Related
I don't own this phone, but was considering switching from Cingular's GSM network to Sprint's CDMA so that I can use high speed EV-DO, since I have no idea when Cingular's UMTS or HSDPA upgrade will happen.
Anywho... getting back on track to my question. It says that this phone has a GPS chip, which is used for E-911 location. Can this chip be used by navigation software, such as TomTom? Or is it only utilized when you dial 911?
I currently have the HTC Beetles (HP iPAQ 6515b) and it has a built-in GPS antenna that I just love, and would like to get another phone that still has this feature.
The GPS info is not available for mapping programs.
Correct.
ran-o-matic said:
The GPS info is not available for mapping programs.
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Click to collapse
At this time that information is unavailable. Please see posts at
http://pdaphonehome.com/forums/ppc-6700-xv6700/73387-possible-access-gps-data-6700-a-1.html
It's nine pages as of current date. No answers yet.
Does Anyone knows how to get the Internal GPS to work with Windows Live Map?
Thanks,
gpsone isn't in standalone mode so it cannot be accessed by applications
There are rumors that it'll be activated in the EVDO Rev A update this fall.
so wait... mogul has a gps?
it's built into the qualcomm cpu like the kaiser. it's assumed the gps shares the cell antenna since there's no gps antenna on board and the documentation states this is possible. the kaiser has the 7200 the mogul has the 7500. kaiser w/ test rom allows for the gpsone to run in standalone mode and the kaiser seems to have an antenna so it works.
as of right now it's assumed gps will work when unlocked but it's still a gray area; there may or may not be an antenna
The FCC application describes the Mogul as
"a CDMA850/CDMA1900 (1XEVDO / 1XRTT / IS-95A/B) Pocket PC Phone with wireless LAN, bluetooth, and GPS functions."
https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/ViewExhibitReport.cfm?mode=Exhibits&RequestTimeout=500&calledFromFrame=N&application_id=391628&fcc_id='NM8TITA100'
the listing of gps functionality is ambiguous; all cellphones are required to have agps for e911 emergency in the usa as mandated by the fcc. gpsone is in quite a few htc devices but only a handful have antennas attached
how accurate is agps? versus standalone gps?
someone on PPCgeeks reported that Live Search was working on Sprint Moguls using tower triangulation. I'm not sure if this is different than AGPS, but it sure it neat to have location based services, even if accurate only to a few hundred yards...
Dishe said:
someone on PPCgeeks reported that Live Search was working on Sprint Moguls using tower triangulation. I'm not sure if this is different than AGPS, but it sure it neat to have location based services, even if accurate only to a few hundred yards...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A-GPS = tower assisted GPS.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_GPS
i had my telenav rep confirm when the rev a patch is released that the GPS will be unlocked as well.
samspoon said:
the listing of gps functionality is ambiguous; all cellphones are required to have agps for e911 emergency in the usa as mandated by the fcc. gpsone is in quite a few htc devices but only a handful have antennas attached
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Click to collapse
All cell phones certainly DO NOT have aGPS. Please do not confuse aGPS for tower triangulation.
aGPS is assisted GPS meaning it uses the cell phone towers to assist an existing GPS chipset.
So if the Mogul has aGPS, then it has to have GPS by definition.
he is right though. FCC does now require that ALL new phones in the united states have GPS (to an extent) for at least e911.
TC1 said:
A-GPS = tower assisted GPS.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_GPS
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, I'm aware of the definition.
The way AGPS is described is similar to how articles are describing the technology Sprint and MS are using... and since every Sprint phone is mandated by the FCC to have 911 AGPS capabilities, I'm wondering if this is the same thing.
samspoon said:
as of right now it's assumed gps will work when unlocked but it's still a gray area; there may or may not be an antenna
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Kaiser has a big "GPS" on the back where you can hook up an external antenna. No such luck with the Mogul.
But I still can hope that _some_ kind of GPS would come with Rev.A. Sucky GPS is better than no GPS...
I think you guys know as well as I do, that even if the phone has a functional gps and a antenna sprint will still never unlock it. Its not that they dont want to, they are lazy. There have been lots of firmware "updates" I have been waiting for on other sprint phones that they were going to release and never did.
As for external GPS recievers what do you guys think of this one?
http://www.semsons.com/wo44chawaauo.html
That supports A-GPS you think that would work?
Madzilla said:
I think you guys know as well as I do, that even if the phone has a functional gps and a antenna sprint will still never unlock it. Its not that they dont want to, they are lazy. There have been lots of firmware "updates" I have been waiting for on other sprint phones that they were going to release and never did.
As for external GPS recievers what do you guys think of this one?
http://www.semsons.com/wo44chawaauo.html
That supports A-GPS you think that would work?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
if you are going to go with an external BT reciever any should work, since its not using the phones GPS at all
If you want an external, get a Holux M-1200. Tiny, cheap, and works amazing. I love mine!
ok, so any external gps will work? some of them say A-GPS compatible and others dont. Does that matter at all?
I was told by my friend who works at Sprint today that they will be unlocking the GPS in Quarter 4 of this year.
She said that originally they did not unlock it as they were having issues with the hardware and software, but are prepping to unlock it soon to us.
Sorry if this has been put out there already, but thought I would share what I heard. hopeful anyway, huh?
Is this guy a reliable source of info? Or is he a rep who hears stuff through the grapevine like the rest of us? (I've heard some crazy misunderstood info coming from people who "work for sprint")
Over at ppcgeeks.com someone dissasembled their Mogul and the general conclusion was that the GPS had been disabled via hardware, although they admit they're not sure.
The rumor also was that it would be available to us with the Rev A update due to come out soon. Although no one knew for sure where this info came from. Could be someone made it up, wishful thinking.
So, yes, this rumor has been around, but we're still waiting for someone to actually confirm it.
Honestly, I'll beleive it when I see it.
Dishe said:
Is this guy a reliable source of info? Or is he a rep who hears stuff through the grapevine like the rest of us? (I've heard some crazy misunderstood info coming from people who "work for sprint")
Over at ppcgeeks.com someone dissasembled their Mogul and the general conclusion was that the GPS had been disabled via hardware, although they admit they're not sure.
The rumor also was that it would be available to us with the Rev A update due to come out soon. Although no one knew for sure where this info came from. Could be someone made it up, wishful thinking.
So, yes, this rumor has been around, but we're still waiting for someone to actually confirm it.
Honestly, I'll beleive it when I see it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This person is a software engineer at Sprint, and she said that the reason they didn't have it unlocked in the beginning was due to a hardware/software conflict, but that it will be unlocked in an upcoming ROM update. She said that Sprint had announced it somewhere internally.
I have a few contacts in sprint, I'll try verifying this tommorow
From what I understand, the Mogul has A-GPS. This is the same GPS that allows them to find you if you make an emergency call. It does not work off sattelites but rather from cell towers.
On the bright side, it shares the same Qualcomm 7200 chip that the Kaiser will use.
Some maintain that the Kaiser has built in GPS, others claim it has no satellite antenna and requires an external antenna.
Sprint originally advertised the phone as having GPS. Now that has been removed from their advertisement.
It will be ineresting to see what will happen with the evdo rev. a upgrade later this year.
rambo6 said:
From what I understand, the Mogul has A-GPS. This is the same GPS that allows them to find you if you make an emergency call. It does not work off sattelites but rather from cell towers.
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Click to collapse
Exactly. The bottom line from what I understand is that the Mogul does not have the built-in hardware to do full GPS that will work with independent mapping software (Google, etc).
[RANT]This is getting a bit old - people claiming that A-GPS does not work off satellites.
Please do some research before posting this type of mis-information.
A-GPS is Assisted GPS. It uses information from the cellular network to ASSIST the GPS for faster TTFF.
And the Mogul uses a different chipset than the Kaiser. One uses the 7200, while the other 7500.[/RANT]
Ok... so now that you ranted... is it your opinion that the Mogul will or will not be able to do full GPS?
And actually.... A-GPS doesn't directly work off of the satellites. Since it takes a long time for a cell phone device to download the positioning data from the GPS satellites, what the A-GPS system does is let the A-GPS servers at the cell towers download and accumulate the data, the cell phones then talk to the A-GPS servers to get the data (which happens within seconds).
When A-GPS is enabled, would it have the possibility to work with Mobile GMaps ? Or is the Java still restricted?
Don't we have A-GPS already enabled? Isn't that the little GPS icon in the phone dialer? I know I have the option to turn it off/on in the phone settings just like all other agps handsets.
If something is going to be "enabled" with a new update, that means it will most likely be real standalone GPS.
TC1, no one knows that for sure. It was speculated.
I AM POSTING THIS FOR THE LAST TIME
The Mogul has the Qualcomm msm7500 as its cpu. BUILT INTO the cpu is the gpsone chipset. This is able to achieve AGPS as well as GPS. It runs in 4 different modes. To have the serial link to work with applications the chipset must be run in standalone mode.
It is on the damn phone as it is part of the cpu! It is currently not in standalone mode so there is no way to access the chip. The only true thing up in the air is whether or not the phone can obtain a satellite lock in standalone mode.
Dishe said:
Don't we have A-GPS already enabled? Isn't that the little GPS icon in the phone dialer? I know I have the option to turn it off/on in the phone settings just like all other agps handsets.
If something is going to be "enabled" with a new update, that means it will most likely be real standalone GPS.
TC1, no one knows that for sure. It was speculated.
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Click to collapse
Correct, like almost every modern cell phone, A-GPS is enabled. There is no debate there.
I agree with you regarding speculation on the "stand-alone GPS" aspect. I've never seen definitive info from HTC that says yes or no on this subject. If there is real info regarding this, some links would be nice.
HTC's site says:
It is widely rumored that this phone has a GPS chip that has been disabled. Will there be a hack or workaround to enable GPS capabilities?
Answer: Not likely, it is AGPS which requires a connected call to get data location.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sonix6 said:
HTC's site says:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thats from their wiki site, so its not necessarily true
/me keeps fingers crossed
This would be good news. I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for this.
gpsone (in most all msm chipsets including kaiser and mogul):
How gpsOne Works:
The gpsOne technology functions in four different modes of operation. Chosen automatically or specified by software, the
four modes are Standalone GPS, Mobile Station (MS)-based, MS-assisted and MS-assisted/Hybrid. In the A-GPS modes,
gpsOne technology utilizes assistance data from a location server in the wireless network in combination with A-GPS circuitry
and software in the wireless device.
Note: The common term used by standards bodies for the handset/terminal device in CDMA2000 is "Mobile Station" (MS) and in WCDMA (UMTS)/GPRS/GSM/HSDPA/EDGE is
“User Equipment” (UE). For simplicity in this document, references to the handset/terminal will be "MS," but this use implies both MS and UE.
Standalone GPS: The GPS receiver calculates a position without using any assistance data and without a connection to
the wireless network.
MS-Based: The GPS receiver calculates the position using assistance data from a location server to increase cold-start
sensitivity and reduce the start time for an initial position calculation.
MS-Assisted: The GPS receiver uses assistance data from a location server to make measurements related to its distance
from the GPS satellites, then sends this information to the location server where the position is calculated. This mode also
increases cold start sensitivity and reduces the start time for an initial position calculation.
MS-Assisted/Hybrid: Wireless network information is added to GPS measurements as part of the position calculation by
the location server, integrating the relative strengths of GPS information and available wireless network location information
for increased positioning reliability in difficult GPS environments.
In assisted operation, a gpsOne-enabled handset receives
a small “assistance data” message from a network location
server using standardized protocols
• The handset then reads information from GPS satellites to
measure its distance from all the satellites it can see (called
“ranging” information).
• The handset then uses this ranging information to create a
position “fix,” or sends the ranging information back to the
server where it can be combined with network information
to produce an even better fix.
• gpsOne also operates in Standalone mode, without requiring
any assistance data from the network
straight from the gpsOne document.
interesting indeed... question is, will Sprint release firmware that allows it to run in standalone mode?
I suppose the truth is, even if it doesn't, someone can figure out how to enable it with some sort of hack eventually since its just software controlled according to this document.
has anyone played with this reg key?
\HKCU\ControlPanel\PhoneExtendFunction\CDMA\GPSOneSetting = 0
Edit: the value does not contain a space between "GPSOne" and "Setting", but vbulletin modifies my text when i post....
I don't know if this info helps or not... I spoke to a HTC TS and they told me the 6800 has GPS but is sprint decision to enable it or not. He also told me that it can be unlock but sprint is the only one with the code and he can not provide me with that info.
New poster old reader, may be found some info.
I found Many info that may me can help somebodies about the msm 7500 (gpsOne technologie)...It is hard to know what to believe 'cause half/half
people say that this is impossible, and the other half say that gonna happen soon. I think that we should make our own idea by our own knowledge . I found many topic on many forum (htc, gpsunderground,here...ask me if interressed) One Qualcomm offical site i've got pdf about msm chips, and gpsOne tech... (Snap track location service for gpsOne may be a good start point to invest)
Interessing link's:
FCC test repport for tita100 (titan) (That include plane mode settings):
https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas...lledFromFrame=N&application_id=391628&fcc_id=
Here it seem to be codes:
http://www.wlt.net.cn/index0/FD-800/pdf/CNI FD-800 gpsOne Menual ver1 0_0117.pdf
Similar:
http://www.wlt.net.cn/index0/FD-800/pdf/FD-800_Application_Guide ver1 0(1).pdf
And found other about SDK from Qualcomm API's seem to be aivalaible to third party dev. Also seem to be hard to be registred as dev. But hope...
And if internal budies have code it is just a time question before a solution.
So i wish that i'm not making more mistake or false info...if tell me.
And for gps freak who will tell that different anthenna needed, diffrent frequencies for GPS...see the end of the document FD-800 manual (2nd link).
So thank for this helpfull forum, forgive my poor english expression, and lack of programming knoledge , my is disignig pcb, and electrical pannels, but not to programme them's( not enough )...
may be a dumb question.
Is blackstone has a GPS (not AGPS) ?
ie. without a sim phone card , it can still receive GPS signal for mapking ?
It's a real GPS, works great with, for example TomTom.
yes gps works without a sim card. agps is also available through registry settings but requires a Data connection.
lots of people seem to think that aGPS is a cheap substitute for normal gps
but thats not the case aGPS is normal gps plus the ability to get locations
from cellphone towers if one can't get a clear gps signal like if one enters
a long tunnel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPS_Phone
aGPS is often mistaken as location-based service (LBS) or server-based GPS. mainly because the first generation of "Quick GPS" is also known as AGPS, which essentially is to download the satellite orbit path in advance instead of get it directly from the satellites at the point the receiver is trying to get a fix. The download process (receiving it from satellite) can be a lengthy process (30sec or longer depending on the reception level) thus the purpose of QGPS/AGPS.
I wrote a short article on the myth about AGPS, you can take a read if you are interested
Does anyone know what GPS chip is actually in the Touch HD? Is it a Sirf III? Is Static Navigation "ON" by default?
gregwee said:
Is it a Sirf III?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, it isn't. GPS is integrated in the MSM chip, I think its called something like Qualcomm MSM7201A gpsOne.
zenkinz said:
aGPS is often mistaken as location-based service (LBS) or server-based GPS. mainly because the first generation of "Quick GPS" is also known as AGPS, which essentially is to download the satellite orbit path in advance instead of get it directly from the satellites at the point the receiver is trying to get a fix. The download process (receiving it from satellite) can be a lengthy process (30sec or longer depending on the reception level) thus the purpose of QGPS/AGPS.
I wrote a short article on the myth about AGPS, you can take a read if you are interested
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thanks very much ..
thanks all for explaining ...
Hi
Does aGPS require you to have a cellular data connection in order for it to work? Or will it work with any internet connection (eg. using my laptop's connection through wifi)? I'm asking because I don't have a data plan (yet), and my phone has locked only _once_ since I bought it a month or so ago. I've tried switching to MS based in LbsTestmode, changing the supl server to supl-google-com and supl-nokia-com (can't post links yet).
The one time it did lock was when I was testing the GPS without an internet connection, and I entered a WiFi covered area and it suddenly locked (5-10m accuracy). It wasn't WiFi-based positioning because it was my laptop's WiFi hotspot. And I was using the default settings at that time (www-spirent-lcs-com, Standalone mode). Since then I've tried different combinations of settings but it hasn't ever locked.
Another question: What's the difference between MS based and MS assisted modes?
My phone is an I9000 Galaxy S.
ssj4Gogeta1 said:
Hi
Does aGPS require you to have a cellular data connection in order for it to work? Or will it work with any internet connection (eg. using my laptop's connection through wifi)? I'm asking because I don't have a data plan (yet), and my phone has locked only _once_ since I bought it a month or so ago. I've tried switching to MS based in LbsTestmode, changing the supl server to supl-google-com and supl-nokia-com (can't post links yet).
The one time it did lock was when I was testing the GPS without an internet connection, and I entered a WiFi covered area and it suddenly locked (5-10m accuracy). It wasn't WiFi-based positioning because it was my laptop's WiFi hotspot. And I was using the default settings at that time (www-spirent-lcs-com, Standalone mode). Since then I've tried different combinations of settings but it hasn't ever locked.
Another question: What's the difference between MS based and MS assisted modes?
My phone is an I9000 Galaxy S.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Correct me if i am wrong, but as i know aGPS doesn´t need any Data Connection to make the triangulation between the GSM Antennas. So no need for Internet Connection to use aGPS.
TMReuffurth said:
Correct me if i am wrong, but as i know aGPS doesn´t need any Data Connection to make the triangulation between the GSM Antennas. So no need for Internet Connection to use aGPS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
AFAIK aGPS is different from cellular triangulation. It refers to downloading satellite information from a server for a quicker fix.
ssj4Gogeta1 said:
AFAIK aGPS is different from cellular triangulation. It refers to downloading satellite information from a server for a quicker fix.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I thought it would make a triangulation between the next availabe antennas in range and get over a dedicated channel (not data channel as mentioned above) localisation informations. Because my Nokia N80 had aGPS but not real GPS and in the manual they said something about this triangulation.
But of course i know the download of the actual satelite coordenates from my Touch HD in Windows Mobile with a dedicated App. Just thougth it is something diferent.
TMReuffurth said:
I thought it would make a triangulation between the next availabe antennas in range and get over a dedicated channel (not data channel as mentioned above) localisation informations. Because my Nokia N80 had aGPS but not real GPS and in the manual they said something about this triangulation.
But of course i know the download of the actual satelite coordenates from my Touch HD in Windows Mobile with a dedicated App. Just thougth it is something diferent.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
aGPS is a technology that downloads satellite data from agps servers at realtime (that is the time you are using the GPS): WIKI article
I guess that the app you are refering to, the one you used on the HTC, is Quick GPS. This program doesn't download satellite postition data in realtime but once in a while. (I believe the data are vallid for 48h) With Quick GPS one can still enjoy the features of aGPS while one hasn't a data connection with a aGPS server.
The Galaxy S GPS (BCM4751) seems to have both, aGPS and a sort of Quick GPS. Only the last is called LTO by broadcom. (see: http://www.broadcom.com/press/release.php?id=s443754 about BCM4571 specs and see here about LTO.
aGPS uses cell tower triangulation, and information from a server, in addition to satellite radio signals, to quickly assist in determining the coordinates of a phone's location. Since cell tower sites are precisely surveyed, they are a reliable source for locational data. A data connection is required. All modern cell phones, at least here in the United States, are required to have aGPS service for use in locating a phone by emergency responders. This is a part of the E911 and is required by FCC mandate. Data is used in tracking down the phone, but it happens behind the scenes and is paid for by fees charged to cellular users on their bills for E911 compliance.
On phones that allow the user to make use of the aGPS chip, there will generally be a setting that allows you to set for E911 use only, or for what is commonly referred to as "location based services." On my Android phones, there are actually two settings, both found in Location & Security Settings. One allows for location based upon use of wireless networks, and the other allowing a fix via GPS satellites. Even with any location based services turned off, emergency responders can still find the phone. The difference being that you cannot use it.
While it is technically possible for you to use your phone's aGPS without a data connection, your chances of getting a signal are sketchy, and your chances of getting a really accurate signal are, under most circumstances, slim to none. Much of the computational work in determining your location is done by the assistance server, and guess how that information moves to and from your phone? Yep, you guessed it, data!
GPS signals sent from satellites are simply radio signals, and your local pop music radio station probably sends its signals with more force. As they are radio signals, they have to contend with everything a radio signal has to deal with, and a large percentage of that is man-made. Signals confusingly bounce off of buildings, are weakened by passing through walls and foliage, or can even be absorbed in some cases by different materials.
Some aGPS chips cannot function as stand alone GPS, and will not work at all without a data connection.
Try this, turn off your cellular radio. Make sure that your WiFi is also off. Now, fire up Google Maps and ask it to start navigation. How did it work?
appelflap said:
I guess that the app you are refering to, the one you used on the HTC, is Quick GPS. This program doesn't download satellite postition data in realtime but once in a while. (I believe the data are vallid for 48h) With Quick GPS one can still enjoy the features of aGPS while one hasn't a data connection with a aGPS server.
.
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Yeah, that i was talking about. Didn´t know this all I love this forum, you always learn more and more.
rasmith3530 said:
Try this, turn off your cellular radio. Make sure that your WiFi is also off. Now, fire up Google Maps and ask it to start navigation. How did it work?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, using Google Maps would not be a valid test, of course, since you need data connection to download the local map anyway. If you want to test whether data connection is requires by aGPS, you need to use an offline GPS application.
Thank you for your guys replies.
@rasmith3530: So can that data be downloaded over wifi? (My common sense says yes, just trying to confirm.) If it can, then aGPS isn't working for me at all. I see at max 2-3 satellites in LbsTestMode, without a lock on any of them.
No one said aGPS is working on SGS. They are broken and no fixes yet.
foxbat121 said:
No one said aGPS is working on SGS. They are broken and no fixes yet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think you're right. The fact that there are no ephemeris and almanac data recorded for satellites let me think that it may be the case that with a certain informed guess aGPS and the advertised LTO function doesn't work on none of the firmwares.
Other people seem to have locking/accuracy problems, they can at least see those satellites. Mine normally shows 0 or 1, so I thought maybe I'm doing something wrong.
ssj4Gogeta1 said:
Other people seem to have locking/accuracy problems, they can at least see those satellites. Mine normally shows 0 or 1, so I thought maybe I'm doing something wrong.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In JM1-JG5, I had that issue (couldn't lock onto anything). Switching to JM5 fixed that..