Database Users

Is THIS really all the camera is capable of?!?

Or is mine bad?!? Seriously, is no one else getting this problem with blown highlights and over-exposure, or are y'all accepting it? I bought this phone for its "superior camera" and while yes it can take pictures in low light I was not willing to give up taking good pictures in good lighting >8(
I installed Android Revolution 8, then 9, to get the "updated" camera- stock kernel, Dev. Ed.
Attached photo taken with stock camera with auto settings, no custom settings, no hdr (though that has been disappointing as well). Oh and white balance was about 5-800 Kelvin too yellow as well... (sigh)
So do I send it back to get cameras as good as everyone else's or start watching the Sony rumors again? Because my 18 month old Galaxy Note could get this picture right...
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2

The camera is awesome, its just you have to play around with the settings. Cange the sharpness to -1 and contrast to +1 for day light pictures. Also focus manually before taking pics.
Sent from my Nexus 10 using XDA Premium HD app

What were u expecting from a phone camera?
If you want realy good pictures you need to buy a good standalone camera..
The time isnt still there (and will be for along time) before phone cameras can compete with good standalone cameras...

I also find the camera disappointing. I love the software features like Zoe, but I personally can't rely on this camera to quickly capture a good picture. And I don't think the low light performance is very good either.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using xda app-developers app

Those pictures do not look nearly as good as pictures I have taken with mine,using stock settings. Here's a couple for example. The pictures look a lot better in original format as well in full resolution.
Sent from my HTC One using xda premium

I love this camera, it lacks the raw specs but it manages to capture those special moments very well, better than even a camera.

The camera has impressed me so far, especially the speed and the amazing colours.
Completely stock trickdroid settings for camera here
@jeeptrash love your cat
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta

My camera is working fine too
it's not perfect but it works

john291 said:
What were u expecting from a phone camera?
If you want realy good pictures you need to buy a good standalone camera..
The time isnt still there (and will be for along time) before phone cameras can compete with good standalone cameras...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
John, my expectations are to not move BACKWARD in quality. Trust me I carry my X100 half the time, but the other half this phone was supposed to fill in and it doesn't cut it.
It's your phone also blowing highlights and having white balance problems? I'm trying to understand if this behavior is typical or not.
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2

The overexposure thing is a little annoying it's true. HDR mode seems to recover lost shadow detail but doesn't seem to help with blown-out highlights.
Setting contrast to +1 is definitely *not* going to help it.
When you know there will be difficult highlights, setting exposure to -1 in normal non-HDR mode seems like the only response. Not ideal I know. Especially when making such a simple, temporary adjustment requires a lot of fiddling around with menus.

Yep, been playin with my camera all day, had no work in. Found the adjustment settings werent fine enough - swung too much one way or the other on +/- 1.
And indoor pictures where theres any daylight showing (doors/windows etc) caused the images to be washed out, even when focused on the lightest part first.
I think the hardware is fine, just some software improvements are needed. So its not all bad.

davedigerati said:
John, my expectations are to not move BACKWARD in quality. Trust me I carry my X100 half the time, but the other half this phone was supposed to fill in and it doesn't cut it.
It's your phone also blowing highlights and having white balance problems? I'm trying to understand if this behavior is typical or not.
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hello yes it have the white balance problems sometimes..
I think they need to finetune the software better..
But it can also make some nice pictures too...
But a fine tuned software would be great..
---------- Post added at 10:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:07 PM ----------
davedigerati said:
John, my expectations are to not move BACKWARD in quality. Trust me I carry my X100 half the time, but the other half this phone was supposed to fill in and it doesn't cut it.
It's your phone also blowing highlights and having white balance problems? I'm trying to understand if this behavior is typical or not.
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
By the way this was a simple picture i took out of my window..
Here i like the shadow detail and the natural look of it..

The camera does over expose yes. If you want an easy to use camera. Get the S4/iPhone 5.

Can you control, ISO, shutter speed, Exposure compensation?
Turn ISO off automatic and set it to like 50

Terrorantula said:
Can you control, ISO, shutter speed, Exposure compensation?
Turn ISO off automatic and set it to like 50
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can control iso but you cant get below 100..
The shutter speed cant be controlled manual..
The exposure can be set.

Terrorantula said:
Can you control, ISO, shutter speed, Exposure compensation?
Turn ISO off automatic and set it to like 50
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ISO & exposure yes, you can, and even better if you want to monkey with settings for every shot I recommend FV-5 which I use frequently
https://play.google.com/store/apps/...NvbS5mbGF2aW9uZXQuYW5kcm9pZC5jYW1lcmEucHJvIl0.
The point of my post though is not to find workarounds but to see if this is COMMON, or my camera chip has issues.
I'm puzzled by the lack of complaints out there and feel like the photo I posted was a good example of average sunny day conditions, done badly. Indoors, low light, we're fine, it's the sunny days that are the issue.
Everyone quiet means either
a) everyone is accepting poor quality sunny day photos
b) my camera has issues and everyone else's is fine
c) everyone is feeling a little bit bad that the camera they were promised would offer 'a great leap in the quality of point-and-shoot photos and video' (http://www.htc.com/www/zoe/) frankly isn't, and reluctant to say so, or
d) other?
So everyone shooting sunny day pics please chime, in I appreciate your input- if your pics are coming out great without clipping I'll start the RMA process, or if yours are getting blown I'll fire up the angry fan-boi machine and pester every HTC channel I can hit with requests for a camera update.
Cheers,
Dave

The latter option.

I second, go for the latter
Sent from my HTC One using xda app-developers app

davedigerati said:
ISO & exposure yes, you can, and even better if you want to monkey with settings for every shot I recommend FV-5 which I use frequently
https://play.google.com/store/apps/...NvbS5mbGF2aW9uZXQuYW5kcm9pZC5jYW1lcmEucHJvIl0.
The point of my post though is not to find workarounds but to see if this is COMMON, or my camera chip has issues.
I'm puzzled by the lack of complaints out there and feel like the photo I posted was a good example of average sunny day conditions, done badly. Indoors, low light, we're fine, it's the sunny days that are the issue.
Everyone quiet means either
a) everyone is accepting poor quality sunny day photos
b) my camera has issues and everyone else's is fine
c) everyone is feeling a little bit bad that the camera they were promised would offer 'a great leap in the quality of point-and-shoot photos and video' (http://www.htc.com/www/zoe/) frankly isn't, and reluctant to say so, or
d) other?
So everyone shooting sunny day pics please chime, in I appreciate your input- if your pics are coming out great without clipping I'll start the RMA process, or if yours are getting blown I'll fire up the angry fan-boi machine and pester every HTC channel I can hit with requests for a camera update.
Cheers,
Dave
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have posted few times in this forum about disappointing camera or my expectation is too high. Maybe the next HTC software update would fix them. I like the speakers though which is undeniable to be the best.

Camera is superb.
But it's not all things to all men. If you prepared to fanny around with lighting, settings, angles etc for a photo, and expect a high res masterpiece, this isn't your bag. If you want a point and shoot camera which takes nr unbeatable pictures quickly, then this is it.
Mega bright lights will screw any photo up. Your picture is remarkable given the phone was able to cope at all.
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2

HTC One - Some Impressive Photos

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lng0004/sets/72157633487686583/
Very good looking photos, taken with the HTC One. Impressive what can be done with a little knowledge of lighting, and a bit of post editing.
Apparently all the editing was done with stock features or Avairy.

Great shot!:good:

Those are some awesome shots indeed. But I think there are a couple of these threads already that this could be merged with.
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta

sly101s said:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lng0004/sets/72157633487686583/
Very good looking photos, taken with the HTC One. Impressive what can be done with a little knowledge of lighting, and a bit of post editing.
Apparently all the editing was done with stock features or Avairy.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Stunning!
Downloading Aviary now

The content and artistic value is impressive. The quality of the images are not really that mpressive though. You can tell its been taken on a mobile phone.

Rubbish
mwatson said:
The content and artistic value is impressive. The quality of the images are not really that mpressive though. You can tell its been taken on a mobile phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The only way to tell that these are taken on a mobile is if you knew before hand!
Great shots, that could have been taken with the majority of compact cameras
No shame in any of them!
Great shooting

Dal1970 said:
The only way to tell that these are taken on a mobile is if you knew before hand!
Great shots, that could have been taken with the majority of compact cameras
No shame in any of them!
Great shooting
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They way to tell is view them at their full size (in other words at 100%), its then VERY clear they were taken with a low MP phone cam. They aren't very sharp. Remember your monitor is lower resolution than the images, if you view them even full screen the reduction gives a sharpening effect, hides aliasing on lines, masks artefacts. The 'effects' applied also hide the Ones poor dynamic range.
They are very very well composed shots, and are great looking scenes, which is something the One does very well because it has a fast shutter and therefore little blur, but no they arent quality images from a technical standpoint. The problems with the One camera are still quite clear.

If you zoom in close on any shot you see the pixels - it is digital
I use a D7000 as my main camera and if you zoom in close enough is is pixelated
When you view these shots at a sensible size, there is nothing wrong with them. They will never blow up as large as my dSLR, but that is a different animal entirely.
the low light shots and indoor shot I took on my iPhone 4 are attrocious in comparison - took me ages to correct the colour casts and reduce the HUGE amount of noise

100% is not zoomed, its native. Its shortcomings are very evident at native resolution. I suspect those that don't notice are viewing on the phone or on a fairly small monitor. If thats the case, and you're happy, then fine.
Yes its great in low light, although some other phones manage quite well with HDR mode in low light, however in daylight the One is just a poor quality 4MP camera. Those images have done their best to hide it with great composition and effects, but its still evident.
One way to hide it a bit is to enlarge the picture in Photoshop, maybe to 16MP or more, then apply a smart sharpen of maybe 2.5 pixels and 75%, then drop back to 8MP. It cleans up a lot of the aliasing, artefacting and in effect interpolates a higher resolution.

Awesome shots welldone!
It always amazes me that some people expect a phone camera to match a DSLR.. i have both and yes the One isnt as good as my DSLR but it takes brilliant shots and is a whole lot easier to carry around in my pocket

sharpey said:
Awesome shots welldone!
It always amazes me that some people expect a phone camera to match a DSLR.. i have both and yes the One isnt as good as my DSLR but it takes brilliant shots and is a whole lot easier to carry around in my pocket
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No one expects it to match a DSLR, but to approach a 5 year old 5MP phone in daylight would be nice, and it just doesnt. This is why people are upset by the Ones camera. Its low light abilities are great, but its daylight abilities, especially moderate to long distance shots are very poor, even for 4 MP.

mwatson said:
The content and artistic value is impressive. The quality of the images are not really that mpressive though. You can tell its been taken on a mobile phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This.
The same photographer could have made equally amazing photos with any other smartphone or crappy point and shoot.
The value of those photos come from their composition and lighting, not the image quality. Its the old argument of photographer vs camera.
But yes, very nice photos

Those are some great photos, is that Chinatown in Manhattan?

rovex said:
No one expects it to match a DSLR, but to approach a 5 year old 5MP phone in daylight would be nice, and it just doesnt. This is why people are upset by the Ones camera. Its low light abilities are great, but its daylight abilities, especially moderate to long distance shots are very poor, even for 4 MP.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, see... this is where I have a problem: I think the daylight abilities are quite good, but that it really sucks in low light.... For me, all the photos I take in low light (ex. a street corner at night, with lamp posts around) it turns the black into blue noise and it takes some time and a few shots to get a focused photot, even with all the blue in the picture...

Impressive pics imo
Sent from my HTC One using Xparent BlueTapatalk 2

We have a photo sharing thread already. The OP in this thread put up some specific shots and claimed they were "impressive". There's plenty to discuss there without opening it up to random new shots with generic captions
Sent from my HTC One using xda app-developers app

NxNW said:
We have a photo sharing thread already. The OP in this thread put up some specific shots and claimed they were "impressive". There's plenty to discuss there without opening it up to random new shots with generic captions
Sent from my HTC One using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry wrong thread... Will delete.
Sent from my HTC One using Xparent BlueTapatalk 2

Yeah if you just want to share you can always go to
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2169626
Plenty of good shots in there..
Sent from my HTC One using xda app-developers app

Incredible quality. One of the main reason why I choose One. I can probably say goodbye to my digital camera now.

Flattered you think my shots are impressive. Sure, I agree that the photographer makes the difference (;p) but the HTC one camera tech really helps. I've yet to take a photo in low light only to find it shaky later. Never. Of course, sometimes sharpness comes with higher noise level but better than a shaky image.
I feel like I'm using an old camera with fixed wide angle lens when shooting with the HTC One. HDR what? ;p

[PHOTOS] Trip to Japan with the HTC One Camera - Pushing the Limits of the Camera

Hi all,
TL;DR - Pretty pictures taken with the HTC One here: Click
I've been very interested in the HTC One's camera ever since it was announced, as I believe that the philosophy behind the trade-offs made in its design are a step forward for the mobile phone camera industry.
I've recently returned from a trip to Japan and as an experiment, used the HTC One as my only camera (clearly not because my P&S was stolen two years ago!). I have taken nearly 8,000 shots over the 14 days I was in Japan and after nearly a hundred (if not more) hours spent in post-processing, I think I have a decent set of pictures.
I have annotated some of the pictures in a travel-journalistic manner. If you are a experienced traveller, I am probably not saying anything you do not already know. If you have never been to Japan, I hope they provide you with some insights.
A few observations I've made in the process of shooting said pictures:
The wide angle lens on the HTC One is wonderfully versatile, especially for landscape and architecture shots. Framing the shot is effortless and as it turns out, of utmost importance.
The most controversial aspect of the One's camera, the 4MP resolution does come with a very real drawback. You have little room in post-production to recover a badly framed shot. Cropping in post-production is often an unhappy compromise as you are left with less room to compensate for noise and blur. I would hazard to say that shooting with only the One for an extended period of time may be a great way to improve your composition skills.
The HTC One's camera software and auto-focus is fast and responsive, you can compose, re-focus/expose and shoot in a blink of an eye, which is something I took advantage of to take the multiple exposures required for the HDR pictures.
While no aspect of the HTC One's camera is exceptional, the package of a very fast f2.0 lens, optical image stabilization and above average sensor sensitivity means that vis-a-vis other mobile phone cameras, you will nail shot after shot in daylight and have a decent chance of grabbing something usable in low-light.
Will I do something like this again? Unlikely. The next time I can afford to travel, I will almost certainly be packing a decent camera. Do I regret the experience? Definitely not. Shooting with a camera like the One forces you to learn to frame your shots well. I like to think that technically, I am a decent photographer, but as far as composing a picture well, I have a long way to go.
Links to the various albums below. Sorry if you dislike Google+, but its easy to upload and annotate and it has a really clean interface. The albums are all public, so there is technically no need to sign in, but Google+ prompts you to login if you happen to be signed into another Google service. If you really want to avoid signing in, simply open the links in a incognito window.
If you are impatient, Kyoto and the Highlight albums are probably the best.
Comments, feedback and questions welcome. Wasn't sure if I should have created a new thread, if not, please merge into the photograph thread, thanks moderators.
Highlights
Tokyo (東京)
Odaiba (お台場)
Sensoji Shrine (浅草寺)
Meiji Shrine (明治神宮)
Tsukiji Fish Market (築地市場)
Hama-Rikyu Gardens (浜離宮恩賜庭園)
Osaka (大阪)
Osaka Aquarium Kaiyukan (海遊館)
Nara (奈良市)
Himeji (姫路市)
Kyoto (京都)
Kanazawa (金沢)
Shibuya Scramble Crossing (Youtube Video)
---
Photomatix Presets
edit: converted text to links
edit2: added link to timelapse of Shibuya scramble crossing
edit3: link to the photomatix presets I've used

Wow! Those are some very nice photos! Just goes to show how much power is behind our phone. It makes me want to go out and use my camera now.

Excellent shots! You clearly have a lot of talent! And that is some good post-processing too.
It would be great to know if you touched up the HDRs in post-production in anyway or are they mostly untouched?

ankanb said:
Excellent shots! You clearly have a lot of talent! And that is some good post-processing too.
It would be great to know if you touched up the HDRs in post-production in anyway or are they mostly untouched?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Most of the HDR shots are not in-camera HDR shots, they are multiple pictures of the same shot combined in post.
Every picture has been touched up in post. The natural looking ones are probably just simple lighting/contrast adjustments, the surreal looking ones took more effort.

Love Japan. Absolutely love Kyoto. You took some really good shots
One thing I am a bit disappointed with is the amount of noise the camera has. (still love it hough)
Some of your shots (especially the HDR) are way too noisy for my liking, but that's a matter of taste or sometimes plain nitpicking.
Which settings did you mainly use?
Did you leave the phone in charge of most of the settings or did you do it manually?

I agree, you took some beautiful shots!
Makes me want to travel. Lol.

MartinS13X said:
Love Japan. Absolutely love Kyoto. You took some really good shots
One thing I am a bit disappointed with is the amount of noise the camera has. (still love it hough)
Some of your shots (especially the HDR) are way too noisy for my liking, but that's a matter of taste or sometimes plain nitpicking.
Which settings did you mainly use?
Did you leave the phone in charge of most of the settings or did you do it manually?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
With respect to the noise, agreed. In most cases, with some work, as its only really bad for the uniform areas of the picture, the noise is entirely cleanable in post. But in most cases, I've chosen not to for effect. And the HDR process does tend to accentuate the noise and would typically not be visible if I had processed it for a natural look.
Still, it doesn't surprise me that much. I picked up a Fujifilm f100fd, a P&S as my last camera. It was supposed to be really good with low-light photography due to its excellent noise control. While clearly better then the HTC One, I found myself running into the same problems when post-processing the f100fd's shots vis the HTC One's shots. I think if you really want clean, low light shot, a DSLR/interchangeable lens camera with a fast prime lens is the only way to go, that or a tripod, depending on the picture you want.
Sharpness at -2 for virtually all the shots. Occasionally exposure at -1 is very useful, when you are sure that you can capture enough detail in a darker picture. You're essentially telling the camera, hey, I'm OK with a dark picture, take the next shot as fast as a shutter speed as you can. For that reason, almost all the aquarium shots are with exposure -1, as you don't really care about the walls of aquarium being properly exposed, you just want the fish exposed.
For the multiple shots needed for the HDR pictures, tapping at a bright spot, taking a picture, then quickly tapping at a dark spot, then taking another picture... The problem is that sometimes having the camera focus at a bright/dark spot means you screw up focus entirely.
The HTC One's backlight mode is incredibly useful when you want to take portrait shots with something bright in the background. I've used the landscape and HDR modes a few times, but I'm still not entirely sure what landscape mode gets me.
So... Long story short, normal mode, with sharpness at -2, with lots of tapping on the screen.
edit: oh, also, I manually flashed to 4.2.2, which meant that I had access to AF/AE lock. That came useful for the epic panorama of Himeji castle's surroundings.

Exposure -1 is indeed good in some cases. I've used that too.
I also want to try setting the ISO manually in dark photos as I believe there is room for lower ISO in some cases and the camera just increases it a lot.
I'm also not a fan of noisy, instagram-y photos like some of yours but you have some very nice shots.
I saw a link with a timelapse video. What's the deal with that? Is it yours?

Ooops, error.

Corduroy-21 said:
Exposure -1 is indeed good in some cases. I've used that too.
I also want to try setting the ISO manually in dark photos as I believe there is room for lower ISO in some cases and the camera just increases it a lot.
I'm also not a fan of noisy, instagram-y photos like some of yours but you have some very nice shots.
I saw a link with a timelapse video. What's the deal with that? Is it yours?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The timelapse video is mine yes. If it helps, the noise is inherent in the picture, and not added for "authenticity"
edit: I think the One generally makes good decisions when it comes to ISO, it priorities shutter speed over anything else, which I think, given the fact that in any low-light shot, you are going to get unhappy amounts of noise, is a good choice. A blurred shot is usually totally unusable.

shasderias said:
The timelapse video is mine yes.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How did you do it?
Did you use the One?

Corduroy-21 said:
How did you do it?
Did you use the One?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yup. Sideloaded the stock android camera, used the timelapse function. Waited...

The pictures you have posted are just amazing.
Although I have a HTC One but I don't take much pictures. You have motivated me to take more pictures from this phone now.
The filters you have used in this are given ones or some other application for that?

Wow. I just went through every album. Those all turned out amazing.

Great pics! :good:

rahulwadhwani said:
The pictures you have posted are just amazing.
Although I have a HTC One but I don't take much pictures. You have motivated me to take more pictures from this phone now.
The filters you have used in this are given ones or some other application for that?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No filters used, photos are all taken normally and edited in post. Photoshop for all editing, Photomatix for most of the HDR pictures.

shasderias said:
Yup. Sideloaded the stock android camera, used the timelapse function. Waited...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
which timelapse function did you use? How come my phone doesnt have it?

aceonetwothree said:
which timelapse function did you use? How come my phone doesnt have it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I didn't use the HTC One's camera app, I sideloaded the camera app from stock android (the one with photosphere) to do the timelapse.
Incidentally, the photospheres for some reason, turned out super low-res.

How do you manage to take photos with the phone using 3 exposure values, going into the menu and changing the value after each photo while keeping the phone perfectly still?

Love these! The Shibuya Scramble pictures gave me to flashbacks to The World Ends With You.

HTC One M9 Camera discussion (not for photo samples)

Albert Poon said:
May I ask you guys with M9 to take pics using manual mode? A tripod, phone holder, low ISO, long explosure to take some night views?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This was missing in the flickr album. Long exposure 1/4, 1/2 or 1s shots. And please use flickr so we can see exifs easily. board attachments and imgur strip exifs out. I notice the phonearena samples have no exifs in them at all.
Though i have to say i like this one. Just enough silhouette to set the mood.
ISO 80 and 1/40 WHAT!!! for late afternoon Seattle in winter. I can't tell if its HDR or not.
---------- Post added at 09:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:43 PM ----------
xxquicksh0txx said:
https://plus.google.com/10388377056...6126393456474303042&oid=103883770561517758752 Link to the beetle picture on his Google+ with a resolution of 1108 x 625. Definitely cropped/compressed
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Taken with VSCO cam, ISO 50, 1/268. So ample light.
Also used flash. Sharpness is set to soft.
A nice photo.
---------- Post added at 09:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:17 PM ----------
vegetaleb said:
Here a comparison of crop between M9 and Note 4 in not very low light conditions taken by the Tweakers review, you can clearly see the superiority of the Note 4 in the details like the logos of Goodyear and the wheel:
I know it's not final software but this M9 camera is giving the same results the SE C905 could give 6 years ago
M9
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
Note 4
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Note 4 is ISO 400, 1/10
M9 is ISO 640, 1/14
About half a f-stop difference.
What if the M9 tried to get that with ISO 300 ie ISO 200 +0.3 at 1/7 ? or go slower still ISO100+0.3 at 1/3 ? can't do these tricks with the note, slowest it will get is 1/8 and then its auto night mode kicks in which did not happen in this picture. S5 & note 4 have improved their low light capability over their predecessors in auto but i bet you can come close to matching it if not exceeding it with manual on m9.
Light in this shot is quite low btw.

th3 said:
This obsession is what makes every product better in every field, than its predecessor.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That pair is not as important as you think it is and that applies for all with good light.
Where this 'trounces' occurs is in low light. I've already said what needs to be done.
Without this obsession, there can be no better or worse product, and you'll still be saying "good enough" to the HTC Desire camera
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
with macros yeah i would because there is no difference there. I've seen three year old devices do excellent macros. Hint: macros are not a good demonstration of what the latest camera can do.
The only real innovation we've had in sensors is BSI over the last two years. More sensitive in low light. You couldn't do that with 2013 devices, m7 was the sole exception. The rest is processing, how much of it or lack thereof.
On a more general level the trick with these devices is to know when to compromise and when to be maximalist. There is no perfect device so what you end up with is what you can tolerate over what you cannot do without. Every device has this trade off. Unfortunately you are alone with making this decision. Unless you are lucky to find others whose requirements match yours closely. Now do you see why i said minor. its minor in a larger context.
What you're saying... 'Moving the goalpost' it's called. Common trick.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
no tricks. calling it straight.
i don't trust auto.That on some devices its always flawless is a myth. auto goes wrong even on dslrs. what will you do then ? blame the device or your own ignorance. better to understand why and what went wrong and then fix it. and you can.
What i'm sensing here is an unwillingness to do so. That is something else.
Your opinion is not supported by the data we all have.
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Click to collapse
That does not make what i said wrong. Its up to people here to provide that data. particularly low light with manual.
Its right because i've seen the same done with numerous devices already. This is how cameras work. They need light.
Give them that and you get a good shot. simple.
---------- Post added at 10:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:14 AM ----------
tryfound said:
No, your whole post is invalid. I'm testing AUTO, feel free to grace us all with your superior photography skills when you get your M9.
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Click to collapse
actually i should have said your tests were pointless and it was a waste of my time to go through them. test the note 4 in low light with manual in m9 that's what you should have done.
I wanted to see manual being used in the low light. You've got no excuses when the camera provides it. If you can't do that then its your problem not the m9.
bad auto does not mean bad camera. bad auto will be fixed. The Z1 took 3 months to get it right. What did people do, the lamers whined whereas the rest got busy with manual and got good shots from day 1.
make up your mind or sell.
---------- Post added at 10:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 AM ----------
vegetaleb said:
At last a camera comparison between M9 and Note4 http://www.phonearena.com/reviews/HTC-One-M9-vs-Samsung-Galaxy-Note-4_id3963/page/3
In daylight the Note 4 is significantly better, the M9 will smudge
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Show me smudge in daylight, i want to see how much. actually link the shots.
In low light even resized to 640x480 the M9 is very blurry and smudgy, the Note 4 is millions years ahead.
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Click to collapse
All the low light shots have the m9 using high iso in guess what auto. The reviewer did not even try manual and blurred one of the shots because he could not hold a 1/7.
Conclusion: unless you want to use your photos only from daylight situations and only resized to Facebook and other social medias (of course no crop at all) . you should consider the Note 4 as a very good choice of camera phone in every situations.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do you realise that to display on a HD device you only need 1MP or on a full HD it only takes 2MP. Anything more than that gets resampled.
You don't let facebook or anybody else resize it you do it yourself then upload wherever.

tryfound said:
You're so full of yourself. How dare I waste your precious time.
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Click to collapse
Look, you're not helping me, i'm helping you to help yourself as well as others in this thread.
Make up my mind or sell? Sell what? Some people here asked to see comparisons with the Note 4 and I gave them.
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And i'm pointing out why there were inadequate. They do not add anything above what reviews are saying.
I did not bother going through the imgur stuff since there are no exifs to see there. Assessing image quality let alone commenting without exifs is pointless.
To suggest that I should be tweaking manual settings on an M9 to achieve the quality of the Note 4's auto shots is beyond comprehension.
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Click to collapse
auto shots are average x average, is this what people base their opinions on ?
manual means you take a test auto shot then see whether you can improve it in manual. That is how you will exceed what the reviews have shown and we get to see the best this camera can do. This is what any owner that wants to improve and exploit manual is going to do over time.
Why someone would not want to improve his shots is beyond my comprehension.

tryfound said:
Some more shots with the M9, large res then small res second. Had to use imgur because of filesize so these are compressed images, don't bother zooming for details, some of the higher res images I took have been reduced to a size smaller than the 'small' res images due to their original filesize, I guess that's imgur's way of compressing.
http://imgur.com/PeWfBMx
http://imgur.com/CNrpmW7
http://imgur.com/fOi00v3
http://imgur.com/dMQ1yXV
http://imgur.com/JmvdebB
http://imgur.com/MnF3Fue
http://imgur.com/2AtDjvr (HDR)
http://imgur.com/mP0g0aP (HDR)
http://imgur.com/NApwPvt
http://imgur.com/U8yHyuV
http://imgur.com/i04j8vr
http://imgur.com/1FPUAw7
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Click to collapse
I just looked at images and they look really good. I am surprised M9 managed to capture that pristine detail I never seen before. White balance too looks so great not like previously green tint that was all over images.
One thing I am not able to find is camera data in adobe bridge and also colour space is untagged. That usually happens when photo being stripped of exif data. Have you by any chance gave some editing to them?
Thanks

I agree with a pack that camera should perform to the best on auto. If it doesn't , software has to be optimised if it's not then it's engineers faults Or hardware limitations.
it applies to the majority of the smartphone photographers . People want point and shoot.Even being enthusiast photographer and love digging my camera and phone camera I hate when auto underperforms when I simply want to take my phone out of the pocket and shoot.Every enthusiast can tweak but that defeats AUTO purpose .
There are average performers good and very good. Unfortunately M9 is not very good.Good ? Maybe....if light is favourable...at the moment it is consistently weak in certain situations. The usual wash out reminded me of the spill that when lets say camera lens gets in the studio shot or outside and for this purpose hood is used . This is one of the speculations I come up with. Somehow HTC phones consistently suffer from that. Could be they have same team of engineers that can't find the key to successful Software optimization or not so decent hardware just guessing here. Being visualphile that particular trade off with HTC devices just kills me.

nebulaoperator said:
I agree with a pack that camera should perform to the best on auto. If it doesn't , software has to be optimised if it's not then it's engineers faults Or hardware limitations.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
.
I've seen this issue with other devices. xperias camera software was never quite ready at launch. Lots of bashing. Took them a few months to get it right. Mostly auto. Then shots come out with lower ISO which you could have got yourself if you tried. Image quality is better now. why ? iso is lower. So if auto is taking high iso then low iso will get you a better shot.
So when people say camera is not working its auto. No other issues i can see so far. They will fix it but in the mean time if manual settings are tweaked you will get the results you want today. Most do not know how to do that or worse do not want to.
it applies to the majority of the smartphone photographers . People want point and shoot.Even being enthusiast photographer and love digging my camera and phone camera I hate when auto underperforms when I simply want to take my phone out of the pocket and shoot.Every enthusiast can tweak but that defeats AUTO purpose .
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
General advice i give to people who cant take photos is go with the koreans or apple. if you want more then look at others.
First time i came across an iphone camera after seeing the usual controls in nokias and android was wtf do i do with this. Some shots can't be got with auto. when there is no access to manual then you are stuck. take it or leave it. its only a phone camera, you're not supposed to do anything more. Who said so ?
Many people take shots and figuring out who is at fault is a tricky business. Of course the tendency is to blame the device but the person taking the shot is the most responsible, always.
There are average performers good and very good. Unfortunately M9 is not very good.Good ? Maybe....if light is favourable...at the moment it is consistently weak in certain situations.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Low light with auto. From what i've seen consistently boosts auto up. There are even night modes which to date i've not seen anybody even try. HELLO!
So auto is not picking these modes for some reason. Its a bug. But if you set it yourself then what is the result. Much better i bet.
The usual wash out reminded me of the spill that when lets say camera lens gets in the studio shot or outside and for this purpose hood is used .
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A lens hood decreases lens flare and saturates colours. Take a shot in shade of a sunny area. If you're getting lens flare then its clearly user error. Not just with this device but with any. I would just use my hand out of camera to block some of the light or avoid unwanted reflections. Here is a good example
https://www.flickr.com/photos/palmsolo/sets/72157651089646798/with/16274675233/
cloudy day, massive light box in the sky. Colours are all rich. Which is best. i cannot tell
interestingly enough the low end devices suffer less from this problem because the sensors are not as sensitive. They can take good shots in awful bright light which would be washed out with more capable sensors. Not much use indoors though.
This is one of the speculations I come up with. Somehow HTC phones consistently suffer from that. Could be they have same team of engineers that can't find the key to successful Software optimization or not so decent hardware just guessing here. Being visualphile that particular trade off with HTC devices just kills me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The ones typically from what i've seen blow out the sky. They are a little more quirky in getting those blue skies. Overexposed. HDR is one way to do it but it can be tricked also. i remember this work around from the m8 forum where this guy pointed close to the sun to lock exposure and then recomposed back on the scene. The picture was remarkably better. You don't have to do this all the time only in certain situations.

Review on bunch of cameras.
Gizmodo: The Best Smartphone Camera: Samsung Galaxy S6 Edition. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw4ZO08yA

tryfound said:
Some more shots with the M9, large res then small res second. Had to use imgur because of filesize so these are compressed images, don't bother zooming for details, some of the higher res images I took have been reduced to a size smaller than the 'small' res images due to their original filesize, I guess that's imgur's way of compressing.
http://imgur.com/PeWfBMx
http://imgur.com/CNrpmW7
http://imgur.com/fOi00v3
http://imgur.com/dMQ1yXV
http://imgur.com/JmvdebB
http://imgur.com/MnF3Fue
http://imgur.com/2AtDjvr (HDR)
http://imgur.com/mP0g0aP (HDR)
http://imgur.com/NApwPvt
http://imgur.com/U8yHyuV
http://imgur.com/i04j8vr
http://imgur.com/1FPUAw7
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
jauhien said:
Some yesterday snaps here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/we88grvt72bldy8/4PDA_REQUEST.zip?dl=0
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Click to collapse
One Twelve said:
.
Disclaimer: I should learn how to use quotes.
I've seen this issue with other devices. xperias camera software was never quite ready at launch. Lots of bashing. Took them a few months to get it right. Mostly auto. Then shots come out with lower ISO which you could have got yourself if you tried. Image quality is better now. why ? iso is lower. So if auto is taking high iso then low iso will get you a better shot.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Whether it's ISO OIS or else it does not stop camera to perform well. Take A look at Iphone 6 it works wonders. Low light is not on the par with M7 m8. The thing you have to understand , strongly camera orientated phone should not come with a sticker on the box " want a better image use manual"
[/QUOTE]So when people say camera is not working its auto. No other issues i can see so far. They will fix it but in the mean time if manual settings are tweaked you will get the results you want today. Most do not know how to do that or worse do not want to.[/QUOTE]
A lot people say because AUTO doesn't work. Why would I have buy "they will fix it" if I pay 500-600 GBP for a phone. It doesn't work like that. And in most cases software improved performance but only to a point .I own M7 and know it's weaknesses.And I don't want to use manual though I know my phone from inside to outside.
[/QUOTE]General advice i give to people who cant take photos is go with the koreans or apple. if you want more then look at others.
First time i came across an iphone camera after seeing the usual controls in nokias and android was wtf do i do with this. Some shots can't be got with auto. when there is no access to manual then you are stuck. take it or leave it. its only a phone camera, you're not supposed to do anything more. Who said so ?
Many people take shots and figuring out who is at fault is a tricky business. Of course the tendency is to blame the device but the person taking the shot is the most responsible, always.[/QUOTE]
I saw ifone users don't even know AE/AF lock exist till I showed. Iphone 6 has the simplest UI that can be invented I also call it Dummy proof. I think you can get an app to have access to tweaks option otherwise it's a bit limited to my taste. I can blame phone camera without long hesitation for two reasons: if hardware sucks or software or both. Then no amount of tweaks can help you. M7 is notorious for washouts, poor dynamic range. I found HDR was never a strong suite of M7 neither M8 or M9. However if you can tweak settings you might get away bringing images to photoshop. That's what I do. On the other hand only minority people are enthusiast like we are and the majority should be at least faulted for what smartphone manufacturer didn't do in the first place. If iphone , nokia, samsung(from 2014) proved there is a lot more that can be done with camera.
[/QUOTE]Low light with auto. From what i've seen consistently boosts auto up. There are even night modes which to date i've not seen anybody even try. HELLO!
So auto is not picking these modes for some reason. Its a bug. But if you set it yourself then what is the result. Much better i bet.[/QUOTE]
Low light was nevera weak spot for HTC One line(until now M9) it was cloudy weather condition with little contrast, also situation when I have half frame window in and the other half room. It would go into extremes overexpose the light in the window or underexposedarks barely visible. Sensor and software is not coping with dynamic range. I kind of like night mode but found it to slow in some situation due to the shutter speed so I just used normal mode it did great though. I wish I could try RAW mode but unfortunately I am selling my phone today ( Not sure if RAW will be brought to lollipop for M7)
[/QUOTE]A lens hood decreases lens flare and saturates colours. Take a shot in shade of a sunny area. If you're getting lens flare then its clearly user error. Not just with this device but with any. I would just use my hand out of camera to block some of the light or avoid unwanted reflections. Here is a good example
https://www.flickr.com/photos/palmsolo/sets/72157651089646798/with/16274675233/
cloudy day, massive light box in the sky. Colours are all rich. Which is best. i cannot tell
interestingly enough the low end devices suffer less from this problem because the sensors are not as sensitive. They can take good shots in awful bright light which would be washed out with more capable sensors. Not much use indoors though.[/QUOTE]
I worked with photographer who used hood for the headshots and it was game changer.
For instance Iphone6 is least prone to that error but most Android camera phones I came across are. I was surprised by Note 4 results and S6 I would never think they can do so well. So it must be bug or hardware or both as I mentioned earlier. Nice photos from M9 but WB is somehow a bit off sometimes on the blue side( couple of weeks before it was to yellow green Funny enough you are the first I came across that used hand to block the light I do that too. I guess we both come from the same/similar trade.
[/QUOTE]
The ones typically from what i've seen blow out the sky. They are a little more quirky in getting those blue skies. Overexposed. HDR is one way to do it but it can be tricked also. i remember this work around from the m8 forum where this guy pointed close to the sun to lock exposure and then recomposed back on the scene. The picture was remarkably better. You don't have to do this all the time only in certain situations.[/QUOTE]
AE/AF is a very handy tool. I am glad smartphones have this simple yet very effective feature.

Quadrider10 said:
Review on bunch of cameras.
Gizmodo: The Best Smartphone Camera: Samsung Galaxy S6 Edition. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw4ZO08yA
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I didn't think the M9 looked bad. Need to use a computer instead of my note 4
Sent from a mobile gadget...
---------- Post added at 05:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:52 PM ----------
And guys, chill out. I don't think M9 will have the best camera, but it will hopefully be enough. What I'm worried about is the speed of the camera and SOT. I will probably buy it anyway because I love HTCs mix.
Sent from a mobile gadget...

You're not helping anyone mate. Pig with lipstick is still a pig. No matter how much spin you are putting on it.
Everything you are saying is your subjective opinion not backed by any reviewer or already debunked. No data at all.
I don't see any fruit in continuing this back and forth "I think" or "you can do this in software" discussion with you. I, and 99% of users, only care about how the product performs out of the box. A few may go further, with manual. That's it.
Lame apologist excuses don't hide that. If you can do x with M9, you can also do better with S6/iP6/N4 etc starting from a better base.
I'll have the M9 31st March. Then, we'll see.
One Twelve said:
Look, you're not helping me, i'm helping you to help yourself as well as others in this thread.
And i'm pointing out why there were inadequate. They do not add anything above what reviews are saying.
I did not bother going through the imgur stuff since there are no exifs to see there. Assessing image quality let alone commenting without exifs is pointless.
auto shots are average x average, is this what people base their opinions on ?
manual means you take a test auto shot then see whether you can improve it in manual. That is how you will exceed what the reviews have shown and we get to see the best this camera can do. This is what any owner that wants to improve and exploit manual is going to do over time.
Why someone would not want to improve his shots is beyond my comprehension.
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Click to collapse
One Twelve said:
That pair is not as important as you think it is and that applies for all with good light.
Where this 'trounces' occurs is in low light. I've already said what needs to be done.
with macros yeah i would because there is no difference there. I've seen three year old devices do excellent macros. Hint: macros are not a good demonstration of what the latest camera can do.
The only real innovation we've had in sensors is BSI over the last two years. More sensitive in low light. You couldn't do that with 2013 devices, m7 was the sole exception. The rest is processing, how much of it or lack thereof.
On a more general level the trick with these devices is to know when to compromise and when to be maximalist. There is no perfect device so what you end up with is what you can tolerate over what you cannot do without. Every device has this trade off. Unfortunately you are alone with making this decision. Unless you are lucky to find others whose requirements match yours closely. Now do you see why i said minor. its minor in a larger context.
no tricks. calling it straight.
i don't trust auto.That on some devices its always flawless is a myth. auto goes wrong even on dslrs. what will you do then ? blame the device or your own ignorance. better to understand why and what went wrong and then fix it. and you can.
What i'm sensing here is an unwillingness to do so. That is something else.
That does not make what i said wrong. Its up to people here to provide that data. particularly low light with manual.
Its right because i've seen the same done with numerous devices already. This is how cameras work. They need light.
Give them that and you get a good shot. simple.
---------- Post added at 10:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:14 AM ----------
actually i should have said your tests were pointless and it was a waste of my time to go through them. test the note 4 in low light with manual in m9 that's what you should have done.
I wanted to see manual being used in the low light. You've got no excuses when the camera provides it. If you can't do that then its your problem not the m9.
bad auto does not mean bad camera. bad auto will be fixed. The Z1 took 3 months to get it right. What did people do, the lamers whined whereas the rest got busy with manual and got good shots from day 1.
make up your mind or sell.
---------- Post added at 10:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 AM ----------
Show me smudge in daylight, i want to see how much. actually link the shots.
All the low light shots have the m9 using high iso in guess what auto. The reviewer did not even try manual and blurred one of the shots because he could not hold a 1/7.
Do you realise that to display on a HD device you only need 1MP or on a full HD it only takes 2MP. Anything more than that gets resampled.
You don't let facebook or anybody else resize it you do it yourself then upload wherever.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sent using Tapatalk

th3 said:
You're not helping anyone mate. Pig with lipstick is still a pig. No matter how much spin you are putting on it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Went right to the end for the punchline
I'll have the M9 31st March. Then, we'll see.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hah so despite the s6 camera 'trouncing' the m9, you actually went in for what ? .....<drum roll>....the M9 <applause>
Confirms what i said earlier, the image quality differences weren't enough to deter you.
Lame apologist excuses don't hide that. If you can do x with M9, you can also do better with S6/iP6/N4 etc starting from a better base.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yeah so why didn't you get one of them then ? riiiiightt. Why the narrow obsessions with image quality somehow don't pan out in the end. Bigger forces at play.
With ip6+ and 3rd party camera with manual controls. you can improve over stock auto. With the same on the iP6 or even iP5x and a steady hand you can come close if not match the plus.
S6 & N4 or even the G3 don't offer shutter speed control so there is no way to tell how effective their OIS is, its just stated and i believe its there but no way to tell like say with the iP6+ that can do a 1/4 handheld. Night mode on the recent samsungs is good. Much improved over earlier versions. They boosting sensor gain and fiddling around. To get a similar shot would require an exposure two times longer with other devices including the m9. So you will have to work at it.
No idea when raw support will come for the above. But i bet you get it on the m9 before them. Your details issues will disappear at that point but you have to process each image yourself.
Everything you are saying is your subjective opinion not backed by any reviewer or already debunked. No data at all.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So you do not understand that delaying shutter and lowering iso will improve image quality in low light ? This applies only with stationary subjects btw, forget doing it with people or anything that won't sit still.
Sop with any camera that allows manual control, i can show you manual lumia 930 vs note 4 where it gets pretty close and auto did not. When more people post later you'll see what i mean.
I'm most interested in the low light shots and rarely bother with daylight comparisons because they are pretty similar. In fact my problem with smartphone cameras is too much detail strange as that may sound. because it makes isolating subjects harder. Everything is so damn clear. Because its the equivalent of an f11 lens in 35mm speak. Depth of field is deeper. Great for macros but not others.
I don't see any fruit in continuing this back and forth "I think" or "you can do this in software" discussion with you. I, and 99% of users, only care about how the product performs out of the box. A few may go further, with manual. That's it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you want better photos what i said works. 99% or not is meaningless. This is xda, do 99 % care about rooting, custom firmwares, or any number of hacks people share here ? So what 99% are you referring to and why do they matter. If anything i'm more interested in the 1%.
what i've said wrt to manual is no different. In fact its common knowledge to anyone who has a clue.
---------- Post added at 04:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:01 AM ----------
*Emix* said:
https://curved.de/news/galaxy-s6-one-m9-iphone-6-im-grossen-kameravergleich-236192
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Why they didn't use iP6+ ?
1. night shots all soft because iso got boosted on m9. 2nd shot wrong wb for m9. 4th shot all have blown lights, cannot do this without blending.
2. again iso got boosted on m9. second selfie, because background is brighter so iso drops and looks normal.
3. is about where you set exposure.
4. macros are similar. contrast can be improved in post.
5. panoramas, heh all not to my liking because of cylindrical projection. no straight horizontals with such a wide fov.
6. food, can be improved in post or use manual. That ISO is maybe close to 600 try to get it at half.

curiousgeorge1893 said:
Not quite on topic but I've got an M8 coming, I'm ditching my Xperia Z2 for it, is that a good idea do you think?
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Click to collapse
What is it about the Z2 that you don't like ? You'd be trading fantastic video stabilisation for none.
The scene modes should help in low light if you use them right. However the lack of shutter control can be frustrating. A quick tweak can't be done. More trial & error.
I was put off by the 4MP camera as i admit I like to zoom and crop, however I like a phone that is good in lowlight.
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Click to collapse
What does 4MP do ? sharpens the mind. You have to think more carefully about what you want to get it right. If you want to zoom & crop then you need to be closer to your subject. if you can't do that then 4MP is out.
Also, I like a phone that offers manual controls and shutter speed, HTC phones are the only ones that do this plus a like a phone that has a good flash and takes photos quickly.
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Click to collapse
m8 is a fast shooter in auto. But this gap has been closed with the S6 and the S5 is fast too. Have you considered them ? No shutter control though. Given what they've done may or may not be that critical. These samsungs are primarily auto shooters. If they get what you want great, if not don't complain because you can't do much.
As for similar manual controls the hybrid zooms had them first and optical zoom is a plus. crop in camera not afterwards. K zoom or wait for the successor. Slower though. And apertures are smaller. 3.1 all the way to 6.3. Working OIS.
I was planning on getting a secondhand M9 later in the year but to be honest I am disappointed as I feel that HTC have go fowards then 2 steps backwards with the M9 camera. Whilst it's great it has a higher resolution, the f/2.0 aperature in the M7 and M8 is now f/2.2 on the M9, in my opinion it should have been f/2.0 or f/1.9, also lack of OIS is disappointing and it seems lowlight on the M9 isn't as good as the M8? Very disappointing if so.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The difference between f2.0 and 2.2 is a quarter a f-stop. That's like getting a shot at ISO 200 instead of 250. Or 1/50 instead of 1/40. Its insignficant as one or the other parameter will compensate anyway so not really as notable as reviewers make out.
However the m9 isn't as fast a camera as its predecessors.See the camera speed benchmark. Almost twice as slow as the m8. And the Z2 is faster than the m9. Does this matter ? only if you're rushed. And if you are you're not going to get very good shots to begin with. Is the choice no shot or passable. In that case look at an advanced compact with a 1 inch sensor. Much more light, faster lens and better quality. For the same money.

BoneXDA said:
I do notice the white balance shifting sometimes on the goldish side around sunlit areas, and the M9 tends to underexpose in such conditions.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've noticed twice that it gets confused with halogen and neon lights, turning cream and red into green. With a yellow i can see how green can happen by wb adding blue, so just need to use a fluorescent wb or more. But cream into green is inexplicable for me. If its a bug then only a firmware update can fix it.
---------- Post added at 08:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:25 PM ----------
curiousgeorge1893 said:
I like the Z2 but not the post processing, it smudges details, I read on here that the Z3 does the same?
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Click to collapse
Whenever camera has to produce a jpg and do it fast it has to make a call between preserving detail (ie more noise) or smoothness (less noise). I've seen smudging happen with vegetation, it happens with all jpg outputting devices to varying degrees. To make larger features look good means smaller are going to appear less sharp. Must have the lowest ISO with a longer shutter that means anything that moves is out unless light is good or smudging gets worse.
Only way is raw but you have to process every image yourself, and its a much bigger file so it will be slower than 4mp jpg.
Compare these two from nexus 5. Jpg vs processed RAW. Pull the full resolution and pixel peep all you want.
The originals come from fv5 site.
You control what should be more in detail or not instead of some average one size fits all algorithm with an impossible task that is optimised for speed by trading off image quality. Image quality here isn't file size but a function of how much luminance and chroma noise is preserved or not.
That algorithm and its implementation is the source of lots of heated argument over which is the better camera. Silly really.

SPreston2001 said:
The whole camera comparison may be silly, but 90% of users just want to pick up the phone and snap good pics. Most users don't fiddle around with the camera settings or even know what they do for that matter lol. All they see are which photos look the best when they pick up their phone and take a pic. The M9 camera seems to be alot better than the M8s camera but it still tends to fall behind Apples and Samsungs imaging abilities.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Then those people should stick with the brands mentioned. Those brands are for people with no interest in photography. WHAT took the shot is more important than WHO took it. That is the mindset auto everything encourages, what did the owner do, just press a button. Still I would not be surprised to find people even on those boards complaining about something or the other.
Where i'm coming from is what if you don't want those brands for whatever reasons. What then ?
You wait for firmware upgrades and you learn how to get better shots. What went wrong and how to get around it.
My attitude is you are stuck with this thing and you are going to have to make the best of it. Few months later you will find people here doing just that. A review can never match it.

One Twelve said:
Then those people should stick with the brands mentioned. Those brands are for people with no interest in photography. WHAT took the shot is more important than WHO took it. That is the mindset auto everything encourages, what did the owner do, just press a button. Still I would not be surprised to find people even on those boards complaining about something or the other.
Where i'm coming from is what if you don't want those brands for whatever reasons. What then ?
You wait for firmware upgrades and you learn how to get better shots. What went wrong and how to get around it.
My attitude is you are stuck with this thing and you are going to have to make the best of it. Few months later you will find people here doing just that. A review can never match it.
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So HTC phones are for people who have interest in photography?? Lol they usually have the worst cameras amongst flagship devices yet theyre for photography minded people?? You act as of HTC is the only manufacturer that has the ability to tweak the camera settings. Most "serious" photographers won't use a cellphone to take a pic. The whole idea of cell cams is to capture quick and beautiful everyday life pictures. The ability to tweak the settings is just a added bonus for those who want to get a little more serious with it.
But to each his own I guess. When it comes to cell cams I just wanna pull it, out take a pic, and expect it to look good. If tweaking the settings to get the perfect shot is for you then that's fine. But all I'm saying is those same things can be done with other manufacturers cams too.

gavinfabl said:
This is a photos thread. We need photos! The weather for another day is gales and heavy rain here, so ruined my planned day of shooting again. Using manual settings I have captured some good shots (but private photos of family). Lowering resolution down a fraction helps in lower light. Auto is OK but when I take control even with a single tweak the difference is noticeable. I've used the S6 and S6 Edge and compared it with my Note 4. The S6 has a good auto mode.
This is my S6 and S6 Edge camera shots , and vs Note 4 camera. http://gavinsgadgets.com/2015/03/19...sung-galaxy-s6-and-s6-edge-plus-camera-shots/
I will have more in depth analysis when it's stops raining .....
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Can't say my experience with the s6 / edge was similar. On the camera front yes the camera is fast. But I found a huge issue with white balance and somewhat heavier than normal post processing (pretty evident when you look at the photos on a camera). The problem is even in pro mode, the camera still struggles with white balance. I am a white balance whore to be honest and when I see a camera struggle, I shudder.
Touchwiz lagged for me. Immensely. I kept flicking through the homescreen, not many widgets above the stock ones, and there were multiple times the device just locked up. Even after rebooting the device quite a few times, there was lag. Off topic, I watched the verge podcast recently and they also affirmed a lot of the lag I experienced with my model.
So far, I'm semi disappointed. The devices are light (like physically, I expected something much heavier). The GS6 felt boxy and somewhat sharper for my tastes while the Edge just "fit" in my hand like a really nice glove. I was stunned that the edge was the more interesting feeling device. Both devices are fingerprint magnets though almost to the point of being disgusting. After 10 minutes of handling, I was in awe with the amount of smudges and oil the back of the device accrued from general handling.
Handling is something that the Edge excels in for the most part. It feels "natural" to swipe at an edge point and get a hamburg menu from Google. And you do in GMAIL, Google Play, and a myriad of other areas. It just feels like touchwiz didn't necessarily provide too many gesture driven tasks that would really take benefit of the edge display. II mean sure you get the call context menus and the light up gimmick, but that's about it sadly. The shame of it all is that above that, the GS6 is a beautiful iphone 5-5s ripoff and the Edge is something of a quagmire begging for a developer to put it to good use. It can be obtrusive but not so much to the point it ruins the user experience.
Overall, I'm left somewhat underwhelmed with the devices. Sure, the screen is gorgeous with marvelous viewing angle fitting for a flagship. But it feels like the GS6 / edge is a iterative step in a unique and bold direction that didn't fully deliver.
Shame actually. Most people will love the GS6 / Edge. Me, I'll be forever disappoint

SPreston2001 said:
So HTC phones are for people who have interest in photography??
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What purpose is there to provide manual controls then ? nokia started this btw.
Lol they usually have the worst cameras amongst flagship devices yet theyre for photography minded people??
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its a mindset that comes naturally to those that are into photography. They are going to try a great deal more before throwing in the towel.
Very obvious when i see Jesse's photos. You make the shot not the camera. newbies whenever they see a nice photo always want to know what camera took the shot. The person, well he just clicked. How hard could it be. They like to hide behind their cameras. Often i see shots that are horribly taken and well it was the camera's fault.
HTC is a bad camera with people who cannot take a photo. I've never bought into the 4MP was bad. A full HD screen can only display 2MP anyway. if you're not zooming or need to then you're focus is on how nice the shot looks rather than whether you can count hairs on somebody's head. I've seen people post nice photos here. if you need to crop your photos then you ain't thinking about your shots or your use case exceeds what 4MP can provide.
You act as of HTC is the only manufacturer that has the ability to tweak the camera settings.
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lets be clear on what manual settings i'm referring to here. Who else offers shutter speed control ?
apple only woke up to the fact in their latest OS. prior to which you could do squat cos um turtle neck deemed it unecessary. Nokia had them early and the cheapest lumias 635 ? do too. samsungs don't not even in their latest. neither does moto, or LG which went backwards with the G3 or Sony. The Chinese provide some more. So yeah HTC since the m8 was the only android offering on a fixed focal lens that offered shutter control. Makes it easy to fix things if you were so inclined. Samsung's galaxy camera is the only other that can claim to have had it first on android earlier and its a compact.
Most "serious" photographers won't use a cellphone to take a pic. The whole idea of cell cams is to capture quick and beautiful everyday life pictures. The ability to tweak the settings is just a added bonus for those who want to get a little more serious with it.
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A cam is a cam and you can learn photography with any cam and play more with one that allows manual settings. I don't have a DSLR because i've not got to the point where i need one. I take shots every day and i like to tweak them because auto cant get it right. Its very normal to have access if not always necessary. But i'd rather have them and not need them than the other way around.
If you drive a stick shift you won't enjoy driving a cruiser.
But to each his own I guess. When it comes to cell cams I just wanna pull it, out take a pic, and expect it to look good. If tweaking the settings to get the perfect shot is for you then that's fine. But all I'm saying is those same things can be done with other manufacturers cams too.
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I never expect it to look good, if it does then conditions were perfect and i was lucky, i will usually take a auto shot and if it fine leave it at that or try to tweak things about and take a couple more. I always try to take more than one. A phone is going to get thrown into so many varied situations that would challenge a pro. To expect to get it right in one take with a phone camera when pointing at anything you can think of isn't realistic.

nebulaoperator said:
Whether it's ISO OIS or else it does not stop camera to perform well. Take A look at Iphone 6 it works wonders. Low light is not on the par with M7 m8. The thing you have to understand , strongly camera orientated phone should not come with a sticker on the box " want a better image use manual"
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A tweak here or there will always improve a shot. How many people know that. Then there is the question of will. if its there and you don't use it then its not the camera's fault. It is there for flexibility.
iphone 6 no, but 6+ will get shots at 1/4. Apple thinks slower than 1/12 is not feasible for iP6. To go slower than 1/4 have to use 3rd party soft to tweak things. iphone camera has always been capable but until ios8 there was no way to access camera parameters so low light was never good.
I saw ifone users don't even know AE/AF lock exist till I showed. Iphone 6 has the simplest UI that can be invented I also call it Dummy proof. I think you can get an app to have access to tweaks option otherwise it's a bit limited to my taste.
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yes its useful there is also a way to do some exposure comp but it changes metering to spot from average or whatever apple equivalent is. A review was comparing 6 & 6+ and saying photos looked better with 6+ until i saw the exifs and pointed out both were using different metering. So of course shots will look different.
With the latest ios you have much more options than before. Curious apple did a u turn there. But not stock just with 3rd party software.
A lot people say because AUTO doesn't work. Why would I have buy "they will fix it" if I pay 500-600 GBP for a phone. It doesn't work like that. And in most cases software improved performance but only to a point .
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So wait for a few months then decide. As for firmware improvements. If you take a shot with firmware a at ISO 200 and compare with firmware b at ISO 200, there will be little difference.
What i mean is they can lower ISO for lower light shots so it does not boost it so high. This will improve auto some. But to go further it requires manual. Possible now, if somebody would try.
They can improve white balance with auto but it will get tricked some times so only up to a point.
I can blame phone camera without long hesitation for two reasons: if hardware sucks or software or both. Then no amount of tweaks can help you. M7 is notorious for washouts, poor dynamic range. I found HDR was never a strong suite of M7 neither M8 or M9. However if you can tweak settings you might get away bringing images to photoshop. That's what I do. On the other hand only minority people are enthusiast like we are and the majority should be at least faulted for what smartphone manufacturer didn't do in the first place. If iphone , nokia, samsung(from 2014) proved there is a lot more that can be done with camera.
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They are trying to make it easy for the average person in the hope of selling more products. The traditional way is to learn how to use the product. I know the washouts you mean, blown skies etc. But once a person is aware of that you can improve it.
Low light was nevera weak spot for HTC One line(until now M9) it was cloudy weather condition with little contrast, also situation when I have half frame window in and the other half room. It would go into extremes overexpose the light in the window or underexposedarks barely visible. Sensor and software is not coping with dynamic range. I kind of like night mode but found it to slow in some situation due to the shutter speed so I just used normal mode it did great though. I wish I could try RAW mode but unfortunately I am selling my phone today ( Not sure if RAW will be brought to lollipop for M7)
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So what are you getting ?
freedcam can already output raw on m7 & m8 and by the looks of it m9 too. htc made this easy.
I worked with photographer who used hood for the headshots and it was game changer.
For instance Iphone6 is least prone to that error but most Android camera phones I came across are. I was surprised by Note 4 results and S6 I would never think they can do so well. So it must be bug or hardware or both as I mentioned earlier. Nice photos from M9 but WB is somehow a bit off sometimes on the blue side( couple of weeks before it was to yellow green Funny enough you are the first I came across that used hand to block the light I do that too. I guess we both come from the same/similar trade.
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It was an accidental discovery. I was taking shot of somebody outside the house from inside with a tab (!) and wondered why the clothes were so saturated.
There is something up with the m9's WB i can see from numerous photos. But nobody is trying manual to fix it.
Was looking at latest world press photo contest. Many with pro dslrs and i saw one person entered an iphone photo and its in the list of winners. Out of 95k entries !!! smartphone photo..Can you believe it

Lol this thread is very entertaining to say the least

twoeleven99 said:
Lol this thread is very entertaining to say the least
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So what's your take on the M9 pictures, if I may ask?
Sent using Tapatalk

camera tips

Coming from the note 7, I've gotten used to setting it on auto, taking a pic, and getting great pictures... Something I'm not seeing with the v20.
Any tips or settings that may help?
Low light pics area slow to focus and results are so so.
Pictures of moving people even in medium light are blurred

I'll try to write something up later. How much photo experience do you have? How much digital photo knowledge base do you have? (So I know what starting point to use. Photography is a lot of art meets science. It's probably one of the better examples of a right and left brain balance.)

Hmm..I knowthat shutter speed and aperture go together. How they let more more light in by opening longer or wider.
I've tried taking pictures using auto and manual (no change in any settings)..and they come out similar. Except auto seems to do a better job auto focusing.

There's a setting buried in the menu to help with tracking. Make sure you have that on. Aperture is locked down on cellphones so you only really get to play with shutter speed and ISO. Unfortunately, as ISO goes up, so does the noise coming off the sensor. So you really have to balance getting a shutter speed that's just fast enough without getting too crazy with the ISO. This will apply to all cellphones no matter what anyone tries to tell you. (And this is why the pros will always shoot with full frame DSLR's. Much larger sensor, better noise handling, can really crank up the ISO with little ill effect.)
If you're getting blurring motion, you need a faster shutter speed which means higher ISO..... or...... you can practice the old school way and get a cool effect by practicing tracking your subject by hand. I practiced with my DSLR by tracking swallows and dragonflies in flight. For a phone, I think kids running around is about the equivalent. It's difficult but highly rewarding once you get it.
Light, and lots of it, will be your friend on small sensors like these. Cranking up the ISO for darker situations means one of two things will happen. A) You will get a lot of noise from the gain applied to the signal coming off of the sensor. Depending on the quality of the noise coming off of it, this can either be bad or good. For a while, Nikon was known for having a noise quality at higher ISO's that made for excellent B&W's. I'm actually investigating that with this camera as I think it has potential. B) Aggressive noise reduction is applied to the image and it butter faces the heck out of an image and turns it all water color. I have to zoom in way too far than one should before I see this happening. So it looks like noise reduction is being applied on a smaller scale which leaves better detail and might be why I'm seeing an agreeable noise profile. A few more test shots are needed though.
I will note that this all applies to the main shooting assembly (the 16mp f1.8 sensor). The wide shooting assembly is a smaller sensor and the aperture is a smaller f2.4. So it'll require a higher ISO for the same shutter speed and it's going to be noisier shot for shot no matter what and it isn't as nice of a noise profile as the main sensor.

Camera very disappointing. My G3 takes far more better pictures than this. Do you think any software updates could improve on the quality?

justthefacts said:
Camera very disappointing. My G3 takes far more better pictures than this. Do you think any software updates could improve on the quality?
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They could, maybe. Depends. What are you disappointed in exactly?

Auto mode. It sucks. 2 generation old note4 can take far better pictures on auto. LG has the chops to make a great camera so wtf happened on this $800 phone?

@rbiter said:
Auto mode. It sucks. 2 generation old note4 can take far better pictures on auto. LG has the chops to make a great camera so wtf happened on this $800 phone?
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Manual mode. Manual mode happened and it's pretty damn good. A bit more manual control would make it great. (Let me decide when image stabilization is on, for instance.) This phone wasn't really about auto. That's what the Pixel is about to every degree. The V20 is about people who want to have more control over their content creation without getting too overboard.

CHH2 said:
Manual mode. Manual mode happened and it's pretty damn good. A bit more manual control would make it great. (Let me decide when image stabilization is on, for instance.) This phone wasn't really about auto. That's what the Pixel is about to every degree. The V20 is about people who want to have more control over their content creation without getting too overboard.
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I don't mind that. It's just auto can Bork up a picture real quick. Picking the right focus point helps with light situations a lot but still auto should be more decent out of the box. Why? Because half the rest you need to take the shot right away. Manual is fine and not too much complaints about it besides the voice trigger turning itself off all the time. If the manual mode was terrible too I'd pro a lot have returned the phone already. Manual, the audio, battery life, swappable battery and reception help make up for auto's inconsistency.

CHH2 said:
Manual mode. Manual mode happened and it's pretty damn good. A bit more manual control would make it great. (Let me decide when image stabilization is on, for instance.) This phone wasn't really about auto. That's what the Pixel is about to every degree. The V20 is about people who want to have more control over their content creation without getting too overboard.
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I want more control over the content of my phone but yet. I can not root my phone on Sprint.[emoji35]
Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk

@rbiter said:
I don't mind that. It's just auto can Bork up a picture real quick. Picking the right focus point helps with light situations a lot but still auto should be more decent out of the box. Why? Because half the rest you need to take the shot right away. Manual is fine and not too much complaints about it besides the voice trigger turning itself off all the time. If the manual mode was terrible too I'd pro a lot have returned the phone already. Manual, the audio, battery life, swappable battery and reception help make up for auto's inconsistency.
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Auto is consistent. You just have to understand what's going on. I was really hoping that auto would have EV adjustment so we could change the bias of the exposure. The camera wants to expose a little bright to help control noise that you'll get from a small sensor. I'll take a bit of noise for a darker exposure. So to that end, I'll probably shoot manual. All I really need to do is set a minimum shutter speed and adjust ISO from there when I open the camera. That can all occur pretty fast.
jamice4u said:
I want more control over the content of my phone but yet. I can not root my phone on Sprint.[emoji35]
Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk
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Um, you don't need root for content control. A) Your complaint needs to be in the proper thread. This is about photo/video, not root. B) Sprint. (I live in their HQ city and see their CEO regularly at some of my favorite haunts. Don't expect any miracles from Sprint. It's a top down issue.)

My opinion, the camera as a hardware is good, however, LG needs to upgrade the camera app, specially with auto mood, this coming from a user that have used Samsung for a very long time, and now very disappointing with LG camera
i hope LG is reading this, and can push that kind of update soon..

Amjad.AbdulGhani said:
My opinion, the camera as a hardware is good, however, LG needs to upgrade the camera app, specially with auto mood, this coming from a user that have used Samsung for a very long time, and now very disappointing with LG camera
i hope LG is reading this, and can push that kind of update soon..
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I agree. I came from the note 3 and i was taking side by side and the note 3 was taking better pics! Not sure if there's an issue with my v20 but ilI'lll be returning it today. Not impressed at all

CHH2 said:
Auto is consistent. You just have to understand what's going on. I was really hoping that auto would have EV adjustment so we could change the bias of the exposure. The camera wants to expose a little bright to help control noise that you'll get from a small sensor. I'll take a bit of noise for a darker exposure. So to that end, I'll probably shoot manual. All I really need to do is set a minimum shutter speed and adjust ISO from there when I open the camera. That can all occur pretty fast.
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Auto is NOT consistent. With that being said, I've been getting better pictures, but still taking multiple pictures with different focal points to make sure I get at least one good pic of what I want. Auto works well sometimes, just needs consistency. Obviously the camera is capable of taking great pictures in almost any setting. Even low light. The hardest is when you have a very bright source of light somewhere and auto doesn't do well unless you find the right focal point, and that being where I have to take multiple pics the most. Manual can work too, but I'm not even an amateur photographer so I've been practicing to get better pictures with less adjusting. And by that I mean dialing it in less and getting the pic I want faster from practice and skill rather than paying around experimenting. It's been a learning curve for me and quite a few others. I'm quite sure a firmware update can help.
Also, I am used to my note 4 taking g great pics with auto. Also used to the extra sharpening. I've noticed the extra sharpening and do prefer more natural pictures like the lg or iPhones take. But otoh, many of my pictures at work benefit from the extra sharpening big time and kind of why I don't mind it. That extra sharpening is very very useful when magnification is needed at magnifying glass level and sometimes almost microscopic levels for very fine print, certain details on a board or power supply and especially both those reasons I'm very hard to reach places without taking everything apart.
With that being said, I also wish LG would add a toggle for sharpening when processing the pictures in auto and manual mode. Even though LG leans towards more natural pictures, a sharpen toggle would help a lot. I've just decided to keep using my v20 as a daily driver by a very slim margin. Miss my amoled and adblocking. Don't miss all the extra tweaking I had to do manually along with xposed to get my note4 the way I wanted. LG has caught up alot in their UI. It used to be terrible. But with the theme and some of the options I could live with root just to get adblocking. But when I do root I will be doing so.e tweaking g to get more battery life. And hopefully a kind developer will make a kernel with only voltage control enabled so I can under volt my CPU some.

The problem is the massive herd of Samsung users (I am one also) that were able to just point and shoot. The software did the all the work on the sammy phones. With the V20 we have to work a little to get a great picture. I noticed it today when taking a picture for of my receipts for the headphone deal.

@rbiter said:
Auto is NOT consistent. With that being said, I've been getting better pictures, but still taking multiple pictures with different focal points to make sure I get at least one good pic of what I want. Auto works well sometimes, just needs consistency. Obviously the camera is capable of taking great pictures in almost any setting. Even low light. The hardest is when you have a very bright source of light somewhere and auto doesn't do well unless you find the right focal point, and that being where I have to take multiple pics the most. Manual can work too, but I'm not even an amateur photographer so I've been practicing to get better pictures with less adjusting. And by that I mean dialing it in less and getting the pic I want faster from practice and skill rather than paying around experimenting. It's been a learning curve for me and quite a few others. I'm quite sure a firmware update can help.
Also, I am used to my note 4 taking g great pics with auto. Also used to the extra sharpening. I've noticed the extra sharpening and do prefer more natural pictures like the lg or iPhones take. But otoh, many of my pictures at work benefit from the extra sharpening big time and kind of why I don't mind it. That extra sharpening is very very useful when magnification is needed at magnifying glass level and sometimes almost microscopic levels for very fine print, certain details on a board or power supply and especially both those reasons I'm very hard to reach places without taking everything apart.
With that being said, I also wish LG would add a toggle for sharpening when processing the pictures in auto and manual mode. Even though LG leans towards more natural pictures, a sharpen toggle would help a lot. I've just decided to keep using my v20 as a daily driver by a very slim margin. Miss my amoled and adblocking. Don't miss all the extra tweaking I had to do manually along with xposed to get my note4 the way I wanted. LG has caught up alot in their UI. It used to be terrible. But with the theme and some of the options I could live with root just to get adblocking. But when I do root I will be doing so.e tweaking g to get more battery life. And hopefully a kind developer will make a kernel with only voltage control enabled so I can under volt my CPU some.
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It is pretty consistent, you just have to understand what it is consistently doing. It's just running a program like anything else. It doesn't do things on a wild hair. That said, if you want more sharpening, I highly suggest Snapseed. It's a free app after Google bought the parent company Nik. Nik makes some of the best plug-ins for professional editing of photos. This is probably one of the more powerful photo editing apps you can get on a phone. It even edits RAW photos from the V20.
Madelynn28 said:
The problem is the massive herd of Samsung users (I am one also) that were able to just point and shoot. The software did the all the work on the sammy phones. With the V20 we have to work a little to get a great picture. I noticed it today when taking a picture for of my receipts for the headphone deal.
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I guess since I do a lot of photo work, I'm used to the idea that no camera will ever spit out a shot that's perfect right out of the box, auto or not. (Not even the three Samsungs I owned, they needed just as much adjustment as any other phone.) All images out of a camera can and do need work. For me, I feel that I don't really need to do anything out of my ordinary workflow to get images I want with the V20. I'm actually really looking forward to capturing some more classic images with this phone that haven't been achievable in recent times by most sensors these days.

It gives you a lot more options but most people don't want that. Hell I don't even want that. If I am taking a picture with my phone it just needs to get the job done. Anything else I would be using my 80D. By the way thanks for understanding and decoding those terrible sentences I wrote.

Madelynn28 said:
It gives you a lot more options but most people don't want that. Hell I don't even want that. If I am taking a picture with my phone it just needs to get the job done. Anything else I would be using my 80D. By the way thanks for understanding and decoding those terrible sentences I wrote.
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That's the thing though, this phone is made for content creators, not for someone who wants to just shoot in auto all the time. That's what iPhones and Pixels are for, not this phone. This is for those who want and know how to control photo, video and audio creation. I've got full frame DSLRs, smaller mirrorless cameras but I also like to have control over my cellphone so this was a great step in my opinion.

That's fine, but a lot of people were forced here by the Note 7 blowing up. Android people don't want iPhones and not many people buy their phones outright (Pixel). When the top gun gets taken out it makes for a weird environment when people are forced to fill gaps with things they really don't want. There is the edge 7 but it's smaller and the edge screen was trash. Like I said it's a solid phone and is faster than the Note 7. It's just missing somethings I am used too.