Database Users

The Moto G camera: noise reduction is the key

Here are some details I uncovered in regards to the camera of Moto G:
Camera specification:
- 5mpxl
- f/2.4
- 4mm focal length.
Most definitely a small sensor, (< 1/3.2' ), likely 1/4'. Also very likely won't have BSI for better low light performance.
Meanwhile there's no good teardown (yet) to find out the make of the camera module, by going through the spec sheets of many other phones, the sensor is likely to be same one you find in Lumia 625.
Most of you will probably agree that Moto G doesn't take good photos. Meanwhile the optic is the best it should be well capable of better.
Issue at the moment is that there's TOO MUCH noise reduction, which can cause a very 'water-paint' feel to the pictures, and destroying any form of sharpness.
From my test with stock and many other camera apps (Lenovo, focal, a better cam, etc etc), while they help with the compression, focus, white-balance and metering etc. and can help the quality of the photos. They don't fix the sharpness/noise reduction issue with the camera. It seems like it's been hard-coded into the software for the camera.
Are there anyone out there who will be able to fix this?

The Motorola camera app was updated today, has this improved the noise reduction?
Nuthin' but a 'Moto G' thang

cption said:
Are there anyone out there who will be able to fix this?
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Google seems to be working on a completely overhauled Hardware Abstraction Layer for the cameras that will allow apps to tap more directly into the camera pipelines. They'll be able, for instance, to get RAW captures and and do their own custom demoisacing/debayering and the whole post- pipeline. That would probably fix any heavy-handed processing done by any of the OEMs.

AluKed said:
Google seems to be working on a completely overhauled Hardware Abstraction Layer for the cameras that will allow apps to tap more directly into the camera pipelines. They'll be able, for instance, to get RAW captures and and do their own custom demoisacing/debayering and the whole post- pipeline. That would probably fix any heavy-handed processing done by any of the OEMs.
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RAW just gives an uncompressed image, there's no real guarantee that no processing takes place..
I'm going to report my findings on the new moto camera update. From the look of it it's just a routine, general update that shouldn't make much difference.

bien irleeno
cption said:
RAW just gives an uncompressed image, there's no real guarantee that no processing takes place..
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Not really. RAW is much more than an uncompressed image, it's as close to the raw, unprocessed sensor output as possible. No demosaicing, no tone mapping/gamma, no conversion from (typically) 12 bits per pixel to 8 bits, no processing and no lossy compression. If any of this is done, then it isn't RAW.

For you which camera app is the best ?

el-marino said:
For you which camera app is the best ?
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camera awesome is amazing and vignette its very good try with this app's u can get a better pic from stock cam

I think the original Android app takes better photos
The only problem with this app is the HDR
I installed the original app 4.2, 4.3 and 4.4, none of them has the HDR
Any way to solve this?

I've just installed snap camera, I have to say it is streets ahead of stock moto cam.
Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

I wasn't able to post before/after comparison with the stock camera app as it updated itself. So far I'm not seeing any different image wise between the update.
I've done some comparison shots in between the cameras, and added in my Ativ S (GS3 WP8 alter-ego) as a bonus.
Snap Camera focus very well, and I was able to take good shots with my shaky hands. However, the blurring issue is very apparent with all camera apps..
N.B. The Focal photo was slightly blurred due to my shaky hands, sorry!

Just to clear it, you're talking about this paid app ?
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.marginz.snap&hl=en

SlashGear have posted an article on the Camera software update released by Motorola.
This update does a tiny bit to improve all areas of shooting with manual controls, and shows sign that Motorola isn’t going to let this device fall by the wayside at all, whatsoever.
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[SlashGear]

lost101 said:
SlashGear have posted an article on the Camera software update released by Motorola.
[SlashGear]
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I dunno Slashgear articles seems iffy...
Moto G ALREADY had the Exposure/Focal Ring tbh, seems they didnt notice or use it in their original review. This exposure/focus ring is the basis of their camera comparison it seems.

I did not find options to manual focus and exposure.

Psychoferno said:
I did not find options to manual focus and exposure.
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It's just the ring that you can drag around the screen to choose the point of focus and exposure. I'm sure that we (at least I did!) had this from the beginning on Moto G (maybe the X didn't and that's where the stories are coming from?) and the recent update was basically bug fixes for us.

Yes, the G Moto already had this function. Thanks for the clarification.

Kameo said:
Just to clear it, you're talking about this paid app ?
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.marginz.snap&hl=en
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Yes, I just used the trial for the comparison.
Note that XDA compresses the image so it's very hard to tell from the photos I posted.
But the Moto-G is absolutely no match for the camera on my Ativ-S/GS3. Not sure if it will fair better if the noise reduction issues been fixed.
But Snap Camera seem to do the best job out of the apps I've tried, for my shaky hand of course. Not compared the HDR mode yet but stock camera do that quite well.

any comparison between s3?^

t-bon3 said:
The Motorola camera app was updated today, has this improved the noise reduction?
Nuthin' but a 'Moto G' thang
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Camera apps rarely make any significant difference in quality, unless they start passing different parameters/settings to the camera HAL.
Usually, if you see major changes in camera performance, it's HAL changes, which require a system firmware update.

Entropy512 said:
Usually, if you see major changes in camera performance, it's HAL changes, which require a system firmware update.
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I'm guessing that we'll get the Camera HAL v3 with Kit Kat 4.5. I mean, that's the kind of feature that would justify a version bump. Hopefully the hardware will be compliant enough that it won't have to run in the Limited Semantics mode.

RAW Camera for N9005 Lollipop?

Some articles stated that with Android L, devices will receive the capability to save photos in RAW .dng format, providing a far superior photo quality for shutter bugs. I have looked through the stock sammy camera app, but no RAW, and I was unable to find another app on play store to do this. Is there any camera app you guys can suggest that has that format? Please help, I don't mind if I have to pay for the app just give me a link or something, please

posedatull said:
Some articles stated that with Android L, devices will receive the capability to save photos in RAW .dng format, providing a far superior photo quality for shutter bugs. I have looked through the stock sammy camera app, but no RAW, and I was unable to find another app on play store to do this. Is there any camera app you guys can suggest that has that format? Please help, I don't mind if I have to pay for the app just give me a link or something, please
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This might help.
It's a third party app from playstore Photo Mate

amk19 said:
This might help.
It's a third party app from playstore Photo Mate
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Thanks man, but that app just lets me modify RAW pictures made by other cameras and then copied to the phone. I was looking for what the L Camera is supposed to do for the Nexus 5 and6 devices. Actually take pictures in RAW format with my N9005

posedatull said:
Thanks man, but that app just lets me modify RAW pictures made by other cameras and then copied to the phone. I was looking for what the L Camera is supposed to do for the Nexus 5 and6 devices. Actually take pictures in RAW format with my N9005
Click to expand...
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Try this Camera FV-5

amk19 said:
Try this Camera FV-5
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Click to collapse
Bought it, tried, said our device doesn't support raw. Asked for refund

posedatull said:
Bought it, tried, said our device doesn't support raw. Asked for refund
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Oh. Okay. Sorry buddy.

RAW format isn't going to do much about the quality of the photographs on a mobile phone with a sensor this small.
The sensors in smartphones cameras are the lowest possible tier. Using a digital negative isn't going to improve that.
Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk 2

ShadowLea said:
RAW format isn't going to do much about the quality of the photographs on a mobile phone with a sensor this small.
The sensors in smartphones cameras are the lowest possible tier. Using a digital negative isn't going to improve that.
Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk 2
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That is simply not true. The ability to capture RAW images has immensely improved camera performance on other devices.

troy2062 said:
That is simply not true. The ability to capture RAW images has immensely improved camera performance on other devices.
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I sincerely hope you're joking.
Do you actually know, without looking it up first, what the RAW format is for?
It is a digital negative. It contains all the data the sensor is able to capture.
The resulting JPG's quality is entirely determined by the compression format used by the camera app.
Shooting in RAW allows you more freedom to tweak the image before turning it into a JPG. It does NOT improve the camera performance. It does not increase the sharpness, decrease the noise and reduce blurring.
Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk 2

troy2062 said:
That is simply not true. The ability to capture RAW images has immensely improved camera performance on other devices.
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I'm sorry but this is just wrong.
Sent from my SM-N900P using Tapatalk

ShadowLea said:
I sincerely hope you're joking.
Do you actually know, without looking it up first, what the RAW format is for?
It is a digital negative. It contains all the data the sensor is able to capture.
The resulting JPG's quality is entirely determined by the compression format used by the camera app.
Shooting in RAW allows you more freedom to tweak the image before turning it into a JPG. It does NOT improve the camera performance. It does not increase the sharpness, decrease the noise and reduce blurring.
Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk 2
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I am a photography enthusiast and I do not appreciate your condescending tone. The XDA community at large has become far too hostile for my liking in recent years.
For all practical purposes, it does improve camera performance. When capturing in RAW using the camera2 API, you gain full manual control over shutter speed and ISO, as well as the ability to bypass the camera module's automated image processing. The resulting DNG is completely free of automated correction and you will have significantly more dynamic range to work with.
Despite the small sensor size of smartphone cameras, shooting RAW still yields significant benefits.

troy2062 said:
The XDA community at large has become far too hostile for my liking in recent years.
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Wish I could agree with you on this more. XDA is floating with kids nowadays, some of them haven't even hit puberty yet

troy2062 said:
I am a photography enthusiast and I do not appreciate your condescending tone. The XDA community at large has become far too hostile for my liking in recent years.
For all practical purposes, it does improve camera performance. When capturing in RAW using the camera2 API, you gain full manual control over shutter speed and ISO, as well as the ability to bypass the camera module's automated image processing. The resulting DNG is completely free of automated correction and you will have significantly more dynamic range to work with.
Despite the small sensor size of smartphone cameras, shooting RAW still yields significant benefits.
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Click to collapse
I'm glad you're not another one of those people who just heard a word used on a site and thinks they know everything. There are too many of those around, and they are the reason so many of the senior members are hostile towards others.
Particularly where the topic concerns photography. Too many bloody Instagrammers who think they're professionals. The most hilarious ones are the ones who don't even own a DSLR, but think their phone's camera can do the same thing. Or those idiots who complain about the camera quality, and leave the settings on auto.
Most apps have ISO control, even the stock camera.
Isn't that what I just said? "The resulting DNG is completely free of automated correction and you will have significantly more dynamic range to work with." is the exact same thing as "Shooting in RAW allows you more freedom to tweak the image before turning it into a JPG."
RAW mode only improves the resulting JPG. It can't improve the basic image. The lightbleed, stained glass details and oilpainting effect is a result of the sensorsize, not the JPG compression. The compression amplifies the problem, but it doesn't cause it.
And if an image is valuable enough to spend good time on taking the perfect shot, then taking it with a phone is a waste. If you're going to use BULB mode, you'll need a stationary. If you're going to drag the stationary along, might as well bring your DSLR and do it properly.
Was that condescending? I don't know, social cues aren't my area of expertise. But if you thought it was, you should've seen our Photo-Storytelling professor back at uni. That man made everyone afraid to even speak if there was a chance that your answer wasn't 100% accurate. Best class ever.
devilsdouble said:
Wish I could agree with you on this more. XDA is floating with kids nowadays, some of them haven't even hit puberty yet
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I've seen 9 year olds act like they know everything and tell the professional developers how they should do their job.
I've seen a 15 year old attempt to tell Chainfire how Root works. *snicker*. Too bad that thread was deleted, it was pure comedy gold. :laugh:
The major problem is that many of the offended users treat XDA as a helpdesk. It's not. It's a developers website. People have a responsibility to Google before they come here to ask their questions. If they neglect that responsiblity, the community doesn't take it very well. It's like going onto a website for car modders and asking how to put gas in a car at a station.

I don't think Samsung did rewrite the Camera HAL and therefore no complete camera2 api support which is a very bad thing.
We don't get a lot of the goodies especially the performance improvement.
Currently there's a 1 second shutter lag on 3rd party apps comparing to stock Samsung camera.

ShadowLea said:
RAW format isn't going to do much about the quality of the photographs on a mobile phone with a sensor this small.
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Click to collapse
RAW format will allow you to develop better quality images than out-of-camera JPEGs.
In-phone postprocessing is limited by its no-so-great software and also processing power (it needs to be able to process a lot of pictures quickly). If you just take RAW files from the phone and run it through dedicated software (Lightroom, Aftershot Pro, Noise Ninja), I bet you'd get better images than what you OOC even without fine-tuning anything.
But the more importantly, it allows you to fine-tune a lot of stuff - fix white balance, exposition, find suitable contrast - besides creative control you will often get significantly better quality images.
ShadowLea said:
The sensors in smartphones cameras are the lowest possible tier. Using a digital negative isn't going to improve that.
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I used to take pictures with way worse cameras (like Canon A410) than camera on Note 3 and RAW often made a big difference. RAW is actually more useful on poor sensors (and/or poor post processors) where you need to squeeze the maximum from the picture. On the otherhand, e.g. my Fuji X100 has good enough (APS-C) sensor and very good JPEG engine that I very rarely feel the need to shoot RAW.

Personally I always shot in RAW on a dlsr as I always tweak my photos, the freedom to change tweak exposure/white balance has become a necessity. I can't stand processed jpegs anymore, especially when I don't know what the processing is really doing but I know it ain't doing a good job.
I got the Note 3 a few weeks back and have been wondering about RAW capability as it's something that it's important to me and others who want the extended freedom with their pictures. I have not yet jumped into Lollipop to test it out, but is the Camera2 API included in the lollipop roms available now? Is that API a lollipop standard? If so there's no reason our device shouldn't be able to shoot in RAW.

eddiee said:
RAW format will allow you to develop better quality images than out-of-camera JPEGs.
In-phone postprocessing is limited by its no-so-great software and also processing power (it needs to be able to process a lot of pictures quickly). If you just take RAW files from the phone and run it through dedicated software (Lightroom, Aftershot Pro, Noise Ninja), I bet you'd get better images than what you OOC even without fine-tuning anything.
But the more importantly, it allows you to fine-tune a lot of stuff - fix white balance, exposition, find suitable contrast - besides creative control you will often get significantly better quality images.
Click to expand...
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I know how RAW works. I'm a professional photographer, I never use anything other than RAW. Which has some downsides.. I'm seriously running out of storage space on my harddrives
You're forgetting one very important factor. Given the size of RAW files, you can take about 40 pictures before you run out of space on your device, less if you have a decent amount of apps. L fixes the tight security that prevented apps to write to the SD in 4.4, but even then the space limitations are.. obnoxious. 13MP should translate to about 20-25MB per picture. Sure there are 128GB MicroSD cards, but unless you keep that clear of any other data (I have the entire LOTR Extended trilogy on there, for example.) it's still going to be a limitation. The 128GB cards are also quite pricey. I use 128GB SDcards in my camera, and on an average day I have to switch around at least once because it's full. And that's empty cards. Phone cards have data on them.
I used to take pictures with way worse cameras (like Canon A410) than camera on Note 3 and RAW often made a big difference. RAW is actually more useful on poor sensors (and/or poor post processors) where you need to squeeze the maximum from the picture. On the otherhand, e.g. my Fuji X100 has good enough (APS-C) sensor and very good JPEG engine that I very rarely feel the need to shoot RAW.
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Evidently, as the A410 had dedicated camera hardware, as opposed to it just being an addition designed for random facebook pictures. And the JPEG conversion in 2005 was severely underdeveloped compared to modern day, and the hardware allows significantly more calculations. Even then the sensors in a modern-day cheap Compact camera are better than the ones in a smartphone, simply because those in smartphones are cut from the leftovers of the sensor plate.
Ah, a Fuji X100? It's one of the classic-style shell camera's, if I recall correctly. I played around with one a while ago, one of my colleagues is a hipster, so yea, he has one. :silly:
Funny little thing, pretty decent quality for something so small. It's not a system camera, though, so his arguments to convince me to get one were completely wasted. I'm a macro, landscape and architecture photographer; I need my different lenses.
My Canon EOS 70D can shoot in JPEG at ISO 6400 without noise. Doesn't mean I ever take it off the RAW+JPG setting. Even then I always edit my pictures in CameraRaw. JPG is good enough for preview, but I require PNG and TIFF for high-quality print. And shooting Macro and Landscape in JPG is simply a wasted effort. Those always require editing. So does architecture, because I'm too lazy to drag a technical camera along, so I have to do a lot of perspective correction. RAW is better suited for that.
There is one thing on which I do see the point of shooting in RAW with a smartphone. The lens is so utterly rubbish that the chromatic aberration is simply painful. Not to mention the overly obvious light flares if you try to shoot anything near a lightsource or white. It won't solve it, but at least you can tone it down a bit.
Still, I'd rather use my DSLR for those photographs. It also looks an awful lot less ridiculous than standing around with a smartphone taking pictures.

ShadowLea said:
You're forgetting one very important factor. Given the size of RAW files, you can take about 40 pictures before you run out of space on your device, less if you have a decent amount of apps. L fixes the tight security that prevented apps to write to the SD in 4.4, but even then the space limitations are.. obnoxious. 13MP should translate to about 20-25MB per picture.
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20-25 MB per RAW picture means 40-50 pictures per GB. Currently I have 9 GBs free on the phone and 21 GB on the card. That translates to about 1200-1500 pictures. That sounds quite OK.
Still, I don't plan to shoot exclusively RAW - there's no point in fiddling with RAW for simple point&shoot pictures. Personally I'd use RAW only when it's necessary - in challenging lighting conditions, important shots etc.
Storage won't be a problem for me.
ShadowLea said:
Evidently, as the A410 had dedicated camera hardware, as opposed to it just being an addition designed for random facebook pictures. And the JPEG conversion in 2005 was severely underdeveloped compared to modern day, and the hardware allows significantly more calculations. Even then the sensors in a modern-day cheap Compact camera are better than the ones in a smartphone, simply because those in smartphones are cut from the leftovers of the sensor plate.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
JPEG conversion is bad in a lot of cameras even today (although Samsung's JPEG engine seems to be one of the better ones, in smartphones). The point was that RAW is useful both for good and bad cameras (sensors).
ShadowLea said:
Still, I'd rather use my DSLR for those photographs. It also looks an awful lot less ridiculous than standing around with a smartphone taking pictures.
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Best camera is the one you have with you. DSLR is too big for me to drag around. That's why I bought Fuji - it's quite small and light while having very good IQ. Actually even the Fuji is too big and heavy (especially for the neck) on the longer hikes (30km) - sometimes I just leave it at home and go just with the phone. I eagerly await phone camera improvements (including RAW support) so I can leave my larger cameras at home.

eddiee said:
20-25 MB per RAW picture means 40-50 pictures per GB. Currently I have 9 GBs free on the phone and 21 GB on the card. That translates to about 1200-1500 pictures. That sounds quite OK.
Still, I don't plan to shoot exclusively RAW - there's no point in fiddling with RAW for simple point&shoot pictures. Personally I'd use RAW only when it's necessary - in challenging lighting conditions, important shots etc.
Storage won't be a problem for me.
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Click to collapse
You've got a lot more free space than me. I've got 1GB on the phone left, and 2GB on my MicroSD (Out of 128, yea... The disadvantage of 1080p series. >.<)
Oh I've seen people do it; shoot in RAW then put it on Instagram. :laugh:
JPEG conversion is bad in a lot of cameras even today (although Samsung's JPEG engine seems to be one of the better ones, in smartphones). The point was that RAW is useful both for good and bad cameras (sensors).
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Well yes. But it still can't fix the problems caused by the bad sensor. It can decrease them because JPG conversion aplifies them, but it can't fix them. RAW can't fix hardware faults. (Oh if only it could..)
Best camera is the one you have with you.
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I both agree and disagree. Any camera is better than no camera, true.
But I had an EOS 500D before this, and it simply made bad pictures. For memories and snapshots the quality matters little (And it may even add to the photo), but it had a similar problem as the smartphones: it was a low-tier model and had a cheap sensor. All the editing in RAW couldn't fix the data that simply wasn't collected, and it can't add detail that isn't there. The same issue applies to smartphones.
(And before anyone tries to, don't even think of throwing out "The quality of the photograph is determined by the photographer". I hate that saying, and it's only ever said by those who can't afford a decent camera. That saying applies to the quality of the content, not the image quality. Someone usually ends up using that argument in any photography discussion, so consider this a pre-emptive strike.)
DSLR is too big for me to drag around. That's why I bought Fuji - it's quite small and light while having very good IQ. Actually even the Fuji is too big and heavy (especially for the neck) on the longer hikes (30km) - sometimes I just leave it at home and go just with the phone. I eagerly await phone camera improvements (including RAW support) so I can leave my larger cameras at home.
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It can get a bit heavy, yes. It's why I always use a backpack. True, it's still about 30-40 kilos, but as a backpack that's easily manageable. I've tried taking photo's with my phone on my trips, but I always end up wanting my macro, telezoom or wideangle lens. But I'm the weird one who stands around taking photographs of a floral arrangement while everyone else is photographing the Colosseum, and who takes a macro photograph of the leg of the Eiffel Tower, but not the tower itself. So perhaps I'm a bad example of the average photographer. :laugh: :silly:

But I had an EOS 500D before this, and it simply made bad pictures. For memories and snapshots the quality matters little (And it may even add to the photo), but it had a similar problem as the smartphones: it was a low-tier model and had a cheap sensor. All the editing in RAW couldn't fix the data that simply wasn't collected, and it can't add detail that isn't there. The same issue applies to smartphones.
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When shooting raw, images should be taken with post processing in mind and exposures set to take the most amount of the important data whatever it may be. Thus a picture looking good or bad in camera is totally irrelevant. The 500D takes good pictures, it's no 5D mk3 but good enough for semi-pro depending on what kind of stuff is being shot with it. A good lens on a lowish tier camera goes a long way, much more so than a good sensor with a mediocre lens.

Alternative App that makes best quality photos

Hi there,
As everyone knows, default camera app of sony sucks. I have tried a lot of alternative applications. For me the best results is from Snap Camera with settings 20mpx, camera api2, jpeg quality Best, opengl2, auto scene auto whitebalance, auto flash. These settings allows me to take much sharper images tested on my small facial hair. BUT! Camera is very overheating, after few minutes (5-6 shots) i have started sony camera and it alerted that camera is too hot, so it shuts down.
Snap camera allows HDR in 20mpx also any scene, its not limited as sony-s camera
Also snap camera produced the best images on my old low quality mtk based phone. So i recommend it, its paid but as far i know it have trial version.
I will be happy if someone will tell how is satisfied with this app.
PS.: FV-5 is worse, for my eyes.

in the play store info, there is setting for ISO. but why is there non when i check in setting...?

ive taken some kick ass photos in good light/ low light / bad light with the stock app. IDK what everyone is on about. but to each their own =)

`Ghost` said:
ive taken some kick ass photos in good light/ low light / bad light with the stock app. IDK what everyone is on about. but to each their own =)
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In Auto mode or Manual?

Both.

Basically, when you unlock your boot loader, the great photo quality will be gone. If you have backed up your "TRIMM area" before unlocking it (where the DRM keys are stored), then you'll be able to get it back, by re-locking the BL, but this means you'll lose your ability to use costom ROMs, only modified stock ROMs are possible after that.
The reason for this is that Sony uses some pretty amazing software magic to get great pictures in low light (noise reduction algorithms) which aren't meant to be accessible for others to reverse engineer, so they lock them away with the DRM keys. So with a locked boot loader, the camera makes awesome pictures even in low light, with an unlocked BL, meh... (not so much any more)
Of course, these algorithms are only available to the Sony default camera app for the same reasons...

Have you tried this
It will let you have scene's and HDR in 20mp, also it has more ISO options.

I've used FV-5 from the start and imo it's a lot better for me then the stock app. I can't work with the stock app that has limited control
Sent from my D5803 using XDA Free mobile app

stock camera is the only one...'cause of manual iso... fv-5 has good auto but you can't force iso 100, 200 and so on

Recently I have the Z3 Compact therefore not yet tried everything, but the camera does not seem anywhere near what they sold me in reviews. The original camera seems poor choices, the automatic mode leaves much to be desired, especially in low light because when you have a lighthouse in front can not interpret well and properly handle white balance and contrast.
I was testing the Open Camera app and gives me better results than stock. The only thing I use it now for the stock camera is for timeshift and sometimes for panoramic shots.

I have almost forgot about this post, thanks for cleaning my bookmarks.
Thanks for everyone’s reply, I have figured out that another phones also uses that sensor and they make better pics, so probably problem is with sony's software developers who are doing a weak job. I am very addicted to zooming pictures and when I compare zoomed 5mpx downscale shot of lumia 1020 and 8 or 20mpx shot of Z3C, then shot of lumia is sharp and clear, full of details.... the shot of sony is like blurred and without details. So i think that they algorithm is wrong somewhere or they are compressing raw to too low quality and when jpeg is created then its final quality will be even worse regardless of 97% or 100% jpeg quality. Need to note that nokia's sensor is three times bigger in its physical size that captures the light.
But the video quality is epic i have never seen so good video quality from phone.
Currently i am waiting for availability of 5.1.1 in slovakia

Workaround to increase Camera Photo quality

I am aware that our Mix uses a 1/3.06" 16MP Omnivision Sensor with a Pixel size of the measly 1um. But the Huawei Mate 9 has a similar sized sensor (1/2.9" 12MP sensor with a pixel size of approx. 1.25um.) and shoots really great pics. Obviously Huawei may have used a latest generation Sony sensor with Leica's optics which will blow the Omnivision away. Even the cheapest Sony sensor would outperform an Omnivision any day.
My question is, will shooting images at a lower resolution like 12MP on the Mix give us better results? I'm not expecting Mate 9 like results as the phone's camera was never a priority when I bought this device. But would this help reduce noise or give us better results compared to shooting at 16MP? I am noticing lower noise when shooting at 13MP on Open camera compared to shooting at 16MP.
Does shooting at a lower resolution increase the Pixel size from 1um? Or is it strictly something to do with the sensor? Does the sensor behave the same either way and are we just getting cropped images when shooting at lower resolutions?
I've read in a few places that the sensor is fully utilized regardless but shooting at lower resolutions can reduce noise. If I can at least get half decent 12MP images compared to noisy unreliable 16MP ones, I wouldn't mind shooting at lower resolutions. Of course I am not expecting ground breaking image quality.
Some older Sony phones like the Xperia Z2 used to have a default mode which clicked images at 8MP even though the effective sensor resolution was 21MP. Sony claimed that the lower resolution gave batter images especially lesser noise. I am referring to something like this.
Hope someone can explain this.

@satishp did a search on dpreview.com
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/2995010
The 2nd reply sums it up pretty well.
The answer to your question is no, reducing the resolution will not increase your image quality. The sensor always takes full-resolution image. Reducing resolution is a post-processing function and is no different than reducing resolution on the computer. Note that there are a few cameras with special low-resolution modes that are supposed to improve either the image or performance in certain ways. But when you have these modes you know it because they’re selling features of the camera.
There is now a significant amount of information available publically demonstrating that image quality depends on sensor size and sensor efficiency only. The number of pixels doesn’t matter. When printed at the same print size, images from the same sized sensor exhibit the same amount of noise regardless of resolution.

Thorin78 said:
@satishp did a search on dpreview.com
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/2995010
The 2nd reply sums it up pretty well.
The answer to your question is no, reducing the resolution will not increase your image quality. The sensor always takes full-resolution image. Reducing resolution is a post-processing function and is no different than reducing resolution on the computer. Note that there are a few cameras with special low-resolution modes that are supposed to improve either the image or performance in certain ways. But when you have these modes you know it because they’re selling features of the camera.
There is now a significant amount of information available publically demonstrating that image quality depends on sensor size and sensor efficiency only. The number of pixels doesn’t matter. When printed at the same print size, images from the same sized sensor exhibit the same amount of noise regardless of resolution.
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Thanks for clearing this! So it may have been placebo that the images shot at 12MP seemed to be less noisy to me. Lol!
I use Open Camera which seems to produce brighter images compared to the stock camera. I'm sure these 3rd party apps aren't magically making the sensor capture more light compared to the stock app. I've noticed that these apps automatically crank up the display brightness to max as soon as they are launched. There may also be some real-time processing involved which makes the images appear brighter and slightly better compared to the stock app.
I am considering getting the Sony Alpha QX1 (with inter-changeable lenses) or the older QX100 which would make the Mix perfect! These lens style cameras attach to the phone and transfer images directly to the phone via NFC pairing. Just wondering whether the mix is too wide for the bracket on the lenses. The QX1 has the same APS-C sensor utilized on some of Sony's Alpha range and the QX100 has the 1" BSI sensor used on the RX100II. Only downside is that none of them can do 4K video.
Thanks again! Cheers!

satishp said:
I am considering getting the Sony Alpha QX1 (with inter-changeable lenses) or the older QX100 which would make the Mix perfect! These lens style cameras attach to the phone and transfer images directly to the phone via NFC pairing. Just wondering whether the mix is too wide for the bracket on the lenses. The QX1 has the same APS-C sensor utilized on some of Sony's Alpha range and the QX100 has the 1" BSI sensor used on the RX100II. Only downside is that none of them can do 4K video.
Thanks again! Cheers!
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You will need this - https://www.amazon.com/SPA-TA1-Tabl...UTF8&qid=1483946210&sr=8-2&keywords=qx+tablet
The smallest one should work perfectly with the phone. I had the QX-100 and it didn't fit the note 4 out of the box.

emann56 said:
You will need this - https://www.amazon.com/SPA-TA1-Tabl...UTF8&qid=1483946210&sr=8-2&keywords=qx+tablet
The smallest one should work perfectly with the phone. I had the QX-100 and it didn't fit the note 4 out of the box.
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Click to collapse
Seems to be quite expensive just for an attachment. If it didn't fit the Note 4, it most definitely won't fit the Mix. So I guess that attachment is a must and when you add the price of the QX1's body + Lens + the attachment, it doesn't seem to be worth it. Ofcourse, the images would blow away even the best of mobile cameras.
Only if it was priced right!

I have the QX-30, the tablet mount is a must unless you plan on not attaching it to the phone. It makes the overall portability not so great, you're probably better off just getting a full blown dedicated camera but the QX-1 might be good, just make sure to buy one of the lenses otherwise you can't do anything, the SELP1650 might be decent I think.
Also if you're thinking of getting the swiveling rotation mount, don't bother, it's not compatible with the tablet mount.

For those who haven't tried RAW capture yet, stock camera works perfectly fine after activating the camera2 api. Just thought I should mention that since it's not such an uncommon issue.

Camera
benziii said:
For those who haven't tried RAW capture yet, stock camera works perfectly fine after activating the camera2 api. Just thought I should mention that since it's not such an uncommon issue.
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How do you do that. please give us instructions on how to.

jaime4272 said:
How do you do that. please give us instructions on how to.
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Click to collapse
Add the line "persist.camera.HAL3.enabled=1" at the end of your build.prop, then reboot. It goes without saying you either need a build.prop editor or like me, just use the text editor that comes with Root explorer for example. Next get a camera app that supports RAW, like Open camera or Manual camera.
[Edit] Remember to mount as read/write when you are in system folder, or your changes won't stick. Our build.prop has two empty lines at the bottom, so if you have added something at an earlier time, make sure you have one empty line at the end.

benziii said:
For those who haven't tried RAW capture yet, stock camera works perfectly fine after activating the camera2 api. Just thought I should mention that since it's not such an uncommon issue.
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Only for my understanding
Does it only activate RAW mode or does it increase the picture quality for ordinary mode too?

vergilbt said:
Only for my understanding
Does it only activate RAW mode or does it increase the picture quality for ordinary mode too?
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There is more to it than just RAW. Read up on camera2 features and what an api is. But to answer your question, no, it does not increase quality.

Apps that support raw
benziii said:
There is more to it than just RAW. Read up on camera2 features and what an api is. But to answer your question, no, it does not increase quality.
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I downloaded camera FV-5 which support raw the option said that this phone does not support RAW, any idea?

jaime4272 said:
I downloaded camera FV-5 which support raw the option said that this phone does not support RAW, any idea?
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Even though I know FV-5 has been praised for years, I've never bought it. I'm not a big snapper so I've often been content with manual modes on the stock cameras. But since I have recently gotten RAW capture going, I've contemplated loosely on paying for either Manual camera or Camera FV-5. All I've tried on the Mix so far, is Manual camera's compatibility app (which checks out), and taken some RAW pics with Open camera.
I'm going to check out some more apps soon.
Considering it is required for RAW capture, I reckon you have a paid version? I quickly tried the free one, and see only one instance of compatibility (under general photo settings). But there is nothing there. Do you get the message when you change picture output?

There is an option on the paid version but it's grayed out because of incompatibility, but there is

you don't improve the noise performance by taking a smaller resolution, you do that by downsizing from a large image.
I think the best method is to use a good manual setting, shoot in raw and then edit in post processing.
however I think the images aren't that reliable

I cannot Open the dng file
---------- Post added at 05:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:18 AM ----------
Snapseed and Lightroom cannot parse the dng File ....Amy Help?

gorillalaci said:
I cannot Open the dng file
---------- Post added at 05:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:18 AM ----------
Snapseed and Lightroom cannot parse the dng File ....Amy Help?
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On my desktop I use UFRaw and Gimp / Photoshop. But I haven't gotten any mobile apps to open my RAW images either. Weird.

I know this is a few months old, but I think this app needs to be better known:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=troop.com.freedcam
Yes, it works with DNGs and can handle our Mix Camera sensor. And yes, it's 100% FREE.
Also, it comes from a XDA dev, so even more kudos for him!!

codymamak said:
I know this is a few months old, but I think this app needs to be better known:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=troop.com.freedcam
Yes, it works with DNGs and can handle our Mix Camera sensor. And yes, it's 100% FREE.
Also, it comes from a XDA dev, so even more kudos for him!!
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Installed it, but crashing when try to tap to focus.. Autofocus doesnt work it self

I have it working, but I'm using the LOS 14.1 build 20.5.17 from here on XDA, not MIUI. Sorry but I didn't test stock ROM before flashing.
Also, you can contact the dev at this thread here at XDA: https://forum.xda-developers.com/android/apps-games/camera-freedcam-4-0-3-t3115548
Maybe he can help out.

Photo quality

Say "cheese", then rate this thread to express how photos taken with the Nokia 9 PureView come out. A higher rating indicates that photos offer rich color (without over-saturating), sharp detail (with all subjects in-focus), and appropriate exposure (with even lighting).
Then, drop a comment if you have anything to add!

I've been using the light L16 for a long while. I assume it would work the same. Images on the Pure View may render a bit slow "on device" , since it dosent have to be exported into lights Lumen software. I'll see once mines arrives though.

lsmith1981 said:
I've been using the light L16 for a long while. I assume it would work the same. Images on the Pure View may render a bit slow "on device" , since it dosent have to be exported into lights Lumen software. I'll see once mines arrives though.
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Yes, with all the sensor data on it does take a while to merge all the image data. The amount of time varies based on the scene and detail.

Harfainx said:
Yes, with all the sensor data on
it does take a while to merge all the image data. The amount of time varies based on the scene and detail.
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It's instant surprisingly, their software team has done a excellent job on that part. Even though it uses the SD820 and their custom ASIC together, everything works just fine. I'm sure with the SD845 and the ASIC chip, things would work much better on that device.
https://light.co/technology

lsmith1981 said:
It's instant surprisingly, their software team has done a excellent job on that part. Even though it uses the SD820 and their custom ASIC together, everything works just fine. I'm sure with the SD845 and the ASIC chip, things would work much better on that device.
https://light.co/technology
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I meant it takes a while on the Nokia 9 Pureview. I've had everywhere from about 4 seconds, up to 25ish seconds to process a photo.

As I'm eager to get my hands on this device mainly for the capabilities of the camera, is it possible for some of the lucky early owners to share a few RAW files.
At least two people here have it, and we don't have one real-life sample to check out.
I really can't believe there are no real and meaningful reviews for this phone...

here is a sample

bo6o said:
As I'm eager to get my hands on this device mainly for the capabilities of the camera, is it possible for some of the lucky early owners to share a few RAW files.
At least two people here have it, and we don't have one real-life sample to check out.
I really can't believe there are no real and meaningful reviews for this phone...
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Here's three in a wetransfer link. Too big to post DNGs on here. These have quite a bit of good depth data and were fun to edit. Didn't share my edits in this grouping though.
https://we.tl/b-AHQfp0iCcp

Thanks man, can I reuse the link and/or unedited exported with LR images on other forums, to shutdown some huawei fans

I'm amazed by the details, it is really good. Could you share some b/w dng's please? Huawei mate 9 with only one bw sensor took amazing shots , so I'm really curious at what the Nokia 9 can do

More dng samples please
Guys, can you please post more dng samples? outdoors for base iso, indoors for high iso? When I developed the dngs posted here, they are all quite great actually, even at iso 1600. That's the flowers shot. The same flower shot in jpg is quite oversharpened and noisy, with ugly artefacts, dark shadows and blown out highlights that are not present in the jpg. The subway shot is iso 1400, basically noise free. The doughnut shot is iso 208 and man, it is absolutely amazing in terms of both detail and noise. I think the bad quality you see in jpgs is simply bad processing by the nokia camera app. I think that this hardware is capable of great photos. Wondering if SNAP camera HDR app would work on this. Thanks!

mesicm said:
Guys, can you please post more dng samples? outdoors for base iso, indoors for high iso? When I developed the dngs posted here, they are all quite great actually, even at iso 1600. That's the flowers shot. The same flower shot in jpg is quite oversharpened and noisy, with ugly artefacts, dark shadows and blown out highlights that are not present in the jpg. The subway shot is iso 1400, basically noise free. The doughnut shot is iso 208 and man, it is absolutely amazing in terms of both detail and noise. I think the bad quality you see in jpgs is simply bad processing by the nokia camera app. I think that this hardware is capable of great photos. Wondering if SNAP camera HDR app would work on this. Thanks!
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I will try to add some tomorrow. Did some compare shots with the xz3 and a rx100 vi
https://we.tl/t-N9cRshSrlb
If people are interested I can do a bit more in depth comparison

I think the shadow recovery is amazing, almost no noise increase, and this on a phone.
1st photo supplied by @phunkyp , increased the brightness of the dark background in a raw editor.
But i think the general sharpness isn't the best compared with well lit single sensor photos, what do you think? For example in the samples of @stefanve those details in the trees just look strange somehow. But there is definatly a lot to play with in the editor (2nd photo by him). Yes its a bit much.

Here are a couple of extra test shots. 3 files per scene. DNG, JPG from the default camera app and one from the LR camera. The LR shot should be using only one of the 5 camera's so we can see the difference between one vs 5 camera's
https://we.tl/t-deZimhn8Sz
Personally I don't think that the camera has on point focus (maybe that is why they use very aggressive sharpening in de jpegs) but overall I think it is really good for a phone, lots of detail and light. This is one of the view phones (that I used) that gives me usable photo's the other one being the Lumia 950 XL and the Mate 9 (but only in b&w)

Is Lightroom not capable to get raw from the Nokia cam? That would be interesting to compare, Lightroom single Cam dng vs Lightroom HDR dng vs Nokia 5 cam dng.

No sadly , it is not possible to save the raw data with de LR camera app.

edit wrong post.

Here are some pictures with Nokia 9. All photos was taken with Auto mode and someone with bokeh or monochrome with raw. I'm not a professional of photography
https://photos.app.goo.gl/56KAUxN8mWk78qfL6
Enviado desde mi MI 5s mediante Tapatalk

I took a few pictures and I am not a professional photographer either, but hope it will help you. Nice weekend
https://photos.app.goo.gl/kgqrWZcYMxRYKGxm9
I will be free from work tomorrow. Then I go outside with the children and take pictures with this phone. I will then place them in the same folder.

Love the monochrome mode.