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Hi there people,
I've started a petition in Change.org hopping that Microsoft listen to it.
Let me be clear about it:
I am not asking to neutralize Metro, as I understand it is the only way to have a proper Windows, fully funtional, into a Touch device, such tablets or laptops.
I am only asking to let us decide if we want Metro activated or not in Desktop PCs. Today's world is made of decisions. Let us decide on our own what we want.
We will all have the same Kernel, same core and same quality and performance, and being able to choose interface, will add the best experience for each one of us: the one we trully want.
Please sign the petition, and make it reach Microsoft.
Thank u very much.
http://www.change.org/petitions/microsoft-company-allow-to-disable-or-decide-whether-we-want-metro-interface-or-not
PS: I couldn' find Microsoft e-mail from Redmond or similar, if anyone has it, please PM me, and I'll add it to the petition.
Thanks. I've tried the Consumer Preview and couldn't agree more. Signed.
nodjack said:
Thanks. I've tried the Consumer Preview and couldn't agree more. Signed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Little by Little, lets change it and improve Windows! thanks!
If you can't accept Metro then stay with Windows 7, simple as that. Support for Win7 has been extended till 2020 so there is no need to move on to Windows 8 if you don't like its interface.
I am not against Metro, I like it, but against HOW they implemented it for desktop PCs. For tablets and netbooks or smaller notebooks with touchscreen it's actually realy great.
The point is the missing harmony between the old styled windows desktop you are using the most time if you are at home or at work and the new Metro UI, espacily the switching between the two modes and the implemantation of elemental functions like the system settings.
It's like an interuption if you "click" start. I am not against a new type of "start menu/screen" but it should fit the design and "feeling". It should support the (desktop)user in his work. In the current way this is not possible. The Metro surface allows to pin this realy nice live tiles (I realy like them!)... but if I push the start button I want to start a new application to do some work.
Ok, I can pin my favourite applications on the screen like I did with Windows 7 by pinning my mostly used programs to the start screen. But some applications I am using are changing by time so i enjoy the feature of the dynamical menu entries of frequently used programs like in vista and 7. If I want the same quick program launch on Metro I have to pin a lot of tiles to the screen and the live tiles become obsolete because they are somewhere right out of the screen.
They could have done it so much better...
the best way (in my oppinion) for desktops would have been to
a) chose between metro on - metro off
or
b)go much further:
1. consistent design (colors, icons, fonts,...)
2. pin live tiles on the desktop (like on metro start screen, maybe with a smaller size) or the taskbar (only with the notification, no messages, like it's done on MacOS or the IE9)
3. run Metro styled apps in a new kind of window including the buttons from the charmbar (share, search, settings). so all this "swiping" (with a mouse!) is not necesary but you get some kind of consistence between the usability of tablets, deskopts, and phone but keep the simple task management from windows.
4. a start menu mix between the old one and the search dialog from Metro.
Hm... just noticed my english sucks to express my rage about win 8 xD
Maybe I should run Photoshop and make some concepts how it should look
morpheuszg said:
If you can't accept Metro then stay with Windows 7, simple as that. Support for Win7 has been extended till 2020 so there is no need to move on to Windows 8 if you don't like its interface.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is it so hard to add an option to get both interfaces ? Just to keep everybody happy and updated.
I don't think so.
I like the new kernel, about a 25% smaller, very fast and better working. I don't wanna miss that, but I am totally against buying a new Touch Monitor only for using Win 8.
That's too much for me. And if u take a look over some forums, we are many who think the same.
plus there are some nice new features in windows 8
Plus, I'd love to be able to sync between Win 8 without Metro on my desktop and Win 8 on my future tablet with Metro.
So yeah, staying on Windows 7 is a poor solution.
lol...trust me, this won't make any difference. Half of the internet doesn't like Metro (myself included).
Microsoft know this...they are aware of what people are saying, but they won't change it.
the_scotsman said:
Microsoft know this...they are aware of what people are saying, but they won't change it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, I (and others) will vote with my wallet. Hopefully Microsoft will change it for win9. I don't see how win8 is better than win7. Anything new is metro related, which is useless for desktop.
P. S.
I switched to Kubuntu on one of my computers already. It has all I need.
I find Windows 8 is boooting up and running faster than Windows 7.
There is a lot more than just Metro that's changed. The kernel has been improved for one thing.
Yeah.. Voting with my wallet sounds about right. Not digging the demo builds right now.
Microsoft has this knack for screwing the pooch on revolutionary software. Lets face it, 2002 was basically updated NT4 and XP took that and stuff that ACTUALLY work from WinME.. Not there was. Vista was the first "new" Windows in a while. And Win7 is still version 6 [dot something]. Any OS that has been successful also had decent hardware to back it up.
That being said... This is a preview build. MS have heavily inferred they are giving someyhing that is nothing like the RTM. Well for PCs at least.
Sent from my MB860 using xda premium
What I cannot understand is why Microsoft, in the past, launched about 10 or so versions of windows 7 ( Enterprise, Home Premium, Starter, Profesional, Ultimate, Enterprise N, Home Premium N, Profesional N, Ultimate N... etc ) and now, when they really need to add One more version with Normal Desktop added in kernel, they decide not to do it.
It's a pity, but there's going to be a lot of people staying in Win 7 or migrating to Linux or Mac.
You know Metro isnt your only option right, you can go to desktop mode as well?
I haven't tried the consumer preview, but I used the developer preview extensively, and I remember that there was a registry key you could modify and get the win7 interface back...
krapplejaxx said:
I haven't tried the consumer preview, but I used the developer preview extensively, and I remember that there was a registry key you could modify and get the win7 interface back...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Doesn't work on the Consumer Preview. All the Windows 7 Start Menu bits have been removed from this build.
andrew2163 said:
You know Metro isnt your only option right, you can go to desktop mode as well?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's a white lie. When you pick desktop mode you dont get same desktop as always. You get a reduced version without stat button.
And in new desktop you get instead 4 motion-reactive corners that, for instance in some FPS games just sucks and bothers all the time.
Thats the desktop you get: a reduced, corner-active,weird version of what real desktop was.
Lie to yourself not to us.
i dont get it,
the desktop is still there , right? so why this petition.
dont like metro, dont use metro apps!
---------- Post added at 06:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:54 PM ----------
xatornet said:
That's a white lie. When you pick desktop mode you dont get same desktop as always. You get a reduced version without stat button.
And in new desktop you get instead 4 motion-reactive corners that, for instance in some FPS games just sucks and bothers all the time.
Thats the desktop you get: a reduced, corner-active,weird version of what real desktop was.
Lie to yourself not to us.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
, desktop is there, window app function like it always has , start menu is there, just lil a bit hidden and replace with metro theme. OMG you sound like whining for nothing.
dialupboy said:
desktop is there, window app function like it always has , start menu is there, just lil a bit hidden and replace with metro theme. OMG you sound like whining for nothing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Start menu? No. Metro is not start menu. And the petition is to ADD a selection of kind of interface, not to erase Metro. Read it first, and then start spitting your thoughts.
I do not want to have a "bit hidden and replaced" start menu. I like it as it was before, because it defined Windows as Operative System. What we are having now is a weird mixture of Windows Phone and Xbox Dashboard, which is wonderfull for Tablets, but a complete sh*t for Desktops with keyboard and mouse.
If you like metro, allright, keep it, but why not having an option to get traditional start menu? Would it be so hard to get questioned at installation whether I want it or not?
I am asking to add something more to the OS, not to erase something from it.
And if my whining bothers you, feel free to get out of this thread and visit different ones. Thanks.
have you tried using the hot key short cuts? or navigating metro by typing the app name you are looking for? I take it both are likely no. I'm telling you Metro isn't just for touch screens, a power user can navigate it quickly with no trouble, and it's a lot easier than searching through an endless list of programs in the start menu. If you want 8 and the start menu just add http://www.vistastartmenu.com/ MS shouldn't stop trying to revolutionize the way we use computers over people who want to hold on to the old way. Touch screens are becoming increasingly more common, smart phones and tablets are changing the way people learn to interact with software, and Microsoft is headed in the direction it should be.
http://catholictechgeek.blogspot.com/2012/08/does-windows-8-and-winrt-mean-death-to.html
The article above has my full thoughts, but I wonder if there is a bit too much push for the graphical user interface in Windows 8 (and WinRT) and because of this, the survival of the command line in Windows (the thing that a bunch of the rom tools run on) is in jeopardy.
Given how worthless winRT is, useful programs like kitchens will never, ever appear on them. MS will have to keep the command line unless they want to lose everyone to linux/mac.
Even android phones have a working command line.
Just thought I would confirm that the Command line (cmd) is still present in Windows 8. As far as I'm aware there was never any talk about removing it.
they will never remove the command prompt, neither the new powershell....
on RT version, the final user will never use it.. but I think that will be present...
m0nkf1sh said:
Just thought I would confirm that the Command line (cmd) is still present in Windows 8. As far as I'm aware there was never any talk about removing it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Correct, the command line is still there as well as PowerShell.
WinRT resembles Windows 8 in UI looks only. Nothing under that is the same as Win8.
It's like comparing an Android Device to a Desktop PC and wondering why you can't run the same programs on them.
Talderon said:
WinRT resembles Windows 8 in UI looks only. Nothing under that is the same as Win8.
hem.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
actually it is still the NT kernel in WInRT adapted to ARM underneath I believe, similar to Windows phone, but yeah possibly no command line but i'd hope maybe powershell might be there...
And now the whole situation of "same program, different architectures" is back (after about 6 years).I remember back in the early days of Windows Mobile, you had the issue a developer releasing different builds of the some program for ARM, MIPS, and SH3. Eventually, ARM won out and program installation packages were (somewhat) standardized. Now, we have the issue between ARM and x86. Luckily, Microsoft has made this easier with the windows 8 store, so things aren't fragmented like before. This is probably why there is no real Desktop mode included in the ARM build of Windows 8.
Steven855 said:
And now the whole situation of "same program, different architectures" is back (after about 6 years).I remember back in the early days of Windows Mobile, you had the issue a developer releasing different builds of the some program for ARM, MIPS, and SH3. Eventually, ARM won out and program installation packages were (somewhat) standardized. Now, we have the issue between ARM and x86. Luckily, Microsoft has made this easier with the windows 8 store, so things aren't fragmented like before. This in probably why there is no real Desktop mode included in the ARM build of Windows 8.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't see an issue with ARM vs. x86 in this same context as the x86 tablet will run like an Ultra Mobile PC.
ARM will be treated the same as Mobile Phones of the same architecture as it is today.
>However, there is still no word yet on whether Microsoft will include the command line for the ARM build of Windows 8.
According to this presentation slide of PowerShell 3.0 (at TechEd 2012), PS3 will support Windows RT. If PS is present, by extension CLI is available.
http://video.ch9.ms/teched/2012/na/WSV414.pptx
e.mote said:
>However, there is still no word yet on whether Microsoft will include the command line for the ARM build of Windows 8.
According to this presentation slide of PowerShell 3.0 (at TechEd 2012), PS3 will support Windows RT. If PS is present, by extension CLI is available.
http://video.ch9.ms/teched/2012/na/WSV414.pptx
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And there we have it folks!
I am still waiting on word on when we can pre-order the MS Surface. So far, from the Spec's everyone else has shown for their offerings, not much reason to jump ship to another brand. (yet)
Press Windows Key +X and you'll see two command prompts shortcuts...
this should be clarified - ROM tools in Windows RT aren't going to have a barrier in the shape of a command line so much as they'll have a barrier in that all current windows ROM utilities are either for x86 CPUs or Java (and java has no Windows ARM VM) and as such wouldn't run on WinRT's command line anyway.
I don't think an X86 emulator will be an option for Windows RT and the ARM architecture either.
The command line is actually alive and well in Windows 8 and Windows Server 2012. If anything Microsoft is moving the capabilities of the command line forward in recent years. The Power Shell allows to configure a huge part of Windows and Server Software based upon it (e.g. Exchange) that previously was not easily configurable through scripts.
Concerning Windows RT on ARM tablets the problems go much deeper than the command line. The RT-Apps won't be able to install device drivers for Smartphones to access them - this will also be true for official companion apps. Unless there is a class driver like for many printers, keyboards, etc. Windows RT simply won't support connection to those devices (again, this only applies to the ARM version).
For many reasons x86 isn't going anywhere and this limited support of peripherals is just one of them.
According to the Synofsky blog post, RT does support at least the v4 print class driver, but not v3. No mention is made for other peripherals, however.
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2012/07/25/simplifying-printing-in-windows-8.aspx
It depends on what role MS sees for RT going forward. If RT is to be a limited OS to compete with Android/iOS, then printing support may be it. But if RT is to be a full counterpart of x86, other peripherals support will need to happen.
Looking long term, ARM will play a larger role than x86 in the trend of ever-smaller devices, with increasing emphasis on battery life. From this, my educated guess is that RT won't be the ugly duckling for long.
Let's face it, RT is a work-in-progress. Peripheral support is Windows' strongest card against the other mobile OS'es (and Linux). My take is that it will happen contigent to the above, but it won't be this initial iteration.
In short, don't take the limitations of this v1.0 as being cast in stone.
Talderon said:
Correct, the command line is still there as well as PowerShell.
WinRT resembles Windows 8 in UI looks only. Nothing under that is the same as Win8.
It's like comparing an Android Device to a Desktop PC and wondering why you can't run the same programs on them.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually, that is factually incorrect. Windows RT shares substantial code with Windows 8, as Microsoft has confirmed many times in the Windows 8/RT development blog.
I'm a major power user of Windows. At work, I am a sysadmin, managing hundreds of Windows servers (from 2003 to 2008 R2). Exchange servers, Citrix/Terminal servers, Active Directory are my specialties. I have experience with programming .NET, VBScript, php, and a bit of Java. I would say I have about 18 years of computing experience, the first problem I had to fix myself was DOS6.22 not locating my CDROM drive, the issue turned out to be an mscdex problem
I'm pretty good with *nix as well, though not as good as my Windows skills, I am pretty good with my way around command line on bsd and linux. Although I have a passion for PCs, I have also dabbled with macs, and can manage and repair them as well. Oh I completely forgot to mention my hardware background, but I don't really do too much with that nowadays, so might not be that relevant.
Over the last year I have started to play with Android devices, I have a Motorola Droid4 as my phone, and a Nexus 7 as my tablet.
My PC usage habits have changed since I got my first tablet, I use my PC for what I would consider, advanced tasks. Things like building ISOs, and bootable USB sticks, repairing/managing my android devices (things like moto rsdlite, or factory restore on my nexus 7), banking, deep research, and working from home (which includes a variety of management of system utilities using RDP to the office). I have been using Windows 8 for about a day and like to new interface of the desktop but find the "Windows 8 Style" (formerly known as metro) pretty disappointing since it's a 1 app at a time thing, NOT something I would want to do on my PC (I mean how often do you have only one thing up on the screen, that's fullscreen??). Is there a way I can use Windows 8 in desktop only mode? I don't know about you, but doing development in Metro doesn't seem very smart to me...
and your point being? cannot believe i wasted my time reading this post...
http://google.com/search?q="windows+8"+desktop+mode+default
e.mote said:
http://google.com/search?q="windows+8"+desktop+mode+default
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
He is so experienced, yet he does not know how to search? you should not feed the trolls
nitr8 said:
He is so experienced, yet he does not know how to search? you should not feed the trolls
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I spent about 2 hours searching last night with no success. But to desktop mode had been disabled in RTM, which is why I've posted a thread on this forum. Xda always has ways around things.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
>But to desktop mode had been disabled in RTM
You're saying that the methods in the below link (2nd link in above Google search) no longer work?
http://blog.laptopmag.com/6-ways-to-totally-avoid-metro-and-use-only-desktop-mode-in-windows-8
I'll have the RTM installed this weekend and will find out first hand. My real interest in Win8 is Windows-to-Go, and I'll see if it can be done with the Pro edition. If not, then we'll need to get more creative.
>Xda always has ways around things.
XDA is strong with Android, but there are better forums for Win8 info.
e.mote said:
>But to desktop mode had been disabled in RTM
You're saying that the methods in the below link (2nd link in above Google search) no longer work?
http://blog.laptopmag.com/6-ways-to-totally-avoid-metro-and-use-only-desktop-mode-in-windows-8
I'll have the RTM installed this weekend and will find out first hand. My real interest in Win8 is Windows-to-Go, and I'll see if it can be done with the Pro edition. If not, then we'll need to get more creative.
>Xda always has ways around things.
XDA is strong with Android, but there are better forums for Win8 info.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Regarding boot to desktop review the following link:
http://www.zdnet.com/microsoft-said...-straight-to-desktop-in-windows-8-7000002219/
Don't waste your time with pro, you'll need enterprise for Windows-to-Go.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
desktop is there, click desktop or hit the win button,
use metro as a start menu, apps are apps, wee programs to run on metro, applications or programs are big programs to run in desktop
in short, consider getting used to it. as you at length told us, you know a great deal, and pulling out the mscdex issue suggests....very little actually, as to know what you were doing with that would have required you to learn how to use it and know that was only one half of the potential issues with cd drives.
so my point being, try it, learn it, get used to it, and i can promise you, you'll go back to win 7 or xp one day and think is like stepping back in time to some god forsaken inefficient decade of OS design,
>Don't waste your time with pro, you'll need enterprise for Windows-to-Go.
That's the official line. The imagex route worked for the CP, so I'll try that for the Pro and see what happens. Else, we'll see.
In any case, I've no doubt that the WTG feature will be hacked out and made available as a standalone before long. It's the cherry on top of Win8, and a bull's-eye for every hacker.
As dazza said: Search. Try different things. And have patience and wait for solutions. Remember that Win8 isn't officially released yet.
MS can block certain methods, but it cannot block everything, like setting up a task or a keyboard macro to bypass the UI on boot-up. Here's one method (yes, this came up in a search):
http://pureinfotech.com/2012/08/14/script-bypass-start-screen-windows-8-desktop/
Anyway, your disdain of Metro is a common refrain, and there'll be solutions to address it.
I need to get a good ebook on Win8 nuts & bolts. Any recommendations out there? OK I'll take my own advice and search before ask..."Windows 8 Unleashed"..."Windows 8 for Dummies"
Thanks, that's a good suggestion; creating the scheduled task. At this point a lot of the OS is pretty much what I would consider "half baked". Reminds me of a Blackberry situation, where they have this grand OS, with not a lot of developer support. I'd like to get my google apps into the metro portion, and I am hoping in the future something will come along to replace the desktop without the start menu (seems sort of like a silly solution to force people to use metro). I'm not against the metro UI, for what I use PCs for it just doesn't really work that well.
I'm planning on continuing to use it for another month, and since I'm an MS admin, it's something I'll have to get used to whether I like it or not, that's why I came to this forum to ask around.
Again, thanks for the searching on the issue. I'm sure this will help others in their search for a boot to desktop solution.
danifunker said:
Thanks, that's a good suggestion; creating the scheduled task. At this point a lot of the OS is pretty much what I would consider "half baked". Reminds me of a Blackberry situation, where they have this grand OS, with not a lot of developer support. I'd like to get my google apps into the metro portion, and I am hoping in the future something will come along to replace the desktop without the start menu (seems sort of like a silly solution to force people to use metro). I'm not against the metro UI, for what I use PCs for it just doesn't really work that well.
I'm planning on continuing to use it for another month, and since I'm an MS admin, it's something I'll have to get used to whether I like it or not, that's why I came to this forum to ask around.
Again, thanks for the searching on the issue. I'm sure this will help others in their search for a boot to desktop solution.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
my point is, you dont have to use it other than for a fancy start menu, and even then you dont have to use it, pin a folder to the task bar and you have an instant ld fashioned start menu.
think of it this way, turn PC on, up pops metro giving you at a glance a little bit of info on everything you have setup, pop in to desktop and get on with work, every now and then you can flick to metro to get a little update, if you want to read more without opening the full blown program an app may do the job, if you need to do a bit more work with the item in question then you can fire up the main program, its just a different way of thinking, but i can assure you, if you put in the effort, you will find your productivity measurably improved!
>At this point a lot of the OS is pretty much what I would consider "half baked"
I see Win8 as work in progress, which probably means the same as yours. Yes, desktop/Metro integration is poor. But MS had to implement a touch UI, integrate it with existing WIMP UI, set up an app store infrastructure, and support the ARM platform. That's a lot for one rev, so it'll take two (or more). I think of RTM as Release Preview 2.
My SWAG is that Win8 will have a mixed reception, and MS will quickly push out a service pack next year to address the shortcomings.
x86 aside, I'm interested in how WinRT will fare. As do MS, no doubt. The rumor of $199 RT toy has at least a whiff of truth to it.
Classic Shell now supports RTM, and has options to bypass Metro UI & disable hot corners
http://www.overclock.net/t/1295961/sf-classic-shell-is-officially-released-for-windows-8-rtm
For those who have Synaptic touchpads, you can use the latest Win7 drivers, although edge-swipe functions aren't implemented:
http://www.synaptics.com/resources/drivers/
Win8 beta Synaptics driver w/ edge-swipes below. It works, but is a little buggy. Left-edge swipe (task switch) gets activated at odd times.
http://drivers.softpedia.com/progDo...161811-for-Windows-8-x64-Download-172310.html
Frankly, for non-touchscreen PCs, you won't miss the Metro UI or the edge swipes. Will have to know your shortcuts, though.
Better yet,
http://www.msfn.org/board/topic/157302-windows-7-explorer-for-windows-8/
danifunker said:
I'm a major power user of Windows. At work, I am a sysadmin, managing hundreds of Windows servers (from 2003 to 2008 R2). Exchange servers, Citrix/Terminal servers, Active Directory are my specialties. I have experience with programming .NET, VBScript, php, and a bit of Java. I would say I have about 18 years of computing experience, the first problem I had to fix myself was DOS6.22 not locating my CDROM drive, the issue turned out to be an mscdex problem
I'm pretty good with *nix as well, though not as good as my Windows skills, I am pretty good with my way around command line on bsd and linux. Although I have a passion for PCs, I have also dabbled with macs, and can manage and repair them as well. Oh I completely forgot to mention my hardware background, but I don't really do too much with that nowadays, so might not be that relevant.
Over the last year I have started to play with Android devices, I have a Motorola Droid4 as my phone, and a Nexus 7 as my tablet.
My PC usage habits have changed since I got my first tablet, I use my PC for what I would consider, advanced tasks. Things like building ISOs, and bootable USB sticks, repairing/managing my android devices (things like moto rsdlite, or factory restore on my nexus 7), banking, deep research, and working from home (which includes a variety of management of system utilities using RDP to the office). I have been using Windows 8 for about a day and like to new interface of the desktop but find the "Windows 8 Style" (formerly known as metro) pretty disappointing since it's a 1 app at a time thing, NOT something I would want to do on my PC (I mean how often do you have only one thing up on the screen, that's fullscreen??). Is there a way I can use Windows 8 in desktop only mode? I don't know about you, but doing development in Metro doesn't seem very smart to me...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ah, good ol' MSCDEX . Anyway, I've been an IT guy for about the same amount of time as you (16, just shy of 17 years) and personally, I love Windows 8. My suggestion is this: use the desktop for desktop things, and use Metro for Metro things. Revolutionary advice, I know . To answer the question of "when would I use an app full screen?" the answer is simple: When you want to be *productive* in that app. Studies have shown that people working in clean, full-screen workspaces get more done because they have fewer distractions.
Metro, to be sure, is not a "one size fits all" solution. It does certain things exceptionally well, and others are best left to the desktop. And honestly, that's OK. I'd rather have an OS that can handle both worlds than have two distinct and separate OS's for different devices.
---------- Post added at 10:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:30 PM ----------
e.mote said:
Classic Shell now supports RTM, and has options to bypass Metro UI & disable hot corners
http://www.overclock.net/t/1295961/sf-classic-shell-is-officially-released-for-windows-8-rtm
For those who have Synaptic touchpads, you can use the latest Win7 drivers, although edge-swipe functions aren't implemented:
http://www.synaptics.com/resources/drivers/
Win8 beta Synaptics driver w/ edge-swipes below. It works, but is a little buggy. Left-edge swipe (task switch) gets activated at odd times.
http://drivers.softpedia.com/progDo...161811-for-Windows-8-x64-Download-172310.html
Frankly, for non-touchscreen PCs, you won't miss the Metro UI or the edge swipes. Will have to know your shortcuts, though.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank goodness there are options for people who can't bring themselves to move forward with the times .
>My suggestion is this: use the desktop for desktop things, and use Metro for Metro things.
That's the problem. Many desktop users would just want to do desktop things and ignore Metro altogether, but Metro is mandatory for apps navigation.
I understand MS' motivation for pushing Metro, although I don't have to like it: It wants to get Metro (and App Store) as many eyeballs as possible, to get people used to the notion of "buying apps" for desktops. It needs to do this to kick-start Metro apps, and thereby give WinRT a boost. The change is for MS' benefit more than the users. As you said yourself, Metro can't do desktop duties, and it only ends up annoying desktop users.
>To answer the question of "when would I use an app full screen?" the answer is simple: When you want to be *productive* in that app. Studies have shown
This is a bad blanket statement in that it assumes everybody works (or should work) the same way. People don't. It also ignores the reality that people are used to certain ways of getting things done, and resent being forced to relinquish those routines for purportedly "better" ones. That's a recipe for wholesale userbase loss.
BTW, a tip: Don't use the phrase "studies have shown." Any time you have to reach for "scientific surveys/studies/experts," it's already a losing argument.
I'm a proponent of Windows 8. I think it's a step in the right direction. But I recognize it's a love-hate relationship with Metro, and both sides have their justifications. It's a subjective thing, and appealing to authority (studies) isn't the answer. The only verdict that matters is from Win8 PC and tablet sales, and we'll know in Oct how Metro will fare.
I found something...
Interesting that I found it in the forbes.com website, I didn't even know they had technical articles!
http://www.forbes.com/sites/adriankingsleyhughes/2012/08/23/restore-the-start-menu-in-windows-8/
In the article it mentions something called Start8. This program is pretty much what I wanted.
http://www.stardock.com/products/start8/
I'll follow up after I've used Start8 for a little while longer.
I know a few people have made threads like this before, but those were all before Windows 8 was released in its final version. Now that Windows 8 has been out for a while, how do you think it compares to Debian? The gestures and apps are cool ideas, but I don't think they were implemented as well as they could have been on the OS when it came to non-touchscreen devices. Apps are a good idea, but I spend almost no time on the start screen apart from checking mail and breezing past it on my way to search for something.
Drivers have been a nightmare for some users, me included, as a few random automatic updates (now turned off on my PC) rendered my wifi unusable without a complete reinstallation of all the Toshiba drivers. I haven't had any problems with things such as mouse drivers, but I've heard of others who had to get them from another computer and install them via a flash drive.
Graphics are superb on Win8, much better in my opinion than Debian's, but when it comes down to it, they just aren't that big of a factor when choosing an operating system. Debian, on the other hand, lacks fancy graphics while it has a much more ("power user", I guess) friendly way of dealing with files and customization when installing packages. Windows does have options while installing programs, but they are limited to what the installer offers to let you do.
As far as ubiquity, Windows wins hands down. With a Windows system, you will almost never be stuck with a file format that nobody around you can open, and Microsoft Office is just as widespread on school and work computers as it is on home computers. Debian, meanwhile, comes with OpenOffice, or you can install OpenOffice's newer branch, LibreOffice. Both use the .odf format, which is readable in Microsoft Word, but some formatting options and graphics don't translate nicely into Word format. Fortunately, they also include the .doc and .docx formats, though they restrict you somewhat on what your document can have in it (same translation issues). Back to ubiquity, programs are nearly always easier to install on Windows, and plugins such as Flash and Java require much less experience and work on many more browsers when installing than on Debian.
For customization, I like Debian better because packages can install either programs or give you new system changes, such as new window managers and graphics options. In Windows, you either have to change group policy settings, or edit the registry, both time consuming, inefficient, and risky tasks (not so risky for group policy, but whatever). Programs such as Wine (actually, just wine, AFAIK) can safely add a different file system type into Debian, while you have to use the much less well known program Cygwin to have a Linux-esque environment on Windows.
I could go on and on about information that's readily available on google, but I need to know, do you like Debian or Windows better? I've been running Debian on Virtualbox for a while now, and I like it, but the whole thing about it not being as widespread and well-supported (yes, I know it has a support community behind it, but you can google literally just about any problem for Windows) is what's holding me back. I've done a dual-boot arrangement in the past, but that doesn't work because I allot half my hard drive space to both OS's, then end up using only one. So I want to have only one OS installed. I don't use Microsoft Office anyway (LibreOffice all the way! ), but getting used to using pretty much ALL open source alternatives to common Windows programs will take more than the month of sporadic testing on a VM that I've done with it.
Is it worth the switch? Or is Windows 8 too good to give up?
Hi guys. For anyone else interested in this, some of you may also listen to podcasts like Windows Weekly or read articles from top Windows writers like Mary Jo Foley of ZDnet, Paul Thurott etc. Last I heard them say that it's 50/50, Micro employees are saying there isn't definitely an 8.2 (remember at this point Blue was in full dev last year), they could either skip to Windows 9, particularly as a branding refresh a la Vista.
What do you think? Will they? Do you want them to?
I do. I really think desktop users got shafted and I can't believe how many third party modifications it takes for me to get comfortable with Win 8. Reading the 'making win 8' blog I was excited. From the preview I was shocked so much was unfinished and gambled, unlike the Win 7 preview. The Xbox 180 rollback (and the firing of the Windows, Xbox chiefs and investor kick-out of the CEO) to me highlights a recognition of failure from a business point.
Edit - I'm going to upgrade my statement and say the world's largest PC manufacturer dissing the start screen and adding a third party menu - Pokki - is a result of feedback from customers and that I find it hard to believe how Microsoft couldn't add a full menu back in 9 at least alongside a start screen.
http://blog.pokki.com/2013/08/lenovo-pcs-now-come-with-pokki/
i don't care what they call it, as long as it's something worth upgrading to. other than my tablets, i have no reason upgrade any other computer i own or use to win8. windows 7 works fine for now.
Nice opinion piece, i couldn't care less what they call it.
As long as they don't A, force us to use metro all of the time or B, put the old start menu back in again ill upgrade to it.
SharpnShiny said:
Hi guys. For anyone else interested in this, some of you may also listen to podcasts like Windows Weekly or read articles from top Windows writers like Mary Jo Foley of ZDnet, Paul Thurott etc. Last I heard them say that it's 50/50, Micro employees are saying there isn't definitely an 8.2 (remember at this point Blue was in full dev last year), they could either skip to Windows 9, particularly as a branding refresh a la Vista.
What do you think? Will they? Do you want them to?
I do. I really think desktop users got shafted and I can't believe how many third party modifications it takes for me to get comfortable with Win 8. Reading the 'making win 8' blog I was excited. From the preview I was shocked so much was unfinished and gambled, unlike the Win 7 preview. The Xbox 180 rollback (and the firing of the Windows, Xbox chiefs and investor kick-out of the CEO) to me highlights a recognition of failure from a business point.
Edit - I'm going to upgrade my statement and say the world's largest PC manufacturer dissing the start screen and adding a third party menu - Pokki - is a result of feedback from customers and that I find it hard to believe how Microsoft couldn't add a full menu back in 9 at least alongside a start screen.
http://blog.pokki.com/2013/08/lenovo-pcs-now-come-with-pokki/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think - well, actually hope (so there's personal bias) - that the Windows team will come to its senses. A hybrid OS that runs on desktop/mobile and unifying look and feel was a good idea on paper. The problem was in trying to nudge desktop users to use Metro without touch capability. And that's where they are going to lose a HUGE segment of business.
Business wise most companies think 8 is another Vista and when XP reaches EOS they'll go to 7 and hope for the best with 9 - and it's coming. Historically Windows gets no more than 2 major updates in a life cycle and with 7 only getting one (so far) it's fair to suspect that Blue (8.1) may be it. Try to get more user approval on it and hope for the best with a new version. They could clean up 8, add a true "desktop/touch/hybrid" look/feel and slap a Windows 9 label on it... but here's hoping they'll spend the next 12-14 months really deciding what they want to do forward.
I really don't see the fuss over lack of a start button. What do people seriously use it for? Launching applications, shutting down the PC and accessing control panel (and related).
Launching apps can be done from desktop icons, modern ui tiles or simply go to modern ui and if the software didnt have a piece of crap installer when you start to type its name (dont even have to click a box or anything) it will list it. <- because that was so hard.
Shutting down PC, control-alt-delete or alt-f4 on the desktop or windows key + I to open the settings charm where you can click power > shutdown or here is a revolotionary idea for those with laptops or desktops within reach: press the power button and windows will prompt for shut down.
Control panel. Either try the launching apps thing above. Alternately, move the mouse to the bottom left corner so the little "start" thing appears, right click it, its right there.
I for one find windows 8 *easier* with keyboard and mouse than 7 was. I don't have a problem using modern ui apps with keyboard and mouse either. I have a word for those people who cannot work out how an app works on keyboard and mouse, its 6 letters long, starts with an R and has political incorrectness written all over it.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
I really don't see the fuss over lack of a start button. What do people seriously use it for? Launching applications, shutting down the PC and accessing control panel (and related).
Launching apps can be done from desktop icons, modern ui tiles or simply go to modern ui and if the software didnt have a piece of crap installer when you start to type its name (dont even have to click a box or anything) it will list it. <- because that was so hard.
Shutting down PC, control-alt-delete or alt-f4 on the desktop or windows key + I to open the settings charm where you can click power > shutdown or here is a revolotionary idea for those with laptops or desktops within reach: press the power button and windows will prompt for shut down.
Control panel. Either try the launching apps thing above. Alternately, move the mouse to the bottom left corner so the little "start" thing appears, right click it, its right there.
I for one find windows 8 *easier* with keyboard and mouse than 7 was. I don't have a problem using modern ui apps with keyboard and mouse either. I have a word for those people who cannot work out how an app works on keyboard and mouse, its 6 letters long, starts with an R and has political incorrectness written all over it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well said. I'm a believe of progress, I find win 8 much more efficient as you already mentioned, unfortunately the great anti MS movement has done well in telling people what they should and should not like. Try learn and love... Simple
Sent from my Rooted Kobo Arc
SixSixSevenSeven said:
I really don't see the fuss over lack of a start button. What do people seriously use it for? Launching applications, shutting down the PC and accessing control panel (and related).
Launching apps can be done from desktop icons, modern ui tiles or simply go to modern ui and if the software didnt have a piece of crap installer when you start to type its name (dont even have to click a box or anything) it will list it. <- because that was so hard.
Shutting down PC, control-alt-delete or alt-f4 on the desktop or windows key + I to open the settings charm where you can click power > shutdown or here is a revolotionary idea for those with laptops or desktops within reach: press the power button and windows will prompt for shut down.
Control panel. Either try the launching apps thing above. Alternately, move the mouse to the bottom left corner so the little "start" thing appears, right click it, its right there.
I for one find windows 8 *easier* with keyboard and mouse than 7 was. I don't have a problem using modern ui apps with keyboard and mouse either. I have a word for those people who cannot work out how an app works on keyboard and mouse, its 6 letters long, starts with an R and has political incorrectness written all over it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To call me or anyone else that 6 letter word is clairvoyant of your personality. 18 years of using a start button doesn't go away quickly. Asking paradigms to change that fast is dang near impossible for most businesses. There should be at least a slight understanding of that.
In all fairness most of the big and powerful things you needed can be found in 8.1 preview by right clicking the Windows icon on the bottom right and does far more than I'll need. And with all due respect to your opinion, I have about 30+ different applications on my work PC that I use on a constant basis. Top 5 are in the toolbar (also having a challenge duplicating this in 8.1 preview - maybe someone can shed some light for me?) to avoid hitting that button. Rest of them are easily found because I set up my Start Menu to be as efficient as I need it to be. I'm trying to find a way to match that without having to go into Metro because honestly that takes more time. And please don't patronize me about going back to icons on the desktop - that's regressive to 3.1 and NOT progressive. Your power suggestions have also been around since at least XP so no new news there. I didn't know about being able to search for your apps within Metro and I will give that a shot and see if I reconsider. Moving the scroll bar on the bottom of metro to scroll to apps is VERY different than the touch response.
Notice I didn't trash the Metro UI concept, I think it's dead on for touch devices. I just think they can and should improve on the non-touch side where honestly most folks (and companies) do not need/want it... yet. Just like not every company embraces 64 bit OSes yet because they have yet to exceed the 4GB limitation. Again, just sharing my personal thoughts and those that I've heard at corporate levels so far. Not all of us are fortunate to be able to use the same OS at home and work. Many of us will always be behind the times in technology at the office - even if we work in IT.
Windows 9 or 99 - not a whole lot of difference
A side comment to the overarching theme of this thread: Windows 8.2 vs Windows 9 is purely a naming decision that has very little to do with what the actual product will look like. Certainly it has zero bearing on what features will go in.
It's almost certain that at the same time during Windows 8.1 development, the decision hadn't yet been made as to whether call the OS Windows 9, Windows 8.1 or what have you (hence the codename "Windows Blue").
Another good illustration of how naming doesn't mean a whole lot in Microsoft is the evolution from WinNT 6.0 to 6.1. On the client side the move was Vista -> 7 ("major" update), on the server line it was Server 2008 -> Server 2008 R2 ("small" update). But the magnitude of changes was of course very similar between both product lines.
Bottom line: don't get hung up on the naming aspect--it's like reading tea leaves. Look to the core of the product.
Before all the turmoil--reorg, lameduck CEO, Nokia acquisition--I was pretty confident of seeing Win9, as 8.1 was basically a polished 8, and 8 wasn't going anywhere. An 8.2 would only prolong the ignominy.
To have Win9, MS has to have an idea of how to substantively improve on Win8 (that users will buy into.) All present indicators are that that direction doesn't exist. The reorg will paralyze any new initiative, as will Ballmer's lameduck status. And digesting Nokia on top of those...well, turmoil would be putting it kindly.
There should be a new CEO next year (probably Elop, yuck). Lumias will be rebadged, and merged into the Surface effort. But integration and reorg for a company of MS' size will take 2-3 years at least. That almost certainly means we'll see another incremental Win release.
I expect 8.1's reception will be marginally better than 8, mainly because of XP's EOL and replacement purchases for those skipping over 8. The hardware (Haswell, Bay Trail) is better and will also help. But PC's glory days are over, more so because of MS' abandonment and ineptitude than from anything else. Not only on the software side, but hardware as well. OEMs are jumping off the listing ship, even faster now that MS is set to be a full-on competitor.
So how to fix Win 8.x within a year, with no new direction, and a paralyzed company? More TLC to its fast-shrinking cash cow, the desktop, would be a start. As before, I'd like to see a "Windows Classic" that again emphasize on desktop, perhaps with Metro as an optional component. I think a 1-yr allotment for this is doable, even given the dire circumstances. Metro, or Win Mobile (refurb'ed), can be an "essential" add-on, or a separate standalone. The step would be a good holding action.
This would require a revisit of MS' "one-size-fits-all" UI tenet, which isn't succeeding anyway. Metro on its own merits is nothing special, hence its force-feeding to Win users. But neither lame-duck Ballmer nor (likely) Elop has the vision to make a fundamental change. Elop did not turn Nokia around.
We'll see what comes out of the blender next year. For this year, I'll be upgrading to 8.1 and using it strictly as a desktop OS, ie an updated Win7. Metro will be excised, and all my tablet/phone needs will be (have been) met by Android. From what I see of the upcoming Win tabs, they all suck. High prices compared to Android, desktop apps that don't run well on tabs, and paltry selection of mobile apps (that are locked to MS' app store).
Anybody running 8.1 RTM (not RT) yet?
>unfortunately the great anti MS movement has done well in telling people what they should and should not like
Just have to comment on this. Get off the blame game shtick. MS' travails are its own doing, not from any "hater conspiracy" theory. Stop contributing to the childish squabbles.
>I didn't trash the Metro UI concept, I think it's dead on for touch devices.
I can't agree. Metro is still immature, as is MS' notion of mobile devices. Simple case-in-point: 8 does not support portrait use, most apps are landscapes only. 8.1's purported support doesn't compensate for the fact that current and most upcoming tablets will be 16:9. Try using one in portrait and see the awkwardness.
Metro has many other deficits, which I've pointed out before. Landscape orientation (and scrolling) is bad for long lists, among other things, which are best done vertically. Ever wondered why there still isn't a good file manager for Metro? Not to say that Android and iOS are perfect. Both have their foibles. But they're already far ahead in share and 3rd-party support.
>Windows 8.2 vs Windows 9 is purely a naming decision that has very little to do with what the actual product will look like.
What we're talking about isn't the numbering per se, but whether there'll be a substantive change for the next Win rev. The 8.2 vs 9 is a shorthand.
As far as substantive changes go, I can't predict the future, but I can say this. A few bugs can make a program completely unusable, but it doesn't mean that the program is necessarily total crap in its entirety.
Windows 8 isn't all bad. It has a few features which some users really don't like, but most of the new features aren't bad. They're good features solidly engineered. So it's very possible that an incremental release focusing on making these few problematic areas right could be a major hit.
A common perception is that Windows 8 is somehow so abhorrent that only a total rollback or a total redesign can possibly save the ship. I don't think it's an accurate assessment.
Its not a Blame game, its an observation from dealing with the public, in many cases for no justifiable reason or argument without substance a large portion of the geeky public/profession (note I am one as well) seem hell bent on slagging off anything MS.
It has its faults just as any organization does but some much of the tripe an miss information I have to wade through just to get to the root cause of the problem is staggering!! So no, its not about trying to partake in a childish game, its about trying to stop people being misled by so called experts and to make informed decisions based on fact
Sent from my Rooted Kobo Arc
>A few bugs can make a program completely unusable, but it doesn't mean that the program is necessarily total crap in its entirety.
Win8's issue isn't about bugs, but more fundamental: its design and structure, which were radically changed to fit the one-size-fits-all scheme. Users have not warmed to this direction, and at this point I can't see any change to Metro that can make touch use viable for desktops. While some here may differ on the finer points (or affiliation), it's safe to say that none here has yet to use Metro exclusively as a desktop replacement. It's almost a year since release. There are no more excuses.
>Windows 8 isn't all bad. It has a few features which some users really don't like, but most of the new features aren't bad. They're good features solidly engineered.
What's "bad" or "good" is an opinion. What's not opinion is Win8--ergo, Metro--adoption rate. It's abysmal. One may be an optimist and hope for salvation in 8.1 (or perhaps 8.2). MS certainly doesn't think 8.x will do so great, else it wouldn't have opted for the reorg, Ballmer wouldn't have been kicked out, and Nokia buy wouldn't be a necessity.
Put another way, it's not any one person's opinion that matters, but the collective opinions of Windows users. They've spoken, and I don't see any miracle on the horizon to change their tune.
People need to get the following in their head:
1) Desktop isn't going anywhere, stop dramatizing over the desktop vs metro bullcrap
2) Windows 8 does not force you to use metro, just the start screen, which is miles better than the old start menu.
3) Windows 8 metro works perfectly fine with keyboard and mouse. The R word is pretty much suitable for anyone who can't make the jump from start button to start screen. If you are that R, then you need to quit using a computer, that stuff aint for you.
4)Neither metro, nor the desktop will disappear in any subsequent versions of windows. Stop fearing/hoping.
5) it will probably take around 2 years until the next version of windows (9, momo, kiki whatever) comes along. Windows 8.1 is more like a service pack for windows 8.
garwynn said:
To call me or anyone else that 6 letter word is clairvoyant of your personality. 18 years of using a start button doesn't go away quickly. Asking paradigms to change that fast is dang near impossible for most businesses. There should be at least a slight understanding of that.
In all fairness most of the big and powerful things you needed can be found in 8.1 preview by right clicking the Windows icon on the bottom right and does far more than I'll need. And with all due respect to your opinion, I have about 30+ different applications on my work PC that I use on a constant basis. Top 5 are in the toolbar (also having a challenge duplicating this in 8.1 preview - maybe someone can shed some light for me?) to avoid hitting that button. Rest of them are easily found because I set up my Start Menu to be as efficient as I need it to be. I'm trying to find a way to match that without having to go into Metro because honestly that takes more time. And please don't patronize me about going back to icons on the desktop - that's regressive to 3.1 and NOT progressive. Your power suggestions have also been around since at least XP so no new news there. I didn't know about being able to search for your apps within Metro and I will give that a shot and see if I reconsider. Moving the scroll bar on the bottom of metro to scroll to apps is VERY different than the touch response.
Notice I didn't trash the Metro UI concept, I think it's dead on for touch devices. I just think they can and should improve on the non-touch side where honestly most folks (and companies) do not need/want it... yet. Just like not every company embraces 64 bit OSes yet because they have yet to exceed the 4GB limitation. Again, just sharing my personal thoughts and those that I've heard at corporate levels so far. Not all of us are fortunate to be able to use the same OS at home and work. Many of us will always be behind the times in technology at the office - even if we work in IT.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You don't know me nor my personality. I think my choice of word is justified, nor did I call you it. I have not used the start button for 18 years, only about 10, but 10 years of start button usage I was able to throw away like an empty chocolate bar wrapper
I am running 8.0 not 8.1. Toolbar is working fine here. I also prefer a clean desktop, always have done, I do have My Computer, recycle bin and my account folder otherwise its empty.
You dont have to move the bar along the bottom of the start bar. On a multitouch trackpad (as on most windows 8 laptops and a few 7 laptops too, or a USB one) a 2 finger horizontal swipe, alternately it will respond to the scroll wheel on your mouse (or the scroll region on non multitouch trackpads or a 2 finger vertical swipe) and a 3rd option is to simply move your mouse against the edge and as you try to move the mouse further it scrolls in that direction. This works in apps too (although a few apps don't respond to moving the mouse against the edge in my experience, most do though).
The search function has actually changed between 8.0 and 8.1. In 8.0 start typing at metro it starts searching your PC by default but segregates results in apps, settings and files. Most desktop applications with a proper installer get listed under apps, a few things like putty or minecraft which dont have proper installers get lumped into files. In 8.1 it goes back to the old windows 7 style search without segregating the results. Both still have individual searches for store, bing etc (actually, here on 8.0 google chrome is listed as a searchable app too which is kinda neat, never noticed that until now). I find it incredibly quick to find things this way, just hit the windows key and type "beam" and its already listed Start BeamNG.Drive and Uninstall BeamNG.Drive as launchable applications, if I was searching for minecraft (pinned to start) I would need an extra click unfortunately but on 8.1 I wouldn't.
My only major metro complaints are lack of apps, lack of serial port access in the WinRT API (whether that be hardware, USB or bluetooth, not that windows distinguishes), blocking of localhost TCP or UDP connections (or any other network connection) and that control panel and file browsing should also be available in metro if metro is to be a viable system. On this machine yeah, perhaps I would rather use control panel in desktop mode, but it should be available on metro too. Lack of apps isn't something microsoft can do much about, that is entirely down to 3rd parties. I went to make an app but sadly microsoft say no serial ports and my application required it, I had a workaround which was to make the app communicate with a desktop application over a network and have the desktop application use a serial port, but thats both a) awkward and b) limiting as localhost is no longer possible so the desktop app would need to run on a second device which kinda defeats the point. I think 8.1 adds bluetooth RfComm support, it is possible to build up bluetooth SPP support in user code atop RfComm so at least 8.1 would allow bluetooth serial to an extent.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
I went to make an app but sadly microsoft say no serial ports and my application required it, I had a workaround which was to make the app communicate with a desktop application over a network and have the desktop application use a serial port, but thats both a) awkward and b) limiting as localhost is no longer possible so the desktop app would need to run on a second device which kinda defeats the point.
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Click to collapse
Have you tried marshaling your data through the file system? Apps could communicate through metro app's local storage. It's hacky and it may require fiddling with permissions, but it could work depending on your latency requirements.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
You don't know me nor my personality. I think my choice of word is justified, nor did I call you it. I have not used the start button for 18 years, only about 10, but 10 years of start button usage I was able to throw away like an empty chocolate bar wrapper.
You dont have to move the bar along the bottom of the start bar. On a multitouch trackpad (as on most windows 8 laptops and a few 7 laptops too, or a USB one) a 2 finger horizontal swipe, alternately it will respond to the scroll wheel on your mouse (or the scroll region on non multitouch trackpads or a 2 finger vertical swipe) and a 3rd option is to simply move your mouse against the edge and as you try to move the mouse further it scrolls in that direction. This works in apps too (although a few apps don't respond to moving the mouse against the edge in my experience, most do though).
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Click to collapse
Didn't say you meant it to me, just that there are a lot of people who would disagree with your thoughts. Please keep in mind - from a TS perspective we are outliers. From a corporate standpoint they have to look at the lowest common denominator - the users who muddle through using a computer just to get the everyday things done. They don't have a choice but to do that or not work. Not everyone even in Gen Y or the Millennials are tech savvy. (Women are sadly still behind the curve, something I'm going to make sure my kids avoid. Knowledge is power IMO.)
Your second paragraph is mainly targeting, again, a different segment than who I'm talking about. My concern is with the users that have box, wired KB/mouse and one screen and need it as simple as possible to do their job. These folks - some of which I am related to - are quite happy with their 2009 Core 2 Quad PC because it plays video and lets them browse the internet. Even if I build them another PC - and I did on the cheap recently - they have yet to touch it over the old system because they're comfortable with it. Ironic because you solve all their complaints and they still stick with what they know.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
I went to make an app but sadly microsoft say no serial ports and my application required it, I had a workaround which was to make the app communicate with a desktop application over a network and have the desktop application use a serial port, but thats both a) awkward and b) limiting as localhost is no longer possible so the desktop app would need to run on a second device which kinda defeats the point. I think 8.1 adds bluetooth RfComm support, it is possible to build up bluetooth SPP support in user code atop RfComm so at least 8.1 would allow bluetooth serial to an extent.
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Click to collapse
What were you trying to use via serial? USB storage access? If so I think they're trying to pigeonhole it to the sever (SkyDrive) as that seems to be the way that it goes. All the reason why I keep very few apps with data on my Note 2 - and those that I do keep data locally.
daniel-s said:
Have you tried marshaling your data through the file system? Apps could communicate through metro app's local storage. It's hacky and it may require fiddling with permissions, but it could work depending on your latency requirements.
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Click to collapse
Hacky indeed, but then so was my first thought. Latency is an issue, but file systems might *just* do it actually. Would have to think about that a bit more.
garwynn said:
What were you trying to use via serial? USB storage access? If so I think they're trying to pigeonhole it to the sever (SkyDrive) as that seems to be the way that it goes. All the reason why I keep very few apps with data on my Note 2 - and those that I do keep data locally.
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I've not heard of USB storage being done through an old fashioned serial/COM port which is what I wanted to use. Some people do still use their old RS232 ports or similar. In my case, I was initially aiming to have a serial terminal which could be attached to a raspberry pi, I was also planning a remote control type app aim at robots powered by arduinos and other microcontrollers. Communication from PC to microcontroller is almost always serial, even the arduino boards which supposedly have a USB port on them then have a USB>Serial adaptor before communication with a microcontroller (FTDI on the nano, an ATMega8U on the uno which is then programmed to bit-bang USB before comms with the ATMega328 powering the uno itself and a few others on 3rd party boards such as the CP2100 series IC's, a few boards don't have USB ports at all and require an external serial adaptor).
Linux can commonly be setup to display the shell over a serial port, the raspberry pi does this by default, by addition of a serial cable between the pi GPIO and another PC (with appropriate adaptors for the 3.3v TTL on the pi and whatever is on the host PC) you can run software such as PuTTY as an alternative to SSH. This is commonly done on servers connected to the internet which may have SSH disabled for security reasons as an attacker would be required to have physical access to the machines.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Hacky indeed, but then so was my first thought. Latency is an issue, but file systems might *just* do it actually. Would have to think about that a bit more.
I've not heard of USB storage being done through an old fashioned serial/COM port which is what I wanted to use. Some people do still use their old RS232 ports or similar. In my case, I was initially aiming to have a serial terminal which could be attached to a raspberry pi, I was also planning a remote control type app aim at robots powered by arduinos and other microcontrollers. Communication from PC to microcontroller is almost always serial, even the arduino boards which supposedly have a USB port on them then have a USB>Serial adaptor before communication with a microcontroller (FTDI on the nano, an ATMega8U on the uno which is then programmed to bit-bang USB before comms with the ATMega328 powering the uno itself and a few others on 3rd party boards such as the CP2100 series IC's, a few boards don't have USB ports at all and require an external serial adaptor).
Linux can commonly be setup to display the shell over a serial port, the raspberry pi does this by default, by addition of a serial cable between the pi GPIO and another PC (with appropriate adaptors for the 3.3v TTL on the pi and whatever is on the host PC) you can run software such as PuTTY as an alternative to SSH. This is commonly done on servers connected to the internet which may have SSH disabled for security reasons as an attacker would be required to have physical access to the machines.
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Old AS/400 systems used a serial connection to get to the system controller and the fix was to use the USB to serial dongle. Made for a pain in the butt because very few devices keep a 9 pin serial port on them anymore. (Drivers were a pain to find though). Probably the only way you'll be able to pull that off going further - it seems very (VERY) few boards have the 9 pin serial anymore, even on docking stations.
garwynn said:
Old AS/400 systems used a serial connection to get to the system controller and the fix was to use the USB to serial dongle. Made for a pain in the butt because very few devices keep a 9 pin serial port on them anymore. (Drivers were a pain to find though). Probably the only way you'll be able to pull that off going further - it seems very (VERY) few boards have the 9 pin serial anymore, even on docking stations.
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Oh I have no problem using a serial port from windows 8 desktop. Microsoft just don't allow its usage from a windows 8 app.
My desktop PC which isnt even 2 years old does actually have both a full RS232 port and parallel port. I also have an FTDI cable (USB > 3.3v TTL serial) which works fine with my laptop, desktop and the pi itself actually (full FTDI drivers under raspbian and windows 8). Both of my arduinos are arduino nano's so also use an FTDI chip (using the same drivers as each other and the cable I have). One of my other microcontrollers is a bit of a pain but you can get it working with windows 8 too, have to disable driver enforcement before you can install them. Regardless, all 3 microcontrollers and on my desktop its native port are listed in device manager as usable COM ports, all of them work fine too.
One place you will still regularly find a DB9-RS232 port is scientific hardware. Many sensors/probes/data collection devices for use with a PC communicate via serial. Older devices (and a few new ones) from a full RS232 connector, some now use 3.3v or 5v instead and a few are advertised as being USB but in reality have USB>serial adaptors of some sort contained within.
Many android devices have a serial port available (usually 3.3v) via the headphone jack (often just sticking a resistor between mic and ground to trigger left and right audio function changes) or USB port (similar technique as the headphones) or more rarely the microSD
If anyone is interested in the podcast I mentioned, Windows Weekly, the URL is: http://leoville.tv/podcasts/ww.xml
In the lastest episode, Mary Jo Foley of here: http://www.zdnet.com/topic-windows/
tends to tell what's going on inside Microsoft. If you listened to back episodes she was talking about Blue right after 8 was released, she spills details really early and they do come true.
The other major host is Paul Thurott on the podcast, who writes here: http://www.winbeta.org/
The last thing they said, just as e.mote calculated, was that the company is in disaray and will slow down significantly since the Nokia acquisition and that it could have been an 8.2 but for a brand refresh they could skip to 9. 9 in that case would be a mixture of returning some of the key 7 features and polishing 8. I'll post here if there's any more, same if you guys know anything! I'm interested to see how this develops.
I remember going to the Win 7 launch at the time. One of the first things the Micro guy said on stage was that 7 was 'Vista fixed'. I couldn't believe he said that on stage. So instead of a fixer service pack they jumped to 7 and it was partially a brand refresh. Who knows now?