Related
It's been speculated that Android has more apps that actually work on Honeycomb tablets than does iOS on the iPad. This links talks about the growth of the Android Marketplace:
http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/study_android_surpass_ios_app_count_soon
Does anyone know if this is true considering most iPhone apps will not run properly on the iPad, i.e.does not fill the screen?
There are bazillions of I pad specific apps so I don't know what to tell you.
I think one of the main things that constantly gets lost is the whole quantity vs quality discussion. Sure iOS has a ton of apps, but how many of them are actually unique and not serving the same purpose as another app out there?
When it comes down to it Android, and tablets in particular, aren't far off from having the same core apps that iOS has available to it. If anything they are more functional apps since Android makes a lot more available to devs.
I miss more iOS apps on my Xoom then Android app on my iOS devices. I also think the iOS apps has a bit higher quality.
They look and "feel" better. But none of them has widgets.
Sent from my MZ604 using XDA Premium App
streetmapp said:
I think one of the main things that constantly gets lost is the whole quantity vs quality discussion. Sure iOS has a ton of apps, but how many of them are actually unique and not serving the same purpose as another app out there?
When it comes down to it Android, and tablets in particular, aren't far off from having the same core apps that iOS has available to it. If anything they are more functional apps since Android makes a lot more available to devs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
True, but to play devil's advocate, you could also say that the pseudo-arbitrary selection process inherent to Apple's App Store limits useless apps a little bit. (Yes, I know there are thousands of 'fart apps' on their store as well.)
In the end, I think that not having the duplicate functionality clause helps the Android Market have a few more 'gems' than would be possible on the iOS App Store. Things like Tasker, Swype, and true replacement browsers (not using stock webkit engine--e.g. Firefox and Opera Mobile on Android) etc would not be allowed on the iOS App Store. However, due to not having the arbitration, we suffer from a (slightly to somewhat) less cohesive overall user experience and (sometimes) lower polish inside of applications.
Personally, I prefer the power and 'openness' that Android's philosophy yields. Many others, however prefer the somewhat-higher level of safety and coherence that Apple's approach yields.
Just because they 'work' on Honeycomb doesn't mean they're any good for a tablet... There are only a few apps I run that aren't tablet specific yet actually take advantage of the space because it's hard to screw that up... Trillian and TweetDeck come to mind immediately.
Elysian893 said:
Just because they 'work' on Honeycomb doesn't mean they're any good for a tablet... There are only a few apps I run that aren't tablet specific yet actually take advantage of the space because it's hard to screw that up... Trillian and TweetDeck come to mind immediately.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Beat me to it. And I think you're absolutely spot on. I've found that 95% of my favorite Android phone apps run on my Xoom, but only 5% (or less) of those actually work the way that I would expect them to.
Remember, just because they do work, doesn't mean you care to use them.
I use 10 - 20 apps meant for Android that are not formatted for Honeycomb but provide the basic function. Good example would be Verizon Fios DVR app, only runs in portrait but does the job!
I think it's simply not true to say an app has to be formatted for HC to be useful.
Coming from an iPad to the Xoom, there's a small but significant group of apps that aren't present that I miss.
Truth is for me, most of the apps on my iPad were games (can live without) or things that I might on occasion run but weren't day to day needed.
Important ones are news reader (newer is ok, pulse is ok too) twitter client, remote desktop app.
Everything else I can live without if I have to, but there ARE definitely not more android tablet apps than iPad apps. Taking out the "it'll run on a tablet" aspect, just look in the market, 64 tablet apps. that's it.There's far more than that in the iTunes store that are iPad only or dual binary.
The discussion was including "It'll run apps" and by the way the 64 apps are only "Featured Apps".
I don't know if we can really tell how many apps are tablet specific/redesigned.
i think the next Honeycomb update should include an emulator for apps made to run on lower versions of android. Even if the graphic quality is ****e we should have the option.
jgrizz said:
i think the next Honeycomb update should include an emulator for apps made to run on lower versions of android. Even if the graphic quality is ****e we should have the option.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
We don't need this. This would be a terrible user experience.
The SDK already allows developers the option to make their app scale well to multiple different resolutions and devices. Nearly all developers have yet to implement this resolution scaling, therefore the apps don't scale well to the Xoom.
jwilker said:
Coming from an iPad to the Xoom, there's a small but significant group of apps that aren't present that I miss.
Truth is for me, most of the apps on my iPad were games (can live without) or things that I might on occasion run but weren't day to day needed.
Important ones are news reader (newer is ok, pulse is ok too) twitter client, remote desktop app.
Everything else I can live without if I have to, but there ARE definitely not more android tablet apps than iPad apps. Taking out the "it'll run on a tablet" aspect, just look in the market, 64 tablet apps. that's it.There's far more than that in the iTunes store that are iPad only or dual binary.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Those featured apps are deceptive. There are lots of Honeycomb apps out there that just don't get highlighted.
jwilker said:
Coming from an iPad to the Xoom, there's a small but significant group of apps that aren't present that I miss.
Truth is for me, most of the apps on my iPad were games (can live without) or things that I might on occasion run but weren't day to day needed.
Important ones are news reader (newer is ok, pulse is ok too) twitter client, remote desktop app.
Everything else I can live without if I have to, but there ARE definitely not more android tablet apps than iPad apps. Taking out the "it'll run on a tablet" aspect, just look in the market, 64 tablet apps. that's it.There's far more than that in the iTunes store that are iPad only or dual binary.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
By my counting, I have more than 64 apps installed that run...like 76 actually...not including pre installed stuff/OS integrated...
Just because they aren't "Featured Tablet" doesn't mean they won't run
iPad's apps, for the most part, are more polished than Xoom's tablet based apps. But they've had a year head start. More apps for the iPad? More apps specifcally for iOS tablet than for Android tablets? At this point, probably.
One good thing about the xoom, though, is even apps that weren't made specifically for a tablet still look good, for the most part, on the xoom. Where most iOS apps made for iPhone look stupid at 2x size on the iPad.
jwilker said:
Coming from an iPad to the Xoom, there's a small but significant group of apps that aren't present that I miss.
Truth is for me, most of the apps on my iPad were games (can live without) or things that I might on occasion run but weren't day to day needed.
Important ones are news reader (newer is ok, pulse is ok too) twitter client, remote desktop app.
Everything else I can live without if I have to, but there ARE definitely not more android tablet apps than iPad apps. Taking out the "it'll run on a tablet" aspect, just look in the market, 64 tablet apps. that's it.There's far more than that in the iTunes store that are iPad only or dual binary.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Those 64 apps are apps that Google has hand-picked. There's more than that.
I think the market should add a tablet app filtering option to find the ones that aren't blessed by Google.
jwilker said:
Important ones are news reader (newer is ok, pulse is ok too) twitter client, remote desktop app.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The xtralogic rdp client is terrific. A bit expensive, but terrific.
jwilker said:
Coming from an iPad to the Xoom, there's a small but significant group of apps that aren't present that I miss.
Truth is for me, most of the apps on my iPad were games (can live without) or things that I might on occasion run but weren't day to day needed.
Important ones are news reader (newer is ok, pulse is ok too) twitter client, remote desktop app.
Everything else I can live without if I have to, but there ARE definitely not more android tablet apps than iPad apps. Taking out the "it'll run on a tablet" aspect, just look in the market, 64 tablet apps. that's it.There's far more than that in the iTunes store that are iPad only or dual binary.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Check out team viewer, it's perfect on the xoom and it is completely free. Go to teamviewer.com and get the PC or Mac program and the android program, then game on.
Stop teh FlipFlop
rjoudrey said:
Does anyone know if this is true considering most iPhone apps will not run properly on the iPad, i.e.does not fill the screen?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A lot of you keep flip flopping on what you are measuring here. The op specifically lists the quote above as an example of only counting tablet specific apps. measuring by that standard, there are way more iPad only apps than Honeycomb tablet apps. For those of you who say just because it doesn't say it's not made for a tablet doesn't mean it doesn't work, I agree. By that measurement, all iOS apps work on the iPad, and they work exactly as expected because they are simply pixel doubled (Although as the op pointed out they don't completely fill the screen 100% when they are scaled).
Another point that has been raised is a qualitative measure of the apps in either store. Apple's App Store is a pretty clear winner here as well. This stems from two issues. First, the curated store versus free-for-all store. Second, device fragmentation. The later is more of a problem for the development side and thus requires dev's spend less time on "fit & finish" and more time tweaking their apps for the thousands of hardware variations. This is an issue that most dev's view as a problem for the android market (See link below). This problem also keeps some prominent dev's away from android all together (such as EPIC games). Looking at several apps that are available on both platforms, iOS apps not only look better, but in many cases some functionality has been gimped on the android app. There was a writeup about this recently to which I can't find but I was able to locate one of the screen capture comparisons of FaceBook from that article.
(due to forum rules I can't make these active links yet )
FaceBook Screen Shot:
wpuploads.appadvice.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/facebook.png
Dev Survey:
\/\/w\/\/.readwriteweb.com/mobile/2011/04/poll-android-fragmentation-issues.php
Don't get me wrong, I like several features about android, but when it comes to the Android Market versus App Store, iOS takes the cake.. or in this case the dough $$$. I have more android devices than I do iOS devices, However I have only purchased one app from the android market. I have an iPhone 4, iPhone 3Gs, iPad 2 (WiFi), Motorola Atrix (still sad about locked bootloader), HTC Inspire, Sony Xperia X10, HTC Aria (CM6), Samsung Captivate, and a Nexus.
Summary, In small portable devices like Smartphones and Tablets, Hardware and software working in concert is of greater importance than the PC of yester-year. That being said, for Android's license model to work like Microsoft's windows license model has for PC's, Google needs to have established hardware specification / form factor windows that can be reliably tested against. Secondly, they need to separate the core OS and the UI framework so they can allow vendors to customize their UI inline with the framework, which would allow Google to release an update to the core OS without the need to wait for the vendors to customize the core OS with their UI. Users could then update to the most current OS, and vendors can customize and tweak their UI to add new features of the new OS and release an updated UI when it's ready. Right now, the more consistent approach to iOS & Apple hardware is yielding better apps that are more profitable for dev's.
P.S. sorry about the run-on sentences
jondwillis said:
I think the market should add a tablet app filtering option to find the ones that aren't blessed by Google.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agree completely. True there's (probably) more than those 64, not sure how to find them. But finding iPad only in iTunes is easy enough, especially from the device itself.
I think no matter how it's sliced, there's less for the xoom or tablets in general than there is for iPad.
I really hope that trend changes, I suspect it won't until honeycomb is released to the public tho
This must be my 6th tablet if I include the 'first out of the post' compaq tablets eons ago, a toshiba laptop/tablet, 2 different ipads and an advent vega, so I'd like to think I've got a fairly balanced view on tablets.
I won't get into any of the usual iOS/Android flames, suffice to say in my opinion after a week of using Honeycomb on the Xoom, Android is much more suited to a tablet format than iOS on an iPad, which is really just a big phone, albeit a very slick one.
I'm sure most on this forum will be used to acting as guinea pigs for new technologies and that's a choice most of us have made by getting this device to see the possibilities of an Android tablet, so a few bugs was expected. A couple more updates and there's no reason why Android tablets will be just as slick as an iPad (as it is in the smartphone world now).
Now the hardware just needs to improve. While the Xoom is nice solid tech, it is heavy. I was trying to use it standing on up a train and after a while, it was particularly uncomfortable to use. The screen could be brighter too.
My one unexpected observation though is the screen size. Is it me or is a more rectangular 10.1" just not as easy to type on as the squarer 9.7" iPad?
I find that the wider screen means the keyboard either takes up all the screen or is squashed and the keys are not as easy to use. When I had the iPad, I found typing in landscape mode absolutely no problem. On the Xoom it's not quite as easy to type quickly on.
Anyway, just my opinion... while each day I like honeycomb more and more, I'm not entirely convinced that the Xoom will be my final Android tablet.
thx. xoom's really a sweet device, although it has few bugs. enjoy mine very much too
The think about android is that you can change the UI the way you like, you can have the sweet thumb keyboard app and that problem its solved. I find it hard to the ipad will let you change that UI keyboard setting.
I agree the xoom is too heavy, maybe they should realese a keyboard like asus transformer so it can be held in the lap (sorry for my english).
The screen on the xoom is the same as a widescreen monitor you use on a pc. The ipad is somekind of cropped. you can tell if you play videos on ipad...they dont fit the screen.
The only think that im a little sad about the xoom is devs arent interested right now to release honeycomb support. Not even all google apps have honeycomb support but i guess its matter of months or maybe they are waiting for xoom 2
I also had my Xoom for a week, and like you enjoy using it so far.
You can try to install this thumb keyboard for easier typing, even though it’s in beta, I have not had any problems use it.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1055327
I only took the Xoom on the train for one day and also found it difficult to use. My issue is more to do with the size than the weight. So I went back to use my Galaxy Tab and leave the Xoom for mainly home use.
The only real issue I've found with Honeycomb/my Xoom is the chronic shortage of apps designed for tablets specifically.
VaKo said:
The only real issue I've found with Honeycomb/my Xoom is the chronic shortage of apps designed for tablets specifically.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes , my thoughts exactly !
SwiftKey tablet beta resolves any typing issues, I've been using it since before it went public beta, was part of the early testers. They've already listened to many of my suggestions, which is just great IMO.
i totally agree about the apps. I'm willing to wait...but is it me is the number of apps going down the market? It was 67 a few days, 64 yesterday and 60 rightnow.
Sent from my Xoom using XDA Premium App
Does anyone notice that number of apps for tablet on android market decrease overtime ? The first day i got my xoom, there were 67 apps, 2 weeks ago: 64 apps. now there are 60 apps.
I wouldn't worry to much about the apps, with the huge list of android tablets dropping this year we can all expect to see a rather consistent flow of new apps......Hopefullly
tritran18518 said:
Does anyone notice that number of apps for tablet on android market decrease overtime ? The first day i got my xoom, there were 67 apps, 2 weeks ago: 64 apps. now there are 60 apps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's because when you click "Featured" Android Tablet apps, those are just "Featured". There are actually WAY more than that (150+) Honeycomb "optimized" apps in the Market.
It would be considerably more useful if there was a tablet part of the market, similar to iTunes having an iPad only part. There's no easy way to identify tablet optimized apps.
This is from a UK XOOM and I've a feeling that for some reason, Market is different in europe.
The fact that lists like this exist says volumes about the state of tablet support in the android market, but here is one of the user-compiled lists of apps that are either optimized for or work well with honeycomb:
http://forum.androidcentral.com/mot...al-optimized-honeycomb-apps-list-n-170-a.html
There's also the game compatibility thread in the xoom apps and themes section here on xda.
great resource... thanks!
scratch that... android c+?)&@l only allows 'registered users' to view links. Way to support open source guys!
Agreed. I'm sure the list is useful, but that kind of garbage makes me keep right on walkin.
yea its ridiculous
Is it that hard to register a free account?
in all honestly you should all already have android central accounts...it's the most popular android development site...
Xoom Gripes
First off, for what I use it for, my Xoom is better than my iMac and my MacBook Pro. That said, I have a couple of issues with it.
I hate the placement of the ports. I got a case from KeviKev (which is the bees knees), and I cannot prop it up while charging without putting strain on the cable/port.
When plugged-in to my TV (HDMI), the screen orientation changes in a very strange way. I turned the tablet upside-down so I could prop it up with the HDMI cable plugged in, and the picture on the TV went upside-down, too. I know I can lock the orientation, but I would like it if it were more intelligent about the way it handles screen orientation.
These flaws (if I can even call them that) are not an issue when I use the tablet out on the street, or when I lay it down on its back when I'm not really using the screen anyway. There isn't much that I can say about my Xoom that isn't praise. I have the U.S. 3G version and I live in Germany, and the lack of mobile broadband isn't a complete turn-off like I had anticipated. Kudos to Motorola and Google.
Barnes & Noble has decimated their Nook development group.
Their latest endeavor, the white Nook Glow is a mish-mash of old and new software.
It appears that they've dropped the other two Eink models.
I do not ever expect to see any further updates or developments from B&N.
Eink has always played their cards close to their chest.
They have always presented their products as OEM, that is for manufacturers only.
To get the most out of devices with Eink displays application developers must also have a good understanding of Eink.
Just go to the Eink website, there is no useful information available.
A visit to Eink Developer Center shows just one kit for development of tiny readouts, not full displays.
I am not sure that I agree eInk is dead. I think it will have a niche market out there for a while. I am one of those people who really don't like reading on a back lit screen for any length of time. Perhaps it is due to my job where I stare at back lit LCD monitors all day long. In any case, I want to read on an eInk screen, not a back lit LCD. Until someone develops another tech to take to place of eInk, there will be people like me looking for eInk devices.
As for the eInk Nooks. They are dead. The future of eInk devices is high resolution 1024 x 768 capacitive touchscreen like the Kindle Paperwhite or the newly introduced Tolino Vision from Germany.
Hmm, that new Tolino looks interesting.
Still, I wouldn't say that 600 x 800 vs 768 x 1024 is the biggest deal for me.
The screen resolution is adequate for my eyes.
That it's the Carta display, whiter and faster would be some incentive.
A faster processor, more RAM and a more recent Android would be a win.
Of course I like eInk, I just think with prices being more than an LCD tablet it will remain a niche market.
It is my impression, from what I have read, the the extra resolution is somewhat necessary to make up for the extra layer needed for the capatitive touch screen. I agree that the 800 x 600 on a Nook with an IR touch screen is plenty good enough for these 50+ year old eyes.
No, E-Ink isn't dead. I have had a NST and I've been very satisfied with it as an e-reader. It's still easier on the eyes than even the best backlit display. My hope has been that someone might develop an E-Ink tablet not only for reading books but also for other text-intensive apps. Check out meetearl.com, for one interesting possibility. In the meantime, some folks have figured out that the Kobo line and the Tolino line are very similar in hardware. Long story short, I now have a Kobo Aura HD running Gingerbread from a microSD card. And it's not too bad at all. I don't use it for games or video, but it works well for the apps I've wanted to run on an E-Ink display. Gingerbread is old now, but significantly better than Eclair. The folks at Earl plan to use KitKat. It's still in development. No, E-Ink isn't dead yet!
Sent from my Nexus 7 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
I will have to admit that I bought a Nexus 7 tablet (1st gen, 32G) because my NST was less than completely adequate for some things. However, now, months later, I still find myself using the NST for almost all my reading. It is lighter, and easier on the eyes than the Nexus.
Dead? Maybe, but you can have mine when you pry my cold dead fingers off of it!
MildBill
All the black eInk Nooks have disappeared from the Barnes & Noble website.
You can only find them on places like eBay now.
I'm not sure about the brick-and-mortar stores, I'll have to check.
I am interested in how the Tolino will work out.
There is this video (in German): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SulHahVHxIE
It doesn't really look impressively better.
I spend 99% of my time doing straight reading and my NST works as least as well as that.
eInk devices are going to be primarily for those who (like myself) like dedicated devices. I want my camera to take pictures, I want my phone to make phone calls, I want my eReader to read, and I use a tablet for other media (video / web / music). I believe that there will always be a market for such devices, whether that market is sufficiently lucrative for products to be developed and sold is another question.
We have an NST and a new Kobo Aura HD. I did all my serious reading on my NST. It's still one of the best eReaders out there. If the NST ran a newer version of Android, I would have looked no further. But, I wanted to be able to read books and articles from a few other apps on an E-Ink eReader, apps which won't work on Android 2.1. When I learned that the Kobo eReaders are very similar to the Tolino line, and that someone found a way to run the Tolino Shine's ROM from a microSD card on a Kobo Aura HD, I became very interested. I went and did it. The Tolino ROM works fairly well on the Kobo. The Kobo reader has some good features, like Pocket integration. If you put the NST and the Kobo side by side, you can see the improved resolution on the Kobo. But I still prefer the way the NST formats and presents ePub eBooks. I hope I'm wrong, but it seems like B&N is bailing out of the eReader business. That would be sad indeed if it is true.
Sent from my Kobo Aura HD running Gingerbread
Renate NST said:
Barnes & Noble has decimated their Nook development group.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Source?
http://www.geekwire.com/2014/layoffs-hit-barnes-nobles-nook-division/
http://www.businessinsider.com/barnes-and-noble-hardware-engineering-staff-2014-2
http://www.techspot.com/news/55625-...arnes-nobles-nook-engineering-department.html
http://www.techweekeurope.co.uk/news/end-in-sight-for-nook-following-job-cuts-138724
Renate NST said:
http://www.geekwire.com/2014/layoffs-hit-barnes-nobles-nook-division/
http://www.businessinsider.com/barnes-and-noble-hardware-engineering-staff-2014-2
http://www.techspot.com/news/55625-...arnes-nobles-nook-engineering-department.html
http://www.techweekeurope.co.uk/news/end-in-sight-for-nook-following-job-cuts-138724
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you!
New Sony Dpt-S1, 13" reader looks like intersting use of Eink technology. But screen refresh still looks better on Nst with fastmode/norefresh
and PocketBook Cad reader, strong specifications like for eink
13",1 Ghz dual core, android 4.0, 2gb ram...
The take-up probably would have been far quicker had ereaders been cheaper. I'm guessing the biggest cost of an ereader is the eink display itself? Is it really that much more complex in it's design than an lcd that prices seem to be high for most ereaders (i know the technology is different, i mean the manufacturing process costs)? Most people would opt for a tablet as you can get really good ones with beautiful screens (Nook HD for example) for less than the price of a new Kindle, Kobo etc and you can do SO much more than just reading. Yeh, ereaders are easier on the eyes, but i doubt most tablet owners care about that when you add all the other functions of a tablet.
I think ereaders will always continue to exist, and i think as more and more people start using their tablets for reading entire books as opposed to just websites, articles, magazines etc, they're going to look to something that's easier on the eyes and ereaders will always be an excellent option, especially if more less restrictive ones come out that allow you to sync other files as well very easily without having to root them and install apps like dropbox, airdroid etc yourself. Kobo's Pocket for example is a great addition, but far more options to the user would be better, such as choosing which article sync app you wanted, Pocket, Readability, InstaPaper etc. Sync apps should also be the norm such as options to choose between Dropbox, gdrive, etc as well as maybe a basic browser like Opera Mini (mini so you get basic text versions of sites rather than the full sites that ereaders struggle with and output ugly results.
What i'd really like to see is great tablets with all their power, but with the addition of an eink display attached to the back Yeh, it's going to be thicker and slightly heavier but i think it could work. Similar to to Yotaphone, but not as rubbish as the Yotaphone (i read really bad reviews), instead, the eink side would work the same as any other touch screen ereader. You can even have a cover that flips over to cover the backside so only the screen you're looking at is exposed so if you put it down you don't have to worry about scratches. The implementation could be so much easier as well, instead of trying to figure about how you get the image on the eink side (a problem Yota did not fix well), you could just mirror the tablet side exactly, so there's no additional complex software conversions to do, that way if you want to end your web browsing session on your tablet and read a book, just open your ereader app, flip your tablet and read on you eink side and flip pages the way you already do on an ereader via touch.
If i had the money and the know how i would be designing a Tablet/Ereader hybrid like that myself. Had this idea for a long time, but never understood why someone didn't do it (other than the cost). I'm sure there are reasons that others will point out maybe, but i'd much rather buy a Tablet/Ereader hydrid long before i buy the failed SmartPhone/ereader hybrid as the latter is pointless, reading on a small phone even if it is eink is still difficult and makes you strain your eyes.
I think the Nook Simple Touch is really the optimal format in many ways.
6" is a good size for reading reflowable text.
It's not that great for page formatted (i.e. PDF).
It's too bad that B&N cut so many corners.
Not all the delay can be blamed on the eInk itself.
The processor is slow and there isn't a lot of RAM.
It would have been nice if they had gotten the Jorjin chip with Bluetooth.
I can compare navigation speed on large documents using the same reader app (i.e. my new app) on my Nook and my old disused Kyocera Rise cell phone.
The Nook shows as pretty slow.
I agree, it is sad that B&N ruined the Nook e-inks.
Was never (and am still not) a fan of Amazon devices.
E-ink devices are still evolving.
My next e-ink device is getting closer to release. http://www.meetearl.com/
Being full Android KitKat device, it has the options I want and a few extra.
I am not really sure if e-ink is going in or out.
I see contradicting moves out there:
- Best Buy has eliminated all e-ink readers from their (brick and mortar) stores. I went to three of them this past week and only Kindle Paperwhite is present. Their explanation: tablets are replacing them.
- hower: one can see bigger e-ink readers being released, which also have more of their Android base exposed: Onyx Boox M96M Zeus, ICARUS eXceL 9.7". It seems that those producers of ereaders that still want to be in the market add features so that they bring the feature convergence on their side.
I personally love the e-ink displays and would very much like to have a modern phone/tablet using it. Keeping my fingers crossed !
We all love the Nook but it's getting kind of old in the tooth.
Ok, the Glow4 (7.8") finally upped its game to 1 GB RAM, but that was kind of necessary.
It also added Bluetooth, something that could have been done cheaply and easily to earlier models.
Although I'm no fan of using the latest and greatest Android version, 4.4.2 is getting a bit old.
I understand that this is a tough business where every little part on the BOM (bill of materials) will hurt you.
Still, using single core processor is so yesterday. A Raspberry Pi Zero has quad core for $10-15.
To my mind a 6" 300 DPI reader is about optimal for flowing text reading.
For frequent or work PDF reading I'd want a 10" 300 DPI reader instead of high power reading glasses.
The 8" reader seems to fall uncomfortably in the middle.
The Kobos are Linux based, not Android.
Onyx has some decent choices in their (confusedly similar) product palette.
The older stuff has Android 4.4, the newer stuff Android 9.0
They have quad core and even octa core.
The "Poke 2" looks pretty nice for a 6", but why did they have to add the silver styling?
https://onyxboox.com/boox_poke2
(Oh, well, some sandpaper and a can of black spray paint would fix that.)
As I am in love with the Aard dictionary, my NST has been simply wonderful. But I understand Kobo no longer support an SD card. Where to now?
Same boat. I just got rid of my GLP BNRV510. Hated the light grey, small dictionary font. Also reading PDF seemed to convert those documents to oversized images. My NSTw/GL was awesome. I was going to upgrade to the new NGLP7.8 but the specs and issues with overheating are a turn off. Also I have read reviews stating that you can't side load books anymore? This may also apply to the GLP BNRV510 with the latest firmware update too. Which eReader now?
The Glow2 (BNRV510) is my main read.
If I have to read a PDF, I read it in landscape at two "chunks" a page.
I wouldn't think that B&N would try to lock down sideloads and I don't anticipate it would be hard to defeat.
I hope not but I understand the arguments for your question. To be honest NST as it was not my first choice (first choice was some Sony model) but I love it now. Last time I checked Kobo Aura looked nice but that was long ago and I do not know how things look now on the market.
Recently I was scrubbing my head around this issue. How I see the problem with NST? Well B&N locked out anything and everything humanly possible to prevent users doing something they did not wanted them to do. Devs unlock most of the obstacles out of protest or because of challenge ahead. As it runs ancient version of Android apps are scarce and disappearing fast. Writing an app dedicated for NST might be an act of love toward hardware base made by dedicated fanatic but we can assume there are not to many such individuals around today as Rennate said Nook is old.
So without further ado there are few roads as I see that could be taken if NST is to continue ahead.
1. Upgrades to Android version as far and much its hardware allows and using slightly more up to date apps for it (like CM11 approach running from SD card allows).
2. As Android is just an overlay on Linux leave it as is for B&N sake and good sleep but make some dual boot solution that will actually allow us to boot Linux (something in the line of Ubuntu for devices but not exactly so because as far as I remember that work only for versions of Android above 4) as that could give user maximum possible ability to customize it for his/her use.
3. Just say bye to B&N and build new NST OS from scratch be it Linux or another version of Android as that might be easier due to a clean slate/paper ahead and being less bound to a obstacles made by B&N.
4. It might be possible to create also dual profile on the current NST OS but given its restrictions that might not be of some great use - (B&N profile and user profile). What other forum members think about it?
P.S. I did not want to create separate thread about this and this thread seemed to fit in the general idea of talk about it. I hope Rennate wont mind.
Nah, I don't mind.
I use the same reader app on my Glow2 and everything else, including my $70 Walmart Onn 8" tablet.
Even a cheap-o (single CPU) tablet has 2G vs the Glow2's 0.5G
For better or worse, people like the Android ecosystem as a way to make apps.
Of course, Google & Co are working on making everything ginormous and expensive.
(And adding even more pointless animations.)
It's always a question of how much work you want to put in to fight annoying things.
Renate NST said:
Nah, I don't mind.
I use the same reader app on my Glow2 and everything else, including my $70 Walmart Onn 8" tablet.
Even a cheap-o (single CPU) tablet has 2G vs the Glow2's 0.5G
For better or worse, people like the Android ecosystem as a way to make apps.
Of course, Google & Co are working on making everything ginormous and expensive.
(And adding even more pointless animations.)
It's always a question of how much work you want to put in to fight annoying things.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am glad that you do not mind and find this discussion still within topic you started.
As always you hit problem in the head with much less words then me. I have always wondered what are the limits of hardware requirements needed (minimum) for some tasks/programs to run reliably. And we see that people test those boundaries each day.
You are correct that Android had given people app making opportunities. Sadly recent trend is to take away that from us on old devices as this one. I agree that "awww look its so shiny and buzzing" might look nice but regarding information value its pretty much crap (no way to put it politely sorry). Information is what the people using books/ebooks find to have some merit and it is in the form of text, graph, still picture mostly. I accept that sometimes video can be better tool for presenting certain information but general trend is not in that direction. Information in any shape and form I will accept gladly. Sad truth is that today we have to duck and fight against flash advertising and eye candy web UI of very little value and dubious quality.
I have some doubts what would be the most likely way to continue that is why I made that post. If it was my thread I would make a poll but even here I am willing to hear what is your opinion? Amongst four options I wrote up what would you most likely choose as a way forward? Also if possible please explain why.
1) I think doing an upgrade of Android version on an older device is a bunch of work and hardly justified.
2) I'm not a fan of dual boot. I like to keep things simple. Especially on my main reading device where I just want to pick it up and read.
Android "Linux" has quite a few different things than normal Linux. If you want Linux, get a Kobo.
3) Porting something new to the NST is a lot of work. See #1
4) I don't see the necessity of dividing profiles. I also don't understand what you're looking for.
Ok, I'm a fan of the NST, but it's had its day. The Glows have better resolution and backlight.
You get your choice of capacitive (Glow2) or IR (Glow3) touch screen.
The Android 4.4.2 on the Glows is not so bad yet. (The NST Android 2.1 makes life difficult.)
I think more memory, Bluetooth and a better processor would be on my wish list (in order).
Yes, the Glow4 has Bluetooth.
With enough effort you can fix any little technical thing in life that annoys you.
(I just spend this morning grinding and filing down a piece on my brand new guitar because I couldn't stand the design.)
It's a question of time and also how many people your effort would help.
I think an Onyx Boox is in my future, but I wish they didn't have so many silly models.
It's funny, I still use my original Nook Simple Touch, but a few times a year I find myself curious and looking to see if there's a perfect e-reader out yet for me to upgrade to. In the end it always just seems like nothing is really so much better that I really want to buy it, though.
In particular, page refreshes and overall responsiveness, which are the main things I'd like to be better, still just haven't improved enough on affordable e-readers, in my opinion. A backlight would be kinda cool, but hardly seems like a big deal since personally I'm still pretty used to reading real books, which obviously don't have built in lighting either. I guess a higher density screen might be nice, but I can't say I really notice it on my NST. Newer Android? Maybe, though I've really always been able to find an app that does what I need and works on the NST even with Android 2.1, so I'm not sure what the advantage would be.
I'm a pretty light user of my Nook, though, I guess. Most of the time I'm just reading epubs or sometimes pdfs (scientific papers, which are usually published as double columns, so they work just fine on the NST screen), plus the occasional word games or round of picross here and there. Someday I'm sure I'll upgrade to a new reader, but I think it's gonna be a while at the rate the technology has been improving.
You have stated all valid points here. I understand them and agree to most. Maybe I should explain in more details my points.
I use NST as is. Still restrictions imposed on user by B&N are frustrating sometimes. I mentioned upgrading Android on the device only because its own base is abandoning 2.1 and cutting of access to application made for this version. I have nothing against sideloading apps but if the source to such apps is going to dry out it might be a time for a change. Theoretically with slight upgrade of Linux kernel on it upgrade to gingerbread/honeycomb looks doable. Is it worth the effort is a valid question and that is exactly what I am asking for opinion here.
I am mostly using an OS from that Redmond firm. Although I want to learn and use Linux more I am certainly not looking into using it on e-reader despite it is possible to do on Kobo. Point of dual boot would be to leave B&N stuff as is and do on Linux what you like. At least on Linux you would not be that easily cutoff from apps you want/need. Again looks doable but I am not sure if it is recommendable. Reason for me to considering this is that more and more I read about trying to write/rewrite an apps for this device. Even I have started something similar to porting Linux program to Android and being frustrated by next to nill progress so far started to wonder am I doing it backward and should I run Linux on NST and program in the environment it was written for.
I am surprised Renate is not for whole new OS because the way I see the things she is already halfway there with all the apps she wrote for NST. . I know OS is another matter but let's face it it was half baked product to begin with. I mean Phone.apk really? On a device without sound support! And that app control volume? Man B&N really had shoestring budget for software developer and had us use port of some phone OS instead writing dedicated stuff.
I find multiple profile least advised on such low power device but I could see its merit here and there. I have a cousin which would be happy if she had kids profile on its phone as that would prevent paying triple digit roaming charges. NST most likely do not have the power to pull of multiple profiles although in theory something like that could be made even for Eclare in some crumbly way.
NST have resolution just above low printing and we love it. If some device could achieve 300dpi and have larger screen A4 size preferably with A5 being minimum that would be awesome. There are few device on market Remarkable and Sony with 10 and 13.3 inch screen but they cost still an arm and a leg. Although they shifted concept more toward notebook/sketchbook I have no problem with that but e-book support is next to nothing PDF only if I remember well. I am old and I like to use "pen" on "paper". I will look about other device mentioned. Aura H2O did caught my eye once to be honest.
Now I hope you can see my points more clearly. I find this discussion fruitful. Even if we do nothing we at least have fresh input from others to tickle little gray cells.
As far as upgrades go, upgrading to anything less than Lollipop (5.0) is pretty pointless.
That's already five years old as it is.
As bloat is a given, you're always going to need more memory and a faster processor.
If you want to learn about Linux a Raspberry Pi is certainly an economical solution.
For ~$15 you can get a Raspberry Pi ZeroW.
Android *nix deviates a lot from Linux but mostly in system and startup issues.
You can cross-compile C programs on your Windows box using the the Android NDK and run them in the command line on your Nook.
You won't have direct access to the screen unless you want to write to /dev/graphics/fb0 yourself.
If you don't want the Android layer running at that time you can just turn it on and off with "stop" and "start".
You might try to get into writing regular Java (or Kotlin, but don't get me going on that) applications.
There is something to be said for having your own app that runs on both your phone and your Nook.
There's a lot of convenience in having whatever you're looking for on whatever device you have at the moment.
I always though that backlights were pointless, but I've learned to love them.
If you have copier paper a lot of it is 92% reflective.
The white in eInk is a lot grayer than that.
I always keep my backlight on, but only to the point that it makes up for the gray tint to make it white.
Looking at it you really don't get the impression that it is glowing.
I have stumbled on web page of a project to port some 4+ Android version on NST which pretty much surprised me. Can not remember was it ICS or JB and hell Kitkat would be awesome for device that old. I believe that for that they must abandon B&N stuff almost completely unless they somehow ported it back from Glow versions? And counting in size expected I bet that they reformatted partitions on the device to make it happen. Now will that stick together or fall apart spontaneously is another question. I remember that on xda that somewhere was a thread about disabling OTA from B&N that could brake such upgrade but since they no longer support NST we should not worry about this. I wonder why did you said Lollipop as minimum choice? Do you consider it as minimum acceptable Android version or maximum that NST could possibly run?
As far as Linux go nah I will just play with old laptop instead. Although I caught myself looking to buy present for nephews in electronic realm. Arduino or Pie? aye there is the rub...
I didn't program anything reasonable for a long time. Therefore I am more than rusty in that field. Although I believesome Python or lua script I could manage if enough effort is put on my side.Julia look to me as a programming language that shows some promise to the future from old man perspective. Certainly none of those are useful to porting anything to Android and NST. For the moment I cut my appetite back and will look into how I can backup NST and make virtual image out of it to run it in Virtual box. There I hope to try to learn how things work on Android an play/apply changes in the sand boxed environment. If I break something no harm done just delete virtual drive and start again. I don't want to brick my only NST. Maybe I should buy used one for latter to as I see lot of UK used one have hit the market after B&N closed in UK.
I hate Java from reasons unwilling to disclose or as you said let's not start about that. Idea behind it is fine. Sadly it is lot to be desired on the implementation side. I totally understand that Java might give some benefits especially if we count in the already existing base of programs written on Java. Have a friend who learn and use Java but I personally never manage to overcome my personal detest of it.
Regarding backlight... I never saw Glow. Is there true backlight in like shining through panel? Or did they made something in line of those book lights for real books? I think that could work for capacitive screen but not so much so for IR like NST have. That should not glow much I think and could be regulated in illumination and colour.
The NST has 256M RAM, the Glow2/3 has 512M, the Glow4 has 1G, my $40 phone has 2G.
The $60 Kobo I have has only 256M, but it just runs Linux.
I couldn't be bothered to update my NST even if you handed me an image on a platter.
ebay has the Glow4 (open box) for $130.
I wouldn't even try to update that to a newer version, too much work.
Since this thread started the Boox Poke3 6" reader has come out.
It has Android 10, 8 CPUs, 2G RAM, Bluetooth and lists for $190.
That's a heck of a lot more of a device than the Glow3 for $120.
It also doesn't have the ugly styling of the Poke2.
https://www.boox.com/poke3/
Hmm, currently not in the US warehouse.
I'm a big fan of Arduino and RPi, but it gets complicated.
An adult friend bought an Arduino, hooked up an LCD and a thermometer, loaded the sketch.
It worked. They got bored. End of the story.
I don't know what the solution is. You make it too easy, they get bored. You make it too hard, they get frustrated.
I'm not a fan of the whole Arduino infrastructure and the Processing language. I prefer just AVR8. But I am "old skool".
I use RPi a lot, but I've only seen the desktop version about once.
I use headless and also digital signage without X Windows or desktop.
The Glow2 has single color edge lit backlight, The Glow3/4 uses dual color (blending) edge lit backlight.
If you hold them sighting down the face of the screen at a very low angle you can tell there are discreet LEDs.
(It's nothing you could ever see in normal usage.)
I checked Boox first time you mentioned it. Impressive progress I must say. Paradox is that as I understand newer Android versions are more optimized to be run even on underpowered devices but I agree that NST is both old and underpowered. Still even you mentioned that Kobo has same low memory but still running successfully Linux only environment. That speaks a lot in Linux favor regarding resource management and use. Yes there are slim chances someone cook something up for NST and even then people will just buy new device that is several times better. You wouldn't believe but B&N readers are hard to find here. I had to ask a friend to bring me the one from Middle East because it was available there so go figure.
Thanks for the opinion about Arduino vs RPi. I think you might be right. Kids nowadays will be interested to program more than to assemble something and experiment. Its a shame because I think they could learn more about physics by fiddling with Arduino.
Thanks for explaining me or rather confirming how light on Glow device is made. I am curious how they sorted out possible interference of lighting with IR touchscreen but I guess they somehow used non overlapping LEDs for those two separate things or passthrough IR only filters on IR detector side. In theory even some simple software calibration could work for that but I am also an "old skool" and wouldn't choose that as my way had I have gotten the task to build something of this kind. I might rig me some "lights" for old fashioned hardcopy books. Not that I can't buy it online but I want to engage my fingers a little.
If you haven't played with it yet, the Touch-1.0.apk (in the sig) works on the NST and will show you how/where the beams of IR go.
It can be helpful to see where dirt or distortion of the bezel is making it difficult for touches to be registered correctly.
Since the party seems to be going into a topic of what next best e-reader should be maybe we could exchange opinions about certain things available as in are they necessary or good enough at this moment. For example Boox is offering a model that can show ebooks as black and white or I presume as 4 color "print". As B&W it present it as 300dpi which is on par with printed books and man can not ask for more in my opinion. Alas when it present 4 color "print" it is meager 100dpi that could mean even NST just blows it out of scene. So my vote on color e-reader is still no. If it ever reach 150dpi it will become a thing to consider but right now it is still under acceptable performance from mine point of view.
Do you consider making notes on a device important? I am asking because I have mentioned ReMarkable and Sony DPT (which is gone now). Sony again made good device only to withdraw from the market at the end. While I understand that in the e-reader case as Amazon blow them out securing the better library this time I am afraid it is Sony's own fault. There exist few rebranded models of hardware Sony used with seemingly better software Fujitsu Quadreno and Mooink Pro. Mooink support PDF, epub, docs and text and offers a software for file conversion and DRM management. There are few annoying things. Almost none have microSD card option now. It is replaced with cloud storage or printing. And I personally like having pen but I find being robbed when they sell it separately and with replaceable tips because they made those to wear out. Cost is way to high despite larger screen.
I'm not clear on what you mean with "4 color".
The only thing that I can see on the website is a way to save your scribbles to an external file where you can set the color saved (but not viewed) on the device.
If you've ever seen a store white/red/black eInk shelf label update you'll know that that's only useful for things that change once a day.
I don't look too closely at the reader software itself since I'll probably just use my own.
I hate the sort of pictograph selection of small, medium, large font.
What if I want 5% larger than medium?
There's always a bit of conflict between SD card and waterproof.
I figure 32 GB fixed storage is large enough for me.
There's always a big tossup what is the correct mix of devices, phone, ereader, tablet, tablet with pen, tablet with keyboard, laptop, desktop?
I've never owned a personal laptop, never seen the sense (for me).
Rarely do I use a tablet or a phone with a BT keyboard when I want to do some sort of bulk inputting or fleshing out an idea or transcribing lyrics.
I kind of like digitizers, but never found a way that the utility exceeds the space they take.
Onyx Boox Poke 2 Color is for example device able to reproduce color. Yet is it worth buying?
Yes I understand your choice to use custom reader software. File support seems to have always been a problem and it just went worse from there.
Yes waterproof device shouldn't have SD card. I have mean more in a sense of having the ability to root, backup and thinker with the device.
SJT75 said:
Onyx Boox Poke 2 Color is for example device able to reproduce color.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The product selection of Onyx or Boox or Onyx Boox has always confused the heck out of me.
Currently on https://www.boox.com/allproducts/ there is no indication of anything color.
Moreover, the "About Us" speaks of "We focus on E Ink ( ePaper) devices only. "
But I do remember seeing something previously on the website that spoke of color.
I just got back from B&N and the employees have a spec sheet for the NEW Nook Glow Light 4 (yes they are calling it NGL4). I got a peak at the spec sheet and it's a 6" model but no release date yet. Anyone have any information on the new Nook? Also noticed the current 6" Nook Glow Light Plus was out of stock. I was thinking about getting a 7" Kobo Libra 2, might have to wait...
Did you see if they are using the same old tired processor that they've been using, the iMX6SL?
Any mention of what Android version?
You might want to take a look at the Onyx Poke 3 if you are in the market for a 6".
They also have 7", 7.8", 10.3", 13.3"
https://www.boox.com/
The spec sheet had basic info. Nothing on the hardware. More of an educational info for employees.
Stopped by B&N today to see if the new Nook Glowlight 4 has been released or a release date. No, according to the B&N employees the release date has been pushed back to mid December. I asked if I can take a pic of the spec sheet but no. Additional info from their employee only info (basic spec):
Screen size: 6", 300ppi
Weight: 6oz
Storage: 32g
Battery: will read multiple weeks on single charge.
Buttons: on bezel
CPU: No info on employee spec sheet
Cores: No info on employee spec sheet
B&N just made it official: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/nook-glowlight-4-barnes-noble/1140326110?ean=9780594149293
It's available December 8th for $150.
Wow, I remember when a new Nook model would have people falling over each other to comment. I guess B&N has faded into insignificance. Maybe they concentrated too much on selling ebooks and didn't make a viable device? It remains Kindle for the walled community, Kobo for Linux-based and Onyx for Android. Although there are tons of other brands too.
If that Gentoo keyword you scrapped hunting around for information is any kind of indication it seems that Nook might be on course of shifting toward Linux like Kobo, Pocketbook etc already are. It might be that B&N is trying to copy more closely Kindle approach toward these kind of devices because it also is Linux albeit much more heavily modified and walled off. Good thing is that Gentoo is stable binary compiled distro as far as I remember that should be stable albeit maximum user unfriendly but I presume that it will work reliably on default settings or as designed and with minimal amount of storage/memory space required. Question is did they put an Android layer on top of it?
No, it's all Android. I think "Gentoo" is just their idea of "Generation Two" as in the first series out of Netronix to not use the NXP iMX6SL.
I've already run the reader out of the new Nook on my cell phone. It's all Android.
"Barnes & Noble chief James Daunt said the company planned to "reinvigorate" the Nook line in the months and years ahead — this may just be one of the opening salvos."- Engadget
Will be curious to see what they mean by that...
Renate said:
Wow, I remember when a new Nook model would have people falling over each other to comment.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
LOL. It seems like a very nice reader. I note simplicity (no Bluetooth, etc.). And, with Oreo, difficult to root, which means difficult to add anything. But probably a very nice reader.
If I remember well enough Oreo is first version of Android that tried to implement some reasonable resources management like memory usage etc. So that is a good thing. Bad is all versions above 4 start to introduce more and more quirky stuff going further away from initial AOSP. So there is no wonder that projects like LineageOS spawn of as result of that practice. It might be harder to root/hack yet since it is older version of Android who knows. Unlike before they abstain from going with some radical new hardware/software stuff implemented. Device characteristics are textbook example of middle road and targeting most ubiquitous hardware characteristics on the market or in other words best selling models. If it is so then only trump card that they could have under the sleeve is better software. We'll see...
nmyshkin said:
I note simplicity (no Bluetooth, etc.).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, I'm scratching my head over this. It's hard to be sure about the hardware specifications when you're only looking at the system software. It looks like this has the same RTL8723DS as found in the Glow 7.8. That does 2.4 GHz (only) WiFi and Bluetooth.
In any case, B&N really fell down on promoting this. Why didn't they put "Coming soon" before Black Friday?
So like a NST which theoretically could but in reality does not have bluetooth? I totally missed that one. Oh and there were hints before that they will put another e-ink reader on the market but it was mixed with half-truths and disinformation. It was stated they will partner with Lenovo for e-ink reader and in the end it turned out that they did partnered with Lenovo but for tablet format.
My very first E-Ink device was a Nook Simple Touch. I'm one of those who jumped right in to comment whenever B&N had a new device on offer! I love my Onyx Boox Note Air 2, but I am curious about this new GL 4. Nostalgia, maybe? I wonder if it will be as easy to root as earlier GL devices?
Windsor1959 said:
I love my Onyx Boox Note Air 2, but I am curious about this new GL 4. Nostalgia, maybe? I wonder if it will be as easy to root as earlier GL devices?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, the Onyx are pretty nice, aren't they? I'm loving my Poke3.
I already have a root exploit for the new Glow. I may even buy one to see how it works. I'm crazy about the yellow "Daffodil" cover. I don't know whether it will fit my Poke3.
I have nothing smart to say. Just thanks to Renate for making my day. Having root exploit for device that is yet to hit the market is awesome. It made me chuckle so hard that my glasses almost fell off my head.
I ordered one Monday night. It's already shipped. It should be here by Friday.
I ordered one yesterday as well. B&N estimates that mine will arrive on Thursday.
My GL4 arrived not long ago. It looks similar to the GL 3 of a few years ago. There does not appear to be a way to turn on Developer Settings as there was with the GL 3, which could make rooting the device more challenging. It has page turn buttons - nirvana for some people. It downloaded an update as soon as I turned it on! It's light and easy to hold. Warm/cold light is easily adjustable. Good impressions so far.
Edit: When I connect the GL4 to my Mac, it shows up as a Nook drive (no surprise there) but only 5.36GB. This device has 32GB of internal storage. Looks like B&N may have partitioned the free space once again. Yes, that's still a decent amount of space, but why not have access to all the free space on the device? (Probably in an attempt to guard against rooting...)
Oops, I did it again.