Related
I want to start this discussion because I haven't seen it anywhere and I read several Android forums. I love the platform and it's "openess" but it seems that requirements from Google fall just short of making this the best platform ever for handsets.
We are all screaming at Motorola about the signed bl but we aren't focusing enough on the greater issue. The Android license from Google seems to allow this or maybe it is less specific to Google than to some other entity but I don't speak lawyerese so i'm not sure. Anyway, here is what I keep reading from Motorola...
"The use of open source software, such as the Linux kernel or the Android platform, in a consumer device does not require the handset running such software to be open for re-flashing. We comply with the licenses, including GPLv2, for each of the open source packages in our handsets"
My point of discussion is this, why aren't we asking Google what they can do? Why can't Google simply state that "we will not allow our software to be damaged in this way"? Why do they allow Verizon, at&t, Motorola, HTC or anyone else manipulate their software in a way that brings so much resentment? Is it not in Google's best interest to force this platform to remain open? I realize this is a double edged sword because open means people can do what they want, which holds true for companies also but I think that everyone realizes that Google's intent was that this would benefit everyone, not just the companies.
Also, everyone seems to forget that HTC is messing around with trying to lock down the NAND. Just because geniuses get past the protection doesn't mean that HTC isn't trying. If the Droid X is a huge success, even with this restriction in place, then what makes any of you think that the rest will not follow suit?
Because open means that you can do whatever you want with it. There is nothing stopping anyone from using it, modifying it for their own uses, and putting it in any device that would support it. That's why a company can strip down all of Google stuff from it and put Bing if they want to, and Google wouldn't be able to complain. The whole point of open and free software is that you compete by actually being the best at something. You keep Google stuff in Android because well, they work best.
Now, when you put Android in a device you manufacture, you do have the rights to do whatever you want with the device. This seems to be a hardware protection on top of the software ones. You know how DRM'd mp3 stop working? well, it's not much different, except that now there is physical damage.
True, these measures defeat the whole purpose of being open, but what the heck. Being truly open means making a great product, and then not complaining when someone grabs it and beats you with it. You have are always competing to deliver the best product, and that's why open is awesome.
Who was it that said: "I can't agree with what you are saying, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"?
Open goes both ways. The company (Motorola) has every right to lock down the bootloader and prevent others from flashing.
You guys are looking at it as if Motorola did this to prevent people from flashing custom roms. The real reason they did it was to prevent others from stealing their rom and porting it to another phone. If you like the "ninjablur" UI, you need to buy the DroidX.
Ryan Frawley said:
Open goes both ways. The company (Motorola) has every right to lock down the bootloader and prevent others from flashing.
You guys are looking at it as if Motorola did this to prevent people from flashing custom roms. The real reason they did it was to prevent others from stealing their rom and porting it to another phone. If you like the "ninjablur" UI, you need to buy the DroidX.
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Actually, I don't agree. I'm pretty sure one could extract those widgets if you really wanted to. (They "Ain't all that" if you ask me. - And yes, I did buy an X yesterday and love it. Just ain't crazy about those widgets).
I think the real reason this is locked down is to prevent custom ROM/Root access to enable tethering. There are other issues I'm sure, but at the top of the list is to protect that revenue Big Red is trying to generate.
As to Google 'Stopping' the carriers from locking this down, please understand that if the carriers can't protect their revenue streams, they simply won't allow the phones on their network, and that would hinder the growth of the OS in general.
Don't take any of my words as endorsement of VZW/Moto actions. I'll be first in line to flash/root my phone when/if its ever possible. I'm just a realist. VZW wants $20/month for WiFi Tether. They are going to do as much as reasonably possible to keep you from doing that for free.
In a related note, 2.2 Froyo does tethering natively. I expect this to be crippled/disabled when we get our update in a couple of months.
I don't agree with the idea that companies would stop supporting the platform. The Droid has been a cash cow for verizon and it is an open book. Google could easily ask that their platform remain open for all to enjoy.
Beyond that, if Google allows them to gimp their OS then Google has created something entirely for the benefit of companies and not at all for the general population. I don't believe this is true. I think that the changes will start with Android v3.0. Google will start getting more pissy about custom crap especially if it makes their product seem worse and increase the chance that Android will be looked upon negatively.
Despiadado1 said:
I don't agree with the idea that companies would stop supporting the platform. The Droid has been a cash cow for verizon and it is an open book. Google could easily ask that their platform remain open for all to enjoy.
Beyond that, if Google allows them to gimp their OS then Google has created something entirely for the benefit of companies and not at all for the general population. I don't believe this is true. I think that the changes will start with Android v3.0. Google will start getting more pissy about custom crap especially if it makes their product seem worse and increase the chance that Android will be looked upon negatively.
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Its the same problem with windows, the OS gets blamed for what hardware vendors do to it... we see this $400 computers getting compared to Apples $1500+ computers and thats some how proof windows sucks, I never had problems with Vista being slow, but people and there $400 computer did.
The problem with Android, specifically the scrolling smoothness, is the vendors custom Android OS setups...
FtL1776 said:
Its the same problem with windows, the OS gets blamed for what hardware vendors do to it... we see this $400 computers getting compared to Apples $1500+ computers and thats some how proof windows sucks, I never had problems with Vista being slow, but people and there $400 computer did.
The problem with Android, specifically the scrolling smoothness, is the vendors custom Android OS setups...
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To be fair, I think the scrolling smoothness is half crappy hardware and half Android's lack of hardware acceleration.
Mikerrrrrrrr said:
To be fair, I think the scrolling smoothness is half crappy hardware and half Android's lack of hardware acceleration.
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No some custom roms fix those issues because they enable the hardware acceleration, which again shows that Google really should crack down on some of these custom versions of Android on phones.
Zaphod-Beeblebrox said:
Actually, I don't agree. I'm pretty sure one could extract those widgets if you really wanted to. (They "Ain't all that" if you ask me. - And yes, I did buy an X yesterday and love it. Just ain't crazy about those widgets).
I think the real reason this is locked down is to prevent custom ROM/Root access to enable tethering. There are other issues I'm sure, but at the top of the list is to protect that revenue Big Red is trying to generate.
As to Google 'Stopping' the carriers from locking this down, please understand that if the carriers can't protect their revenue streams, they simply won't allow the phones on their network, and that would hinder the growth of the OS in general.
Don't take any of my words as endorsement of VZW/Moto actions. I'll be first in line to flash/root my phone when/if its ever possible. I'm just a realist. VZW wants $20/month for WiFi Tether. They are going to do as much as reasonably possible to keep you from doing that for free.
In a related note, 2.2 Froyo does tethering natively. I expect this to be crippled/disabled when we get our update in a couple of months.
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Motorola has said so itself. The reason Droid X is locked down is because they don't want people stealing their custom UI. Widgets are only part of this UI. The inability to flash custom roms is merely a consequence of protecting their UI.
FtL1776 said:
No some custom roms fix those issues because they enable the hardware acceleration, which again shows that Google really should crack down on some of these custom versions of Android on phones.
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Ah. Didn't know that.
Hello,
I guess most of the People flashing WP7 on their HD2 do not have a WP7 License.
And by activating Windows Live services Microsoft gets to know your name, phone number, e-mail adress...
May Microsoft know that you do not own a WP7 device but only flashed it to your HD2?
Does nobody here believe that Microsoft could try to stop people flashing the Rom by using all legal steps possible?
What could happen? How are the possibilities for it to happen/not to happen?
What do you think?
i worried about that ...but i gave all fake information to microsft ...
I doubt microsoft would spend the time and money going after individual users just for using wp7 on their hd2. If anything, they will try to find a fix in their system to know if you have a genuine device or not and stop it from working, and I hear they have already sent a letter to a member of the dft team, which is why I don't think they officially released the rom here on xda. But it wouldn't be worth it for them to legally go after us end users... especially since we basically are using the key we got from them so we can buy apps from their app store, which is putting money in their pockets.
I doubt Microsoft will act on this. Sure, they might take some steps to make future updates more difficult to port or activate, but I doubt they will take legal action against the people running the OS.
For Microsoft, people running WP7 and activating Live services on their HD2 might even be a source of income, since they can buy stuff on the Market Place. I'm pretty sure they will conveniently count all LEO7 users the next time they brag about WP7's market share
Still, handset manufacturers will probably be less happy. If you can run WP7 on your HD2, there's not much incentive to buy a new phone with practically the same hardware just for the OS.
What could happen?
Maybe Microsoft will bring hundreds of users to trial and sentence them to death
No seriously, just imagine the huge effort to get a single user not to use the DFT WPH. This also would most probably result in bad newspaper articles against M$.
WPH is a thing were in my opinion ms should stop trying to be better or harder than appple and finding a middle-way between android and, you know, jailPhone.
Ah, back on topic.. i think nothing serious will happen, maybe ms tries to talk to the devs like they did with chevronWP7, but you wont be sentenced to death nor go to jail or something...
by using a pirate windows, M$ can know more info about you (even your naked foto), but have you ever heared someone be charged with pirate windows with no commercial use?
M/S could use legal action about copywrite theft but it would do is put someone already using a WinMo phone and trying to use a WP7 phone from leaving M/S forever. That would mean quite a few HD2 folks, when deciding about their next phone would blank out M/S.
M/S want WP7 to be a big success and the only way it will be big is if it gets a load of apps developed for it. And the only way it will get the iphone and android developers to make a WP7 app is if there is a big market for it. Now if M/S quote the number of WP7 phones that have been sold they will get a lot lot less than the number of activation licences for WP7 - now what number do you think M/S would want to broadcast? Yes they could exaggerate the number, but the real figure would get out.
Since Apple get a proportion of any apps sold, then no doubt M/S would go along the same lines, and this money would more than make up for the development costs.
The WP7 market share is well below ipohne o/s, Android, Symbian and Blackberry.
There are several possibilities... I think one thing is for sure: soon, they'll stop giving keys without IMEI or proof of purchase. I doubt they just ignore the issue, thinking of apps sales.
The lightest thing they'll do is ban all the keys given since yesterday. Some legit folks will be affected, but they just have to contact Microsoft. Microsoft might try to reach customers who asked for a key, so they confirm the possession of a legit WP7 device.
Can MS have access to the HD2 IMEI? Can they "ban" something besides being able to enter the Market?
If we consider lawsuits, a question arises: will they sue everyone who asked for a key or only those who've used it? Lawyers are expensive, but they are filthy rich!
So now we have a panic room in XDA.
Why are people afraid ? Did you still your HD2? Did you still your key? Will the LiVe services give you ilegitm money or pay app for free?
No I'm not a tief, I just ask a key that allowed that I can try a new WM SO on my WM Device I have just payed the license.
And MS have said to us, we can't have WP7S because of 3 keys issues, but now MS can be glad because we solve that issue for their.....it was MS that could pay some money for our development.
Comeone have you or no a WM Device, with licenses payed when you buy the HD2? I think yes, because I pay a lot of money for my HD2 WM Device.
An Alternative View...
I can understand why some are worrying about this but MS tend to go after larger organisations and even then have been known to be surprisingly reasonable - certainly when compared to the Adobe and Oracle sharks - providing people are trying to true up.
So I doubt they would go after individuals - if they were that litigious there is no way they would dish out activation codes without a few checks and balances.
But here's the other view; up until about 24 hours ago I hated WP7 with a passion. it seemed like a half-assed retrograde step from 6.5.5 and I was sore at MS for selling out to the Apple business model.
I don't eat humble pie too often, but I'm just about to - WP7 is pretty good and it may even be a keeper. It's lively, reasonably good fun and works quite nicely. I even think that Marketplace is as good as and perhaps even better than the App Store - I was surprised how many apps it had, including good quantities of free ones and although App Store must have more, many of them are utter rubbish. The fact that Marketplace lets you try before you buy is a massive plus and should allow users to filter out the rubbish.
Had it not been possible to get the phone activated and were it not for the good XDA-ers (and others) who have helped to unlock the device I wouldn't even have tried it, but when most of one's personal objections are removed, it becomes worth a look at least. My only major gripe at present is the lack of a decent Sat Nav.
So whether they meant to or not, MS have probably ensured that my next device will be a WP7 device and I would have said there was more chance of me eating my own face than doing that up until very recently. And that's without the money I have spent at Marketplace today and what I will spend in future.
Sense on the part of MS - unlikely. Coincidence and a loophole that will be closed soon - probably. Humble pie for tea? Definitely.
well Microsoft UK have stopped giving out codes and ask you to call HTC instead. i cant see Microsoft proceeding with legal as it would seem to be more hassle. i think they will start asking for more information about your phone when you ask for a code
IMO, why would they go so far as to go after individual users??? I believe they might contact DFT at the most. I mean, dont they want as much consumers using and experiencing their OS as possible, suscribing to Zune? Purchasing their apps???? I mean they should see this as more users getting to know and love WP7 and attracting more developers (since a lot of people hacking to these measures might be devs.) And maybe it will lead to users wanting a WP7 device as their next phone after being so pleased with the experience on their HD2... I mean, i doubt this would put a dent on WP7 sales overall since we are such a small # of users doing this. Just make it harder to get the code, and publically say "that they dont encourage/reccomend this and to get a real WP7 device yadda yadda yadda..."
Plus, we already have a license to use one of their OS's (WM6.5) so i bet they can be a bit more easy on us than to say... a port to an Android device
just a thought...
Didn't we already have a topic like this?
I think we got enough of an answer here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=10601038&postcount=16
how legal/illegal this might be I am of the belief that microsoft is smart enough to not waste money by going after all us individuals. I do believe that they might try to block us from using wp7 by applying new securityfeatures just like apple does with jailbreak though As said previously MS just stopped giving out keys in the UK and even though they would try to check then your phone would show up as a HD7. If they dig deeper they may be able to see that you really do not own a HD7, but again i do not believe they are willing to spend that much time.
Danation said:
Didn't we already have a topic like this?
I think we got enough of an answer here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=10601038&postcount=16
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good enough for me if thats the case LMAO
May be we should try to write the public letter to Microsoft with request to give us a possibility to buy a license for wp7? Why they allow to upgrade XP to W7 and don't allow to upgrade WM6.5->WP7?
I just happened to read an article over at pocket now:
http://pocketnow.com/windows-phone/microsoft-on-hacked-windows-phone-7-and-live-services
titled: Microsoft On Hacked Windows Phone 7 And Live Services
in their vain search for headline news it seems pocketnow made it a part of their duty to have Microsoft look into us getting Live ID keys for our HD2s running Windows Phone 7. Now Microsoft is saying their going to take a hard look into this pratice. who knows what is going to happen if Microsoft is going to ban the issued keys
by the amount of mad faces you can tell i'm pissed.
wether Microsoft new about what was going on or not, pocketnow just amplified the issue.
It was strange that Pocketnow chose to push Microsoft on the issue. Microsoft seemed to be (deliberately?) ignoring the HD2-WP7 key issue. Pocketnow is just forcing them to take a position - which helps noone (except Pocketnow).
I imagine that Microsoft wont be too active in pursuing our phones. They will probably just put in place a policy to restrict new keys.
Perhaps everyone is just jealous of us & our HD2....
coolfire said:
Perhaps everyone is just jealous of us & our HD2....
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Sounds like thats the case.
link is dead anyways >.<
Ive been following pocketnow.com for years, very disappointed in them for forcing this and publishing this article.
F*CK you Anton D Nagy!!!!!
jcsy said:
link is dead anyways >.<
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http://pocketnow.com/windows-phone/microsoft-on-hacked-windows-phone-7-and-live-services
Everybody should leave a comment on the article to show how let down you feel with them/author.
TheATHEiST said:
Ive been following pocketnow.com for years, very disappointed in them for forcing this and publishing this article.
F*CK you Anton D Nagy!!!!!
http://pocketnow.com/windows-phone/microsoft-on-hacked-windows-phone-7-and-live-services
Everybody should leave a comment on the article to show how let down you feel with them/author.
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I'm with you on this one.
As long as everyone is buying from the marketplace and not bloomin well ripping apps and side loading them, Microsoft will be happy, but alas with all things people feel the need to steal from others, Android is rife with piracy...
So I would imagine Microsoft would be very pleased with HD running WP7 and activating the Live services as they can get more revenue from the marketplace without having to support our devices in anyway.
JUST BUY SOME APPS people and we will be OK.
People always seems to immediately think just because you have cracked or hacked a device it means you are a pirate, this is not true
Tards at pocketnow grrr haters! Thats what they are!
Hmm they always been apple fanboyz, but this is it!
A little sidenote, if microsoft locks us out, I'll never ever buy a phone from them again. Customers will drop like flies, let's sit this one out.
One of the only results of the article is that more people will know about being able to flash the WP7 ROM on their HD2s. Microsoft was of course aware of the ROM and why the number of people asking for keys for WP7s increased. Microsoft surely had formulated their responses and policies on the situation long before pocketnow.com contacted them.
The only other result is more people can see what kind of outfit that site is.
Most likely this will have little effect on using the ROM or obtaining keys.
Yeah, I saw that article earlier. Was surprised they would press the issue, but you know journalists, they generally have no conscience, all they want is a story. Won't be supporting or recommending pocketnow from now on.
Think as a Microfoft guy. Some retards come and ask you if you are OK that your services are being hacked. Of course you will not say that you are OK with this. It's a completely different question if you will do something about it.
Although the term "hacking" is completely wrong here. We all have legitimate WP7 keys issued by MS. He have hacked NOTHING to get Live access. Some ppl even said honestly they have a HD2. The MS representative that gave me the key never asked me about my device btw.
Just see the matter from MS point of view: YOu have 10 000 or so Windows Mobile customers that have found a way to flash WP7 to their devices. Unfortunately for you these folks can also flash Android to their devices. What would you do? Shut them down and send them to Google?
rlydiard said:
One of the only results of the article is that more people will know about being able to flash the WP7 ROM on their HD2s. Microsoft was of course aware of the ROM and why the number of people asking for keys for WP7s increased. Microsoft surely had formulated their responses and policies on the situation long before pocketnow.com contacted them.
The only other result is more people can see what kind of outfit that site is.
Most likely this will have little effect on using the ROM or obtaining keys.
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Pocketnow already has tons of articles telling people that HD2 has got WP7 now.
What they did by this article was just to get Microsoft to look into a matter which they were most likely deliberately ignoring!
Am totally disappointed by Pocketnow!
Tanmay® said:
Pocketnow already has tons of articles telling people that HD2 has got WP7 now.
What they did by this article was just to get Microsoft to look into a matter which they were most likely deliberately ignoring!
Am totally disappointed by Pocketnow!
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Yes, I am quite aware of the articles that pocketnow.com has put online about HD2s running WP7. Partly because of those articles, and because Microsoft does indeed monitor XDA-Developer posts, they were indeed aware of the port since the beginning, and they certainly were aware of why so many people have been trying to obtain keys.
I doubt that Microsoft was deliberately ignoring the situation, but had already formulated their policies. And, as another poster pointed out, how do you expect Microsoft to respond when asked by a publication about the situation?
Microsoft could have come out with a much tougher statement, but they did not, so I still maintain that the situation for those who use WP7 ROMS on the HD2s will not drastically change, and that Microsoft will not make a sudden change of course here.
MS were already looking into this. You don't get to be the biggest software company by not knowing what is going on with your business.
Everyone should just relax. I've had a few friends who have told MS that they are running WP7 on HD2 and they need an activation code. MS gave them one, no questions asked.
If MS wanted to stop us using WP7 then they would have blocked ALL services by now. The HD2 is such a small share of their market, do you think they care? Not really. More exposure for them and their OS.
Personally, I don't really care either way. It would cost MS a few bucks to actively exclude certain phones. It isn't worth their time or effort. WP7 is a new OS. Why would they want to limit exposure?
Pocketnow are in it for the money. Any news is GOOD news.....
For all the people saying that they are disappointed by PN.COM,
Here is the response from the writer:
Anton D. Nagy said:
"@Adam Bentley, @luke Flex
Thanks for the kind words!
I get it you're neither a developer with software in the Marketplace nor songwriter/artist/or part of a band with its Music up on Zune. I understand you're not even part of an OEM or carrier that builds or sells smartphones or communication services and I think you’re not part of the team that made Windows Phone 7 possible. Simply put, I don't think you're someone who earns anything from the activities above. Should I wish you that your work, whatever it is that you do, would end up hacked/plagiarized the same way someday? No, I will not!
If you think that Anton, or even pocketnow.com for that matter, can do anything to influence a company like Microsoft, you're a fool! If you think that Anton, or even pocketnow.com for that matter, brought Microsoft the terrible news that its platform and services got hacked, you're a fool again!
What I'm saying here -- and this will be in no way considered pocketnow.com’s position -- is that I don't really care about the opinions of readers like you! Not because of the "screw you" part because we're professionals, but because the words that express your inappropriate thoughts, because of the mentality. You think you deserve to have something just because it simply can be achieved or because you own an HTC HD2? You disrespect the thousands who’ve worked hard for software that runs on hardware designed and manufactured by other thousands. You disrespect your fellow community members who have legitimately bought Windows Phone 7 software running on Windows Phone 7 hardware. Last but not least, you disrespect other pocketnow.com readers that might agree with the things I said above."
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To my mind, this answer is just a kind of hypocrisy, bc I don't think Microsoft would be angry if some thousands of users would buy applications from the market, or even if some HD2 users would develop some apps (Microsoft claims that developers are needed and welcome).
In addition, remember that a lot of us (and me in particular) have bought HD2 only because it was the first phone that would have an update to WP7...
To my mind, it's just fair for us to have a port, even hacked, to WP7 !
kawazaki said:
For all the people saying that they are disappointed by PN.COM,
Here is the response from the writer:
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The tool obviously doesn't realise the 'hack' does not allow carte blanch access to any Marketplace software, but only to free apps.
Poor journalism. But I'm sure Anton/PN is going to get a few extra hits out of this.
the only ones who will benefit from it are pocketnow.com, obviously.
I suggest we don't give them the attention they so loudely cry for, because they will bring XDA down. They disrespect developers, not vice versa.
Whatever goes on, I don´t care at all.
Yes, I indeed was hoping that WP7 would be ported for our HD2. Unfortunately, MS and HTC both missed the chance to offer this upgrade officially. Just try to imagine if they would have done this: There is a big chance that some longtime WinMo users would move over to the new platform - just thanks to a trial possibility.
The thing is: I think 80% of all HD2 owners don´t flash their devices. Imagine the possible boost for WP7 if all those were offered to upgrade officially. Great customer satisfaction generates positive mouth-to-mouth advertising.
If they start to fight the "hack", I believe the opposite will happen: More former "core" WinMo "power users" than before will move on to Android and iOS, the first is more "open" and the second is nicely jailbroken, both offering a massive number of apps. The result for MS is not only negative mouth-to-mouth advertising (the worst scenario a company can suffer), but also loss of ROI since less potential users buy stuff from marketplace, less potential users decide to use paid "Live" services (such as XBox Gold membership, let alone maybe even new potential buyers of that gaming platform), etc.
MS could simply decide to stop giving codes for "unsupported" hardware. Then again, HD2 is so close to HD7 that they might consider this device as "compatible". If they are even more clever, they could offer a trial, just as many app providers do in the marketplace. I would actually be willing to pay a couple of bucks if I would decide to keep WP7 - which is not the fact as of today, mainly because the OS isn´t ready yet imho.
I read the courts reviewed the ruling of phones being legal to root, but then judged that Tablets were a different story. I heard that with tablets to legally be able to root, you have to contact the manufacturer and get permission per ruling. I know this is bogus to many people, and most of you here I assume wouldnt care either way what the courts rule. So this thread is about the legality of the issue, not really meant for debate. I just want to know if it is considered legal to root the Nexus 7, is it allowed?
Righteous Joe said:
I read the courts reviewed the ruling of phones being legal to root, but then judged that Tablets were a different story. I heard that with tablets to legally be able to root, you have to contact the manufacturer and get permission per ruling. I know this is bogus to many people, and most of you here I assume wouldnt care either way what the courts rule. So this thread is about the legality of the issue, not really meant for debate. I just want to know if it is considered legal to root the Nexus 7, is it allowed?
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Where did you read this? Doesn't sound right to be honest, not sure how rooting a tablet would differ in a legal sense from rooting a phone, they are near enough the same device after all. Ultimately it is your device that you own so you are free to do with it as you wish, its not as if you're rooting will have a major impact on anyone else. Unless you are caught installing pirate apps which would be considered as illegal.
Writing "I read [...]" and then not following up with a source means you completely lack credibility
Maybe you are referring to the decision cited in these sources
http://www.theverge.com/2012/10/25/3556740/copyright-dmca-jailbreak-unlock-mod-ruling
https://www.federalregister.gov/art...pyright-protection-systems-for-access-control
Take your time and read these sources
Also take your time to read up on material by senior xda members on the difference between rooting your device and unlocking your bootloader. It basically renders your "illegal to root" statement completely invalid.
Moving back to the Nexus 7, although the ruling is vague as #@!$ when it comes to tablets, your not forcibly breaking open the bootloader; its practically an on/off switch on the N7--Google is not coming after you.
The common belief that jailbreaking is legal is wrong. US Digital Millennium Copyright Act was challenged, and it was accepted that it's legal to "jailbreak" a device for the purpose of carrier unlock, but not for other purpose.
As most tablets don't have 3G and thus no carrier......
Jailbreaking is illegal for iPad.
But unlocking and rooting a Nexus 7 is a whole different story. You don't need a exploit, thus you are not breaking any protection, that is why it is legal.
At least in the EU.
Sent from my GT-I9300 using xda app-developers app
There is a further distinction that can be drawn. In the case of an Android tablet it is using an OS that is in effect free of any restrictions - so you can "copy the book, change it and publish it, provided you acknowledge the source", contrast this with Microsoft and Apple ......sue,damages etc.
CrazyPeter said:
The common belief that jailbreaking is legal is wrong. US Digital Millennium Copyright Act was challenged, and it was accepted that it's legal to "jailbreak" a device for the purpose of carrier unlock, but not for other purpose.
As most tablets don't have 3G and thus no carrier......
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You are incorrect good sir. The jaillbreaking exemption, which is no longer valid, didn't come about from a legal challenge. It was granted by the Librarian of Congress under the normal review process that takes place every three years. Furthermore, rooting phones for purposes of installing and operating legally obtained software is also exempted.
To address the OP, there's a lot of FUD going around about rooting tablets. The factual reality is that absolutely nothing at all has changed. Rest assured that, contrary to the sensationalism from some, the sky is in no danger of falling.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
If rooting a tablet (tablet computer) is illegal, then why don't we get only user account on windows (Administrator account locked) and when we install Ubuntu, why are we not only provided with our user folder and don't have access to anything else? It's exactly the same. I don't know why Android, as basically another one of oh-so-many Linux distros would be the only one, where you are not aloud to access root folders? Linux is open source, and it is your right to be provided with root access.
And since the purpose of root on Android is not installing cracked apps (you can sideload them with enabling 'outer sources'), I see absolutely no reason, why wouldn't it be legal.
Is editing your BIOS settings on PC legal? Again, I don't see why different rules would apply to desktop then to smaller version of PC (which smartphones pretty much are).
You bought the device, it's yours. Even if you decide to take it to another carrier, you paid them, you accepted the contract, you pay penalty in case you cancel the contract sooner. Just because I bought a car in Germany, doesn't mean it's suddenly illegal to drive it in Slovenia.
iOS is different issue. It's not open source, but again I don't see why jailbreaking would be illegal. Of course, installing cracked apps is different, but that's illegal anywhere.
This kind of garbage bugs be to no end... If I buy product A, then I should be able to do what ever I want to product A how ever I want, in regards to electronics. I bought the device, and no judge is going to tell me I can not unlock/root/etc it.
Just ignore...how many movies/apps have you pirated...?
Most Android OEMs LET us root. No judge can change that, nor the open-source nature of Android as an operating system.
(Most) GNU/Linux distributions do allow us to login as the root user. Rooting an Android device is the same concept as logging on as root on GNU/Linux. It's there, you're welcome to use it, but don't blame us if something goes wrong.
---------- Post added at 07:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:39 PM ----------
CrazyPeter said:
The common belief that jailbreaking is legal is wrong. US Digital Millennium Copyright Act was challenged, and it was accepted that it's legal to "jailbreak" a device for the purpose of carrier unlock, but not for other purpose.
As most tablets don't have 3G and thus no carrier......
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How many people that jailbroke their iOS devices have not installed pirated apps? Does anyone _actually_ care about the DMCA?
In other words, you can't stop a hacker.
gnustomp said:
Just ignore...how many movies/apps have you pirated...?
Most Android OEMs LET us root. No judge can change that, nor the open-source nature of Android as an operating system.
(Most) GNU/Linux distributions do allow us to login as the root user. Rooting an Android device is the same concept as logging on as root on GNU/Linux. It's there, you're welcome to use it, but don't blame us if something goes wrong.
---------- Post added at 07:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:39 PM ----------
How many people that jailbroke their iOS devices have not installed pirated apps? Does anyone _actually_ care about the DMCA?
In other words, you can't stop a hacker.
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You know what, comments like you piss me off. I have downloaded my fair share of music, but when it comes to apps I will not pirate them. These developers work their asses off to make a decent app and then put a .99 price tag on them, and you claim that that is too damn expecive? You aren't a hacker, your just a jerk. I have bought over 150 apps on the play store, and I will continue to support the developers that work oh so hard for so little.
Good day sir.
AFAinHD said:
You know what, comments like you piss me off. I have downloaded my fair share of music, but when it comes to apps I will not pirate them. These developers work their asses off to make a decent app and then put a .99 price tag on them, and you claim that that is too damn expecive? You aren't a hacker, your just a jerk. I have bought over 150 apps on the play store, and I will continue to support the developers that work oh so hard for so little.
Good day sir.
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No offense, but the overly white knight attitude is just as bad as the pirate attitude.
when google comes after me for supporting their os with a law suit for changing my devices gui via root would be the end of days. So, yeah won't happen. sony and microsoft just ban people and their mac ip on their console i'd assume if they ever did do anything, they could ban you from market?
I Am Marino said:
No offense, but the overly white knight attitude is just as bad as the pirate attitude.
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Im not trying to be a white knight, I don't care about pirating music and movies, because they are overpriced as hell, but app developers work very hard for something that they put a .99 cent price tag on. There is no reason why you should not support them.
AFAinHD said:
There is no reason why you should not support them.
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Well I see at least one reason, (which of course is valid only to some apps, not all of them), and that is usualy true to big games only:
- how long have you today to request reffunds for apps you do not like / want / can not use? 15 minutes? or is it even shorter time now? (I do not know how it is now, sorry, I only use free/ad-supported apps now)
- how long does it takes for you to download 2GB of app data? For me it is definitly a LOT longer time that 15 minutes...
- which one of these (above mentioned) apps offer some kind of trial or limited demo or something? How can you try such apps to find out whether you like it or not ?
Can you see the reason for why not to support such apps? Or at least in the first place? Of coure that it is better (for many reasons) to buy the app in the end if you like it. But you can not tell that if you can not evaluate it.
And you are wrong that these apps cost lest than $1 and thus are cheap (or at least I understand that this was something you were triing to say), most of such apps cost $5-$15, and that can be realy a lot of money if you are not from US, just because you earn $15 per hour does not mean everyone does, there are countries where people works whole day or even week for $15.
Oh, and just to be clear: I do not thing that pirating software is good thing, but sometimes it is the only way how to evaluate something. And you should be allowed do do that, right? Or would you buy a car without (at least) triing to sit in it?
All right, all right, we can just preted that the apps (or game or music or anything) which looks like we want (or need) it does not exists, but to be honest: Can you realy do that? Especially when there is no similar replacement? Or would you just happily pay any price the DEV asks, hoping that it will be usefull to you?
And one more thing:
Lot of people here is stating that court or local law or anyone forbids/encourages something - well this kind of information is totally useless if you forget to tell us in which country/region is that true.
And just to prove my point: there is a country that legaly allows downloading of audio files. Also there is a coutry that allows legaly to use pirated Operating system (namely that was true for Windows XP, not sure if they extended that somehow). Is that information usefull to you? I do not think so, unless you live there and in that case, you should already now...
..
I don't mean to derail the thread but since it's been brought up I wanted to address this quickly.
AFAinHD said:
Im not trying to be a white knight, I don't care about pirating music and movies, because they are overpriced as hell, but app developers work very hard for something that they put a .99 cent price tag on. There is no reason why you should not support them.
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I'm going to try to do this without any self promotion.
It's funny that you say that. As a musician and songwriter who sells tracks at $.99 a piece (and have spent more money on recording equipment and music distribution to never break even), I beg to differ, and I don't have a band helping me out. I put out my albums for the cost of total tracks or maybe a dollar less for that "added value" feeling. Or I let people pay whatever they want thanks to my official online store giving me the ability to set that.
I'm not trying to start an argument or fight, but I just want to enlighten you on this point. Whether it's music or app development, creativity and hard thinking and writing\coding is involved. In both processes there is a lot of trial and error, time and money spent. The pricing of an app or a music track seems to be dependent on the value to the people as seen by the authors. Music seems more standardized whereas different apps will have different prices depending on what they do. But that does not mean there was any less effort or creativity put into music or films than an app. To offset the pirating a lot of musicians at least ask to recommend to friends in hopes that someone buys our tracks to help offset the cost of what we had to pay to put the music out there in the first place.
In the days of filesharing about 8 or so years ago I had downloaded some music. Those programs got old and died, and since then I have only bought CDs or used legal streaming services, typically from those artists I used to download music from. Now that my music is for sale in places I understand the arguments both in favor of free sharing and against it. There's a solution to both.
In either case, in the end we all just want to make even a little money for our creations. I don't think it's logical to suggest that music is overpriced because doesn't take as much effort as app development.
Back to your regularly scheduled programming....
This i totally agree with .This can stand for anything rather its music apps or even a drawing of a home done in Cad or even a book.. Think if you spend 2 years writing a Book. Then two days after its released you see it on a pirated site when its being retailed for 13.00 .While you have 2 years worth of bills piled up unpaid.Hoping the book sales. App developers often go thru this same thing. I like most everyone else did download some music in the past.NO longer would I do so . Never software and never reading material. Now if its not legal its not coming in our home or on my devices..If its to expensive the author or developer did not want to sell it.
Bottom line is support the people who Create the things that make your life enjoyable and easier to live. They wanna make ends meet to.. But its not really about the money its about what is right and wrong..
sgtpepper64 said:
I don't mean to derail the thread but since it's been brought up I wanted to address this quickly.
I'm going to try to do this without any self promotion.
It's funny that you say that, as a musician and songwriter who sells tracks at $.99 a piece (and have spent more money on recording equipment and music distribution to never break even), I beg to differ, and I don't have a band helping me out. I put out my albums for the cost of total tracks or maybe a dollar less for that "added value" feeling. Or I let people pay whatever they want thanks to my official online store giving me the ability to set that.
I'm not trying to start an argument or fight, but I just want to enlighten you on this point. Whether it's music or app development, creativity and hard thinking and writing\coding is involved. In both processes there is a lot of trial and error, time and money spent. The pricing of an app or a music track seems to be dependent on the value to the people as seen by the authors. Music seems more standardized whereas different apps will have different prices depending on what they do. But that does not mean there was any less effort or creativity put into music or films than an app. To offset the pirating a lot of musicians at least ask to recommend to friends in hopes that someone buys our tracks to help offset the cost of what we had to pay to put the music out there in the first place.
In the days of filesharing about 8 or so years ago I had downloaded some music. Those programs got old and died, and since then I have only bought CDs or used legal streaming services, typically from those artists I used to download music from. Now that my music is for sale in places I understand the arguments both in favor of free sharing and against it. There's a solution to both.
In either case, in the end we all just want to make even a little money for our creations. I don't think it's logical to suggest that music is overpriced because doesn't take as much effort as app development.
Back to your regularly scheduled programming....
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Hi all.
Haven't seen this topic yet so I thought I'd introduce it. Has a petition ever been sent directly to Microsoft to allow jailbreaking and development of apps in a Cydia like store. I'm positive this would increase the popularity of wp8. There are are so many little things like decreasing the interval for updating live tile, and creating playlists on the phone itself. Widgets would also be nice. I just got a 920 and like it a lot. I was using launcher8 on my gn2 before and that launcher allowed widgets on tiles, more rectangular tile options etc.
Are you really think that Microsoft or somebody else care about these petitions?
Useless guy said:
Are you really think that Microsoft or somebody else care about these petitions?
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if enough people sign, then yes I do. I'm convinced that many iOS and android users would try a windows phone. There would be far more developers making apps also.
Jailbreaking will never be allowed on windows phone becuase Microsoft wants to win over the business sector. One of the reason the secure boot was implemented was because of businesses complaining about security on WP7.
Besides, there aren't really BIG things to get from jailbreaking, other than useless things some individuals care about. the vast majority of WP8 users are happy with their phones, plus most of the things you are asking (like adding playlists on the phone), will be supported eventually.
Lowering the interval for live tiles is a really bad idea btw.
If microsoft ever allows access to the file system, there will be no need for anything else: developers will pick it up from there and do their thing.
Ain't ever going to happen. Ms is bent over backwards by OEMS and carriers
Sent from my Arc using xda app-developers app
we need to start a kickstarter or offer a bounty on xda
I am sure if we started a bounty or kickstarter and rightfully paid one of the hackers to jailbreak wp8 they could get the job done a lot sooner
so how shall we go about this?
I am ready to offer my contribution
noelito said:
I am sure if we started a bounty or kickstarter and rightfully paid one of the hackers to jailbreak wp8 they could get the job done a lot sooner
so how shall we go about this?
I am ready to offer my contribution
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Still won't happen dude. I don't know but there seems to be some sort of aversion to WP by all the devs. The iPhone/iPad community has a number of devs piling over eachother to bring out the "next best way to JB". Android, I don't even need to get started. Other OSs too will fall in place soon. But what keeps the devs away from WP is a bit of a mystery to me.
BTW, I hope you know what happened to the kids that jailbroke the first Gen WP devices. They got hired by MS and were given a T shirt, if my memory is good.
So... that's that.
It's hilarious how you people believe that is easy to exploit WP8, Devices that use it have Secure Boot and Bitlocker so exploiting the boot process is practically impossible, exploiting on app-level is also hard as all apps run over a sandbox and the user has no administrator privileges so you can't use the sandbox exploitation available for Windows RT.
Plus there's overall no appeal for hacking it other than it runs over NT.
I think we should do it, there is nothing to loose, but it shouldn't be for jail breaking but for allowing file system access similar to Windows RT
Everybody can try to found a exploit.
If somebody will have luck, he will be the man....
But like people here say...
Its very very hard!
Sent from my GT-I8750 using Board Express
It's better for Microsoft (in the long run) that the OS will not be jailbroken: Jailbroken devices can install pirated applications, and pirated applications makes application developers angry.
Currently, app devs have no choice but to develop their applications to the 2 major OSs out there (iOS and Android), and know that in some point it is quite likely that people who jailbreak their devices can install pirated copies of their applications.
In the long run, as WP would start gaining major market share, application developers would be more keen to focus their development for WP as they'd know their property could not be pirated (if, supposedly, WP will remain unhacked).
This is of course only hypothetical - there's no protection which is made by men and cannot be hacked by men, and I'm more than sure that the more user-base and interest WP gains, the more likely is that someone would find a loophole in the OS and it'd be jailbroken...
And maybe not
Thread moved to General
I am as well very certain that Microsoft will not allow for Jailbreaking of the devices. They have some programs that will get you a free dev account to develop on top of the Plattform but they don't Support changes to the Plattform itself. If you want to make your Point about giving Devs certain APIs go to wpdev.uservoice.com and Support them with your votes.
As for jailbreaking WP: I'm sure it can be done because in the end: techniques exist to exploit basically everything but as was already said: Microsoft isn't making it easy.
StevieBallz said:
I am as well very certain that Microsoft will not allow for Jailbreaking of the devices. They have some programs that will get you a free dev account to develop on top of the Plattform but they don't Support changes to the Plattform itself. If you want to make your Point about giving Devs certain APIs go to wpdev.uservoice.com and Support them with your votes.
As for jailbreaking WP: I'm sure it can be done because in the end: techniques exist to exploit basically everything but as was already said: Microsoft isn't making it easy.
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It may be possible, but as for now they have closed damn near every hole we could think of. I'd say the only way we can hope for SOME progress is if we can exploit the root certificate and policies somehow. I know GoodDayToDie had a few good potential ideas. It's not that the device NEEDS to be jailbroken, we need to be given more trust. I feel as if Microsoft automatically feels like we will screw everything up so it's being our overprotective mother instead. We all know what happens when you are too overprotective to those you care about.....
With that said, if we can just be given a LITTLE more freedom.. That's all I ask for. I don't think we would have to worry about any type of malware since the App Hub process is smart enough to give me the red X if I'm trying to call MessageBox.Show() from a background task.
/endrant.
What if we paid you the bounty?
Sent from my SGH-T899M using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
iOS is certified afaik for government use, so the business security issue is specious. Not everybody will hack their device anyway.
There are different levels of security certifications, similarily to Mil-Spec Standards that exist for a lot of different criteria. Allowing people to do more with their devices isn't really at the core of Microsoft's concerns here. They don't try to push it though as they want applications in the Store and not on the web. Piracy is likely to play a role here too.
As for a bounty to make a JailBreak happen - it might be an incentive for certain developers to start looking into it. With WP7 the way most of the time was to hack the Bootloader and then flash a custom ROM to allow for additional access. With WP8 people might need to look into other ways in given that Secure Boot is likely to be a very hard nut to crack. Given that the original Jailbreak for WP7 relied on custom certificates it's likely that Microsoft invested there to close this off better but it's of course still worth investigating.
The more important part in the end would be to get Microsoft to make more available through the official APIs. They are extending those and this has made more functionality available every time they did a major update to the OS (Mango, Apollo).
Another point to note is that native interop is now part of the regular SDK. It's therefore likely that native APIs will be better protected against accesses from unauthorized Apps than they have been in WP7 (where the problem was getting native code to run at all).
RCranium666 said:
if enough people sign, then yes I do. I'm convinced that many iOS and android users would try a windows phone. There would be far more developers making apps also.
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Not trying to be negative but I don't think the would care. On their won suggestion site (http://windowsphone.uservoice.com/forums/101801-feature-suggestions/suggestions/2281201-custom-sounds-for-sms-mms-email-notifications-e) the haven't even responded to the 40,000 + petitions that people have been voting for 2 years for custom MMS\SMS; something that is so easy to do.
Thanks for everyone's responses. I just went back to my gn2. I found too many compromises in wp8. The funny thing is, I use a wp8 launcher on android and it's much more versatile than wp8 itself. The l920 was also a disappointment. I'm no stranger to phone cameras and I was rarely able to take a good picture with it. I like the l920's design better than the gn2, but not much else.