Database Users

Bluez? PA?

I've got a question... Any plans to implement the new Android-friendly Bluez stack recently rolled out? Seems it would fit with your open-source goals pretty nicely, while also providing enhanced functionality over the status quo...
Sometime last year there were several reports of a successful PulseAudio port as well. As I recall, it offered performance and feature enhancements, though the final word I've seen on the port was a sort of an open-source compromise because the port still required interaction with the closed-source HAL.
Anyway, it seems to me that successful inlines of the above projects might even be incorporated at least in part upstream, thereby setting you apart in your contributions, your feature set, and helping to offload some of the work for both sides.
Also, I want those things.
-Mike

mikeserv said:
I've got a question... Any plans to implement the new Android-friendly Bluez stack recently rolled out? Seems it would fit with your open-source goals pretty nicely, while also providing enhanced functionality over the status quo...
Sometime last year there were several reports of a successful PulseAudio port as well. As I recall, it offered performance and feature enhancements, though the final word I've seen on the port was a sort of an open-source compromise because the port still required interaction with the closed-source HAL.
Anyway, it seems to me that successful inlines of the above projects might even be incorporated at least in part upstream, thereby setting you apart in your contributions, your feature set, and helping to offload some of the work for both sides.
Also, I want those things.
-Mike
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, the existing Android bluetooth stack is also open source, so the question would be what this "new" BlueZ stack (which isn't new, Android used BlueZ for years and switched away with 4.1 or 4.2, can't remember...) offers.
For audio - We have open HALs for a lot of devices, and for those devices we don't have an open HAL for, pulseaudio won't really help.

Entropy512 said:
Well, the existing Android bluetooth stack is also open source, so the question would be what this "new" BlueZ stack (which isn't new, Android used BlueZ for years and switched away with 4.1 or 4.2, can't remember...) offers.
For audio - We have open HALs for a lot of devices, and for those devices we don't have an open HAL for, pulseaudio won't really help.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But the existing Bluetooth stack is Android specific, whereas Bluez is a standard Linux component. It's also just recently made itself more Android friendly and (arguably) provides a better documented, more standardized interface.The same can be said of PulseAudio versus Android's sound daemon; implementing either or both would provide for more ease of interoperability between Android and other Linux devices, diminish Android fragmentation, and relieve some of the strain imposed by redundant development. What's more, I think both of these goals are probably largely achievable, but I was just asking.
Also, I want those things.
-Mike

mikeserv said:
But the existing Bluetooth stack is Android specific, whereas Bluez is a standard Linux component. It's also just recently made itself more Android friendly and (arguably) provides a better documented, more standardized interface.The same can be said of PulseAudio versus Android's sound daemon; implementing either or both would provide for more ease of interoperability between Android and other Linux devices, diminish Android fragmentation, and relieve some of the strain imposed by redundant development. What's more, I think both of these goals are probably largely achievable, but I was just asking.
Also, I want those things.
-Mike
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, BlueZ was the default Android stack for quite some time - it was dropped for whatever reason. So not sure why they need to make it more "android friendly" when it was part of Android for a few years.
As to PulseAudio - it's a consistent bane of my existence on the desktop, and is probably overkill for mobile.
Of course, if you want to take a crack at integrating them and actually find that they do have tangible benefits, give it a try!

Entropy512 said:
Well, BlueZ was the default Android stack for quite some time - it was dropped for whatever reason. So not sure why they need to make it more "android friendly" when it was part of Android for a few years.
As to PulseAudio - it's a consistent bane of my existence on the desktop, and is probably overkill for mobile.
Of course, if you want to take a crack at integrating them and actually find that they do have tangible benefits, give it a try!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wow. Strong words. You consider PulseAudio an existential bane, huh? Can I ask what sound daemon you use instead? I suppose it's possible you do without. Though it seems OSS is entirely deprecated, ALSA can still provide minimal functionality without a user-space management daemon if necessary, but without some extensive and, at least to me, seemingly esoteric initial configurations, good luck handling even a lasting volume adjustment without root access (or be in the "sound' group, I suppose), and should you have occasion to simultaneously offer two applications sound privileges... Sorry, grinding my teeth again.
Anyway, I didn't much like PA at first either, but I wanna say my first encounter with it was Ubuntu 7.10 or so, or thereabouts. I've since adopted the greener pastures offerred by several other distributions, less brown anyway, but PulseAudio is a fairly static component of my sound system as configured by default by distro maintainers no matter where I wander. Even on systems I build up myself from very little, when PulseAudio is included it tends to be one the things I have to consider least as trouble goes. The plugin support is very extensive these days as well.
When PulseAudio is combined with Bluez for instance, it can emulate almost all of the headset profiles, to include a telecommunications headset, and can easily record from this stream or any other because every one of PA's sources can be easily multiplexed. It's fun, and very powerful. PA can do on cheap or even no dedicated hardware at all what Airplay only aspires to. And these days, it even makes it easy. It's a true sound server, and while it can be utilized simply enough with Android satellite clients if you set it to emulate Airplay, to serve a multi/unicast, and/or to emulate the DLNA protocol, even this impressive scope of functionality is much diminished when compared to two PA servers working in concert.
Other desktop alternatives do exist, of course. There's Jack, designed to provide low-latency, realtime audio rendering, but these days it seems it too seems to operate best, and is most often configured to do so by default, in conjunction with a PA daemon. And MPD of course, which I confess I have much interest in, but very little other incentive otherwise to actually try for myself. I don't actually known what it's capable of. Perhaps you do? I wonder, is it just, as is eponymously implied, a music player daemon? Or can it actually be extended to do the kinds of things I've come to expect of PA as hinted at above? I really should find out.
Anyway, if you haven't had a look at this, it might interest you: http://arunraghavan.net/2012/01/pulseaudio-vs-audioflinger-fight/
The author takes care to provide many impressive benchmarking results as proof of the worth of his efforts. If that sparks your interest, you'll find the Android port homepage here: http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/PulseAudio/Ports/Android/.
And try to remember that PulseAudio is a more mature and proven project than is Android itself, much less SoundFlinger, and each of these three could be said to have experienced some rather rocky starts.
As for the Bluez project being recently dropped from Android and its even more recent Android-focused development, I believe these things are likely just as related as they appear to be. I would have to dig deeper than scanning a few kernel changelogs to be sure, but as I understand it for about a year or two, Bluez has been undergoing a codebase overhaul. I expect that in such a scenario the Linux kernel's default Bluetooth stack would have to focus initial efforts on the Linux kernel's core x86 support, and especially providing ARM support would prove difficult due to its lack of a default firmware interface and handling the myriad hardware access mechanisms might just have been too much at the time. Again, these are my assumptions, but what has definitely happened recently is a concerted effort at full Android support. If my assumptions are correct, then probably the Bluez project just got caught up is all. In any case, the functionality Bluez provides, especially where networking transparency is concerned, is definitely superior. Find out for yourself if you'd like to know.
Surely I'll find out for myself soon, as I guess i'll be diving in after all. Never built Android from source before, which doesn't make much sense as I've had nothing but Android devices since my G1, every one of which, up to and including the Dream, was rooted and flashed with at least a replacement recovery pretty much on day one. I guess better late than never, though.
Back soon, I expect! Best wishes!
-Mike

I still use it because I really don't want to spend all the time ripping it out and replacing it with something else on my Ubuntu machines, but it consistently fails to operate properly on nearly every machine I have. It's way too complex and the end result is that it breaks all the time.
That said, because of my experiences with it, I will never personally put any effort into putting it into more places. It is in too many already.

*edit of this mistakenly resulted in double-post below*

Entropy512 said:
I still use it because I really don't want to spend all the time ripping it out and replacing it with something else on my Ubuntu machines, but it consistently fails to operate properly on nearly every machine I have. It's way too complex and the end result is that it breaks all the time.
That said, because of my experiences with it, I will never personally put any effort into putting it into more places. It is in too many already.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Maybe that's true, but if you asked me I'd probably lean the other way and say instead that Ubuntu is in too many places. Honestly, PA is really not complicated if you consider it a suite of core sound apps as opposed to a single, cohesive application. Probably my biggest gripe with Ubuntu's interfaces is that they often do the opposite, which is of course contrary to Unix principles, and in the process they tend to sort of opaque over simple and accessible modular designs.
I won't attempt to argue that PulseAudio is simple by design, as we both know I'd be certain to lose that argument, but it does offer a few lesser known interfaces you might find interesting. For instance, one of my favorite little tools is pacat. This does exactly what it sounds like; point it at one or more of PA's sources and it will concatenate their raw audio output into stdout at which point you are free to pipeline it as you would any other stream. Imagine you took pacat, perhaps also lz4, nc, and another little pipe-friendly PA tool called paplay directed at a PA sync on its system rather than a source, and combined them all into a pipeline. I hope in this you might begin to see some of PA's merits that perhaps you've missed before.
Also, there is pacmd, which is not nearly as straightforward as those others I've mentioned, but is far more capable and very well documented. It can do anything PA can do, really, and is fully scriptable.
I don't know which versions of Ubuntu you use, but those not on rolling releases may not yet have caught up to the PA update that implemented a PulseAudio-module-specific udev adaptation. Newer PA versions now pretty much auto-configure audio modules in the same way early user-space handles kernel-module loading. It's kinda cool, and almost an entirely hands-off process.
Anyway, I'm through proselytizing. I just thought I'd mention these things because they're the bits that I use when I want to do something with it.
EDIT:
Entropy512 said:
...because of my experiences with it, I will never personally put any effort into putting it into more places...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I looked again and noticed this. While I fully understand where you're coming from here, I thought I heard some French kid on YouTube say that this was not the sort of response that should be expected for OmniRom feature requests. He described a sort of democratically driven road map, and specifically he said that if a feature request was well enough supported by the users, then the developers would implement it even if they did not agree it should be done. Has this policy changed?
Of course I realize that youtube guy was probably talking about majority rule as opposed to a well-argued request, and that I'm only one person, but above you say you will never do this thing, without making any allowances for the possibility of a vote or poll or similar.
Like I say, I fully understand your position on this, as I, of course, do not intend to devote my own efforts to something like further Android fragmentation for instance, vote or no vote. I just wish to know what to expect here, and if maybe I missed something.
-Mike

Everyone on the project are volunteers. Time is a limited resource, and we tend to prefer working on things we enjoy since we're not getting paid for it.
There's a big difference between "I have no interest whatsoever in working on this myself" and "I hate this so much I will mercilessly -2 it without any discussion". The latter is what I've promised never to do.
If someone's going to implement a feature, I'm OK with that as long as it doesn't have significant negative impacts (which PA would likely have, but I'll give it the benefit of the doubt...), I'll even give them some tips/assistance.
However, given the pain and suffering I went through with the yamahell audio HAL, touching audio again if I don't have to is dead last on my priorities list.
Looking at your link - it seems like nearly any advantage PA might have would only be seen by commandline clients - All apps would have to be presented with something that is "audioflinger-like" which didn't offer the extra features offered to clients. Also, PA claims improved power consumption - but they actually likely do not support LPA or tunnel mode.
To me it looks like PA offers a huge integration effort for little to no actual benefit.
Also, that article was written in January 2012 - I can tell you for certain that Google made MAJOR changes to the audio setup with Jellybean in mid-2012 including the ability to select buffer configurations that are use-case-dependent - https://github.com/omnirom/android_...210153d8f19a0ca825b33f2282b9ae071c6ec#diff-11

Entropy512 said:
Everyone on the project are volunteers. Time is a limited resource, and we tend to prefer working on things we enjoy since we're not getting paid for it.
There's a big difference between "I have no interest whatsoever in working on this myself" and "I hate this so much I will mercilessly -2 it without any discussion". The latter is what I've promised never to do.
If someone's going to implement a feature, I'm OK with that as long as it doesn't have significant negative impacts (which PA would likely have, but I'll give it the benefit of the doubt...), I'll even give them some tips/assistance.
However, given the pain and suffering I went through with the yamahell audio HAL, touching audio again if I don't have to is dead last on my priorities list.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wow, man! Thanks very much indeed for replying with honesty and humility. I'm very pleased that I didn't, or at least I hope I did not. Even if you had said otherwise I would have fully understood, of course, but as it is, I'm also very impressed. I like discussion. Thanks, man.
Two questions: what's yamahell? And, because you say you've worked with it, can you tell me about AudioFlinger or whatever it is and maybe why the status quo is desirable? I thought it was a problem. I'm asking these things for my own edification and because I think I'm gonna try something to do with a PA replacement.
While I agree PA may be overkill, I really don't believe pulse has to be applied monolithically, you know? It's already designed to work with modules, so maybe a subset would be sufficient. Clients only communicate with libpulse.so for the most part, for example. And for the past few months (on an upstream system) PA and Bz have been working really well together. So I'll try it, maybe, after you tell your horror stories and I can judge for myself.
-Mike
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Entropy512 said:
Looking at your link - it seems like nearly any advantage PA might have would only be seen by commandline clients...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I assume you mean the first one, the blog on the initial port? Well, I believe that may have changed since then. The actual port homepage at freedesktop.org (the second link I provided) says this:
Code:
...[T]ested on Samsung/Google Galaxy Nexus as ... reference implementation... [P]ort fairly straight-forward for ... devices with ALSA support.
Various bits of functionality are available, and this is a moving target. The following are tested at the time of writing this section:
Audio playback for most apps using native Android APIs
Volume control
Switching of outputs depending on the device plugged in (headphones, headset)
To Be Done
The following pieces are either partially or not at all implemented
Audio playback API completeness: infrequently-used bits of the API (loops, markers, etc.) are not implemented
***BIG ONE*** Calls: this is work-in-progress, but needs to be cleaned and merged
Policy: initial implementations of volumes and port switching are done. There are probably a lot of bits of policy that still need to be implemented for us to have feature/bug-parity with standard Android.
Audio record API: can be implemented fairly easily like the playback API was
***NOT CLEAR ON THIS*** Audio effects API (we don't support this in PulseAudio at the moment)
Entropy512 said:
Also, PA claims improved power consumption - but they actually likely do not support LPA or tunnel mode.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Something tells me this is a statement I should be able to fully comprehend before getting neck deep...
Entropy512 said:
To me it looks like PA offers a huge integration effort for little to no actual benefit.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It doesn't look so huge to me, as much is already done, I think. But then I've to hear your horror stories so I will reserve judgement.
Entropy512 said:
Also, that article was written in January 2012 - I can tell you for certain that Google made MAJOR changes to the audio setup with Jellybean in mid-2012 including the ability to select buffer configurations that are use-case-dependent - https://github.com/omnirom/android_...210153d8f19a0ca825b33f2282b9ae071c6ec#diff-11
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, that article was written then, but the freedesktop.org homepage was created March of this year. I suspect some changes have accumulated along the way, and because PA is an actively developed high-profile application hosted and backed by RedHat, I expect that website landing page would be removed soon after it became irrelevant. I will, of course, reach out to the maintainers at that end as well for advice.
But... that's kind of the point... less redundancy, you know? Less fragmentation? No need for separate groups for thisnkind of stuff. I just thought that was inline with omni ideals. Is there another way that you know of that could as easily bring a like convergence of functionality with other Linux systems? I just wanted to effect something along those lines and I thought omni sounded like a place worth starting.
Also, I want those things.
-Mike
P.S. This is the git repo described in the .XML repo definition for the PA build-code at freedesktop.org: http://cgit.collabora.com/git/
You can see the android specific PA packages are being worked on, and very recently. Also, ALSA is seeing somewhat recent dev work as well.
EDIT: This may not even be quite as difficult as i initially assumed.You can also see at the following git repo that a commit was made to master referencing 'mako' 5 weeks ago.
http://cgit.collabora.com/git/android/platform/external/collabora/pulseaudio-android.git/

yamahell - the hell that was working with the Yamaha MC1N2 codec seen on many Galaxy S2 family devices.
Poorly documented, kernel code written by a member of a primitive tribe with no concept of zero, Samsung's blob HALs doing all sorts of unpredictable crap requiring workaorunds and hacks...
One of the things that the Android audio subsystem has (overall) great support for is hardware accelerated decoding of compressed audio. LPA and tunnel mode are both methods for doing hardware accelerated audio decoding even when the host CPU is asleep.
The closest analog to this in the PC world would really be AC3 passthrough to an external decoder - which happens to be where 90% of my hatred of PulseAudio comes from. Its usual response to AC3 passthrough switching on/off is to screw up the audio codec and do weird stuff like pass AC3 through but not set the "this is a bitstream and not raw audio" bit, or send raw audio when setting the "this is a compressed bitstream" bit.

Entropy512 said:
...no concept of zero...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
....should I?
Entropy512 said:
One of the things that the Android audio subsystem has (overall) great support for is hardware accelerated decoding of compressed audio. LPA and tunnel mode are both methods for doing hardware accelerated audio decoding even when the host CPU is asleep.
The closest analog to this in the PC world would really be AC3 passthrough to an external decoder - which happens to be where 90% of my hatred of PulseAudio comes from. Its usual response to AC3 passthrough switching on/off is to screw up the audio codec and do weird stuff like pass AC3 through but not set the "this is a bitstream and not raw audio" bit, or send raw audio when setting the "this is a compressed bitstream" bit.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This makes very good sense. While I think the PA 4.0 changeligs from July or so may acknowledge this lack they also seem to indicate it's been addressed. Would you mind looking? Not positive I'm reading it right.
-Mike

My Z4 Tablet Pros and Cons

This might help people eyeing the Z4 Tablet, but are unsure of what positives and negatives there are. Of course, this is highly subjective, but this is my list. It's influenced by my personal competing choices which were the Samsung Galaxy Tab S2 and the Google Pixel C. I'm happy I chose the Sony Xperia Z4 Tablet.
Pros:
Fast SoC (Qualcomm Snapdragon 810)
This is Qualcomm's 2015 flagship SoC and from what I've experienced it's really fast. Android flies. It also runs 64-bit, which it should anyway, but for example Samsung's Tab S2 doesn't. I don't know about the graphical performance as I don't really play games.
'Compatible' SoC (Qualcomm Snapdragon 810)
This opens up the way for optimized-for-specific-SoC apps (like RSBrowser, which is Snapdragon-optimized and significantly faster than stock Chrome/Chromium) and CyanogenMod support, that need documentation/drivers. For example, Samsung's (faster) Exynos SoC's are a black box for developers, which makes things like this very hard and has the result of devs abandoning it.
Big internal storage (32GB)
32GB is plenty of storage for apps and a reasonable amount of media. But that can be stored on the microSD.
microSD capability (up to 128GB)
This is a major benefit for a media consumption device like this, which many devices don't have.
Good multitasking
I could have mentioned 3GB RAM, but that doesn't tell the whole story. Multitasking on the Z4 is pretty darn good. It swtiches quickly and is generally very snappy. My Samsung Galaxy S6 with 3GB RAM has pretty bad RAM management in comparison. I'm still trying to find a custom kernel for it that keeps the phone snappy after 2 days.
Huge screen solution, high ppi on a big screen
2560x1600, 299ppi. On a big 10.1 inch screen. This is wonderful.
16:10 aspect ratio screen
Which is good for widescreen content like movies and dSLR photo's. 16:10 also beats 16:9 for me because of the added screen height.
Screen has natural, accurate colors
Very subjective, but compared to several other screens I've found this one to be superior.
Front facing stereo speakers
A rare thing among Android devices. Good design choice.
Lightweight (~390gr), thin
It's pleasantly light to hold.
NFC, notification LED, GPS, vibration motor
These features are often overlooked, but are important to me. I use NFC for LastPass, the (multicolor!) LED with LightFlow to see what exactly is asking my attention when in standby, vibration to still be notified when I want the tablet to be silent and GPS for the occasional navigation need or social app check-in.
Qualcomm Quick Charge 2.0
Another nice bonus, which isn't mentioned much. Quick Charge makes a major difference to charging speed. Needs a compatible charger though.
Big battery (6000mAh)
Can't yet say battery life is amazing, because I'm using it a lot and crank the screen brightness up quite high so don't know what to expect. Reviewers seem to agree it's great though.
Bootloader can be unlocked (so the road is open for rooting)
No waiting for an exploit if you're OK with going this route. Just follow Sony's instructions and you'll have root in no time.
Marshmallow announced
Should come January '16 I heard, but these things always get delayed :| At least it's coming.
AOSP commitment by Sony
Sony's Open Device Program is nice and all, but their sources are a bit troublesome and don't seem to produce functional ROMs. Still, Sony's stance on it might bode well for future things.
Water-/dustproof
I don't care much myself, but it's a nice bonus. At least it takes some worries away (dropping liquids on it, no fear for dust particles between the screen and the glass).
Keyboard dock option
Nice for when you want to use a physical keyboard that is fully compatible and is also attachable. I use a 3rd party BT keyboard, but I'm constantly fighting with fixing incompatible button mapping stuff.
Important root-specific things that work
These things are not guaranteed to work or be available on any rooted device, and are pretty major in adding possibilities, so I consider them pros to be working on the Z4T:
Xposed Framework
For most people anyway (Some are having issues). This is a thing to be happy about, because if it didn't, chances are it wouldn't be fixed anytime soon because of the small user/dev base. Xposed opens up many possibilities which really enhance a device. To me it's a selling point.
Native KCAL support
Another Qualcomm exclusive. I believe this is actually fully present on the stock ROM, but not fully controllable (limited to RGB in the Settings menu). KCAL support enables you to tweak various image parameters, like RGB, saturation and contrast with a tool like Color Control or Kernel Adiutor. It's pretty great and you don't see it often.
Cons:
SoC might overheat in extreme circumstances
Haven't had any problems myself, and I stress the tablet pretty hard, but I've read some reports about issues. At least of a guy bringing the tablet to the beach. It's mostly just people saying it's fine, even with heavy usage.
Speakers are lacking in bass
No surprise, but it's still a letdown.
Bad low-light camera performance, no flash
Picture quality in low light is disturbingly bad. Having no flash makes this unusable in those situations. Not a big deal for me personally, I don't take pics with a tablet.
Screen isn't that bright
Compared to several others, the screen isn't that bright and needs to be cranked up pretty much, even indoors. Outdoors, this is a problem. The big screen reflectiveness doesn't help either. Indoors it fine, it just that the needed high brightness level eats battery.
Screen lacks deep blacks
This is compared to (S)AMOLED, specifically. Those screen blacks are amazing and darker colors are also good for battery on those screens. IPS screens just don't have that. Using dark themes won't help battery life on the Z4T, it may even be worse with them.
Stock charger isn't Quick Charge 2.0
Come on, Sony.
No hardware navigation buttons
This is a real PITA for me because this requires Android's soft keys / navigation bar which take up valuable screen space. This is especially problematic in landscape mode on this 16:10 ratio in which you'll want every screen height you can get. Fortunately, this can be overcome by tools like GMD Full Screen Immersive Mode (with full screen keyboard typing restrictions so you'll have to switch back to type :S) combined with All in One Gestures, both of which don't reqquire root. Better yet is a build.prop edit that declares to Android the tablet has hardware buttons, removing the soft keys entirely, while keeping the ability to type anywhere. I navigate using All in One Gestures, because GMD GestureControl sometimes stops working. Which isn't very nice when you don't have navigation keys
No user-land root exploit (yet)
Because of this, you'll need to unlock the bootloader to gain root access. Which will destroy your TA partition, which will in turn remove Sony-proprietary functions. Which I personally don't use and don't see much use for anyway. Also, unlocked bootloader can't be undone without Sony noticing, so as a non-EU citizen you'll possibly have warranty issues.
Small user/dev community
Not many people own a Z4 Tablet (bad availability in the US and it's expensive) and because of this, there's next to no development for it. Luckily, we have @AndroPlus who's made a custom kernel and ported TWRP (which unfortunately has a bug that keeps us from restoring the system partition from a backup). @DHGE worked on root, which made it possible in the end I think. Still, custom ROMs would be nice. Also, if you run into device-specific problems, there's not many others that can help, because you're either the only one or one of very few who have that problem.
It's expensive
The price is very high and a bit hard to justify.
What I miss:
Wireless charging
This is sooo convenient. It also spares the precious MicroUSB port, which is used for charging, data-transfer, USB-OTG and adb/fastboot. If it breaks, you're done.
Removable battery
Batteries do not have eternal life, so eventually it will be completely dead. Which will render the tablet dead as well.
Any thoughts, questions, additions or critique is welcome.

jelbo said:
[*]Small user/dev community
Not many people own a Z4 Tablet (bad availability in the US and it's expensive) and because of this, there's next to no development for it. Luckily, we have @AndroPlus who's made a custom kernel and ported TWRP (which unfortunately had a bug that keeps us from restoring the system partition from a backup). @DHGE worked on root, which made it possible in the end I think. Still, custom ROMs would be nice. Also, if you run into device-specific problems, there's not many others that can help, because you're either the only one or one of very few that have that problem.
.
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Click to collapse
Hello jelbo. Let's discuss about it. First of all, our tablet is not alone with some sort of problem. z3+ and z5 devices are the same story. I don't really understand how can we have aosp sources but not to have its rom. So what the problem, some building problem, or is it true that aosp roms works without working sensors? People give different feedback. Did you try some aosp rom? I just want to cook aosp rom in ubuntu.

alex009988 said:
Hello jelbo. Let's discuss about it. First of all, our tablet is not alone with some sort of problem. z3+ and z5 devices are the same story.
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Click to collapse
Yes, they're similar. Which actually makes me think about a positive point as development for those devices can also benefit Z4T owners. For example @[NUT]'s efforts may eventually reach us, or when an Xperia user-land exploit is found, it will likely be shared among different devices.
I don't really understand how can we have aosp sources but not to have its rom. So what the problem, some building problem, or is it true that aosp roms works without working sensors? People give different feedback. Did you try some aosp rom? I just want to cook aosp rom in ubuntu.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm not too sure about the reasons, but what I've seen is that 1) the Sony sources are/have been a bit buggy/messy 2) not many people compile ROMs from it (I've only seen 2 XDA users and the FXP Team).
I haven't yet dared to flash any AOSP build because I've been too busy on getting stock rooted to my liking and troubleshooting my Xposed issues and I don't want to interrupt that. It seems to be quite easy to flash ROMs though, it's either a TWRP flashable .zip, Flashtool flashable .tft or fastboot flashable .bin files.
I'm also curious about the mixed reports about 'sensor stuff not working' and 'everything works fine' on Sony-sourced AOSP builds, but so far no-one has answered my or your questions about it. Seems we'll have too find out ourselves at some point Best leave that part of questions and discussion in their respective threads to keep things organized.

Nice summary, thanks for the effort; its clear and concise.

jelbo said:
it's either a TWRP flashable .zip,
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I think free xperia team jeer at us cause twrp has a serious bug and it can't flash any roms for the time being whereas we can see exactly .zips at their site.
Interesting, had they even tested themselves what they uploaded

jelbo said:
Yes, they're similar. Which actually makes me think about a positive point as development for those devices can also benefit Z4T owners. For example @[NUT]'s efforts may eventually reach us, or when an Xperia user-land exploit is found, it will likely be shared among different devices.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've put XZDualRecovery on 'feature freeze' for 2.8 well over a year ago, because it needs some work to keep it working on the ever changing Android eco-system. As a consequence, I also stopped adding devices to the supported devices list. For XZDR 2.9 things will change and I will start adding devices again, remember that I am just on my own, from time to time I have a helper but they generally drop out after a while and I'm on my own again after that... I have a busy real life and a very busy job, which consumes most of my energy, leaving only little amounts of it for use on the XZDR development unfortunately... and I have big plans with it which I'd rather deploy sooner then later.
As security features increase, so do the difficulties to keep XZDR working properly... For the Z3+/Z4/Z5/M4 Aqua it is dm-verity, which throws a tantrum once the system partition is modified, which in turn causes a reboot (and with that a bootloop). This behavior has hampered the Stock Based custom ROM development and made it generally impossible to root the device...
A backup-ta with a built-in root exploit (similar to the XZDR installer) to allow a backup of the TA partition would kick-start the development for these models. People don't mind unlocking their devices but do mind losing their warranty on a 500-700 euro device... so most of them wait for the possibility to backup their TA partition.

Oh, and to actually participate in this topic:
I have to say the Z4 tablet takes my fancy and tics just about all the boxes of things I like about tablets... I own a Xperia Tablet Z, well, the misses has it now and I can 'occasionally' touch it :silly: and I have been looking for a new tablet to actually use myself
I don't have the funds to purchase a TabZ4, but I would really like to have one with the keyboard dock

[NUT] said:
Oh, and to actually participate in this topic:
I have to say the Z4 tablet takes my fancy and tics just about all the boxes of things I like about tablets... I own a Xperia Tablet Z, well, the misses has it now and I can 'occasionally' touch it :silly: and I have been looking for a new tablet to actually use myself
I don't have the funds to purchase a TabZ4, but I would really like to have one with the keyboard dock
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hello. Thanks for participating our thread. Tab Z4 is a great device with cool hardware, but it is less developed in comparison with Samsung to my regret. All we want for this moment are a fix of bug for twrp, problem with mounting the system, and some customs roms. And the very big dream is cyanogenmod of course

@jelbo, where in NL do you live? Did you root your TabZ4 yet?
---------- Post added at 02:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:26 PM ----------
alex009988 said:
Hello. Thanks for participating our thread. Tab Z4 is a great device with cool hardware, but it is less developed in comparison with Samsung to my regret. All we want for this moment are a fix of bug for twrp, problem with mounting the system, and some customs roms. And the very big dream is cyanogenmod of course
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, I am assuming that custom ROM's will come as soon as there is a viable way to flash them
I wonder why @AndroPlus wasn't able to fix the TWRP mount issues yet...

alex009988 said:
Hello. Thanks for participating our thread. Tab Z4 is a great device with cool hardware, but it is less developed in comparison with Samsung to my regret. All we want for this moment are a fix of bug for twrp, problem with mounting the system, and some customs roms. And the very big dream is cyanogenmod of course
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm pretty confident CM will support the 'karin' at some point. Many other Sony phones/tablets are officially supported.
[NUT] said:
@jelbo, where in NL do you live? Did you root your TabZ4 yet?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'll tell you in a PM Yeah, I've unlocked my bootloader and rooted it. I couldn't restrain myself anymore It's so much better now. Just some littles gripes left that'll be fixed sooner or later.
Well, I am assuming that custom ROM's will come as soon as there is a viable way to flash them
I wonder why @AndroPlus wasn't able to fix the TWRP mount issues yet...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Time restraints, who knows? He did post a v11 version of the kernel some days ago though @dl12345 who greatly helped him getting TWRP to work, may be able to fix it, but he hasn't been around. You can follow some technical details about it in the AndroPlusKernel thread.
It's just /system/ that cannot be restored though. Which is bad, but you can get out of a bad situation pretty quickly with restoring /data/ and using Helium/Titanium Backup, I think. Unless you really fried the ROM and need your /system/ back, then you can only go the flashtool route now

jelbo said:
I'm pretty confident CM will support the 'karin' at some point. Many other Sony phones/tablets are officially supported.
I'll tell you in a PM Yeah, I've unlocked my bootloader and rooted it. I couldn't restrain myself anymore It's so much better now. Just some littles gripes left that'll be fixed sooner or later.
Time restraints, who knows? He did post a v11 version of the kernel some days ago though @dl12345 who greatly helped him getting TWRP to work, may be able to fix it, but he hasn't been around. You can follow some technical details about it in the AndroPlusKernel thread.
It's just /system/ that cannot be restored though. Which is bad, but you can get out of a bad situation pretty quickly with restoring /data/ and using Helium/Titanium Backup, I think. Unless you really fried the ROM and need your /system/ back, then you can only go the flashtool route now
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
* [NUT] pokes @AndroPlus to join this conversation.
Due to lack of time on my side to read the entire topic, what exactly fails when restoring system?
@jelbo, do you have his kernel installed (a.k.a. have you unlocked your bootloader)?

[NUT] said:
* [NUT] pokes @AndroPlus to join this conversation.
Due to lack of time on my side to read the entire topic, what exactly fails when restoring system?
@jelbo, do you have his kernel installed (a.k.a. have you unlocked your bootloader)?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes and yes. Basically anyone here who's rooted their tablet is running AndoPlusKernel and have manually unlocked their bootloader.

jelbo said:
Yes and yes. Basically anyone here who's rooted their tablet is running AndoPlusKernel and have manually unlocked their bootloader.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I see, that un-complicates testing a lot

Gotta say... amazing tablet all together and the first device that i havent seen the mighty snapdragon handwarmer throttle from heat in. I kept roasting it for about 3 hours with simpleplanes and PC minecraft (boardwalk app) and it didnt lose any performance just got a bit hot on the back middle. I find the battery life to be good enough for a day of being on and off watching youtube and occasional gaming but i do keep screen brightness on auto at all times and features such as BT NFC and GPS off. Also a app that i think the tablet should have from factory: OGYoutube, you can have floating resizeable youtube above other apps or play in background or with screen off and download in mp4 or mp3.

I'd picked up a Z4T about 4 months ago to replace two different devices, my aging and finally dead cell phone (I hung on to my old Samsung S3 for way too long), and my laptop, which is a still functional but extraordinarily heavy beast of a 17" macbook - about 6 years old on its own as well. What can I say, they were still working so why buy new?
I have to say I'm very glad I made the purchase. I picked up a SBH52 handset to make phone calls more convenient, and splurged on the sony docking kb for the added ruggedness of using it as a "case" - which it does like a champ. Calls are nice and clear, and I've had pretty much no troubles - aside from some occasional static when using the handset (which I owe to the handset itself being a bit flaky). Even with an unlocked BL, remote play on my PS4 still works, only the Bravia screen mirroring to my TV is kaput. It serves very well as a laptop for those like me that need something lightweight for overnight trips, let with a big enough screen to be able to remote desktop troubleshoot back to the main office.
Would this replace every computer I own? Obviously not. I still own a high end desktop for videos, games, and intense word processing (the sony kb is just a bit small if you were attempting to write a novel for example); and my PS4 for console games; but for light end use and for traveling, it's almost the perfect laptop replacement. And as a combo cellphone laptop? I couldn't ask for better. My overall data usage has also dropped, because I'm using far more wireless on this device (I want to make sure it's connected for the stability if nothing else), but I can always drop out to a cell connection if no wireless is available - or if I don't feel like paying the stupid prices at the hotel the convention is being held at.
Now for the Cons:
I've really only got two, one of which was mentioned here. The damn thing is not cheap. Since I live in the states, the LTE version is not available directly. You need to pick up an international version from amazon or another reputable source. Hence the reason I have a kb with extra non-english symbols on it. Not that I mind, but it confuses some people when they look at it. When I picked mine up, the tablet kb and handset ran about $900 US all together. so not something you want to accidentally brick, or drop, or leave behind in a restaurant....
The second one is convenience. Given that it is a tablet - and a fairly large one, most people aren't going to go the phone replacement route like I did. You can't exactly just slip it into your pants pocket. And since the handset is BT, you can't exactly leave the tablet in the car and just use the handset inside most restaurants either (unless you park really close to the building). I'll often leave mine at home if all I do is run to the store for a dozen eggs or something, just because it's easier not to pack it up. But then half an hour of being unconnected and out of touch doesn't bother me - it might bother some though.
So there you have it, a much less technical review, from yet another satisfied user.

begalund said:
I'd picked up a Z4T about 4 months ago to replace two different devices, my aging and finally dead cell phone (I hung on to my old Samsung S3 for way too long), and my laptop, which is a still functional but extraordinarily heavy beast of a 17" macbook - about 6 years old on its own as well. What can I say, they were still working so why buy new?
I have to say I'm very glad I made the purchase. I picked up a SBH52 handset to make phone calls more convenient, and splurged on the sony docking kb for the added ruggedness of using it as a "case" - which it does like a champ. Calls are nice and clear, and I've had pretty much no troubles - aside from some occasional static when using the handset (which I owe to the handset itself being a bit flaky). Even with an unlocked BL, remote play on my PS4 still works, only the Bravia screen mirroring to my TV is kaput. It serves very well as a laptop for those like me that need something lightweight for overnight trips, let with a big enough screen to be able to remote desktop troubleshoot back to the main office.
Would this replace every computer I own? Obviously not. I still own a high end desktop for videos, games, and intense word processing (the sony kb is just a bit small if you were attempting to write a novel for example); and my PS4 for console games; but for light end use and for traveling, it's almost the perfect laptop replacement. And as a combo cellphone laptop? I couldn't ask for better. My overall data usage has also dropped, because I'm using far more wireless on this device (I want to make sure it's connected for the stability if nothing else), but I can always drop out to a cell connection if no wireless is available - or if I don't feel like paying the stupid prices at the hotel the convention is being held at.
Now for the Cons:
I've really only got two, one of which was mentioned here. The damn thing is not cheap. Since I live in the states, the LTE version is not available directly. You need to pick up an international version from amazon or another reputable source. Hence the reason I have a kb with extra non-english symbols on it. Not that I mind, but it confuses some people when they look at it. When I picked mine up, the tablet kb and handset ran about $900 US all together. so not something you want to accidentally brick, or drop, or leave behind in a restaurant....
The second one is convenience. Given that it is a tablet - and a fairly large one, most people aren't going to go the phone replacement route like I did. You can't exactly just slip it into your pants pocket. And since the handset is BT, you can't exactly leave the tablet in the car and just use the handset inside most restaurants either (unless you park really close to the building). I'll often leave mine at home if all I do is run to the store for a dozen eggs or something, just because it's easier not to pack it up. But then half an hour of being unconnected and out of touch doesn't bother me - it might bother some though.
So there you have it, a much less technical review, from yet another satisfied user.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for sharing

So I am coming to this device from the Nvidia Shield Tablet and I love the device thus far for all of the positive reasons mentioned. Also with respect to screen brightness listed as a con my own experience is that it is much better than what I was coming from.
The battery life is truly great with this device and my needs are small when it comes to the development area. I simply need it to be rooted because I prefer to remove all of googles garbage that I don't use and rooting and bootloader unlock was very simple.
All in all I am really liking this device, had it about 10 days now. I have the LTE version but only because I may use it at some point.
Overall very pleased with the device so far.

ThePhoneGeek said:
So I am coming to this device from the Nvidia Shield Tablet and I love the device thus far for all of the positive reasons mentioned. Also with respect to screen brightness listed as a con my own experience is that it is much better than what I was coming from.
The battery life is truly great with this device and my needs are small when it comes to the development area. I simply need it to be rooted because I prefer to remove all of googles garbage that I don't use and rooting and bootloader unlock was very simple.
All in all I am really liking this device, had it about 10 days now. I have the LTE version but only because I may use it at some point.
Overall very pleased with the device so far.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I was seriously considering the Shield because of the dev scene and the price. What made you switch?

jelbo said:
I was seriously considering the Shield because of the dev scene and the price. What made you switch?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The device itself just isn't very efficient on battery and I needed something with a slightly larger screen. It does ok but it's really designed more as a gaming device IMO which wasn't what I needed. Also the specs are a bit outdated now.

I noticed in the op that he said being a non eu customer when unlocking bootloader they will notice. Im an eu user, does this mean that they wont notice if I try claim warranty after bootloader unlock? I havent unlocked yet but I was getting slow WiFi and disconnections. I really want root but im not sure about this WiFi issue I set the WiFi to turn off at sleep and it seems better also the issues are caused less im concerned what would you guys do? ive sent it off to Sony once already they said nothing was wrong with wifi. Can someone help me decide? Much appreciated, many thanks.

Android's "Windows Vista" Moment

I started this off as a response to another thread inquiring about bugs or issues with 9.0, but ended up writing up a full piece about the useability and functionality of the system and decided to make it a new thread. In short, I suggest to anyone considering the update, if you're happy with your current set up and are not fond of relearning how to use something you carry and depend on every day, then you will probably want to stay on 8.1.
I used it from the day it released up until 2 days ago and found it to be a massive clusterf*ck of UI/UX inconsistencies, glaring white, and broken useability features. Notifications are a mess, settings and features which were organized into reasonable categories are now buried in unrelated submenus and renamed confusingly, reliable UI/UX features have been swapped with newer less obvious actions, gestures, and unclear UI elements, drastically unrelated font families have been thrown together to create a very visually jarring reading experience, the system UI has enough white-on-white you could use the phone as a beacon in a storm, and the color choices seem to have been based on focus groups conducted with toddlers. Maybe it's just me getting old and stubborn towards change, but the consistency and predictability of 8.1 is nowhere to be found in 9.0.
As for the backend, a lot has been added, more than I can recall or understand, but the PrivateDNS and MAC randomization are nice security upgrades that are actually useful for those who live in places with ubiquitous but often sketchy, less-than-open internet fuctionality. It is noticeably faster visually, but also particularly faster in dealing with larger files and database types of information. Small tweaks, like the media volume default, and the dynamic rotation icon in the navbar, are welcome additions, but those come at the expense of the god-awful, take it or leave it, reworking of the Recents overview page. I know it's currently optional, but I gave the new gesture system a go, and eventually got used to it. However, it's going to take some massive tweaking down the road for it to be anywhere near as efficient and simple as the old navbar and vertical card overview.
Core device functionality is fine and battery was fair, almost the same, but I run a very lean system and also disable a lot of services since I currently live in a country with restricted Google access and most of those features are useless to me. Camera is still best-in-class and shouldn't be expected to change since the core camera functionality is in the hardware, the Camera app, and the Pixel Visual Core extension app. Basically any system apps that update via the Play Store should and do function as expected without any noticeable problems. While not specifically a Google problem, it's still worth mentioning that some apps are not yet ready for 9.0 and need to be updated by their developers.
My personal opinion, 9.0 is Android's "Windows Vista" moment, and they'd be smart to pull the whole thing back to beta and hold the release until they get their UI/UX overhaul ready for a full primetime roll-out. The system runs like it was built and tuned specifically for the Pixel hardware, but the user experience made me cringe every time I picked up my phone.
I spent the last 36 hours downgrading to 8.1 from a full wipe, clean setup, and restoring an adb backup. I now have a phone that I actually enjoy using again and I couldn't be happier with it.
Edit:
In considering a few friends opinions regarding Betas and Developer Previews, I'm inclined to temper my opinions, but only slightly.
Yes, I agree, that taking part in the Beta and Developer Preview (DP) process of OS releases helps determine many important aspects of the OS. However, in the case of entities this large, that involvement is really only meant to be as bug chasers. Beta and DP user's opinions on UI/UX matters are largely ignored, as they do not fit within the framework of said entities larger goal: Mass Usage (i.e. the lowest common denominator, AKA the ignorant child-like masses). They only want you for your ability to create and willingness to report showstopping bugs. They don't need the developer or niche user community to make UI/UX choices, they have focus groups for that. Unfortunately, the customer isn't always right, and people don't usually know what they actually like or why. Chase opinions, focus groups, ad engagement, click data, and the fastest dollar, and eventually we'll all be living in a Fisher-Price world (see: Asia).
The second problem with participating in these not-really-beta and almost-but-not-quite-developer-previews is that, not only have they already made all of the major decisions about how it's going to look and be used, expert use and experience be-damned, but by participating in these programs, the user is effectively subjecting themselves to a brainwashing scheme meant to dull the discerning mind into believing that "vX.X is so much better now than when it first hit public preview". It's the equivalent of software Stockholm Syndrome. Public Beta and DP users have deluded themselves that this final release is ok based on how they saw it change from the first public preview release. It's still just as awful as it was when it first went public, it's just a slightly better shade of awful.
It's a damned shame such a powerful and well running OS feels like it had such an awful UI/UX thrown on top of it. It's inconsistent, half baked, and feels like a grab at the ignorant, screen-obsessed masses, if they were color-blind with 20/200 vision. This is professional grade coding with pre-alpha grade UI/UX. A system built for power with a GUI designed for infantiles, on a device aimed at enthusiasts. They should be ashamed.

I'm not struggling like you with the UI. But, in order to get the new hidden/back end benefits and avoid most of UI issues, why not just run a different launcher?

WibblyW said:
I'm not struggling like you with the UI. But, in order to get the new hidden/back end benefits and avoid most of UI issues, why not just run a different launcher?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I always do. Been a die hard Nova user for years. But there are some really weird glitches with how 9.0 and third party launchers interact. I managed to work most of them out but never regained that full, fluid, native UX like with previous versions.

Finally, someone who understands. I've been thinking that I'm the only one disgusted by this release.
How did you revert back to 8.1?
Unlock bootloader, flash-all script, re-lock?

harisyks said:
Finally, someone who understands. I've been thinking that I'm the only one disgusted by this release.
How did you revert back to 8.1?
Unlock bootloader, flash-all script, re-lock?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Backed up everything with Titanium, did a full /sdcard backup to pc via adb, full partition wipe via TWRP, then ran the flash-all script from the July image.
Afterwards, same as my usual manual update. Boot to TWRP flash kernel, and Magisk.
Followed by the painstaking process of a full manual setup of clean device.
Then installed Titanium and SD Maid, disabled all unnecessary services and activity hooks, restored SD Maid settings via Titanium, cleaned caches, then restored my /sdcard via adb, then restored user apps and user app settings via Titanium.
Then individually redownloaded all the individual app files that didn't make it in the backup.
And now, here I am, posting from my 8.1 device like the last two weeks never happened.
Edit:
If you're bootlocked, then you'll need to backup your important /sdcard files via file transfer or adb, unlock to do the fastboot method of restoring the stock 8.1 July image, then just relock, restore your /sdcard via file transfer or adb, and then manually download and setup all your apps fresh.
If I had to do all that, I would have either suffered with 9.0, or waited till I had enough whiskey and coffee on hand to suffer through a long weekend of a full manual setup.

@jallenhayslett thanks for the detailed reply, I appreciate it.
I'm don't have a lot to back up, so a clean flash isn't a major issue for me. I'll probably wait for the September security patch to see if they've changed anything and then decide.

So many tears about very minor UI changes. I don't get it. I feel like it the time you spent complaining about it you could have learned to use it.

crixley said:
So many tears about very minor UI changes. I don't get it. I feel like it the time you spent complaining about it you could have learned to use it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I tend to live by the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" ethos. "Just shut up and learn to love it" only exists in the section of my dictionary labeled "if absolutely necessary".
Mind you, I live and work in a country where ignoring things until they become festering, puss filled, infected boils is almost as commonplace as breathing, so I'm well acquainted with how I should just adjust and get by. I refuse to accept garbage products here as well, despite knowing it won't change many opinions.

jallenhayslett said:
I tend to live by the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" ethos. "Just shut up and learn to love it" only exists in the section of my dictionary labeled "if absolutely necessary".
Mind you, I live and work in a country where ignoring things until they become festering, puss filled, infected boils is almost as commonplace as breathing, so I'm well acquainted with how I should just adjust and get by. I refuse to accept garbage products here as well, despite knowing it won't change many opinions.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Many like the changes, so who decides that it is or isn't garbage? I like it personally, so is your opinion the only valid one, is mine? Etc.. It's changed, either adapt or move to something else.

crixley said:
Many like the changes, so who decides that it is or isn't garbage? I like it personally, so is your opinion the only valid one, is mine? Etc.. It's changed, either adapt or move to something else.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Glad you like it, regardless of my opinion. I did, however, move on, or back, rather.
Interesting though that I am not the only one to have similar opinions. opinions that have been mentioned and discussed as far back as the first preview build. But our opinions don't matter, and they aren't about the preview builds, they're about the release build, and our opinions matter even less in regards to public release builds.
Why these opinions and the opinions of countless others matter, is because, while occasionally drenched in colorful, subjective language, they actually address some very objective, glaringly obvious missteps taken by the departments responsible for UI and UX. Missteps which, whether you like, dislike, approve, or disapprove, resulted in repeatable glitches, slowdowns, and inefficiencies. Missteps which those departments chose to gloss over and/or ignore for the sake of shipping a subjectively better looking, subjectively cleaner, and subjectively prettier product on schedule, despite grievances aired by the developer community during testing phases.
So, yes, I agree. My opinion really doesn't matter. But, if that's the case, then neither does yours. Whether the opinions themselves address objective or subjective matters, at the end of the day, they are nothing but feelings. And feelings don't matter. Only facts.

I don't really understand what you say about never getting back the old fluidity, I've found no problems myself: the few gestures they have are simple to adapt to, and I'd personally probably have gone the whole hog and replaced the back button with a swipe left on the pill (easier to reach than a button that's off to the left, though I've customised my nav bar to move it in closer). I genuinely haven't felt any loss of usability, and use some features more (i.e. I occasionally remember the quick swipe to switch to last app, never remembered the equivalent with the old recents button).
I actually prefer the new "recent apps". Mind you, I always disliked the old "rolodex" style, so pretty much anything would be an improvement, but I often find it useful that I can actually read information off my recent apps without switching to them (e.g. when I'm looking something up in one app and using the information in another). So it's a matter of what you use the phone for and how you use it, but overall I find it better. Please don't feel obliged to label me as a member of the "ignorant, child-like masses" for having a different opinion from you.
Aesthetically I would prefer a more muted colour scheme in the settings, but Oreo was also blindingly white. And at least you no longer need substratum if you just want a dark notification slider with a light wallpaper (though we are back to needing root for proper theming, which is a regression, though since this is XDA we shouldn't find that a big problem).
Besides which, Vista's problems were of a different order to this

jallenhayslett said:
Glad you like it, regardless of my opinion. I did, however, move on, or back, rather.
Interesting though that I am not the only one to have similar opinions. opinions that have been mentioned and discussed as far back as the first preview build. But our opinions don't matter, and they aren't about the preview builds, they're about the release build, and our opinions matter even less in regards to public release builds.
Why these opinions and the opinions of countless others matter, is because, while occasionally drenched in colorful, subjective language, they actually address some very objective, glaringly obvious missteps taken by the departments responsible for UI and UX. Missteps which, whether you like, dislike, approve, or disapprove, resulted in repeatable glitches, slowdowns, and inefficiencies. Missteps which those departments chose to gloss over and/or ignore for the sake of shipping a subjectively better looking, subjectively cleaner, and subjectively prettier product on schedule, despite grievances aired by the developer community during testing phases.
So, yes, I agree. My opinion really doesn't matter. But, if that's the case, then neither does yours. Whether the opinions themselves address objective or subjective matters, at the end of the day, they are nothing but feelings. And feelings don't matter. Only facts.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Again "glaringly obvious" is opinion based. You're treating your opinion as factual.
I'm not saying my opinion matters either, what I'm saying is based on fact. Whether or not you like it, or I like it, it exists and is how it is.
Now, again, you can adapt to it, or just not update ever. I don't really care what you do, but I don't think much else is going to cure your grievances.
For every person that didn't like it during tested, at least 1 did.
I suppose you could write to them and tell them they should design it how you like it. Or to hire you, since you obviously know what everyone else wants on the UI.

jallenhayslett said:
I started this off as a response to another thread inquiring about bugs or issues with 9.0, but ended up writing up a full piece about the useability and functionality of the system and decided to make it a new thread. In short, I suggest to anyone considering the update, if you're happy with your current set up and are not fond of relearning how to use something you carry and depend on every day, then you will probably want to stay on 8.1.
I used it from the day it released up until 2 days ago and found it to be a massive clusterf*ck of UI/UX inconsistencies, glaring white, and broken useability features. Notifications are a mess, settings and features which were organized into reasonable categories are now buried in unrelated submenus and renamed confusingly, reliable UI/UX features have been swapped with newer less obvious actions, gestures, and unclear UI elements, drastically unrelated font families have been thrown together to create a very visually jarring reading experience, the system UI has enough white-on-white you could use the phone as a beacon in a storm, and the color choices seem to have been based on focus groups conducted with toddlers. Maybe it's just me getting old and stubborn towards change, but the consistency and predictability of 8.1 is nowhere to be found in 9.0.
As for the backend, a lot has been added, more than I can recall or understand, but the PrivateDNS and MAC randomization are nice security upgrades that are actually useful for those who live in places with ubiquitous but often sketchy, less-than-open internet fuctionality. It is noticeably faster visually, but also particularly faster in dealing with larger files and database types of information. Small tweaks, like the media volume default, and the dynamic rotation icon in the navbar, are welcome additions, but those come at the expense of the god-awful, take it or leave it, reworking of the Recents overview page. I know it's currently optional, but I gave the new gesture system a go, and eventually got used to it. However, it's going to take some massive tweaking down the road for it to be anywhere near as efficient and simple as the old navbar and vertical card overview.
Core device functionality is fine and battery was fair, almost the same, but I run a very lean system and also disable a lot of services since I currently live in a country with restricted Google access and most of those features are useless to me. Camera is still best-in-class and shouldn't be expected to change since the core camera functionality is in the hardware, the Camera app, and the Pixel Visual Core extension app. Basically any system apps that update via the Play Store should and do function as expected without any noticeable problems. While not specifically a Google problem, it's still worth mentioning that some apps are not yet ready for 9.0 and need to be updated by their developers.
My personal opinion, 9.0 is Android's "Windows Vista" moment, and they'd be smart to pull the whole thing back to beta and hold the release until they get their UI/UX overhaul ready for a full primetime roll-out. The system runs like it was built and tuned specifically for the Pixel hardware, but the user experience made me cringe every time I picked up my phone.
I spent the last 36 hours downgrading to 8.1 from a full wipe, clean setup, and restoring an adb backup. I now have a phone that I actually enjoy using again and I couldn't be happier with it.
Edit:
In considering a few friends opinions regarding Betas and Developer Previews, I'm inclined to temper my opinions, but only slightly.
Yes, I agree, that taking part in the Beta and Developer Preview (DP) process of OS releases helps determine many important aspects of the OS. However, in the case of entities this large, that involvement is really only meant to be as bug chasers. Beta and DP user's opinions on UI/UX matters are largely ignored, as they do not fit within the framework of said entities larger goal: Mass Usage (i.e. the lowest common denominator, AKA the ignorant child-like masses). They only want you for your ability to create and willingness to report showstopping bugs. They don't need the developer or niche user community to make UI/UX choices, they have focus groups for that. Unfortunately, the customer isn't always right, and people don't usually know what they actually like or why. Chase opinions, focus groups, ad engagement, click data, and the fastest dollar, and eventually we'll all be living in a Fisher-Price world (see: Asia).
The second problem with participating in these not-really-beta and almost-but-not-quite-developer-previews is that, not only have they already made all of the major decisions about how it's going to look and be used, expert use and experience be-damned, but by participating in these programs, the user is effectively subjecting themselves to a brainwashing scheme meant to dull the discerning mind into believing that "vX.X is so much better now than when it first hit public preview". It's the equivalent of software Stockholm Syndrome. Public Beta and DP users have deluded themselves that this final release is ok based on how they saw it change from the first public preview release. It's still just as awful as it was when it first went public, it's just a slightly better shade of awful.
It's a damned shame such a powerful and well running OS feels like it had such an awful UI/UX thrown on top of it. It's inconsistent, half baked, and feels like a grab at the ignorant, screen-obsessed masses, if they were color-blind with 20/200 vision. This is professional grade coding with pre-alpha grade UI/UX. A system built for power with a GUI designed for infantiles, on a device aimed at enthusiasts. They should be ashamed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just buy a Samsung phone and you won't have to worry about Pie for another year or two.

DuckRuckus said:
Just buy a Samsung phone and you won't have to worry about Pie for another year or two.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This.

Large Hadron said:
Besides which, Vista's problems were of a different order to this
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That we can agree on. It was a nightmare of a different sort. That's just the best analogy I could come up with at the time.
As for yours and everyone else's reponse regarding this being just opinion, I agree. I just had such a visceral reaction to the changes that it prompted me to write about it, and the more I wrote, the more disgusted I became. It's 90% subjective opinion.
I do, however, stand by what I've said, especially regarding their use of white, the color choices, and most specifically the mixing of unrelated font families within the same app. From a design perspective, theoretically, they just shouldn't work, but clearly they do for some people and that's just baffling to me. Moreover, it doesn't simply just not work for me, it makes me physically uncomfortable to use them. I've even gone so far as to turn off updates and detach from the market any of the apps which will be getting the MD2.0 makeover. For me they are so aesthetically revolting that using them is actually a chore.
So yeah, it is all subjective opinion. It's just very difficult for me to understand how something that elicited such a gut wrenching physical revulsion from me has either the opposite or no effect on other people. I would have expected a much larger amount of agreement. Such is the nature of opinion and perception, I suppose.
As for the "ignorant idiot" comments, that was not intended to make anyone feel as such. It was meant to illustrate how most of these companies, for the sake of money and reaching the widest possible audience, are in a race to the bottom. If 90% of the population happens to respond to infantile visuals, then that is what they will strive to create. The problem with that, however, is that it creates a negative feeback loop that results in ever decreasing usability and a perpetual dumbing down of not only the system, but of the people that use the system. It reaches a point where it's no longer about the balance between function and form, but whether or not a 3 year old will smile and giggle when they pick it up. Sophistication goes out the window in favor of raw simplicity. Think "Idiocracy", but applied to consumer tech instead of life and politics.

DuckRuckus said:
Just buy a Samsung phone and you won't have to worry about Pie for another year or two.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'd rather die in a raging house fire in a cabin in the woods alone on Christmas Eve than ever buy another Samsung phone.

jallenhayslett said:
As for the "ignorant idiot" comments, that was not intended to make anyone feel as such. It was meant to illustrate how most of these companies, for the sake of money and reaching the widest possible audience, are in a race to the bottom. If 90% of the population happens to respond to infantile visuals, then that is what they will strive to create. The problem with that, however, is that it creates a negative feeback loop that results in ever decreasing usability and a perpetual dumbing down of not only the system, but of the people that use the system. It reaches a point where it's no longer about the balance between function and form, but whether or not a 3 year old will smile and giggle when they pick it up. Sophistication goes out the window in favor of raw simplicity. Think "Idiocracy", but applied to consumer tech instead of life and politics.
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Click to collapse
This is so hilariously pompous, you must have an insanely high opinion of yourself.
The fact that a UIs design elicits this degree of a response from you is ridiculous.
You seem to think that anyone that doesn't share your opinion on design is an idiot, which is pathetic.
"I don't really like Jackson Pollock" "Oh the world is burninggggg! it's Idiocracy! Wahhhhh"

crixley said:
This is so hilariously pompous, you must have an insanely high opinion of yourself.
The fact that a UIs design elicits this degree of a response from you is ridiculous.
You seem to think that anyone that doesn't share your opinion on design is an idiot, which is pathetic.
"I don't really like Jackson Pollock" "Oh the world is burninggggg! it's Idiocracy! Wahhhhh"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Funny. I actually don't really like Jackson Pollock. Good call.

I'm not having any of these problems, I went and did a complete wipe and Flash the factory image not the OTA, TWRP and rooted, with ElementalX kernel

This post threw me for a loop. I guess mileage will vary??? I've been on 9 for several days now and I love it. It's snappier and there are features available now that I debated selling the phone over. I'm glad I stuck with it. I had a touch screen latency problem that is gone now. If it wasn't I would have ditched it and moved on to something else. Not much substance or quantification in this post but my vote is solidly with 9.0. My opinion only. I firmly believe 8.1 looked good but had some serious issues. I've always believed form should follow function. It can look great but if it doesn't work, it doesn't matter.

Has the Nook had its last gasp?

We all love the Nook but it's getting kind of old in the tooth.
Ok, the Glow4 (7.8") finally upped its game to 1 GB RAM, but that was kind of necessary.
It also added Bluetooth, something that could have been done cheaply and easily to earlier models.
Although I'm no fan of using the latest and greatest Android version, 4.4.2 is getting a bit old.
I understand that this is a tough business where every little part on the BOM (bill of materials) will hurt you.
Still, using single core processor is so yesterday. A Raspberry Pi Zero has quad core for $10-15.
To my mind a 6" 300 DPI reader is about optimal for flowing text reading.
For frequent or work PDF reading I'd want a 10" 300 DPI reader instead of high power reading glasses.
The 8" reader seems to fall uncomfortably in the middle.
The Kobos are Linux based, not Android.
Onyx has some decent choices in their (confusedly similar) product palette.
The older stuff has Android 4.4, the newer stuff Android 9.0
They have quad core and even octa core.
The "Poke 2" looks pretty nice for a 6", but why did they have to add the silver styling?
https://onyxboox.com/boox_poke2
(Oh, well, some sandpaper and a can of black spray paint would fix that.)

As I am in love with the Aard dictionary, my NST has been simply wonderful. But I understand Kobo no longer support an SD card. Where to now?

Same boat. I just got rid of my GLP BNRV510. Hated the light grey, small dictionary font. Also reading PDF seemed to convert those documents to oversized images. My NSTw/GL was awesome. I was going to upgrade to the new NGLP7.8 but the specs and issues with overheating are a turn off. Also I have read reviews stating that you can't side load books anymore? This may also apply to the GLP BNRV510 with the latest firmware update too. Which eReader now?

The Glow2 (BNRV510) is my main read.
If I have to read a PDF, I read it in landscape at two "chunks" a page.
I wouldn't think that B&N would try to lock down sideloads and I don't anticipate it would be hard to defeat.

I hope not but I understand the arguments for your question. To be honest NST as it was not my first choice (first choice was some Sony model) but I love it now. Last time I checked Kobo Aura looked nice but that was long ago and I do not know how things look now on the market.

Recently I was scrubbing my head around this issue. How I see the problem with NST? Well B&N locked out anything and everything humanly possible to prevent users doing something they did not wanted them to do. Devs unlock most of the obstacles out of protest or because of challenge ahead. As it runs ancient version of Android apps are scarce and disappearing fast. Writing an app dedicated for NST might be an act of love toward hardware base made by dedicated fanatic but we can assume there are not to many such individuals around today as Rennate said Nook is old.
So without further ado there are few roads as I see that could be taken if NST is to continue ahead.
1. Upgrades to Android version as far and much its hardware allows and using slightly more up to date apps for it (like CM11 approach running from SD card allows).
2. As Android is just an overlay on Linux leave it as is for B&N sake and good sleep but make some dual boot solution that will actually allow us to boot Linux (something in the line of Ubuntu for devices but not exactly so because as far as I remember that work only for versions of Android above 4) as that could give user maximum possible ability to customize it for his/her use.
3. Just say bye to B&N and build new NST OS from scratch be it Linux or another version of Android as that might be easier due to a clean slate/paper ahead and being less bound to a obstacles made by B&N.
4. It might be possible to create also dual profile on the current NST OS but given its restrictions that might not be of some great use - (B&N profile and user profile). What other forum members think about it?
P.S. I did not want to create separate thread about this and this thread seemed to fit in the general idea of talk about it. I hope Rennate wont mind.

Nah, I don't mind.
I use the same reader app on my Glow2 and everything else, including my $70 Walmart Onn 8" tablet.
Even a cheap-o (single CPU) tablet has 2G vs the Glow2's 0.5G
For better or worse, people like the Android ecosystem as a way to make apps.
Of course, Google & Co are working on making everything ginormous and expensive.
(And adding even more pointless animations.)
It's always a question of how much work you want to put in to fight annoying things.

Renate NST said:
Nah, I don't mind.
I use the same reader app on my Glow2 and everything else, including my $70 Walmart Onn 8" tablet.
Even a cheap-o (single CPU) tablet has 2G vs the Glow2's 0.5G
For better or worse, people like the Android ecosystem as a way to make apps.
Of course, Google & Co are working on making everything ginormous and expensive.
(And adding even more pointless animations.)
It's always a question of how much work you want to put in to fight annoying things.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am glad that you do not mind and find this discussion still within topic you started.
As always you hit problem in the head with much less words then me. I have always wondered what are the limits of hardware requirements needed (minimum) for some tasks/programs to run reliably. And we see that people test those boundaries each day.
You are correct that Android had given people app making opportunities. Sadly recent trend is to take away that from us on old devices as this one. I agree that "awww look its so shiny and buzzing" might look nice but regarding information value its pretty much crap (no way to put it politely sorry). Information is what the people using books/ebooks find to have some merit and it is in the form of text, graph, still picture mostly. I accept that sometimes video can be better tool for presenting certain information but general trend is not in that direction. Information in any shape and form I will accept gladly. Sad truth is that today we have to duck and fight against flash advertising and eye candy web UI of very little value and dubious quality.
I have some doubts what would be the most likely way to continue that is why I made that post. If it was my thread I would make a poll but even here I am willing to hear what is your opinion? Amongst four options I wrote up what would you most likely choose as a way forward? Also if possible please explain why.

1) I think doing an upgrade of Android version on an older device is a bunch of work and hardly justified.
2) I'm not a fan of dual boot. I like to keep things simple. Especially on my main reading device where I just want to pick it up and read.
Android "Linux" has quite a few different things than normal Linux. If you want Linux, get a Kobo.
3) Porting something new to the NST is a lot of work. See #1
4) I don't see the necessity of dividing profiles. I also don't understand what you're looking for.
Ok, I'm a fan of the NST, but it's had its day. The Glows have better resolution and backlight.
You get your choice of capacitive (Glow2) or IR (Glow3) touch screen.
The Android 4.4.2 on the Glows is not so bad yet. (The NST Android 2.1 makes life difficult.)
I think more memory, Bluetooth and a better processor would be on my wish list (in order).
Yes, the Glow4 has Bluetooth.
With enough effort you can fix any little technical thing in life that annoys you.
(I just spend this morning grinding and filing down a piece on my brand new guitar because I couldn't stand the design.)
It's a question of time and also how many people your effort would help.
I think an Onyx Boox is in my future, but I wish they didn't have so many silly models.

It's funny, I still use my original Nook Simple Touch, but a few times a year I find myself curious and looking to see if there's a perfect e-reader out yet for me to upgrade to. In the end it always just seems like nothing is really so much better that I really want to buy it, though.
In particular, page refreshes and overall responsiveness, which are the main things I'd like to be better, still just haven't improved enough on affordable e-readers, in my opinion. A backlight would be kinda cool, but hardly seems like a big deal since personally I'm still pretty used to reading real books, which obviously don't have built in lighting either. I guess a higher density screen might be nice, but I can't say I really notice it on my NST. Newer Android? Maybe, though I've really always been able to find an app that does what I need and works on the NST even with Android 2.1, so I'm not sure what the advantage would be.
I'm a pretty light user of my Nook, though, I guess. Most of the time I'm just reading epubs or sometimes pdfs (scientific papers, which are usually published as double columns, so they work just fine on the NST screen), plus the occasional word games or round of picross here and there. Someday I'm sure I'll upgrade to a new reader, but I think it's gonna be a while at the rate the technology has been improving.

You have stated all valid points here. I understand them and agree to most. Maybe I should explain in more details my points.
I use NST as is. Still restrictions imposed on user by B&N are frustrating sometimes. I mentioned upgrading Android on the device only because its own base is abandoning 2.1 and cutting of access to application made for this version. I have nothing against sideloading apps but if the source to such apps is going to dry out it might be a time for a change. Theoretically with slight upgrade of Linux kernel on it upgrade to gingerbread/honeycomb looks doable. Is it worth the effort is a valid question and that is exactly what I am asking for opinion here.
I am mostly using an OS from that Redmond firm. Although I want to learn and use Linux more I am certainly not looking into using it on e-reader despite it is possible to do on Kobo. Point of dual boot would be to leave B&N stuff as is and do on Linux what you like. At least on Linux you would not be that easily cutoff from apps you want/need. Again looks doable but I am not sure if it is recommendable. Reason for me to considering this is that more and more I read about trying to write/rewrite an apps for this device. Even I have started something similar to porting Linux program to Android and being frustrated by next to nill progress so far started to wonder am I doing it backward and should I run Linux on NST and program in the environment it was written for.
I am surprised Renate is not for whole new OS because the way I see the things she is already halfway there with all the apps she wrote for NST. . I know OS is another matter but let's face it it was half baked product to begin with. I mean Phone.apk really? On a device without sound support! And that app control volume? Man B&N really had shoestring budget for software developer and had us use port of some phone OS instead writing dedicated stuff.
I find multiple profile least advised on such low power device but I could see its merit here and there. I have a cousin which would be happy if she had kids profile on its phone as that would prevent paying triple digit roaming charges. NST most likely do not have the power to pull of multiple profiles although in theory something like that could be made even for Eclare in some crumbly way.
NST have resolution just above low printing and we love it. If some device could achieve 300dpi and have larger screen A4 size preferably with A5 being minimum that would be awesome. There are few device on market Remarkable and Sony with 10 and 13.3 inch screen but they cost still an arm and a leg. Although they shifted concept more toward notebook/sketchbook I have no problem with that but e-book support is next to nothing PDF only if I remember well. I am old and I like to use "pen" on "paper". I will look about other device mentioned. Aura H2O did caught my eye once to be honest.
Now I hope you can see my points more clearly. I find this discussion fruitful. Even if we do nothing we at least have fresh input from others to tickle little gray cells.

As far as upgrades go, upgrading to anything less than Lollipop (5.0) is pretty pointless.
That's already five years old as it is.
As bloat is a given, you're always going to need more memory and a faster processor.
If you want to learn about Linux a Raspberry Pi is certainly an economical solution.
For ~$15 you can get a Raspberry Pi ZeroW.
Android *nix deviates a lot from Linux but mostly in system and startup issues.
You can cross-compile C programs on your Windows box using the the Android NDK and run them in the command line on your Nook.
You won't have direct access to the screen unless you want to write to /dev/graphics/fb0 yourself.
If you don't want the Android layer running at that time you can just turn it on and off with "stop" and "start".
You might try to get into writing regular Java (or Kotlin, but don't get me going on that) applications.
There is something to be said for having your own app that runs on both your phone and your Nook.
There's a lot of convenience in having whatever you're looking for on whatever device you have at the moment.
I always though that backlights were pointless, but I've learned to love them.
If you have copier paper a lot of it is 92% reflective.
The white in eInk is a lot grayer than that.
I always keep my backlight on, but only to the point that it makes up for the gray tint to make it white.
Looking at it you really don't get the impression that it is glowing.

I have stumbled on web page of a project to port some 4+ Android version on NST which pretty much surprised me. Can not remember was it ICS or JB and hell Kitkat would be awesome for device that old. I believe that for that they must abandon B&N stuff almost completely unless they somehow ported it back from Glow versions? And counting in size expected I bet that they reformatted partitions on the device to make it happen. Now will that stick together or fall apart spontaneously is another question. I remember that on xda that somewhere was a thread about disabling OTA from B&N that could brake such upgrade but since they no longer support NST we should not worry about this. I wonder why did you said Lollipop as minimum choice? Do you consider it as minimum acceptable Android version or maximum that NST could possibly run?
As far as Linux go nah I will just play with old laptop instead. Although I caught myself looking to buy present for nephews in electronic realm. Arduino or Pie? aye there is the rub...
I didn't program anything reasonable for a long time. Therefore I am more than rusty in that field. Although I believesome Python or lua script I could manage if enough effort is put on my side.Julia look to me as a programming language that shows some promise to the future from old man perspective. Certainly none of those are useful to porting anything to Android and NST. For the moment I cut my appetite back and will look into how I can backup NST and make virtual image out of it to run it in Virtual box. There I hope to try to learn how things work on Android an play/apply changes in the sand boxed environment. If I break something no harm done just delete virtual drive and start again. I don't want to brick my only NST. Maybe I should buy used one for latter to as I see lot of UK used one have hit the market after B&N closed in UK.
I hate Java from reasons unwilling to disclose or as you said let's not start about that. Idea behind it is fine. Sadly it is lot to be desired on the implementation side. I totally understand that Java might give some benefits especially if we count in the already existing base of programs written on Java. Have a friend who learn and use Java but I personally never manage to overcome my personal detest of it.
Regarding backlight... I never saw Glow. Is there true backlight in like shining through panel? Or did they made something in line of those book lights for real books? I think that could work for capacitive screen but not so much so for IR like NST have. That should not glow much I think and could be regulated in illumination and colour.

The NST has 256M RAM, the Glow2/3 has 512M, the Glow4 has 1G, my $40 phone has 2G.
The $60 Kobo I have has only 256M, but it just runs Linux.
I couldn't be bothered to update my NST even if you handed me an image on a platter.
ebay has the Glow4 (open box) for $130.
I wouldn't even try to update that to a newer version, too much work.
Since this thread started the Boox Poke3 6" reader has come out.
It has Android 10, 8 CPUs, 2G RAM, Bluetooth and lists for $190.
That's a heck of a lot more of a device than the Glow3 for $120.
It also doesn't have the ugly styling of the Poke2.
https://www.boox.com/poke3/
Hmm, currently not in the US warehouse.
I'm a big fan of Arduino and RPi, but it gets complicated.
An adult friend bought an Arduino, hooked up an LCD and a thermometer, loaded the sketch.
It worked. They got bored. End of the story.
I don't know what the solution is. You make it too easy, they get bored. You make it too hard, they get frustrated.
I'm not a fan of the whole Arduino infrastructure and the Processing language. I prefer just AVR8. But I am "old skool".
I use RPi a lot, but I've only seen the desktop version about once.
I use headless and also digital signage without X Windows or desktop.
The Glow2 has single color edge lit backlight, The Glow3/4 uses dual color (blending) edge lit backlight.
If you hold them sighting down the face of the screen at a very low angle you can tell there are discreet LEDs.
(It's nothing you could ever see in normal usage.)

I checked Boox first time you mentioned it. Impressive progress I must say. Paradox is that as I understand newer Android versions are more optimized to be run even on underpowered devices but I agree that NST is both old and underpowered. Still even you mentioned that Kobo has same low memory but still running successfully Linux only environment. That speaks a lot in Linux favor regarding resource management and use. Yes there are slim chances someone cook something up for NST and even then people will just buy new device that is several times better. You wouldn't believe but B&N readers are hard to find here. I had to ask a friend to bring me the one from Middle East because it was available there so go figure.
Thanks for the opinion about Arduino vs RPi. I think you might be right. Kids nowadays will be interested to program more than to assemble something and experiment. Its a shame because I think they could learn more about physics by fiddling with Arduino.
Thanks for explaining me or rather confirming how light on Glow device is made. I am curious how they sorted out possible interference of lighting with IR touchscreen but I guess they somehow used non overlapping LEDs for those two separate things or passthrough IR only filters on IR detector side. In theory even some simple software calibration could work for that but I am also an "old skool" and wouldn't choose that as my way had I have gotten the task to build something of this kind. I might rig me some "lights" for old fashioned hardcopy books. Not that I can't buy it online but I want to engage my fingers a little.

If you haven't played with it yet, the Touch-1.0.apk (in the sig) works on the NST and will show you how/where the beams of IR go.
It can be helpful to see where dirt or distortion of the bezel is making it difficult for touches to be registered correctly.

Since the party seems to be going into a topic of what next best e-reader should be maybe we could exchange opinions about certain things available as in are they necessary or good enough at this moment. For example Boox is offering a model that can show ebooks as black and white or I presume as 4 color "print". As B&W it present it as 300dpi which is on par with printed books and man can not ask for more in my opinion. Alas when it present 4 color "print" it is meager 100dpi that could mean even NST just blows it out of scene. So my vote on color e-reader is still no. If it ever reach 150dpi it will become a thing to consider but right now it is still under acceptable performance from mine point of view.
Do you consider making notes on a device important? I am asking because I have mentioned ReMarkable and Sony DPT (which is gone now). Sony again made good device only to withdraw from the market at the end. While I understand that in the e-reader case as Amazon blow them out securing the better library this time I am afraid it is Sony's own fault. There exist few rebranded models of hardware Sony used with seemingly better software Fujitsu Quadreno and Mooink Pro. Mooink support PDF, epub, docs and text and offers a software for file conversion and DRM management. There are few annoying things. Almost none have microSD card option now. It is replaced with cloud storage or printing. And I personally like having pen but I find being robbed when they sell it separately and with replaceable tips because they made those to wear out. Cost is way to high despite larger screen.

I'm not clear on what you mean with "4 color".
The only thing that I can see on the website is a way to save your scribbles to an external file where you can set the color saved (but not viewed) on the device.
If you've ever seen a store white/red/black eInk shelf label update you'll know that that's only useful for things that change once a day.
I don't look too closely at the reader software itself since I'll probably just use my own.
I hate the sort of pictograph selection of small, medium, large font.
What if I want 5% larger than medium?
There's always a bit of conflict between SD card and waterproof.
I figure 32 GB fixed storage is large enough for me.
There's always a big tossup what is the correct mix of devices, phone, ereader, tablet, tablet with pen, tablet with keyboard, laptop, desktop?
I've never owned a personal laptop, never seen the sense (for me).
Rarely do I use a tablet or a phone with a BT keyboard when I want to do some sort of bulk inputting or fleshing out an idea or transcribing lyrics.
I kind of like digitizers, but never found a way that the utility exceeds the space they take.

Onyx Boox Poke 2 Color is for example device able to reproduce color. Yet is it worth buying?
Yes I understand your choice to use custom reader software. File support seems to have always been a problem and it just went worse from there.
Yes waterproof device shouldn't have SD card. I have mean more in a sense of having the ability to root, backup and thinker with the device.

SJT75 said:
Onyx Boox Poke 2 Color is for example device able to reproduce color.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The product selection of Onyx or Boox or Onyx Boox has always confused the heck out of me.
Currently on https://www.boox.com/allproducts/ there is no indication of anything color.
Moreover, the "About Us" speaks of "We focus on E Ink ( ePaper) devices only. "
But I do remember seeing something previously on the website that spoke of color.

[BOUNTY] Looking to totally take over HD8 2020 or HD8 2022

Here is a [BOUNTY] you will not want to miss out on. First complete set of instructions on how to totally jailbreak the HD8 2020 or HD8 2022 gets a cool $1000 cash once the instructions are completely verified. And another sum of equal or greater value upon full testing.
Here are the details:
The device should have no remnants of the old OS visible to the user. The interface should look as close to stock Android as possible. Setup menu, some file manager application, and a few other applications should be available if necessary. There should be no ability to side load other apps.
I am looking to push one app onto the device, which is being developed. That application is a specialized audio player taking advantage of the very decent audio properties of the HD8 2020 or 2022. The app will take a LOT of the processing power so all radios will be turned off and fixed to be non-functional. USB will work and stay in debug mode for updates and additional data xfers. Graphics will be used at a minimum. Much of the compute power of the device will be tasked with calculations and playing audio. Some of which will be calculated on the fly. Please reply if you have any further questions.
There may be other paid design/programming activities associated with this project.

I hope this is a joke.

Rortiz2 said:
I hope this is a joke.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What part is unclear? This is not a joke.
The purpose of this request is to limit the functionality of the tablet for safety of the individual using my product. Taxing the processor to do other things will take away from all of the work the processor must do maintaining the functionality of the device plugged into the USB C port that I am designing. It is not yet clear that the device needs to be rooted. At least the GUI menu needs to be closer to Android stock. I really presume that current work is fairly close to what I will need except for the following: Turn off radios permanently, replace the menus with something better than currently offered, and prevent loading other software.
Current setup that I have makes some noise, (popping) on the audio output that is not so good.

rhandel said:
What part is unclear? This is not a joke.
The purpose of this request is to limit the functionality of the tablet for safety of the individual using my product. Taxing the processor to do other things will take away from all of the work the processor must do maintaining the functionality of the device plugged into the USB C port that I am designing. It is not yet clear that the device needs to be rooted. At least the GUI menu needs to be closer to Android stock. I really presume that current work is fairly close to what I will need except for the following: Turn off radios permanently, replace the menus with something better than currently offered, and prevent loading other software.
Current setup that I have makes some noise, (popping) on the audio output that is not so good.
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Click to collapse
I'm sorry to be the one to burst your bubble of illusion but I'm afraid that if all you want to do requires root, you can start by buying another device (and make sure it's not from Amazon).
Your idea sounds cool, stock Android and forget about FireOS, the usual dream of Amazon Fire users. However, this is not possible in recent generations since Amazon made sure to close all the backdoors that helped us unlock older generation tablets. This includes patching the LK vulnerability (amonet), disabling bootrom mode (with efuses), always updating security patches (Amazon has always been a stickler for this), and among other very extreme security measures.
In short, the devices you are talking about are not unlockable and I really doubt that in the future they will be. My personal recommendation; try to find one of the early Amazon Fire HD10 2019s, which can be temporarily unlocked and have several ROMs based on AOSP (LineageOS, ArrowOS).​

Thank you for the impassioned recommendations. I get that, and now have a better appreciation of the task.
Do you have any recommendations for newer hardware that can fill the bill? This project requires octicore hardware or better because of the need for speed/performance of newer processors to do the heavy lifting. I have had several other Android devices (off brand Chinese attempts at hardware), that are too under powered for the purpose and have too many bugs to be considered.
Here are the basics: I am looking to push one app onto the device, which is being developed. That application is a specialized audio player taking advantage of the very decent audio properties the device. The app will take a LOT of the processing power so all radios will be turned off and fixed to be non-functional. USB will work and stay in debug mode for updates and additional data xfers. Graphics will be used at a minimum. Much of the compute power of the device will be tasked with calculations and playing audio. Some of which will be calculated on the fly.
All of this can be done on an RPi 4 but I am looking to shave costs off of the device. I don't NEED android. It's a means to an end. Development costs are not the issue but ongoing costs adding to product cost are.

Rortiz2 said:
Your idea sounds cool, stock Android and forget about FireOS, the usual dream of Amazon Fire users. However, this is not possible in recent generations since Amazon made sure to close all the backdoors that helped us unlock older generation tablets. This includes patching the LK vulnerability (amonet), disabling bootrom mode (with efuses), always updating security patches (Amazon has always been a stickler for this), and among other very extreme security measures.
In short, the devices you are talking about are not unlockable and I really doubt that in the future they will be. My personal recommendation; try to find one of the early Amazon Fire HD10 2019s, which can be temporarily unlocked and have several ROMs based on AOSP (LineageOS, ArrowOS).​
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Can we put this information somewhere easy to find for people (like me) searching for ways to "free" the newer generations? I have spent quite some time to find information about rooting possibilities for the 12th generation of Fire 8 HD and not been able to find it. But here, in a Thread certainly not meant fo me, i found them

MarvinGS said:
Can we put this information somewhere easy to find for people (like me) searching for ways to "free" the newer generations? I have spent quite some time to find information about rooting possibilities for the 12th generation of Fire 8 HD and not been able to find it. But here, in a Thread certainly not meant fo me, i found them
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Click to collapse
MarvinGS,
The bottom line is that the prospects are fewer and fewer because of the tightening down of the Android system. And the very custom hardware used in many new devices. It is NOT as trivial as it used to be. And intentionally so. Amazon has a vested interest in keeping things from people like you and I.
I am looking for cheap hardware to make a larger project and will probably go with dedicated hardware to get the features that I need. I was merely looking for the video and some light computing to be done by Android. The devices still don't have enough power to do what I need them to do.
RAH