Database Users

TyTN/Hermes DOES NOT underperform.

What on earth is going on? I know where talking about 2 different Moblie operating Systems and devices, but he performance difference explains alot in terms of why the TyTN/Hermes....is underperforming in the Video department, especially with TCPMP.
If this is the case with Video, which can easily be measured for performance, how much more are these Hermes devices lacking in other departments.
Apparently the developers of TCPMP at corecodec are aware of this problem, but it seems to be more related to the Hermes itself.
Below are a few screenshots of 2 different Pocket PCs using the same Samsung 400 Mhz CPU but with completely different results.
Also, I would not necessariliy pay the figures too much mind if the Video performance was at least as good as on the Vario I or the HTC Prophet, but it is not IMHO.
Tell me what you guys think. Maybe I've got it all wrong.
I did have it at all wrong. please read up about the ATI thingy in other post.

I'm dissapointed with the speed too. I'm wondering if it's got anything to do with the 32-bit bus used?

bydandie said:
I'm dissapointed with the speed too. I'm wondering if it's got anything to do with the 32-bit bus used?
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Hi bydandie.
You may have a point, but then I'm not having any other speed issues. What were the bus speeds on the Universal and Wizard? Do you know? Also;
Samsung (R)2442A [Hermes]
Samsung S3C2440 [HP iPAQ rx3715]
Both run @ 400Mhz
but as we can they don't appear to be identical processors. I'll google around for some info as I'm no expert, but it may still be ROM specific.
What Hermes variant have you got again? and what ROM version?

I was hoping the upgraded 200 extra mhz over the Vario, would be good, apprently it doesn't sound like the video playback is that much better. What is the video playback like ?

This is down to the Hermes not being able to utilise the ATI acceleration technology (can't remember the actual name) properly.
If you try playing a video in TCPMP with the acceleration on, on the Hermes, you will find that the screen shutters like mad!
So you can only use raw video mode for now, which is pretty slow. (But plenty quick enough for 320x240 videos, i.e. most "pocket pr0n")

mackaby007 said:
bydandie said:
I'm dissapointed with the speed too. I'm wondering if it's got anything to do with the 32-bit bus used?
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Click to collapse
Hi bydandie.
You may have a point, but then I'm not having any other speed issues. What were the bus speeds on the Universal and Wizard? Do you know? Also;
Samsung (R)2442A [Hermes]
Samsung S3C2440 [HP iPAQ rx3715]
Both run @ 400Mhz
but as we can they don't appear to be identical processors. I'll google around for some info as I'm no expert, but it may still be ROM specific.
What Hermes variant have you got again? and what ROM version?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Wizard was 16-bit. I'm using the v1605 but with the HTC ROM.

mackaby007 said:
Hi bydandie.
You may have a point, but then I'm not having any other speed issues. What were the bus speeds on the Universal and Wizard? Do you know? Also;
Samsung (R)2442A [Hermes]
Samsung S3C2440 [HP iPAQ rx3715]
Both run @ 400Mhz
but as we can they don't appear to be identical processors. I'll google around for some info as I'm no expert, but it may still be ROM specific.
What Hermes variant have you got again? and what ROM version?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Both run at the same CPU speed, but have very different operating systems. According to the screen shot in the first post, the rx3700 tested is running pocket pc 4.21 (2003 second edition IIRC), whereas the Hermes is running Windows Mobile 5. I would guess the rx3700 doesn't have the slowdown related to persistant storage (for example), using some form of flash for memory is going to be slower than RAM.

I have a Eten M600 on WM5 and the samsung 400 proc. the TyTN use also the 400 proc.
When i compare them both on speed then my Eten is much faster in every way. much more responsive. opening and rendering screens.
Altough i prefer my TyTN over the M600, the build-hardware and sound is much better.
I guess it must be the ROM that isn't perfect yet ( and it isn't perfect yet for sure).

I have a Eten M600 on WM5 and the samsung 400 proc. the TyTN use also the 400 proc.
When i compare them both on speed then my Eten is much faster in every way. much more responsive. opening and rendering screens.
Altough i prefer my TyTN over the M600, the build-hardware and sound is much better.
I guess it must be the ROM that isn't perfect yet ( and it isn't perfect yet for sure).

ROM or CPU lacking?
luminus said:
I have a Eten M600 on WM5 and the samsung 400 proc. the TyTN use also the 400 proc.
When i compare them both on speed then my Eten is much faster in every way. much more responsive. opening and rendering screens.
Altough i prefer my TyTN over the M600, the build-hardware and sound is much better.
I guess it must be the ROM that isn't perfect yet ( and it isn't perfect yet for sure).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for your input guys. Luminus your point sounds like there may be hope for us all yet, but having said that, bydandie has switched to the TyTN ROM and I have moved to the I-mate ROM and admittedly we have both both probably experienced some improvements over the ROMs our devices shipped with but the Video playback issue remains, albeit slightly improved too (therefore indicative of being software related).
I spent several hours reading up on the SC32442A Samsung processor and I have to admit, whilst not having enough knowledge to fully understand all the technicalities, it seems that the CPU in the Hermes is one serious 'dude' which is not being used to its Full potential. Apparently its just as quick as a Xscale 520MHz CPU!
I can believe it due to the responsiveness of my device in general (with I-mate ROM), but its just not evident in the Videoplayback department.
I've also tried many differently encoded movie clips like its native MP4 and Divx etc but only negligable differences. I now believe, as posted by bydandie (I think), that its due to the ATI acceleration chip/software not doing what it is supposed and that maybe HTC should look into this as the different ROMs don't seem to make any worthwhile difference in this particular department.
For anyone who's reading this for the first time let me clarify that playback speed is acceptable to watch any well encoded movie (320x240 @ up to 768 kbps) but pausing, forwarding etc then resuming playback is where the problems occurr (for me anyhow). Benchmarking shows that the Wizard (overclocked @240MHz) easily outperforms the Hermes, but not in everything else. Though admittedly I also find the overclocked HTC Prophet @240MHz more responsive all round! Again this seems to indicate that acceleration support is missing across the border.
For the record: I no longer believe TCPMP is in any way at fault. It performs outstandingly on every other device I have ever installed it on, including Samsungs i300 which also had a 400MHz CPU and benchmarked the same videos at well over 300% compared to 120% - 180% were getting on the Hermes!
I give up for now, the problem is way beyond me but hopefully not far off from being found.

Samsung CPU
I'd be interested where you read about this CPU.
It's based on ARMv4 dating back to 2002 and as such is functionally very poor in comparison to the ARMv5 Xscale platforms. This is why it won't allow the current versions of iPlay to operate. It's also unlikely to have the xscale power and performance scaling capabilities as it pre-dated Xscale.
In practise the only thing that has affected me is iplay.
I have just upgraded my 2750 to WM5.
Contrary to what I was told when I purchased the upgrade (many months ago) it is much much faster than the tytn in every respect. It also seems more stable.
For day to day work though - I don't use the TyTN for video - ipod and Archos cover that for me - I find performance very adequate though.
Paul.

Re: Samsung CPU
pgamble said:
I'd be interested where you read about this CPU.
It's based on ARMv4 dating back to 2002 and as such is functionally very poor in comparison to the ARMv5 Xscale platforms. This is why it won't allow the current versions of iPlay to operate. It's also unlikely to have the xscale power and performance scaling capabilities as it pre-dated Xscale.
In practise the only thing that has affected me is iplay.
I have just upgraded my 2750 to WM5.
Contrary to what I was told when I purchased the upgrade (many months ago) it is much much faster than the tytn in every respect. It also seems more stable.
For day to day work though - I don't use the TyTN for video - ipod and Archos cover that for me - I find performance very adequate though.
Paul.
Click to expand...
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Hi again pgamble. I remember you answered an earlier post of mine regarding the CPU. It seems you understand more on these CPUs than I do.
I've provided the linl below to where I read all about the 2442 CPUs (they seem to have variants of it). Hope you understand it better than me. Please let us know what you make of it. Bydandie mentioned that the Hermes uses a 32bit Bus as opposed to the 16 bit Bus used on the first Vario. Do you know if this would negatively or positively affect the speed of data? I would have thought positive, but then I don't fully understand all the technical jargon in the provided link which will probably explain how the technology is utilised.
I hope it doesn't have to share too much of the available data bus/ bandwidth (whatever it is), thus bottlenecking the CPU. I still think at this time its related to the acceleration technology of the ATI Imageon.
http://www.samsung.com/products/sem...ationProcessor/ARM9Series/SC32442/SC32442.htm

http://forum.xda-developers.com/viewtopic.php?t=61370 :wink:

Hermes is a mini-powerhouse!!
Sorry I should have elaborated in that last post which directs you to more accurate information since I started this thread. The Hermes is in fact a mini-powerhouse and even beats the Universal for playback performance under the right conditions.

It's great that the Hermes is powerfull and beats the Universal under the "right conditions"!
But under the "right conditions" DOS beats Windows, it's just a matter on how you compare... :wink:
However, TCPMP still doesn't work as it should on the Hermes. *Standing by for new ROM*

Moskus said:
It's great that the Hermes is powerfull and beats the Universal under the "right conditions"!
But under the "right conditions" DOS beats Windows, it's just a matter on how you compare... :wink:
However, TCPMP still doesn't work as it should on the Hermes. *Standing by for new ROM*
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The ROM ive settled on (imate) will play back no problems with rawframebuffer set for the video output. Admittedly id prefer to use the ATI acceleration but this temporary measure is still ok for me. Sound playback has improved as it does not stutter to a halt after a pause or skip. (for the record im using a 2pass Xvid encoded avi file with 128kbps MP3 audio) this is evident in both the imate and dopod roms......but not the updated HTC rom.

ATI & The Core Player v1.0
I agree with you both (last 2 posts), but from further investigations, it seems that the problem is not related to the ROM either but onlt to the ATI decoder. I've e-mailed ATI in the hope that they can enlighten or help us all. :lol: Fat chance of that I know, but in the ATI Hanheld Interface, there is a version number v2.30.......maybe that can somehow be updated directly if ATI will offer some support or through a ROM update (though it does seem like firmware) .
Anyway all said and done I'm going to keep looking until I find a way to get that bloody decoder to work permanently as it seriously improves all video formats by at least 100% in benchmarking, which means no dropped frames for High Quality encoded files.
Alternatively keep an eye out for the new TCPMP player (The Core Player v1.0) which will hopefully address all these issues within the coming weeks/months. :wink:

Yer i can imagine a ROM update may include an ATI-written updater within it which will sort out the problems. It DOES sound like something that can be fixed though so hopefully soon we will all have it working correctly. :lol:

So, AKU3.3 ROM did fix the problem with ATI, where you had screen going crazy, but there are decoding artefacts which I belive are down to TCPMP/Coreplayer to fix.

schriss said:
So, AKU3.3 ROM did fix the problem with ATI, where you had screen going crazy, but there are decoding artefacts which I belive are down to TCPMP/Coreplayer to fix.
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Click to collapse
Yer, if you look on the coreplayer forum there is a recommended encoding rate etc... but ive still watched videos no problem even using a different encoding rate.

Display Chip in Trinity

Does Trinity have an ATI display Chip as Hermes did? If not, which chip is inside Trinity?
Thanks.

nologin said:
Does Trinity have an ATI display Chip as Hermes did? If not, which chip is inside Trinity?
Thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The chipset used in the Trinity (Qualcomm 6275) does contain a graphics processor, however based on the outcome of benchmarks (pre production models) we may assume that the graphics processor part is not active yet.
Follow the link for a more detailed description of the chipset.
http://translate.google.com/transla...&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=/language_tools

XenoV said:
The chipset used in the Trinity (Qualcomm 6275) does contain a graphics processor, however based on the outcome of benchmarks (pre production models) we may assume that the graphics processor part is not active yet.
Follow the link for a more detailed description of the chipset.
http://translate.google.com/transla...&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=/language_tools
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for your answer.
As far as I know, Hermes also equipped with this chipset, but it seems the chipset has never been activated in hermes. I really wonder if the functionalities of Qualcomm 6275 would be activated in Trinity.
Would the processing power of samsung CPU (400Mhz) alone be able to decode MP4 video at 30fps?
Thanks again.

It should as I am doing that on my Wizard using pocketDVD Studio and TCPMP player using the wizards 200Mhz. CPU. It gets choppy sometimes but only during intense scenes and lasts only for a second or 2. I think it is still watchible though. Hope this helps.

Trinity Mainboard

FYI: Trinity mainboard

great job!! thanks

Superb !!
This ends many speculations and unclarities raised in the past

Great work!
Guys, what's that ATi chip in there? Does the Trinity have some sort of video acceleration?
That would be so awesome.

ATI The Imageon™ 2282
http://ati.amd.com/products/imageon2282/index.html

Guybrush said:
ATI The Imageon™ 2282
http://ati.amd.com/products/imageon2282/index.html
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Thanks for the link.
Probably a real rookie question but did any of the HTC phones before Trinity/Artemis (like Wizard) have a similar ATi-made processor or is this the first?
Videos were choppy at anything above 15fps for me on the Wizard.

forcedalias said:
Videos were choppy at anything above 15fps for me on the Wizard.
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Click to collapse
The Wizard has a 200MHz OMAP processor. The Trinity has a 400MHz Samsung CPU.

forcedalias said:
Thanks for the link.
Probably a real rookie question but did any of the HTC phones before Trinity/Artemis (like Wizard) have a similar ATi-made processor or is this the first?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Wizard was very slooooow in almost everything, however it became a little beter after several ROM updates. As far as I remember the Magician had also an ATI accelerator chip. Same for the HP HX4700 PDA, which was also made by HTC. So the concept is far from new.

Radio
I've seen a post indicating that the P3600 has the same FM Radio chip as the P3300, not being an expert do these image back this up ?
http://forum2.mobile-review.com/showpost.php?p=498824&postcount=63
http://www.solopalmari.com/images/stories/htc/artemis_trinity/p3600_gpsornot/msm6275b.gif
Why the hell doesn't HTC detail the capabilities with a big caveat about achievables ! People will purchase with a premise of what's going to come with a new ROM.

i didn't see FM radio chip on Trinity from motherboard pictures

sorry Guys no FM chip inside p3600, i had confirm from HTC

Can anyone confirm that the bluetooth chip is the Texas Instruments BRF6150?
I hope it is the same chip as the HTC Hermes.
Then there might come the possibility for Widcomm/Broadcomm bluetooth stack.
See:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=285419

XenoV said:
The Wizard was very slooooow in almost everything, however it became a little beter after several ROM updates. As far as I remember the Magician had also an ATI accelerator chip. Same for the HP HX4700 PDA, which was also made by HTC. So the concept is far from new.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Magician did NOT have a graphics chip, ATI or otherwise. Like you said, the concept is far from new, but has not been used very often (at least in phone edition PDAs).
http://wiki.xda-developers.com/index.php?pagename=MagicianHardwareOverview

HELP with HTC P3600 - no Switch
It`s change with a new psot

Pressure is on HTC to Fix Video Drivers?

Came across this website:
http://htcclassaction.org/
Looks like it is specific to the MSM7200 and MSM7500 chipsets not sure the Athena should be included in the list or not since I am not sure what we are running.
Good read anyway and hopefully they will come up with a fix.

Athena's could well benefit from all of this.
marka2k said:
Came across this website:
http://htcclassaction.org/
Looks like it is specific to the MSM7200 and MSM7500 chipsets not sure the Athena should be included in the list or not since I am not sure what we are running.
Good read anyway and hopefully they will come up with a fix.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well I'm trying to get the project leaders to include the Athena and TyTN I device too as the Qualcomm MSM 7200 has ATI and Imageon hardware in it and driver support has never been forthcoming for these devices either.
Granted the Athena and TyTN I are no handheld 3D games devices (as the Kaiser has the potential to be), but they certainly would be much better at handling native VGA H.264 encoded movies/clips if driver support was given.
Who knows where this will lead, but hopefully it will lead to a set of accessible drivers that our very own xda-developers can hack and tweak to perfection.

[Q] Video driver solution... coming this year by Pharos?

I was surfing around wmpoweruser.com and saw this article: http://wmpoweruser.com/?p=2252. It says that Pharos will release this PDA in the Q1 of 2009 and it will rival the HTC Touch HD.
In fact, the specs of the phone are very similar to the HD, but what calls my attention is one really interesting fact: the Pharos phone uses the very same processor as the Touch HD (Qualcomm MSM 7201A 528MHz).
I would like to ask the experts: if the Pharos payed for the video drivers to use hardware acceleration, will it be easy or, at least, possible to import them to Touch HD and we´ll finally have decent video playback?
Thanks!

I think if the drivers for WM existed we would have them by now. I think the GPU is broken and simply doesnt work properly in the Qualcomm CPU or Qualcomm themselves cant get it to work properly, thats why there is only partial support for all its functions.

HTC Touch HD/Diamond/Touch Pro all three of them have video drivers but they are used only with inbuilt players(WMP and video player in gallery). What we need now is to Coreplayer use those DS filters or gain access straight to QTv 'chip' and they said that they finally came to terms with qualcomm about it and now they can start working on it. So one of the upcoming updates(which one I don't know) should finally end this problem but I don't know when it will come.
Here you have link to the topic regarding QTv situation.

The simple test is whether ANY devices on any platform that use the CPU have decent video performance. If not then its clearly a problem with the CPU itself, rather than just the phone manufacturers being cheap.
Qualcomm has other, cheaper CPUs that are just as fast in general terms, but without the GPU, so why fit a CPU with a GPU if your not going to use it?
Sure the HTC Album App can play some files with acceleration, but that is not offering full QTv support and is not providing us with everything the GPU is capable of in theory.
In my view the GPU is broken (or qualcomms implementation is) and therefore writing drivers to fully utilise it is very difficult, which is why there are no fully featured drivers.

Acceleration clearly works - you can play 800*480 high bitrate files in h264 via wmp, but they're a slideshow through other players.

Yes, but its only partial, its not accelerating everything it should. I still say such drivers do not exist, even at qualcomm. Their recent request for windows mobile driver specialists and developers speaks volumes.
It wouldn't be the first time a technology company has launched a broken product on the unsuspecting world, or talked up a product when it really isnt capable of what they claim.

Back to this Traveler 137, it does have impressive specs, looks, gps, and best of all 3G for us T-Mobile USA users! It just won some innovation awards at CES: http://www.pcworld.com/article/1563...ne_offers_navigation_no_network_required.html

I still think that the drivers are here but I think that winmo itself can be blamed for the situation too(using drivers by the system). WinMo should be rewritten for the multimedia so it would bring some universal standards for all video solutions that SoC has to offer. Something like openCL but for mobiles.
The fact that they are looking for programmers and enginners is a good thing and it means that they want to improve the way their products handle wm but it doesn't mean that they don't have people now.
Until somebody gives me concrete proof that the drivers arent there I won't change my opinion. And please don't start talking about GPU problem(which problem I think lies in faulty use or implementation of drivers and that HTC can be blamed cause they take full responsibility of how they configure the device and not SoC maker). I'm only talking here about video acceleration.

Its just that ive seen the same thing happen before, and its usually graphics drivers or memory controllers that suffer. Almost every graphical device we have has some element of broken hardware in it that requires a work around. It may not be the GPU itself, but the interconnect to the CPU, or the way the CPU and GPU interact is just not optimal. Either way something is not right as it is right now.
I very much doubt that there is a driver sitting on a PC in Qualcomm labs that will fix all the issues. I dont believe that no one has been bothered to buy it or that Qualcomm has priced it so high that it wont be used, that makes no sense at all.
HTC are not responsible for the poor driver performance, in fact they have clearly done their own work to work around the issue. What they are responsible for is using the chipset in the first place.
Im waiting to see exactly what Coreplayer ends up like after their improved QTv suport is out. Im willing to bet that it wont make a great deal of difference to anything but H.264 that is already accelerated by the HD native player, but not by Coreplayer currently.

rovex, you might have a point here btw...
I know that the Touch HD runs H264's inloop deblocker in hardware for example. Switching it on or off has no effect on CPU. For pure software decoders it has about 15-25% effect.
Since you can't really apply that specific acceleration to other types of video, it will be interesting to see what other media will be sped up by implementing QTV.