Hey guys.
There's a new competitor in town. SE is definitely looking to gain some market share with the Idou scheduled launch Q2 '09. some specs listed are :
Sony Ericsson Idou
GSM 850 / 900 / 1800 / 1900
HSDPA 900 / 2100
Coming soon. Exp. release 2009, Q3
TFT touchscreen, 16M colors
360 x 640 pixels, 3.5 inches
Wi-Fi 802.11 b/g, DLNA
Symbian OS
12.1 MP, 4256 x 2832 pixels, autofocus, xenon flash, video, video LED flash, secondary VGA videocall camera
- Built-in GPS
- aGPS function
- Camera images geo-tagging, face and smile detection
- Google maps
- FM radio with RDS
- MP3/AAC/MPEG4 player
- Organiser
- Built-in handsfree
- Voice memo/dial
- Java MIDP 2.0
Some links:
Engadget
Phonedog
Some other video
What are your thoughts on this new model.
The SE Idou has a smaller screen, lower resolution, not WinMo, no North American 3G (Telstra model has 850).
The only positive that jumps out is the camera, but that's not enough to overcome the above negatives for me. Sorry, not interested.
I bet the Idou-NOT camera will still be shooting 3gp video in 320*240 resolution
My 3 and a half year old Universal has a bigger, higher resolution screen than the Idou. If that's progress I'm not impressed.
That phone was epic back in the day! Still has some decent specs now!
really cant stand all those nonstandard resolution.
heck, enough's enough already with vga wvga q and square stuff!
crashDebug said:
really cant stand all those nonstandard resolution.
heck, enough's enough already with vga wvga q and square stuff!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well get used to it - it's the same resolution that all the new touchscreen Symbian handsets are coming out with such as the Nokia 5800 and the Samsung OmniaHD.
The reason they've gone for it is that it's a 16:9 aspect ratio.
There's no point trying to compare the Touch HD to the Idou as one of those handsets isn't even available yet.
In fact, going on SE's recent form, I'd be very surprised if they get it into shops this year. And I'd even go so far as to say that someone like Samsung or LG will have released a different 12mp handset before Idou is available.
Also, why on earth does anyone think that 12mp on a phone is going to be a good thing?
Think about how poor the camera on the HD can be, do you really think cramming in an extra 7 million pixels will make things better?
Too low res for me - 800*480 is simply a sweet spot, it's the major thing HTC got right.
I bet the 12mp camera takes shockingly bad pictures too. That's more than almost all aps-c DSLRs out there (and the few that tried 14/15mpixel didn't sell, because they took worse pictures than the 10/11 models).
Idou would be a good phone. If this (or N97) is out now, I would not have bought the HD. Don't get me wrong. I am very satisfied with HD (with all the tweaks and cooked roms). Coming from a S60 N95/82 and after using HD for the last 3 months I have to honestly say somehow WM is still not as good an OS compared to Symbian. Symbian is still more robust, nimble and more efficient.
not impressed with it's spec's compared to some of the 2009 htc devices on the horizen...like the Firestone, etc.
I don't know for sure, but normally cameras with these resolution ain't better than any 5 MP camera. Its not the resolution that limits the capacities, but its the lens.
mib1800 said:
Coming from a S60 N95/82 and after using HD for the last 3 months I have to honestly say somehow WM is still not as good an OS compared to Symbian. Symbian is still more robust, nimble and more efficient.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Everyone has their own preferences.
Until the Nokia 5800 was released, I'd never used a Symbian phone that I liked. I just don't feel the way the menus are laid out works all that well.
johnpatcher said:
I don't know for sure, but normally cameras with these resolution ain't better than any 5 MP camera. Its not the resolution that limits the capacities, but its the lens.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's both.
Yes the lens makes a big difference but so do the number of pixels.
By cramming more pixels onto the same size of sensor, each pixel is smaller and consequently less light hits it.
Because less light hits it, the picture will appear duller unless you increase the amplification of the signal from each pixel. But if you do that, you also increase the amount of noise, which is detrimental to the picture quality.
Even with premium components it's impossible to amplify a signal without having noise appear but there's no way that a phone is going to be fitted with premium components, so the noise will be much worse than it would be on a digital camera of the same quality, not to mention that proper digital cameras would also tend to have a physically larger sensor anyway, so they wouldn't have to crank the amplification up so much.
Even the C905 (which is, according to GSMArena the best 8mp camera-phone on the market from a camera perspective) already has serious issues with noise and, at best, Idou will have a sensor of the same physical size but with more pixels.
However I've already read rumours that the sensor will, in fact, be smaller than the C905's which will make it all even worse.
Step666 said:
It's both.
Yes the lens makes a big difference but so do the number of pixels.
By cramming more pixels onto the same size of sensor, each pixel is smaller and consequently less light hits it.
Because less light hits it, the picture will appear duller unless you increase the amplification of the signal from each pixel. But if you do that, you also increase the amount of noise, which is detrimental to the picture quality.
Even with premium components it's impossible to amplify a signal without having noise appear but there's no way that a phone is going to be fitted with premium components, so the noise will be much worse than it would be on a digital camera of the same quality, not to mention that proper digital cameras would also tend to have a physically larger sensor anyway, so they wouldn't have to crank the amplification up so much.
Even the C905 (which is, according to GSMArena the best 8mp camera-phone on the market from a camera perspective) already has serious issues with noise and, at best, Idou will have a sensor of the same physical size but with more pixels.
However I've already read rumours that the sensor will, in fact, be smaller than the C905's which will make it all even worse.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree with everything you said, and being a photographer I'm very familiar with issues you described.
However, Sony is leading the market in compact digital cameras, and as such, it would not surprise me that these 12 megapixels turn out to produce "decent quality" photos.
Decent for average Joe Snapshooter, of course. Because, although for last 5 or so years I have been listening to "OMG, they're putting EVEN more pixels onto that tiny sensor", somehow the manufacturers are still running the megapixel race, and image quality has had a small but steady quality improvement. First time I heard this sentence was when first big megapixel jump happened: from 1 megapixel to 2.
So, let's just wait and see before bashing the new Sony, at least camera-wise.
I'm not waiting, I hold out zero hope for Idou or any other 12mp handset.
I've seen both 100% crops and A3 printouts from the C905 and as I said before, noise is a huge problem.
I just don't see how adding extra pixels is going to do anything but make matters worse.
Also, since when have Sony been leading the market for compact cameras?
I must admit I'm not as au fait with everything since the pixel numbers went through the roof but last time I checked, Nikon and Canon were sharing the spoils.
Rozenthal said:
Decent for average Joe Snapshooter, of course. Because, although for last 5 or so years I have been listening to "OMG, they're putting EVEN more pixels onto that tiny sensor", somehow the manufacturers are still running the megapixel race, and image quality has had a small but steady quality improvement.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There have been tests recently that showed the best compact ever made was the Fuji f30, a 4 year old 6 megapixel model (people pay a ton of money for them on ebay). Even with improvements in tech since, they've not been able to counteract the quality decrease that cramming more megapixels in causes. Fuji themselves tried to reign back the megapixel race, hold at 8 max for quality reasons, but marketing trumps all and they've had to give it up.
I had a 15mpixel Canon pocket camera recently, the quality was awful.
arfster said:
There have been tests recently that showed the best compact ever made was the Fuji f30, a 4 year old 6 megapixel model (people pay a ton of money for them on ebay).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't suppose you have a link?
I tried my fair share of Fuji cameras in the past and was never hugely impressed by them, so I'm a little surprised at that.
Also, for them to try and position themselves as the voice of reason in the megapixel war is rather hypocritical since they were the manufacturer who traditionally always aimed for more, staying on with interpolation long after most other manufacturers had given up on it.
Related
I tried every possible situation to get the camera to act like a 5MP one but not even close.
I am happy with my HD actually but the fact that it has the 5MP camera made me buy it a week ago rather than getting the TOUCH PRO 2.
Looking at the pictures with 5MP set on, they are 2592x1552 with superfine quality which even does not make 5MP (4 maybe). Pictures with N95 were way better. Is it that hard to implement a good 5Mp camera with such a great device? Was the aim for all the stories about that 5MP camera only commercial ? I feel bad now as deciding which device to buy based on specs became really hard.
I'm a bit disappointent with the camera as well, but:
- Set 'widescreen' to off. Then you get actual 5MP pictures.
- The camera quality in the new custom roms (I use Dutty's 2.1) is slightly better.
Hope it helps
Have a look here Best Camera Settings
Well, most of us are happy to have a great phone with a 5MP camera and not vice versa!
heliosdev said:
Have a look here Best Camera Settings
Well, most of us are happy to have a great phone with a 5MP camera and not vice versa!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for the link. I have been reading also that the camera quality is almost as good as other 3.2MP HTCs devices which is really disappointing.
On such a small sensor, more megapixels makes the picture worse.
It's the same reason why the best pocket cameras are three year old 6 megapixel models. The new ones are 15megapixel, and are way worse.
arfster said:
On such a small sensor, more megapixels makes the picture worse.
It's the same reason why the best pocket cameras are three year old 6 megapixel models. The new ones are 15megapixel, and are way worse.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think you are right, maybe we should ignore the fact that cameras of HTC devices with more Mpix are better and focus on other specs like Screen/integrated Keyboard/processor/RAM/ROM.
I understand now why PRO 2 has a 3.2MP camera.
I totally agree with op but also the reasoning responses.
they marketed it as a 5 megapixel and its way below par with everything.
the phone is awesome and I wouldn't trade it with anything right now.
however I would totally sympathise with anyone who uses the camera as a deciding factor upon purchasing.
The camera is not a deciding factor but when you choose between 2 devices with same specs, one with 3.2MP and one with 5MP, you should know that you did not get anything as a plus. You only payed more.
It's only going to get sillier. New models are coming out with 8mp and 12mp, and the pictures they take are awful.
Jeez, even aps-c DSLRs from all manufacturers max out at 10/11mp, because it's counterproductive to have more (and they have sensors 245645363456546x bigger than a mobile).
So in other words, the 3.2MP of new HTC devices camera is better than the 5MP on the HD ?
The quality of the picture quality of the HD is heaps better than the pictures taken from the n95, it's just the shutter is much slower in low light on the HD, that's its weak point.
It will be a matter of time when a firmware upgrade is provided to increase the shutter.
Xeon said:
So in other words, the 3.2MP of new HTC devices camera is better than the 5MP on the HD ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
At this sensor size, and with the same lens, 3.2mp will produce better pictures than 5mp.
Xeon said:
So in other words, the 3.2MP of new HTC devices camera is better than the 5MP on the HD ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
3.2MP on OLD HTC device is better than the HD in terms of usability, quality is still very very good in ideal conditions.
I find the photos pretty OK in daylight. It is an average 5MP just a little worse than the N95. Just use the default settings.
I had a N95 also. Like you said, the quality of the pictures is not as good as a 2 years 5MP device. That is what i am not getting.
Man I hate reading thread like this, the fact that you think 5MP determines picture quality suggests that perhaps you buy anything before thoroughly investigating!
N95, HD, both pic quality is still very poor compared to an actual dedicated SLR or Digital camera.
Megapixels are just "dots" 1 megapixel = 1 million dots etc, therefore yes the HD can take a 5 megapixel photo, however, "megapixels" do not necassarily determine picture quality, all sorts of factors make up picture quality, such as: human knowledge and experience, lighting, the quality of the lens and sensor combination, the size of the photodiode(s), the quality of the camera components, the level of sophistication of the imaging processing software, the image file format used to store it, etc. Different sensor and camera designs make different compromises. I have n95 too and find the quality between the two similar, crap! compared to my Nikon 6mp digital camera.
Simply you dont "get it" because perhaps you dont put enough thought or research into things. Im not having a go at you, I just would assume that after 2yrs with a piece of crap N95 you'd know better.
homer285 said:
Man I hate reading thread like this, the fact that you think 5MP determines picture quality suggests that perhaps you buy anything before thoroughly investigating!
N95, HD, both pic quality is still very poor compared to an actual dedicated SLR or Digital camera.
Megapixels are just "dots" 1 megapixel = 1 million dots etc, therefore yes the HD can take a 5 megapixel photo, however, "megapixels" do not necassarily determine picture quality, all sorts of factors make up picture quality, such as: human knowledge and experience, lighting, the quality of the lens and sensor combination, the size of the photodiode(s), the quality of the camera components, the level of sophistication of the imaging processing software, the image file format used to store it, etc. Different sensor and camera designs make different compromises. I have n95 too and find the quality between the two similar, crap! compared to my Nikon 6mp digital camera.
Simply you dont "get it" because perhaps you dont put enough thought or research into things. Im not having a go at you, I just would assume that after 2yrs with a piece of crap N95 you'd know better.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And maybe you can explain for me why they are going through higher MPixels with newer phones if the picture quality will still suck ? This is my point of the whole thread. Dont you think it is just a commercial thing to get people interested in buying higher specs devices ?
Also check out this thread.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=491592&highlight=brightness+camera
Xeon said:
And maybe you can explain for me why they are going through higher MPixels with newer phones if the picture quality will still suck ? This is my point of the whole thread. Dont you think it is just a commercial thing to get people interested in buying higher specs devices ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Of course. That's been obvious for years now, same with mainstream cameras (except the dslr market, where image quality actually matters).
Xeon said:
And maybe you can explain for me why they are going through higher MPixels with newer phones if the picture quality will still suck ? This is my point of the whole thread. Dont you think it is just a commercial thing to get people interested in buying higher specs devices ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Higher Megapixels DO NOT determine picture quality it is merely and simply resolution, even on a high quality digital camera MP has less value than a good quality lens.
I love my Nexus One, but like everything, as time goes by and new things come along, there are things I wish were different.
If you had 'three wishes' and could change only three things about the N1, what would it be?
Here's my list
1. By far my first wish would be for more application flash memory. Even with App2SD, there is just not enough space for all the apps I want to install. I'd love to see a minimum of 4GB of app memory.
2. Front Camera. Now that real video conferencing apps and reasonably fast 3G is available, this is a big deal.
3. Screen. We all know how terrible the touch screen is. I get real tired of locking and unlocking to 'reset' the digitizer once it's lost it's mind. While we're replacing the screen, going up to a 4" SuperAMOLED at a little higher res wouldn't hurt. Maybe 960x512 ?
Things I wouldn't change
- The dual, noise canceling mics. This works great.
- The titanium alloy case. Light, sturdy, cool.
- AMOLED. I'll never go back to LCD.
- multiple radio bands. Take it anywhere.
- Bare Android. Keep your UI's and overlays.
***Update***
Now that I've been playing with Darktremor's a2sd script on CM6.1.1, I have to revise my list. Google should really release a code update that allows users to (optionally) do just what DarkTremor's a2sd app does. Truly move the apps and Dalvik cache to the SD card. This really does remove the app memory limitation on the Nexus One. In fact I now have 145 apps installed totaling 256MB !
Note that this does require partitioning your SD card and creating an ext(2/3/4) partition and the whole process is not noob friendly, but if you take your time and do a little research first it's WELL WORTH IT!!
This will make you love your Nexus One again.
Now, about my list.
My new wish to replace the app memory item is:
- USB host mode and additional microUSB host port.
How cool would it be to be able to hook up keyboards, mice, external HD's, even monitors? We already know it can be done, but it would have been nice from the factory.
Actually, I wouldn't care about app space too much, since proper old-fashioned Apps2EXT allows installing as much as I can possibly imagine.
I also wouldn't change the screen size. Absolutely no need to go any larger. And that includes resolution - the only visible resolution artifacts are the result of PenTile AMOLED, and not lack of resolution. No need to make the GPU work much harder.
Things I would change:
1) Digitizer (touchscreen), for obvious reasons.
2) CPU - rebase on 7x30, to get the same CPU with twice faster GPU.
3) Better photo camera.
1. More geebees! Seriously, 4-8GB internal memory should be sufficient until Unreal Engine and id games get ported.
2. Dual-core NVIDIA Tegra 2 processor. Need I say more?
3. Hardware keyboard! I've had my N1 for over 6 months now and still can't get used to virtual keyboards. Swype is nice, but it's not multi-lingual.
Bonus round: Screen size bump to 4 inches would be nice. I find that the optimal size. At the very least an upgrade to a Super AMOLED.
In no particular order:
Better digitizer
More memory
Better speakerphone
Better screen - a cross between the retina display and a super amoled would do me, and with much improved touch screen performance.
Better gpu, coming from a galaxy s that is one thing I miss.
Better camera.
Alreet headphone socket which is actually flush. I really don't want to be buying headphones again to find the phone goes mental when I plug them in (apparently some headphones don't fit in the none flush jack and so the phone gets confused as to whether it's headphones or a headset). Found this out the hard way recently.
More internal app memory, though this isn't such a big deal any more.
3 wishes? i would pay for this...
1. new and BIGGER SCREEN. my eyes are hurting after using a hd2 (thats why im still on the hd2..) atleast 4" would be nice.. but i dont want to leave the 4.3"
2. QSD8x72.
3. erm.. hard to say, the two wishes there are everything i really want.. but probably we need a bit a better battery when if we had QSD8x72
best things on this device are obvious:
- like OP said, the second mic for noise canceling is awsome
- AMOLED is cool, even if the screen is too small
- THE ****IN TRACKBALL, GODDAMN I LOVE IT
- the whole design of the device is awsome
EDIT: oooh i forgot.. 3.5 audio jack on the bottom plz.. at the top just sucks. and get the power key to the other side where the jack now is...
I still have trouble with my wifi connection temporarily dropping after I wake the phone, but I am not sure if that is a hardware or software issue.
I wouldn't mind a line-out jack for audio. Even better would be an HDMI out jack for video capability.
The antenna could be redesigned so the signal wouldn't be affected by hand placement. It's not as bad as some but it could be better.
Overall, though, in terms of design and performance the N1 still rocks for being 11 months old. That is normally eons in terms of the product cycle in this market. I'm so glad I bought two for my wife and I.
-More memory
-Better speakers
-Best digitizer
-SD card slot on outside
My list...
4.3" SAMOLED2 display
Tegra 2 Dual-Core CPU/GPU
Front facing camera
HDMI Out
Printing support (wifi/network)
Desktop Chrome browser....will also need a faster CPU.
1. better speaker
2. Better battery life without changing the size
3. Maybe better camera. Like 12Mp so it can record 1080p.
Sent from my Nexus One using XDA App
x986123 said:
My list...
4.3" SAMOLED2 display
Tegra 2 Dual-Core CPU/GPU
Front facing camera
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Niceee
10chars
Battery life
Better power button. I'm on my second and it too is buggy.
Better external speaker.
Better digitizer is a. Close 4th.
Digitizer. It felt really disappointing to learn that the sensor could only handle two inputs, and crappily at that. I wish it had shipped with one that didn't spaz out whenever the battery was charging.
Camera Button. I'm not a huge photogeek but this would have been a slick feature. Tapping the screen always shakes the camera noticably, and my photos come out blurred. I think a camera button could have limited that.
Front Facing Camera. I think this really would have helped to future-proof the N1; now, if (hopefully when) a video chat protocol is standardized for the Android platform, I'll have to upgrade if I want to be able to utilize it.
I also still have conflict with the capacitive buttons. I like them because they're sleek and sit flush with the screen. However, I dislike them because they don't work when the phone is locked (in case I want to remap the buttons to, say, skip songs).
1. better digitizer (touchscreen)
2. hdmi out
i think the intention of this post was more towards what you would change and not what phone would you rather buy today.. super amoled and tegra are new technologies and weren't available when the nexus was created
what others have been saying:
ffc: i can live without a front facing cam because i can still video call people, the only reason i would ever use video is to show someone something not just so that i can talk face to face
gpu: it's not that bad, it's not the best but it is almost a year old now
camera: decent enough, do you really need 1080p?
battery: that's not really much to do with the phone, all batteries suck
This is tough, I had to cross a few things out:
1) 4" screen without all the current problems
(love the size and weight, but a tiny bit more screen would be nice. and we all know the other problems)
2) Better battery life
(currently have to charge it 2-3 times a day)
3) Better voice recognition
(I'm from Texas but VR hardly understands me. And the more I repeat a phrase, the more it misunderstands the words.)
Cool
I'm impressed, There are actually a lot of good ideas here.
I'm already cobbling them together into my "perfect phone" list.
So far it looks like:
- Vanilla Android 2.2.1+
- Unlocked
- Multiple Radio bands (like the N1)
- Minimum of HSDPA support, HSDPA+ or LTE pref.
- Minimum of 4GB app storage
- MicroSD slot that's accessible without removing battery.
- Front camera
- 5 MP rear camera (I don't care what anyone says, any more than 5MP in a camera with an aperture that small is a bad idea and only done for marketing reasons. It's all about light gathering, not resolution. Think the opposite of DPI as it's used in screens and printers. The lower the camera pixels per inch, the better)
- 720p video at 30fps
- SuperAMOLED screen. LCD is the past, forget it.
- dual core CPU with GFX acceleration
- HDMI output
- FM radio
- Micro USB with host mode option.
Note that these are in addition to all the standard Nexus One features like a titanium allow case, dual microphones, etc.
Megapixel Myth
william tanaya said:
1. better speaker
2. Better battery life without changing the size
3. Maybe better camera. Like 12Mp so it can record 1080p.
Sent from my Nexus One using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Regarding #3, you've fallen into the megapixel myth. Megapixels don't mean much of anything for most consumer devices. Sure, if you are a pro photographer taking pictures for magazines or billboards, then yes. maybe you need a high MP camera. For everyone else, it's nonsense.
For example, you wished for 12MP to handle 1080p video. but the fact is that full HD, 1920x1080 is only 2MP!
On a cell phone with a tiny camera chip, the less MP, the better. Why? Because this means that each pixel element is larger and therefore can capture more light. This results in better saturation, faster ISO ratings, and better low light capability.
Anything over 5MP in a cell phone is a waste and counter-productive.
Personally I also think 8MP is the limit of diminishing returns on consumer digital cameras, and 12MP for DSLRs.
If you follow digital camera news, you'll find that the biggest push is to put larger image sensors in cameras.
unibody titanium case
unbreakable screen
waterproof to 100m
fold out knife and bottle opener
Tachyon_1 said:
Regarding #3, you've fallen into the megapixel myth. Megapixels don't mean much of anything for most consumer devices. Sure, if you are a pro photographer taking pictures for magazines or billboards, then yes. maybe you need a high MP camera. For everyone else, it's nonsense.
For example, you wished for 12MP to handle 1080p video. but the fact is that full HD, 1920x1080 is only 2MP!
On a cell phone with a tiny camera chip, the less MP, the better. Why? Because this means that each pixel element is larger and therefore can capture more light. This results in better saturation, faster ISO ratings, and better low light capability.
Anything over 5MP in a cell phone is a waste and counter-productive.
Personally I also think 8MP is the limit of diminishing returns on consumer digital cameras, and 12MP for DSLRs.
If you follow digital camera news, you'll find that the biggest push is to put larger image sensors in cameras.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
nice to know that, sounds logic..
ty..^^
Ok as we know current crop of Smartphone camera's are pretty good, still not as good as a decent point & shoot, but the gap is getting smaller.
What we need to totally replace point & shoot's in the future is better optics & sensors.
The sensor in current smartphones is basically tiny, in the future they need to find way to fit a bigger sensor's & improve the optics while keep the phone slim at the same time.
Sony seem to be leading the way on sensor technology atm, as alot of camera and smartphone makers are using these, and i've no doubt the sensor tech will get even better in the future.
Nokia seem to be on the right track with the 808, using a big sensor and adding 41mp to use as a zoom so basically to zoom into a picture you just crop, not as effective as an optical zoom, but zillion times better than using digital zoom, plus when then 808 is using just 12mp it better than any current smartphone out picture quality wise, also they are planning on using that same sensor in some of it's Lumia range of phones proberly sometime next year which would be intresting to see if they can keep the phone slim aswell.
Another problem seem to be with megapixels, luckily Samsung have been smart this year and kept it to 8mp instead of ramping it upto 12mp like most of thought they would, because this would have actually made the camera worst "noise wise" than what it currently is now, basically because the Backlit Sensor they using in the Galaxy S3 isn't that much better than what was used in the Galaxy S2 which didn't have one, so making it 12mp would have proberly been a disaster.
Soon we have the iphone 5 on the market & i reckon this will proberly have a better camera than the current crop of top end smartphone's, as Apple did a pretty good job with the camera on the iphone 4S.
So rather than ramble on, what would you like to see camera tech wise on your smartphone?
ixon2001 said:
Ok as we know current crop of Smartphone camera's are pretty good, still not as good as a decent point & shoot, but the gap is getting smaller.
What we need to totally replace point & shoot's in the future is better optics & sensors.
The sensor in current smartphones is basically tiny, in the future they need to find way to fit a bigger sensor's & improve the optics while keep the phone slim at the same time.
Sony seem to be leading the way on sensor technology atm, as alot of camera and smartphone makers are using these, and i've no doubt the sensor tech will get even better in the future.
Nokia seem to be on the right track with the 808, using a big sensor and adding 41mp to use as a zoom so basically to zoom into a picture you just crop, not as effective as an optical zoom, but zillion times better than using digital zoom, plus when then 808 is using just 12mp it better than any current smartphone out picture quality wise, also they are planning on using that same sensor in some of it's Lumia range of phones proberly sometime next year which would be intresting to see if they can keep the phone slim aswell.
Another problem seem to be with megapixels, luckily Samsung have been smart this year and kept it to 8mp instead of ramping it upto 12mp like most of thought they would, because this would have actually made the camera worst "noise wise" than what it currently is now, basically because the Backlit Sensor they using in the Galaxy S3 isn't that much better than what was used in the Galaxy S2 which didn't have one, so making it 12mp would have proberly been a disaster.
Soon we have the iphone 5 on the market & i reckon this will proberly have a better camera than the current crop of top end smartphone's, as Apple did a pretty good job with the camera on the iphone 4S.
So rather than ramble on, what would you like to see camera tech wise on your smartphone?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
quite a few good points you have mentioned, you definitely know a bit about photograph since you mentioned the density of pixels on sensors...In my opinion, 8MP is enough for the average creative shot, snapshot, instragam, Facebook...furthermore, Im pretty adamint that the SGS3 camera is slightly better than my Fujifilm JV200...haha...but then again, the quality and noise level is quite similar to my SGS2...I honestly believe that as far as sensors this size, the limitations are achieved...the rest is up to effective post processing or basically increasing size of sensor/lens such as the Nokia 808...while the iPhone5 looks to be a 12MP, I doubt there will be radical advantages over the SGS3...as it surely wont be overwhelming as the Nokia 808...if you're real keen for a good shoot...take my Nikon dSLR.
camera's what?
tshoulihane said:
camera's what?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
punctuation police alert
http://www.wpcentral.com/wpcentral-nokia-microsoft-live-blog-new-york-city
Nokia 920 has an LCD screen. Not good.
Wireless charging seems cool though.
Anyone else watching?
Really? LCD screen not good? 1280 x 760 resolution on a 4.5" display (which is more dense than the majority of 1280 displays which are 4.7"+), ClearBlack technology (which should mean deep blacks for an LCD, like the One X, possibly even getting deeper than that display), and according to wpcentral the fastest display on a smartphone (which I imagine means fastest response time).
The Janitor Mop said:
Really? LCD screen not good? 1280 x 760 resolution on a 4.5" display (which is more dense than the majority of 1280 displays which are 4.7"+), ClearBlack technology (which should mean deep blacks for an LCD, like the One X, possibly even getting deeper than that display), and according to wpcentral the fastest display on a smartphone (which I imagine means fastest response time).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah I'm kind of disapointed with the camera sensor as I was expecting a higher or equal resolution to the Nokia N8 (12MP) it's just under 9MP. But it's improved camera tech is supposed to make you forget about this.
Sure it records 1080 P video @ 30 FPS but doesn't give you micro sd expansion slot and only 32 gb internal I can fill 32 gb easily with my N8 and that records 720p
Tech details don't seem to be as abundant as with the N8. I can plug any external drive into that and expand the capacity further.
Plus they kind of killed the hype recently by not providing an actual representation of what the camera can do.
djfuego said:
Yeah I'm kind of disapointed with the camera sensor as I was expecting a higher or equal resolution to the Nokia N8 (12MP) it's just under 9MP. But it's improved camera tech is supposed to make you forget about this.
Sure it records 1080 P video @ 30 FPS but doesn't give you micro sd expansion slot and only 32 gb internal I can fill 32 gb easily with my N8 and that records 720p
Tech details don't seem to be as abundant as with the N8. I can plug any external drive into that and expand the capacity further.
Plus they kind of killed the hype recently by not providing an actual representation of what the camera can do.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I do photography as a hobby. I've owned 2 DSLRs and a bunch of other sorts of cameras (point and shoot mainly) and I'd like to say one thing: Megapixels DO NOT determine photo quality. the LENS and IMAGE PROCESSOR do that.
Lets look at an analogy
Let's say you're trying to paint a picture of a natural scenery. You need 1: A good eye that will take in details of the landscape. You need the eye that will be able to contrasts between colors, and pick up all the information such as the leaves, trees, water, etc. etc. If someone has glaucoma, cloudy vision, or is simply blind, they won't be able to take in the scenery. You will also need 2: A good and dexterous hand that will convert what you're seeing into a painting by making skillful brushes of the paintbrush. If you have crappy coordination skills or are unable to correctly translate what you're seeing into proper shapes and curves, you're going to have a crappy picture at the end.
your LENS=eye and the image processor=Hand/Coordination.
Those are the two things that will determine the quality of the picture. Megapixels just determine the size of your canvas. A 3.2 MP camera can deliver better shots than a 12 MP camera!
The 920 is using Carl Zeiss F/2.0 lens and I'm not sure about what image processor it has. As for the lens (you have the N8 so you can attest to this), you will know that CZ makes excellent quality lenses made of pure glass. 90% of lenses I've used in microscopy labs were all CZ. Whats gonna make or break the picture quality is the image processor. I'm not sure which one they're using.
Wait for some test shots to come out, but I have high expectations for Nokia on this phone.
I've already gone into detail on the 920 camera in other threads, but the image sensor size is in fact 1/3", which is larger than the 1/3.2" sensor the iPhone 4S, One X, and Galaxy s3 have. Along with backside illumination and mechanical stabilization, it really is a great smartphone camera and I wouldn't have expected any better for a late 2012 smartphone.
https://plus.google.com/photos/+DuanDao/albums/6070583356055960369
raazman said:
https://plus.google.com/photos/+DuanDao/albums/6070583356055960369
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They don't look very impressive to say the least... Pictures were taken in Irvine CA. I wonder who has access to a Nexus 6 this early down there?
How do we know these pictures were taken with a Nexus 6?
As far as the pictures go, they are very hit or miss. There are a few decent ones, but the majority of them don't look very good.
msal said:
How do we know these pictures were taken with a Nexus 6?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I guess it could be faked but:
Camera shamu
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In photo details.
This is quite disappointing, Nexus cameras aren't known to be amazing but for $649 I'd surely expect more than this.
Click on the posters image. He had the nexus 5 test device.
The colors look oversaturated, which I guess is typical for cell phones (except a handful of the older flagship Nokia phone cameras).
Anyway, preproduction devices often do not have fully calibrated cameras, so I wouldn't put too much stock in how these images look. This person is also clearly not a professional photographer. I don't think any meaningful judgments can be made until reviews come out from some of the better sites for photography in phones.
msal said:
How do we know these pictures were taken with a Nexus 6?
As far as the pictures go, they are very hit or miss. There are a few decent ones, but the majority of them don't look very good.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The good ones were sadly made w/ an iPhone.
Underwhelmed to say the least.
650+ Should buy a high end everything, especially camera. They could of at least out sourced the camera for that price.
ericerk said:
The good ones were sadly made w/ an iPhone.
Underwhelmed to say the least.
650+ Should buy a high end everything, especially camera. They could of at least out sourced the camera for that price.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How can you tell it's from an iPhone?
msal said:
How can you tell it's from an iPhone?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Photo details button. It's on the right of the picture.
ericerk said:
The good ones were sadly made w/ an iPhone.
Underwhelmed to say the least.
650+ Should buy a high end everything, especially camera. They could of at least out sourced the camera for that price.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't understand what you're talking about. Motorola doesn't make camera sensors. Neither does Google. Just about every phone manufacturer outsources the camera and there are only a handful of companies that actually make camera sensors for phones. The Nexus 6 has a Sony IMX214 Exmor RS sensor. The Sony sensors are in a lot of phones these days. The Sony sensors aren't bad. And it is absolutely absurd to make any conclusions about the Nexus 6 camera based on a couple random photos, from a bad photographer, on a pre-production device.
That aside, what do people expect anyway? The Nexus 6 has a 1/3 sensor like basically every other phone out there these days (including the iPhone) and that just makes for a mediocre camera. They are all more or less equally mediocre and there's no reason to expect anything different from the Nexus 6. It's not about megapixels, its about the actual physical size of the sensor. Phones have not changed from 1/3 sensors for a long time (because they can't do it and remain thin). Only the OIS is an interesting feature on the Nexus 6.
If you want a good camera, get a Nokia 1020 or Nokia 808 and just deal with the operating systems on those phones. They have huge sensors that are far superior to anything and everything else. Even five year old Nokia cameras, like in the N86, have much larger sensors than every phone out there. The only single exception is the Galaxy S5, which has a 1/2.5 sensor like the five year old N86, but the S5 is still nowhere remotely close to the 1020 or 808.
Those are your real choices. Everyone else has just thrown their hands in the air and excepted "good enough" cameras, because they'd rather make the phones super thin, than put good sensors in them. Superficial numbers and specs change, but phone cameras really are not progressing anymore. (Even Nokia has dropped the ball, now that Damian Dinning, the person behind the great cameras at Nokia like the 808, has left the company and the cell phone business.)
cb474 said:
I don't understand what you're talking about. Motorola doesn't make camera sensors. Neither does Google. Just about every phone manufacturer outsources the camera and there are only a handful of companies that actually make camera sensors for phones. The Nexus 6 has a Sony IMX214 Exmor RS sensor. The Sony sensors are in a lot of phones these days. The Sony sensors aren't bad. And it is absolutely absurd to make any conclusions about the Nexus 6 camera based on a couple random photos, from a bad photographer, on a pre-production device.
That aside, what do people expect anyway? The Nexus 6 has a 1/3 sensor like basically every other phone out there these days (including the iPhone) and that just makes for a mediocre camera. They are all more or less equally mediocre and there's no reason to expect anything different from the Nexus 6. It's not about megapixels, its about the actual physical size of the sensor. Phones have not changed from 1/3 sensors for a long time (because they can't do it and remain thin). Only the OIS is an interesting feature on the Nexus 6.
If you want a good camera, get a Nokia 1020 or Nokia 808 and just deal with the operating systems on those phones. They have huge sensors that are far superior to anything and everything else. Even five year old Nokia cameras, like in the N86, have much larger sensors than every phone out there. The only single exception is the Galaxy S5, which has a 1/2.5 sensor like the five year old N86, but the S5 is still nowhere remotely close to the 1020 or 808.
Those are your real choices. Everyone else has just thrown their hands in the air and excepted "good enough" cameras, because they'd rather make the phones super thin, than put good sensors in them. Superficial numbers and specs change, but phone cameras really are not progressing anymore. (Even Nokia has dropped the ball, now that Damian Dinning, the person behind the great cameras at Nokia like the 808, has left the company and the cell phone business.)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What you're saying is fair, but It's not just random bias. I haven't seen a wonderful camera on a Moto phone since.... EVER.
I'm not getting it for the camera, I had the M8... I just want something that has a good camera. Something that doesn't shoot duds. I don't want a potato cam.
ericerk said:
What you're saying is fair, but It's not just random bias. I haven't seen a wonderful camera on a Moto phone since.... EVER.
I'm not getting it for the camera, I had the M8... I just want something that has a good camera. Something that doesn't shoot duds. I don't want a potato cam.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I know a lot of people think the Moto cameras recently have been mediocre, but I really think, for the reasons I said, it's making a big deal out of relatively small differences. All of these phones have mediocre cameras with various limitations. The difference between good mediocre and medium mediocre is not that meaningful to me.
Like I said, if you want the best of the middle of the road cameras, get a Galaxy S5. If you want a truly great camera in a phone, get a Nokia 1020 or Nokia 808. Everything else is splitting hairs.
That said, I think the Nexus 6 (and Moto X) will be fine. As noted, it has a 1/3 Sony Exmor sensor, the likes of which can be found in perfectly respectable phones like the iPhone 4 and 5 and the Galaxy S4. It's not one of the newer generation Exmor RS sensors, but the advantages of those sensors has been overplayed. They're mostly still 1/3 sensors and so, whatever. A 1/3 sensor is never going to make for a great camera. But it is the status quo these days so it's not going to be subpar either (like for example the Nexus 4 that has a tiny 1/4 sensor).
cb474 said:
I know a lot of people think the Moto cameras recently have been mediocre, but I really think, for the reasons I said, it's making a big deal out of relatively small differences. All of these phones have mediocre cameras with various limitations. The difference between good mediocre and medium mediocre is not that meaningful to me.
Like I said, if you want the best of the middle of the road cameras, get a Galaxy S5. If you want a truly great camera in a phone, get a Nokia 1020 or Nokia 808. Everything else is splitting hairs.
That said, I think the Nexus 6 (and Moto X) will be fine. As noted, it has a 1/3 Sony Exmor sensor, the likes of which can be found in perfectly respectable phones like the iPhone 4 and 5 and the Galaxy S4. It's not one of the newer generation Exmor RS sensors, but the advantages of those sensors has been overplayed. They're mostly still 1/3 sensors and so, whatever. A 1/3 sensor is never going to make for a great camera. But it is the status quo these days so it's not going to be subpar either (like for example the Nexus 4 that has a tiny 1/4 sensor).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you'd like to chip in on the 700+ I have to put into this phone, I feel the right to have my own opinion on it.
I like a decent cam in the device.
I want to to be up to my standards, now yours. We don't know if this is the final hw version of the camera. We'll see that in a few weeks.
I want a nexus, w/ a non moto esque camera. The N5 was good enough. Except able.
For example the moto X took decent pictures... but they were really bad, and grainy and had weird artifacts. There was grain, and distortion in high light.
The moto x 2014 is crap in low light, the light ring isn't really conducive to light up anything.
The nexus 6 has the same set up, which makes me nervous. The camera is in theory the same as well.
All I'm saying is their track record is bad. Googles been talking about making better cameras on their flag ship devices for ages. So we're hoping w/ this one it's a home run
They weren't restricted in price in this variation. They put in very high end spec, and components. If the camera isn't just as good as the Galaxy S4 I will be upset. Very upset.
The S4 had a wonderful camera.
That's my bench mark.
ericerk said:
If you'd like to chip in on the 700+ I have to put into this phone, I feel the right to have my own opinion on it.
I like a decent cam in the device.
I want to to be up to my standards, now yours. We don't know if this is the final hw version of the camera. We'll see that in a few weeks.
I want a nexus, w/ a non moto esque camera. The N5 was good enough. Except able.
For example the moto X took decent pictures... but they were really bad, and grainy and had weird artifacts. There was grain, and distortion in high light.
The moto x 2014 is crap in low light, the light ring isn't really conducive to light up anything.
The nexus 6 has the same set up, which makes me nervous. The camera is in theory the same as well.
All I'm saying is their track record is bad. Googles been talking about making better cameras on their flag ship devices for ages. So we're hoping w/ this one it's a home run
They weren't restricted in price in this variation. They put in very high end spec, and components. If the camera isn't just as good as the Galaxy S4 I will be upset. Very upset.
The S4 had a wonderful camera.
That's my bench mark.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You have the right to have your opinion but that doesn't make it a thoughtful opinion.
If you think the Nexus 5 was good enough, with a Sony Exmor IMX179 1/3.2 sensor, than it makes zero sense to think that the Nexus 6 with a newer technically better Sony Exmor IMX214 and slightly larger 1/3.06 sensor is worse, and it makes even less sense to think that the 2nd Gen Moto X with a newer generation Sony Exmor RS IMX135 and also slightly larger 1/3.06 sensor is worse.
People make all these subjective judgements about the cameras in the phones and don't realize that they all have more or less the same sensor in them from Sony.
What's more you based your initial judgement about the Nexus 6 camera on a couple random poorly taken snapshots linked to in the OP, from a pre-prodcution Nexus 6 that may not have even had the same sensor in it as the final production unit.
So yes you have a right to your opinion. But it is a very poorly reasoned, jumping to unfounded conclusions opinion, based on a misunderstanding of the actual sensors in these phones. Wait for a good site, like Dpreview to test the camera in the Nexus 6 or Moto X and then maybe you will have a basis for coming to some sort of conclusion.
But in the end, with the 1/3 sensors, these phones are still going to all be in the same ballpark. People can make a big deal out of minor distinctions, if they want to, but it's silly and not meaningful in real world situations. The reason to spend a lot of money on a phone like this is not for the camera.
cb474 said:
You have the right to have your opinion but that doesn't make it a thoughtful opinion.
If you think the Nexus 5 was good enough, with a Sony Exmor IMX179 1/3.2 sensor, than it makes zero sense to think that the Nexus 6 with a newer technically better Sony Exmor IMX214 and slightly larger 1/3.06 sensor is worse, and it makes even less sense to think that the 2nd Gen Moto X with a newer generation Sony Exmor RS IMX135 and also slightly larger 1/3.06 sensor is worse.
People make all these subjective judgements about the cameras in the phones and don't realize that they all have more or less the same sensor in them from Sony.
What's more you based your initial judgement about the Nexus 6 camera on a couple random poorly taken snapshots linked to in the OP, from a pre-prodcution Nexus 6 that may not have even had the same sensor in it as the final production unit.
So yes you have a right to your opinion. But it is a very poorly reasoned, jumping to unfounded conclusions opinion, based on a misunderstanding of the actual sensors in these phones. Wait for a good site, like Dpreview to test the camera in the Nexus 6 or Moto X and then maybe you will have a basis for coming to some sort of conclusion.
But in the end, with the 1/3 sensors, these phones are still going to all be in the same ballpark. People can make a big deal out of minor distinctions, if they want to, but it's silly and not meaningful in real world situations. The reason to spend a lot of money on a phone like this is not for the camera.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My opinion is based off of the moto x 2014. Nothing concrete has been released about the camera internals that I've seen.
I'm buying this phone even if it doesn't have a camera (That's a lie)
As I note above more than once, the Nexus 6 has the Sony Exmor IMX214 sensor. That information is readily available online. See: http://www.devicespecifications.com/en/model/617b3011. This is the same sensor as in the OnePlus One, a phone for which the camera has been praised a lot and the OnePlus One doesn't even have OIS.
That being said, the 2nd Gen Moto X, as I said, has a Sony Exmor RS IMX135. This is the same sensor as in the Galaxy S4, making it completely silly that you're so down on the 2nd Gen Moto X, but hold up the Galaxy S4 as your minimun standard that a phone camera has to meet. The IMX135 can also be found in the LG G3, the LG G2, the Note 3, amongst many other phones, further putting the lie to the idea that there are big differences between the cameras in these phones.
Doesn't camera software also play a role in how well a photo is taken?
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
DirgeExtinction said:
Doesn't camera software also play a role in how well a photo is taken?
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To some degree yes. But it's relevance is pretty minor. Sometimes there are problems when a phone first comes out that are later corrected in software updates(colors being off one way or another). A lot of phones favor oversaturated colors, instead of more realistic colors, which is something determined by how the image is processed by the phone after it is captured. Some phones apply more sharpening effects, which at first glance make an image look, well, sharper, but actually eliminate some detail in the image (though you will only notice if you zoom all the way in to the pixel level--which is not what most people are doing, most people are downsizing images to send to people and therefore eliminating most of quality of the image to begin with). But again, this is all fiddling around the edges to compensate for what are essentially very small sensors that are simply physically limited in what they can do.
Also, these software effects are pretty much all things that can be changed in post-processing on a computer, so they are not ultimate limitations to the images that can be produced with a particular phone. But the sensor is such a limitation, there is no getting beyond what it is or is not possible with a paritcular sensor.
Looks like we're gonna get another mediocre camera in a Nexus device, nothing abnormal here. I don't mind too much, I rarely, if ever, use my phone as a camera. If I anticipate taking photos, I'll bring a real, decent camera with me. Otherwise the mediocre shots from the Nexus'll be just fine.
Was kind of hoping that they'd get the camera right this time, though. I would have been nice, especially for others who rely on it more, but it seems they put their money elsewhere.
PewPewK said:
Looks like we're gonna get another mediocre camera in a Nexus device, nothing abnormal here. I don't mind too much, I rarely, if ever, use my phone as a camera. If I anticipate taking photos, I'll bring a real, decent camera with me. Otherwise the mediocre shots from the Nexus'll be just fine.
Was kind of hoping that they'd get the camera right this time, though. I would have been nice, especially for others who rely on it more, but it seems they put their money elsewhere.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Did you look at my posts above? The Nexus 6 has the same Sony camera sensor as the OnePlus One, which a lot of people have praised for it's photos. Plus it has OIS. Yes the Nexus 5 and especially the Nexus 4 had subpar cameras, by today's standards. But the Nexus 6 is pretty much on a par with all other flagships out there. It should be a step up (on a par with the LG G3, iPhone, Galaxy S4, etc.).
That being said, as I've argued above, all of the latest flagship phones these days have mediocre cameras, because of their 1/3 sensors, so in that sense the Nexus 6 will be no different. The only truly good flagship phone camera is the Galaxy S5, which has a larger 1/2.5 sensor. And the only phones with what could be called next generation, big step forward cameras, are the Nokia 1020 and the Nokia 808, with huge 1/1.5 and 1/1.2 sensors (respectively), mechanicals shutters, and other advances way beyond anything else.
But I think there's no reason to be down on the Nexus 6 for it's camera. It's keeping up with the pack.