Apps2SD, and whatever else the Droid has tucked away. Likewise, speed optimisations may not be portable between phones, as what gives the Dream a boost may hinder the Droid.
For me, features of a ROM are not the best part of homebrew Android builds. The best part is being able to upgrade your phone outside of the carrier's say-so. If T-mobile have no plans to push Eclair to Dreams, I will install it myself. I am not tied down by the say-so of a room full of suits three thousand miles away. If T-mobile don't include an app that I like, such as the IM app or the Amazon MP3 store (which T-mobile UK don't), I can get ROMs with them myself. If a carrier would rather I didn't tether without paying for my bandwidth twice, I can do it anyway, so long as I'm not an idiot.
You may have guessed that I have a very dim view of cell carriers.
With root, we are free to do as we like. This is the real killer feature of homebrew, and the Droid will benefit from it too.
Anyway...
dwang said:
I want to acknowledge cyanogen, daproy, cyrowski, loccy, and alla for their contributions to the android community.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It seems dwang himself has a much higher opinion of the man than a certain other someone.
AthlonBoy said:
The Droid hasn't been out long enough for a community to gather around it. Many of the Android big names are waiting to get GSM versions before tinkering.
Also, remember that the HTC Dream was in circulation well before it launched last year. The Android development phone is identical to the Dream, with the only difference being some swish art on the back cover. The hardware and software were free-flowing long before it landed in our hands. In contrast, the Droid was a much more secretive launch; we've only just got Eclair source code, and the SDK was kept under wraps by a non-disclosure agreement (probably to conceal the nuclear bomb that is Google Maps Navigation).
I find the cracking of the Droid to be inevitable. The poor thing is going to be broken just as much as our Dreams were. Just give it time.
As for ROMs being available over a span of phones, I'm not sure that's even a good idea. Android variants like XROM, cyanogenmod, The Dude's ROM, yadda yadda... they're all about maximising the capabilities of the Dream. Not the Droid, the Dream. Adding in features that the hardware can support, changing CPU frequencies, Apps2SD, all that jazz. Droid ROMs will be built around adding in core features, like Apps2SD, and whatever else the Droid has tucked away. Likewise, speed optimisations may not be portable between phones, as what gives the Dream a boost may hinder the Droid.
For me, features of a ROM are not the best part of homebrew Android builds. The best part is being able to upgrade your phone outside of the carrier's say-so. If T-mobile have no plans to push Eclair to Dreams, I will install it myself. I am not tied down by the say-so of a room full of suits three thousand miles away. If T-mobile don't include an app that I like, such as the IM app or the Amazon MP3 store (which T-mobile UK don't), I can get ROMs with them myself. If a carrier would rather I didn't tether without paying for my bandwidth twice, I can do it anyway, so long as I'm not an idiot.
You may have guessed that I have a very dim view of cell carriers.
With root, we are free to do as we like. This is the real killer feature of homebrew, and the Droid will benefit from it too.
Anyway...
It seems dwang himself has a much higher opinion of the man than a certain other someone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You seem to have almost got my point but not quite. Of coarse DOID doesn't need Cyanogen MOD specifically. But would you buy an Android phone if there weren't a mod that lets it do the things that we are used to and have only become available by modding? Apps to SD, tethering, themeing?
Sure DROID might get all these things though a custom rom but we won't see it on this website. The problem is that things will get too spread out and hard to find with all these new hardware options.
What would be nice is a rom that works on nearly every Android device that just adds root access to the phone and some basic universal packages like A2SD and tethering etc. That way you can buy any Android device you want and still have these basic privileges.
Do you think something like that would be possible?
Pinesal said:
You seem to have almost got my point but not quite. Of coarse DOID doesn't need Cyanogen MOD specifically. But would you buy an Android phone if there weren't a mod that lets it do the things that we are used to and have only become available by modding? Apps to SD, tethering, themeing?
Sure DROID might get all these things though a custom rom but we won't see it on this website. The problem is that things will get too spread out and hard to find with all these new hardware options.
What would be nice is a rom that works on nearly every Android device that just adds root access to the phone and some basic universal packages like A2SD and tethering etc. That way you can buy any Android device you want and still have these basic privileges.
Do you think something like that would be possible?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Beats me, man. I'm not a developer. But I think it's unlikely.
For the DROID (and other/future android phones) is Apps2SD really necessary? The only reason why we need it on our phones is because of the pathetic amount of internal space the G1 has, the same goes for Swap Partitions etc.
As long as people buy the phone there is always going to be someone who is smart enough to work on rooting it IMO. And even without root what do you really lose? The only things I think I would really miss are Wireless Tether and Bluetooth File Transfer (Which I THINK is in 2.0 anyway).
I'm not buying a new phone until it's rooted and Cyanogen has it too.
My biggest requirement for any android phone..and any cell phone in general is the keyboard. I bought the G1 because of the keyboard and lucked out with the high number of developers available for it. I didn't find this place for several months during the time when the grandfather of the G1 mod program was still active =) JF!. I enjoyed all the modding and updating because I personally feel that the phone is, well mine. And I should be able to do what ever I want with it. I had picked up the V3C Razer because it could play MP3's. I get it home and then discover that the Verizon Nazi's completely locked down that feature so you where forced to use their service at an additional cost. Of course the motorola dev/repair/store software allowed us to get in a enable the various features that Verizon required to be locked. I also love the Aps2sd. No matter what phone you have, the internal memory will never be enough. And with the Cliq supporting 32gig sd cards, a full keyboard, and NOT verizon was enough for me. I'm patient and confident it will be rooted eventually. If not, I still have my G1 and I still do Cyanogen updates and play around with it. And when my contract is up with Tmob(renewed for the Cliq), I'll see who has the next most popular rooted phone with a keyboard and switch over. I just really hate people telling me how to use a device I own. Its like going to McDonalds and having them dictate what condiments to put on my BigMac and Fries, and then telling me I can only eat it a certain way and which hand to use. If Cyanogen was down with the Cliq, or interested in it. I may be willing to ship him my phone to see what he can come up with.
As far as a universal O/S for all phones, isn't that just the core Android software with specific drivers provided by each manufacturer and custom UI? There should be a way to make 1 O/S for all android phones, then have update packs with the drivers and UI enhancements and add-ons for each android phone released? Not sure of the SPL locks though. Thats a bit beyond me. But i wouldn't think it would be to hard to run Cyanogen on the Cliq or droid provided the correct drivers and such where bundled with it. Kind of like slipstreaming a service pack into a bootleg Windows OS . Each phone eventually has to release the source code which contains the drivers for that phone. Thats how we get the Cliq's OS onto the G1, should work the other way around too. Sounds easy, but Cyanogen's Rom should run on my Cliq, provided the drivers are slipstreamed into it for the Cliq...right? Only problem is root.. :/ hehehe
and there he flames again...alec.baldwin, no one has the problems you have with cyanogen's latest. actually, lets delve into this...what exactly are your "problems" with 4.2.5? PLEASE, answer this question so cyanogen can dutifully fix the "problems" you are having.
You might check out some of the Q/A threads to first learn how to properly flash cyanogen's ROM. It is slightly different than Dwang's because Cyanogen uses the legal method. In fact, check out www.cyanogenmod.com and you might find a ton of useful info on getting cm to work on your phone.
Best of Luck,
njuncos
P.S. Cyanogen, mad props on once again reaching over a million thread views on your latest. Now you own 3 of the top 4 most viewed threads of all time in Dream Android Development!
Hello all,
This post is meant so we can get to know each other before the dev community gets going. This way we learn what each other's strengths are and can maybe get things going better.
My name is Chuck and I am a well versed XDAer. I came from the HTC Wizard and WinMo and then moved on to the G1. There I learned from guys like JF, Haykuro and, everyone's hero, Cyanogen. I didn't really do any devving there though. I then moved on to the Hero and since we didn't really have any devs I stepped up and learned how to cook roms. Then I learned how to compile AOSP and kernels. I built the Gutted Hero rom, which I eventually abandoned due to time restraints but I know that won't happen here. I am attempting to learn more about linux exploits and gaining root so that hopefully I can help root this beautiful device when it comes today.
So anyone else who wants to please join in and let us know your background.
Hi Chuck!
I'm pretty much a n00b when it comes to the dev environment, but I want to jump in and get my hands dirty I started reading XDA back when the HTC Titan (Mogul) first hit the scenes, but then jumped into a Blackberry... Since jumping, I haven't really looked back into wanting to learn until news of Android... Then mentions of the HTC "Supersonic" coming to a CDMA carrier (I have Sprint btw) and as well as the N1 possibly releasing a CDMA version. That caught my attention and now I really want to learn and jump into developing!
Now I'm trying to read up as much from the different Android forums, but it's all so much... Trying to take it one step at a time. I'm not a complete n00b when technology is involved, as I used to build boxes back in the day of Pentium II/III, AMD T-Bird days, PC Tech for Gateway (when they had stores), and the sorts...
Stinks that the N1 is not coming to Sprint, but I am planning on getting the Evo. Definately wanting and willing to learn as much as I can!
admin over at SDX-developers.com
wrote my own root exploit for the samsung moment on android 2.1
modified/tweaked an open source recovery
with released open source linux kernel 2.6.27 and 2.6.29, compiled many custom kernels
strong suite, linux. decent with java. terrible with being creative like theming.
excited to work together on the EVO!
edit: for those interested - my android 2.1 resume all with the Samsung Moment
Root Exploit for Android 2.1
Online Kitchen
Linux 2.6.29 Android 2.1 Custom Kernel
Hey guys,
Ok, i have background what so ever... But im slowly learning java so i can start coding and so on with android. So basically my cup is empty...
just wanted to say hi !
Oh and another thing i wanted to add, I was always the guy that devs get files and stuff to for testing and made guides on how to install things and so on ^.^
side note
Themer
Well this is a nice way to meet each other and see what we can assist each other with. I began with editing files, back in the Apache the small fridge looking device . I've been in the windows scene for about 3-5 yrs or so and modded, and mostly created themes. In that time frameI learned to edit manila files,make cabs, and learned how to edit all different software ui apps, windows, and shell. The Vogue had the android files arranged and worked with to use in the sdcard and have the android working with it working I found out how to edit files and do some soft modding. I then learned how to theme but with family and biz I've still got the need to sit down and learn to package, and the rest of the guru qualities as some of you may have. Here is a thread I've begun as I did with the Hero for all creations, mods, themes etc to be shared. I've enjoyed learning and being a part of XDA, looking forward to the fellowship. I've begun editing the Evo files and created some clock's and will continue with rosie, taskbar and apk's you can view it here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=685537
Apache-Mogul-Vogue Touch-TouchPro-Hero-Evo soon
Thanks to you all that played a part in rooting, roms, modding and making it possible for themers to give it a touch of class to share with everyone as you have with your work.. Thank you
Good idea for a thread.
I'm Justin--but it's easier to go by Shidell--and I'm moving over from the Vogue community. Within the last two years I've gotten serious about development, and have a strong .NET background with a (growing) C/C++ background. However, linux is still pretty foreign to me, which makes development on that platform somewhat challenging.
With the Vogue, I compiled my own build of Eclair for it from AOSP, and worked with Dzo, mssmison, jnadke (and others, all the names evade me right now) on updating/fixing the GPS library.
I'm fairly clueless when it comes to the bootloader, the kernel, how one would go about exploiting either to achieve root (or even how to go about doing so), but I'm eager to learn and help.
I plan on keeping my Vogue and continuing to learn by using that as a test device for more serious ambitions (kernel development/flashing, etc.) But I'll be actively involved in this community as well. Please feel free to ping me with questions, requests for assistance, etc.
(Also, I do have an Evo via Google I/O, so if you're looking for data a bit early, I'd be glad to help.)
Hello all- I have no experience with this stuff at all other rooting & running different roms/hacks on my former devices (g1 & mt3g) so I was debating whether to even post this here...however I am very interested in learning as much as I can about everything mentioned above & more- it is fascinating to me!
So any suggestions on where to start learning (books/links/etc)?
6/4/10 can't get get here soon enough!
tester here
i am willing to begin testing you may send me a pm and we can discuss over gtalk.
i have years of experience of flashing my phone numerous times back in the ppc6700 days and have had a moment since january and always flashing off sdx and am glad to be back on xda! hit me up ill work with you and tell you what bugs i find etc after i know your phone wasnt bricked
Hello, im a loyal follower of joeykrim from sdx-developers. No experience in writing or creating, but MORE than willing to be a test dummy, guide writer, as i can be quite explicit (the good kind), or a noob helper. pm me and i can get you my email address, phone number, or we can chat through facebook. not currently using any other methods of communication but im willing to switch to anything else more universally accepted by these fine forums.
EDIT: joined xda because the evo is coming out, and i hear this is THE place for htc devices. want to give all the assistance i can
My name is Dan, though I also go by Q. I got an EVO at Google I/O, and want to get it rooted while I still can (an NDA may get in the way soon)
I've been hacking on Linux for 8 years now, and know the entire system very well. I'm also not particularly afraid to solder (which is unfortunate, because I'm also not particularly good at it), so that may be an option. I also have a Droid and a Google ION.
I'm a jack-of-all-trades. I know some C, mediocre C++, C# expert, some java (easy to pick up), php, vb.net, etc. I know hardware, but not embedded stuff. I'm the geek that other computer geeks come to. You get the idea.
But, what skills are you using to modify the Android kernel? Do I need to know assembly? C++? I know I need to know C and the Linux kernel, but how much of the kernel do I need to know? Beginner, so-so, professional, expert? Do I need to know embedded Linux specifically? Do I need to know Linux drivers?
Just point me into the right direction, thanks!
I currently have the G1 from 2 years ago. I'm put my deposit down, and getting my EVO on 6/4/2010. I look forward to learning from you guys.
im well... toastcfh been through a lot with linux for sure. it all started with my old Dell Axim X50. i began working on linux for that device before android was a real deal. then i got a HTC Diamond and did a lot of kernel work for the support of linux on it and other HTC devices. got my HTC Heroc by a streak of luck and smooth talking for free (sprint can be dumb) . anyhow, on the Heroc i managed to be a big part of root,porting and development for it. the main things im known for is my work on Eclair for the Heroc and more recently my port of Eris 2.6.29 kernel source to the Heroc. creating my own board files through a lot of creative debugging and previous struggles with backporting drivers from .29 to .27. at the moment its the only .29 source for the Heroc as Sprint/HTC hasnt even released the .29 source for the device yet. also my work with overclocking the Heroc, but those are just notable contributions to the community ive made. im also the kind of person that is willing to help almost anyone. ask anyone whose ever asked for my help. i believe in the idea of open source and helping others. i also believe in giving credit where credit is due. or at least giving it the boyscout effort anyhow i cant promise ill be ablee to make ur EVO turn into a skynet and cleanup the oil spill in the Gulf. but i can promise that ill damn sure try. im not one to be told it cant be done, nor will i ever except that statement unless it can be proven without a shadow of a doubt (btw its pretty hard to prove to me )
anyhow im looking forward to root, as we need that first and for most. im happy to know we got some awesome devs here and coming soon.
as a single developer i am nothing. but together we can have everything.
toastcfh said:
im well... toastcfh been through a lot with linux for sure. it all started with my old Dell Axim X50. i began working on linux for that device before android was a real deal. then i got a HTC Diamond and did a lot of kernel work for the support of linux on it and other HTC devices. got my HTC Heroc by a streak of luck and smooth talking for free (sprint can be dumb) . anyhow, on the Heroc i managed to be a big part of root,porting and development for it. the main things im known for is my work on Eclair for the Heroc and more recently my port of Eris 2.6.29 kernel source to the Heroc. creating my own board files through a lot of creative debugging and previous struggles with backporting drivers from .29 to .27. at the moment its the only .29 source for the Heroc as Sprint/HTC hasnt even released the .29 source for the device yet. also my work with overclocking the Heroc, but those are just notable contributions to the community ive made. im also the kind of person that is willing to help almost anyone. ask anyone whose ever asked for my help. i believe in the idea of open source and helping others. i also believe in giving credit where credit is due. or at least giving it the boyscout effort anyhow i cant promise ill be ablee to make ur EVO turn into a skynet and cleanup the oil spill in the Gulf. but i can promise that ill damn sure try. im not one to be told it cant be done, nor will i ever except that statement unless it can be proven without a shadow of a doubt (btw its pretty hard to prove to me )
anyhow im looking forward to root, as we need that first and for most. im happy to know we got some awesome devs here and coming soon.
as a single developer i am nothing. but together we can have everything.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes! youre getting an evo 4g! we're going to have a nice group of devs here ..i having a feeling toast is going to be the one to port froyo
Cheers to all the great devs speaking out. I've been watching the android game from the sidelines since the G1... I've been a palm loyalist for the longest time, but I'm finally dropping the Pre to jump onthe EVO.
Can't wait to get into customs roms (bleh to Sense, hoping for vanilla froyo).
I'll be everyone's testpig, I promise
Hey guys, I'm Kyle. Currently a computer science major at Berkeley. I haven't really messed around with Android before, but I attended I/O and received an Evo. I really want to get this thing rooted, but I have no idea where to even start. If anybody has some pointers, that would be great.
Happy hacking
Adam / apristel - Live in Green Bay, WI, 15yr computer tech, mostly windoze and linux.
Started phone hacking when the RAZR came out. I helped get modmymoto.com going and spent alot of time being a mod there. I also created some very popular roms aka monsterpacks for the GSM V3 RAZR, then moved to the V6 MAXX....few years later got onto the WM Scene, got a TP and eventually a TP2. I made personal roms, never shared them, but I shared tons of hacks and cabs I made. I got sick of WM and got a moment and a hero. ..now the EVO in a few days.
I'm willing to put in what I can, I know I'm not at the level of you linux pro's but I'm not scared to try anything.
Glad to see familiar names here - this should be an exciting time. Glad to share it with you fellas.
Welcome me in!
I've done a lot of themes for HTC devices throughout the years. I've owned mainly windows mobile devices, such as i930, Apache, Titan, Touch Diamond, Touch Pro, and the Touch Pro 2. I've always been flashing ROM's and helping ROM dev's with hexing things, changing some layouts here and there, registry edits and of course testing it before it went public. I also host all this stuff online for free since I HATE countdown sites for a download.
I helped with MightyROM themes and we had over 7TB of data pulled from the servers, which is pretty amazing, but I'm all Android now!
I hope to learn Android quickly and hope that some of my tools will also work with it. I have good hosting capabilities if a dev needs it, and I'm more then willing to help. I've done work for over 10+ cooks, on over 8 different devices since 2003.
Background: BSCE, Machine Language on MIPS, x86 / arm / mot / att assembly, C/++ on Posix and Win32. PIC / HC11 system design. GCC cross compiling. Have a JTAG, digital storescope, and an HP protocol analyzer. Been using Linux exclusively at home since '99.
Projects:
- Open source contributor on a few Linux projects (mainly device driver / interface development)
- Helped with the Agenda Vr3 (Snow rom)
- Hacked around with the IPAQ Linux (hardware and software)
- Helped with the Zaurus FBVnc effort
- Helped with the IOpener hack / USB problems
- Helped with the EPOD Windows CE hack / drivers
- Helped with various efforts on the Palm Pre
Future Projects:
- Root (someone will probably beat me to this)
- WebKit over HDMI (not sure where it stands on launch day)
- BT HID Keyboard (sounds like we need some back porting here)
- BT HID Mouse (virgin territory from what I have seen)
- Video recording bitrate (fun project on the side)
The EVO is my first android phone, not my first HTC though. So hopefully I can help a little bit here and there.
Hello,
I work with a small company and develop everything from boards to firmware to full-blown desktop applications for interfacing with different sensors and devices.
I've started at both ends of the computer world and am working my way towards the middle. On one hand I know my way around assembler (although I prefer C...) and write firmware for AVRs and PIC microcontrollers and on the other I'm a fluent .Net developer and have built some pretty complex .Net applications, some PHP applications, and fiddled around with the Google web toolkit.
I've reverse engineered hardware before but nothing close to the complexity of the EVO. I've never developed for Android before but I'm eager to break out the SDK and learn. I have some limited Java experience (my philosophy is once you know one managed language you know them all and I have some extensive experience with it's cousin, C#).
Very eager to start tearing into the EVO and Android system and see if I can't contribute to the effort to root and expand this device!
I've never been a huge contributor to a community effort but I hope to change that in the coming years and see if I can't contribute something back to the communities I have learned so much from!
I'll be getting my EVO June 4th
Relative rookie here in terms of mobile devices. I've put together a few custom WinMo ROMs for co-workers and myself. I've quite a few devices, but currently have the ones in my sig. I'm a professional computer geek. I write apps in C++, various .NET, PHP, etc. and work primarily with server systems (Windows, Linux, Solaris, etc.).
Looking forward to contributing to the Android world soon. Lots of great stuff here.
I know this device hasn't been officially released yet, but we do have the source code from Samsung and Froyo source code from Google. I was thinking about starting up a dev team to start cooking up ROMS for the Vibrant if you are interested send me a pm on here, and we can get things started. I'll admit I am a little rusty on my Java, but it shouldn't take me no time to learn it again.
May be jumping the shark a little. Has anyone found a consistant way to gain root?
Not yet, but on the 15th, I'll be working on it when I get the phone
Excellent start I have the nexus one as my daily but I am ordering this phone on the 15th as well.
I will also have the phone on the 15th and if any help or testing is needed Ill be more than glad to help...
Alright cool, I am reviewing my Java, and I am coming from the Droid to this phone so this should be exciting to hopefully start up a small community of people to help me with cooking up ROMs for this phone
Is knowing Java the only requriement for being able to create your own custom roms? I'm learning it now in hopes to make my own apps, but I thought you needed to know C and be well-versed in linux stuff like kernel programming to be able to make your own custom roms.
Im in for the dev team =)........Im coming from the mytouch 3g
According to what I can find on source.android.com the only examples of code that they have on there are Java base
I am game. I dont have a boat load of time, but I am going to try to get CM6 built for this phone. I want Froyo ASAP. Also I would like to get CM6 on there with some of the other goodies that the phone has such as extra video codec playback. Anyway here is a link on how to build CM that can help jump start everyone.
http://wiki.cyanogenmod.com/index.php?title=Building_from_source
Edit: Java and depending on what you are doing C. The kernels do require heavy hacking if you want to really mess with it, but in most cases all you have to do is build it and link in the proper drivers.
Note: I have never done any of this it is just what I have gathered over the time of owning my G1 since launch day.
3g,4g FFC is it important?
My G1 is now fu-bar and t-mobile is replacing it with the moto click. I don't no if that is better or worst but it has more ram. Anyway I was not sure if not having a FFC or flash is important but it seems to me that whether the vibrant will handle the 4g speeds or not is. I so what a high end phone but I can't afford to buy one every 6 months. I hope that as people get the vibrant someone will be able to take a peak inside of it to see if maybe t-mobile has the FFC in it but just covered it up with a front case that hides it. Wouldn't that be something, ya right. So I'll wait for a while to see all the real reviews on the phone. Id hate to pay all that money just to find that in a few months or even next year t-mobile completes there so called 4g and I can't take advance of it. I don't no if the hspa + or what ever its called is just a matter of software updates or not. I don't really have a question just rambling.
I too am CHOMPING at the bit to get the Vibrant.
Going from Rooted CyanoGen6RC1 G1 Dream.
I'll be in for help testing proven root access, applications, and alternative ROMs from 0-Day.
Man I can't wait to be the envy of my entire IT team.
They can take their iPhone4s and stick em up their collective MacFag asses!
hey guys I'm down to join the dev team. I haven't done much Java since college (8 yrs back) but I program in C/C++ daily on my job. I haven't done the kernel stuff but I'm more than willing to learn that and brush up on my Java as well.
I'll be getting the phone on the 15th as well.
Thanks for all the interest in this phone. For those of you planning on building CM6 for this phone, that is where I was planning on starting.
Just to let everyone know that I will mainly be doing this after 4:30 P.M. PDT, and weekends since I am active duty marine corps, and stationed out here in California. My job in the Marines requires me to know how to do some of the coding necessary for this.
I was planning on starting up an IRC channel, probably tonight, and anyone that is interested can meet up there and we can talk about things. I will make a post here, android central, and probably the cyanogen forums when I get everything started.
I'm excited to be doing this, and again thanks for all the interest.
count me in for some basic programming, I'll help where I can, but between school and work idk how much that will be. I will definitely be getting my Vibrant on the 15th, and I have built froyo from source before just to see if I could get that setup no problem.
I have experience in c++ and java, so hopefully I'll be of some use. but kernel work is definitely new to me
Im game for a IRC channel. Let me know and Ill try to Idle when I can. I would be working on it late night EST time so we might jive.
Hmmm
If anyone needs testers pm me cause I am dying to get into deving for this phone. I don't know how to code or anything, but I do know basics. Owned a G1/MT3G/Cliq and hacked the hell out of all of them. Should be ordering my Vibrant right now with UPS 3 day. But seriously, I'd love to test once everyone gets their roms cooked up
its nice that Samsung is giving us source so quickly. I'm already in love with my Vibrant. I have plenty experience with kernel compilation and complete ROM cooking from source. We need a Vanilla ROM for this beast of a phone
justanothercrowd said:
its nice that Samsung is giving us source so quickly. I'm already in love with my Vibrant. I have plenty experience with kernel compilation and complete ROM cooking from source. We need a Vanilla ROM for this beast of a phone
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nice to see you back here. Haven't seen you aroound since the Drizzy days.
Not sure if I want to root yet or not. If I do I can do testing and help with kernel, little rusty with the kernel though.
had a g1 just got my vibrant this morning.
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
Let me start by saying I'm fairly new to Android, and that this probably should go in a general Android forum, but since I'm a Fascinate user, this seems appropriate to me. I've searched, but haven't found a real explanation, and I'm not one to take things as fact without a reasonable explanation.
So it seems like everyone is waiting for an official 2.2 release for the Fascinate, flashing 2.1 ROMs but not capable of upgrading to 2.2+; but I'm wondering why we can't just compile our own OS for our phones? Android is a Linux-like OS, and I know Linux users would never stay on an old version if a newer (better?) version was available. I'm talking down-and-dirty tweak-every-option-by-hand Slackware here. Is the source available for download? If so, why can't we do something with it? Is something in the phone completely locked and unhackable? Is it the fear of having a $500 paperweight? Is it difficult to regain Verizon network connectivity?
Again, forgive the noob question, and thanks in advance for any help you can give me!
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=792986
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=883004
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=882946
There is currently work being done by jt, birdman, and the other skew of developers trying to develop a working AOSP version of 2.2/2.3. The biggest struggle that they have encountered was the RIL (Radio Interface Layer) binaries. Samsung produced some bogus complex proprietary binaries with no properly working source code. Because this phone is CDMA and not GSM, we can't simply use galaxy s files.
Anyways, the point is that there is work being done to bring it to our phone. They have a working AOSP 2.1 that is currently in alpha stage. Jt basically built his own RIL for this phone to get it working.
If this RIL works, we may end up with 2.3 sooner than later.
eulipion2 said:
Let me start by saying I'm fairly new to Android, and that this probably should go in a general Android forum, but since I'm a Fascinate user, this seems appropriate to me. I've searched, but haven't found a real explanation, and I'm not one to take things as fact without a reasonable explanation.
So it seems like everyone is waiting for an official 2.2 release for the Fascinate, flashing 2.1 ROMs but not capable of upgrading to 2.2+; but I'm wondering why we can't just compile our own OS for our phones? Android is a Linux-like OS, and I know Linux users would never stay on an old version if a newer (better?) version was available. I'm talking down-and-dirty tweak-every-option-by-hand Slackware here. Is the source available for download? If so, why can't we do something with it? Is something in the phone completely locked and unhackable? Is it the fear of having a $500 paperweight? Is it difficult to regain Verizon network connectivity?
Again, forgive the noob question, and thanks in advance for any help you can give me!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You obviously have not searched hard enough, as this has been discussed in many places. I would suggest you start by searching this forum (edit: or seeing the links and posts above).
I will say, however, that recent achievements by (edit: the developers mentioned above) have made your suggestion quite possible. If you want to get a taste of what is to come, see the aosp alpha sticky located in the development section. The rom still has bugs, but it is a giant step forward for the Fascinate.
Sent from my Galaxy-S Fascinate
Florynce said:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=792986
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=883004
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=882946
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
^^^^^
10char
I must add/point out that the work these guys are doing could easily pave the way for Cyanogenmod- and other well-featured roms to be compiled/ported and used on Fascinate as well.
I've read the above links, but they didn't really quite answer my question. I guess I'm wondering why a Linux-based OS isn't acting/being treated like a Linux-based OS.
Let's say I go out and buy a new computer today. I want to put Linux on it. I get the machine home, download my distro of choice and make an install cd. As I'm installing, I configure the installation either for my specific hardware or I can use a generic profile if my hardware isn't listed.
Now say a new version of the Linux kernel comes out. I can upgrade without having to wait for a version for my hardware. Or if I install MyDistro v1 when I get my machine, and MyDistro v2 comes out the next day, I don't have to wait for someone to develop a version to work with my hardware.
So my question is more of a why can't we upgrade our distro like other Linux variants? Is it because there's no generic replacement for the Samsung RIL? If I were to download the source and do a generic build, or even a specific one, I wouldn't be able to install it because...?
Sorry to be a pain, but I genuinely have no clue. Again, thank you for the insight!
2.2 will boot on the I500 just nothing works. If you would like to help http://opensource.samsung.com/
The source code can be found there. Please feel free to help the development along.
I suggest you read through the reply's to your question and pay special note to those bringing up the RIL as that seems to be the biggest hurdle right now.
I think maybe the answer you are looking for is that it is possible to do it, it's just extremely difficult because Samsung's open source is very shoddy and isn't based on AOS, which is what is used for most other phones.
Since the developers don't have a build that works, they have to work from the ground up with AOS and get every last feature on the fascinate working without using Samsung's code (TouchWiz, widgets, etc).
The links they gave you explain most of it but you have to sift through the posts. There is a dev named jt (amongst others) who is working on a ROM that is upgradable based on AOSP and it looks very promising.
edit: It's also worth noting that when I say "not based on AOS" I mean that it is proprietary software used by Samsung-only phones and is not coded by Google. It still, of course, is based on Android OS. It would be akin to a ROM coded by Samsung for their phones rather than generic ROMs that could be downloaded by other phones.
Perfect, thanks!
Try thinking of it as buying an Ubuntu laptop from dell. Sure its " Ubuntu" but not stock. It so full of bloat and badly written drivers that aren't supplied openly for the user that it would be hell trying get the latest version of ubuntu to run on it.
Sent from my SCH-I500 using XDA App
For clarification.... so I can wrap my brain around this. Is this situation kinda like having bought a new computer that's running an os, but has no installed device drivers and nowhere to download them from, so they have to be written by hand?
Edit: that last post came thru while I was writing this one, I think it basically answers my question...
So what the devs on here are trying to do is develop a "generic" profile that can work on our phone (as well as others?), creating a solid base to allow users to upgrade and change at-will without having to wait for official releases?
See, that's the part I'm having a hard time with. No generic profile built into the OS to use in the absence of a hardware specific one?
LoverBoyV said:
Try thinking of it as buying an Ubuntu laptop from dell. Sure its " Ubuntu" but not stock. It so full of bloat and badly written drivers that aren't supplied openly for the user that it would be hell trying get the latest version of ubuntu to run on it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
On a sidenote, I bought a Dell netbook witih Ubuntu. Didn't waste time with Ubuntu, but I chose it because I didn't want MS to get money from a license fee. Installed Mac OS X on it the day it arrived
Ya know, I tried to do the same thing with my inspiron 1525 notebook, with snow leopard 10.6.3 since I have a spare hard drive. Spent a whole day with numerous guides, trying this n that. Got it to actually boot to the desktop once, bit as I was putting the drivers in, it went into KP and from that point on, I could never even reinstall back to the desktop again.
Well, Samsung is giving us a simple/reliable update to Froyo with unique functionality, as soon as possible.
Source: (Twitter, About 12pm 1/2/2011 from Samsungtweets via Cotweet - http://twitter.com/Samsungtweets/samsung-usa )
Samsungtweets We are working to make the Android 2.2/Froyo upgrade available to all U.S Galaxy S owners as soon as possible.
Samsungtweets We want Galaxy S owners to have simple/reliable upgrade. We r running tests due to complexity/unique functionality
EDIT: gave more specific time and source of tweets. Post is meant to be objective, without definition of ASAP for this context.
Swyped w/ XDA App. When in doubt, mumble.
soba49 said:
Well, Samsung is giving us a simple/reliable update to Froyo with unique functionality, as soon as possible.
Source (Twitter, 6 hours ago):
Samsungtweets We are working to make the Android 2.2/Froyo upgrade available to all U.S Galaxy S owners as soon as possible.
Samsungtweets We want Galaxy S owners to have simple/reliable upgrade. We r running tests due to complexity/unique functionality
Swyped w/ XDA App. When in doubt, mumble.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm not sure if this is meant to be funny or not haha. Are those recent tweets?
Sent from my SCH-I500 using XDA App
They seem to post the same things over and over, of course this is also because people constantly ask when is froyo coming, and every time they say there is no definite date. It is coming soon that that is all they will say; yelling, moaning and crying isn't gonna make it come any sooner, just sit back and it will eventually come.