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I'm not just ranting or trying to make a point, I'm legitimately interested in Google's strategy.
Obviously, google cant argue with the fact that htc has widgets that blow googles widgets out of the water. Google cant say theyve worked hard on their widgets and they cant honestly suggest that they are satisfied with them.
Are there any articles or official satements by google/android regarding their refusal to develop Widgets that are more attractive and elaborate? I'm google faithful and wont switch on principle but I can't imagine more than 10% of those people who've tried HTC's subsequently preferring Googles. Its a very strange angle that google has taken.....or maybe its not I'd like to know their view/opinion...does anyone know it? thanks
Incidentally, its not that Google's Widgets are horrible its just that they could be infinitely better at what I would assume to be relatively little effort... off the top of my head if the power widget was broken into single widgets and more options were included that would great and presumably pretty damn simple, and google emphasizes the customizable desktop which I'm all for yet they neglect wiidgets which could really be a draw for potential customers. thank you
Have to agree with you there. They need to add more stock/easy ways to change the look. It would go a long way in selling more phones. People simply think nicer looking things are "cooler" devices. Some of the metamorph's prove the changes aren't exactly difficult. I'm sure they could code a minimal program that had the ability to change the status bar to black, white, gray... A few nice widgets.. Small changes that the XDA community already offers the rooted phones.
If you watch Googles initial press release for the Android launch youll get your answer, they made Android for developers. Instead of going Apples route where you have to use their stuff and if they have something similar no one else can, they went the other way. They said they would provide the function necessary for a smart phone and leave the rest to the developers and provided the open source operating system and api's necassary for that to happen. And honestly id say its worked. I dont use their messenger, I use Handcent. I dont use their browser, I use Dolphin Browser. I dont use their clock I use Weather Widget donate or Beautiful Widgets. I often see reviews on apps that say, "this should have been included" blah blah but thats not what Androids all about, its about the devs. I think Android blows everyone away in that category, we may not have the amount of apps that other phones have but we do have more options for the things we use everyday and thats something I can appreciate, its only going to get better as Android grows and its definitely getting there. I'd rather have open development any day than, "Here, this is what you need."
i do agree with you, but those not wanting to void warranty are alittle more limited, i very much want to root but don't want to void warranty to find a month from now something is wrong and theres still no bootloader relock option. i think theres a lot more customization for rooted vs nonrooted and that's where people feel limited and have the "this should have been added" attitude
You have to keep in mind, Google is just providing a basic operating system. They leave it up the the developers to customize it. You can kinda compair it to what microsoft does, loosly. You can build your own computer, buy windows and customise it to your liking. Or you can buy one from Dell that comes pre-loaded with windows and various other applications. Google just really provides the base level OS.
@psylink you dont need root for most widgets. With exception to like the overclock widget and such, or if you are trying to run a widget that was part of a different rom.
JoshHart said:
If you watch Googles initial press release for the Android launch youll get your answer, they made Android for developers. Instead of going Apples route where you have to use their stuff and if they have something similar no one else can, they went the other way. They said they would provide the function necessary for a smart phone and leave the rest to the developers and provided the open source operating system and api's necassary for that to happen. And honestly id say its worked. I dont use their messenger, I use Handcent. I dont use their browser, I use Dolphin Browser. I dont use their clock I use Weather Widget donate or Beautiful Widgets. I often see reviews on apps that say, "this should have been included" blah blah but thats not what Androids all about, its about the devs. I think Android blows everyone away in that category, we may not have the amount of apps that other phones have but we do have more options for the things we use everyday and thats something I can appreciate, its only going to get better as Android grows and its definitely getting there. I'd rather have open development any day than, "Here, this is what you need."
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That's a fantastic stance to take when you're providing just an OS.
However, when you release a branded phone under your own name, you need to provide substantial content to that brand.
As it stands the only thing setting the nexus apart from other phones is hardware. In a few months when numerous phones have the same hardware whats putting the nexus ahead of the pact? They same way motorola has motoblur, htc has sense, etc., Google needs their own "style" for their own handsets.
There are a few home screen redesigns on the market that (AFAIK since I've never tried any of them) don't require rooting and significantly change the "look" of the standard phone. Most of them are heavily theme-able as well. On the Behold II forums a lot of people were touting these apps as ways to get rid of the Touchwiz interface that they didn't like (Samsung pouts).
Also, Google created this OS as a platform both for developers to fill with apps, but also for manufacturers to customize to differentiate themselves. If they didn't leave room for manufacturers to customize then the platform would be far less attractive to them and they'd have more adoption problems. If they create too strong of a core UI then they might either be in the position of competing against the manufacturers on that "differentiation" ground, or they might remove any need/desire to customize and the manufacturers would have to consider producing another "me too" phone which they may not like as much, or Google might spend a lot of time on work that will be discarded by the manufacturers during their differentiation. Most of these manufacturers are members of the "alliance" that collaborated on the platform so I'm sure these points were hashed out during that planning phase.
If they don't promote adoption then they lose the win for developers in having a widely adopted platform. Note that even though HTC heavily customizes with Sense and Motorola heavily customizes with Blur and Samsung with Touchwiz, a developer can still write an app that runs on all of those and so everyone is happy.
muncheese said:
That's a fantastic stance to take when you're providing just an OS.
However, when you release a branded phone under your own name, you need to provide substantial content to that brand.
As it stands the only thing setting the nexus apart from other phones is hardware. In a few months when numerous phones have the same hardware whats putting the nexus ahead of the pact? They same way motorola has motoblur, htc has sense, etc., Google needs their own "style" for their own handsets.
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True, they could do that, but I don't think they are putting the Nexus One out so much to enter the brand market heavily as they are to put out the canonical reference version of the phone, at least initially. In my mind, the N1 was never to compete with the manufacturers head to head, it was more to have a phone out there that was as open and pluggable as their vision has always been so that if all the manufacturers/carriers decide they are going to take the base OS, lock it down, make people buy ringtones through a carrier market and cripple the browsing so you can't download anything - customers would have an alternative open solution to turn to. In the past there have been classic examples of a given model/brand of phone available from some carriers where you could download any customization file to it that you wanted and then on other carriers it was crippled and locked you in. In those cases you had to buy the crippled versions because there was no independently available canonical "open" version. The N1 fights that tendency not by force or contract, but by simply being. It doesn't have to be the coolest, hippest incarnation, it just has to be pretty and usable and so open that everyone will start to get a distaste for anything closed.
What we are seeing so far with Android isn't so much of this "carrier locking" as it is "carriers customizing so heavily that they threaten the upgrade paths for their customers". I don't think they are doing it intentionally, they just aren't familiar with working on a platform that evolves so quickly. Without the N1 being a bare bones example of the platform they would only be competing with other manufacturers that are similarly locked in by their own lack of upgrade foresight and so the drive to release upgrades wouldn't be so compelling. But, if there are alternatives available that will be keeping up on a much more aggressive pace, like the N1, then they are more likely to fix their differentiating software so that it can move to newer OS versions in a more timely manner. Imagine in a year or two when we can all own Blur or Sense phones and get our OS updates within a month or two of a new OS release.
It's the "reference fully open Android example" and, as such, is less in need of customization as it is to simply stand as an option to keep the others honest. It's meant to be as "close to the raw OS source" as it can be.
muncheese said:
That's a fantastic stance to take when you're providing just an OS.
However, when you release a branded phone under your own name, you need to provide substantial content to that brand.
As it stands the only thing setting the nexus apart from other phones is hardware. In a few months when numerous phones have the same hardware whats putting the nexus ahead of the pact? They same way motorola has motoblur, htc has sense, etc., Google needs their own "style" for their own handsets.
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When have widgets been the only way to add content to the phone? I mean there are plenty of replacement widgets already on the market if you dont like the stock ones. Me I would rather they provide more features then pretty widgets. They have provided plenty of content for the phone. Live wallpapers, google goggles, factory bootloader unlock, sim unlocked, mutible exchange account management, updated gallery, multi touch maps, ect
MonkySlap said:
When have widgets been the only way to add content to the phone? I mean there are plenty of replacement widgets already on the market if you dont like the stock ones. Me I would rather they provide more features then pretty widgets. They have provided plenty of content for the phone. Live wallpapers, google goggles, factory bootloader unlock, sim unlocked, mutible exchange account management, updated gallery, multi touch maps, ect
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Those are all implementations for the OS, something that would happen regardless of a "Google's phone", and things that get rolled out to other devices.
They have to walk a fine line because they are Google, and having exclusivity for one thing almost goes against their entire paradigm.
Maybe the "advantage" is getting stuff first? If so, that's kinda meh.
muncheese said:
Those are all implementations for the OS, something that would happen regardless of a "Google's phone", and things that get rolled out to other devices.
They have to walk a fine line because they are Google, and having exclusivity for one thing almost goes against their entire paradigm.
Maybe the "advantage" is getting stuff first? If so, that's kinda meh.
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but its still content non the less, correct? Doesnt need to be exclusive to be considered content. Me personally I really didnt buy it for stock os or content. I bought mine to tweak, mod, and play with, and it is more then fulfiling that for me . Love the desire rom running so smooth so early in the port.
muncheese said:
Those are all implementations for the OS, something that would happen regardless of a "Google's phone", and things that get rolled out to other devices.
They have to walk a fine line because they are Google, and having exclusivity for one thing almost goes against their entire paradigm.
Maybe the "advantage" is getting stuff first? If so, that's kinda meh.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Or maybe their philosophy is that any and all "enhancements" should be optional add-ons available to all phones of the breed. As it stands you can only get Sense or Blur if you buy a phone from those manufacturers (or if you root and someone scavenges a semi-compatible ROM from one of them for you). I don't think they want to be in the game of "you have to get your phone from us to get XYZ" and so they provide a reasonably attractive basic package, they set it up so that others can come in and provide openly available enhancements (see the various replacement "home screens" on the market for example) and then the customer gets the benefit of both choice and of an open environment.
I think they view branding as more of an obstacle than as a sales/owner satisfaction tactic.
JoshHart said:
If you watch Googles initial press release for the Android launch youll get your answer, they made Android for developers. Instead of going Apples route where you have to use their stuff and if they have something similar no one else can, they went the other way. They said they would provide the function necessary for a smart phone and leave the rest to the developers and provided the open source operating system and api's necassary for that to happen. And honestly id say its worked. I dont use their messenger, I use Handcent. I dont use their browser, I use Dolphin Browser. I dont use their clock I use Weather Widget donate or Beautiful Widgets. I often see reviews on apps that say, "this should have been included" blah blah but thats not what Androids all about, its about the devs. I think Android blows everyone away in that category, we may not have the amount of apps that other phones have but we do have more options for the things we use everyday and thats something I can appreciate, its only going to get better as Android grows and its definitely getting there. I'd rather have open development any day than, "Here, this is what you need."
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
All good points. Now that I think about it I bought this phone for stock google stuff, which in hindsight may have been a mistake. With the g1 and mytouch 3g the google software was often the closest thing to stable available and I've grown to trust mainly them and reputable companies. Its kind of embarrassing to look thru the market and have to sift through countless apps that serve virtually no purpose, have terrible icons, and aren't even close to stable, but perhaps this is a product of androids relative immaturity, though I'm unfamiliar with winmo, palm, and apple. I just haven't been impressed with many third party apps or Widgets, save a select few very impressive ones. 90% of the apps look and feel very amateur. I stick to apps and Widgets produced by real companies because those have the best chance of being usuable. That was quite a gamble by google to go largely hands off and let all software be driven by development. Xda has spotlighted many excellent devs as far as rooting goes but for the average user the options are unimpressive. Maybe google will give in and start developing more usuable/stable/useful apps/widgets
I think that there are two schools of thought on this, yet we are all agreeing on the same concept.
While Google did create Android to be a stock type OS that they could distribute to multiple handset makers (in order to increase their ability to produce smartphones with only minor increases in developmental costs aside from those related to hardware - ultimately getting more people using the mobile web resulting in more ad revenue -whew! ), they also have in a sense slightly abandoned those of us who took the direct to consumers path. This is why they didn't put much into the release of the phone (look up the launch stats - or lack of accessories). While they don't have the responsibility to create widgets, programs, animations, etc. for us (the D2C crowd). I believe that they should have worked out a deal with HTC where we are allowed to unlock the bootloader and tinker/mod/play with/customize, etc as much as we want to without penalty or breaking the warranty. We don't have the funding to purchase a few hundred phones in case we brick them testing out various configs., nor do most of us have the expertise to repair the device if it gets bricked. The only other possibility is that a contract clause is created whereby we are allowed to download ROMs from Android manufacturers (or at least just HTC) and put them on our phones - doesn't that give us the MOST number of options to customize our phones? And isn't the ability to customize an Android phone the original intent of the OS?
By giving us either an allowance to unlock the bootloader or the allowance to download (and maybe play with other manufacturer customized ROMs) or preferably both I think that it would be a win-win situation.
Hello Everyone!
Let me start off by reaching out to the XDA Administrative staff. I would like to thank you for keeping this awesome place in operation. Without you, and the XDA community, I'm not sure Android development would be as vibrant. Also, if this thread is in the wrong location, please shift it to where you would like it.
I am an Android user, not a developer, and I feel the future of the Android OS is not headed where I want it to. I'm writing this post to see if anyone has any further thoughts on the matter.
Google is marketing Android as an Open Source OS. You are able to download the source, modify it as you wish, and then build it. If you are running a vanilla build of Android (i.e. Nexus S) you are able to alter your experience as you see fit. The issue I foresee isn't the fragmentation of the Android versions (which is still debated as an issue), but rather the fragmentation of the user experience.
When an end-user purchases a handset from most major carriers, they receive an Android device. Between different handsets, and carriers, the features that are available to a single user can vary exponentially (i.e. the inability to install APK files, bypassing the market, on AT&T devices). This device is still based on Android, but is it still Android?
I have no problem with manufacturers adding their own code to the Android system, as long as the core functionality is kept the same. When you begin to alter the basic functionality of the system, at what point is it no longer Android? Linux Mint is derived from Ubuntu, but it is no longer Ubuntu. The system is a derivative of Ubuntu. If the base of the OS is going to be altered drastically (by manufacturer or by request of carrier) it needs to be known that the device is not Android.
As I am most familiar with HTC Android devices, I will use HTC SenseUI as an example (although, as I think about this more it may not be the best example). The core functionality of the HTC devices is similar, but not entirely the same. Most of the default applications (Browser, Contacts, Dialer) have been altered to what HTC feels is more atheistically pleasing. However, these features are additions. They are not removing functionality from the device.
With my HTC Evo (by default) there are core functionalities removed. Without rooting my device, I am unable to tether via WiFi. Even when rooting, if I want to keep the 4G experience, I need to install a third party application to tether instead of simply using the functionality that was supposed to be built in to Android. Why? Sprint has decided to bake their own hotspot functionality into the core of the OS. Yet to use it, I am required to pay an extra $30 fee on top of my [i/unlimited[/i] data plan. I am not knocking Sprint, here. As long as I have used their service, I’ve had nothing but stellar performance and the price point is perfect.
I feel with this core functionality removed, my Evo is no longer Android. It’s simply Android-based, an Android derived OS. The problem with these manufacturers, and their Android-derived operating system, is the lack-luster experience the consumers get with the product.
I started my Android experience on an HTC CDMA Hero. It took me eight months to get any major software upgrades (The device ran Android 1.5 from factory). Why? Because it was taking so long for manufacturers to bake their Features into the OS. If I was not a techie, I feel this experience would have pushed me away from the Android platform. I fear this fragmentation that is occurring could be the downfall of the Android platform.
I want to be able to buy a device. I want to be running the newest version of Android. If I do not like the ROM that came on the phone, I want to be able to change that. But I do not want to purchase a phone with all of this baked in garbage, or aesthetic features that require me to wait long periods of times for my device to be upgraded to the newest version of Android. And, I hope that I am not the only person to feel this way.
So here is my idea, pending input from the Android community of course: An open letter, with a petition, to all members of the OHA requesting for Android devices to be Android! Unadulterated Android OS from Google (With minor modifications to ensure specific hardware is working properly). Requesting that we are given access to the entire device, that we paid for, without having to exploit the operating system to obtain the ability to modify it as we see fit. If a manufacturer, or carrier, does not wish to comply with this, they will not be able to market the device as being Android. Rather, the device is based on Android.
Honestly, I’m not sure what I am looking to accomplish. Maybe, just so they know we are just as interested in Android as they are. And that we want nothing but for Android to succeed. Or maybe, that we support Android being open source, but not being heavily modified to the point where it’s a bastardized.
What do you think?
Tim, I support you in your belief that carriers, not manufacturers, are taking the wrong turn by messing with the full functionality that people pay a hefty price to OWN!
Do we truly OWN what we paid for, or are paying for? I don't believe so, for example, the SAMSUNG Vibrant t959, aka the Samsung Galaxy S i9000, same phone but the carriers decided to have certain features removed from the phone, not be MADE without these features, the FM radio HW and the FFC. Many people know these features were REMOVED, due to the leftover molding and other " skeletons"! Would anyone want to have a carrier when they know that they don't want there customers to have the FULLEST experience, like it was meant to be?
Sent from my HTC MyDesireHD 4G!
I would also like to share with you that MANUFACTURERS creating these "skins", I'm going to use HTC Sense for my example, is actually NOT a bad thing at all!
HTC Sense has opened a huge amount of rich content and functionality to there users immensely! HTC Hub, HTC Locations for example! All these add ons are very useful to users and does NOT restrict the full functionality but yet BOOSTS its functionality!
Unfortunately though, carriers decide to take these hearty and supreme names and totally rip it apart by taking away functionality, features, and the most...a good user experience! For example, my phone..the HTC MyTouch 4G aka the HTC Glacier. I received it with something called Sense on it, but any owner knows that is NOT Sense! That is not HTC Sense! After burying myself in the bowels of my new phone, I now have a HTC Desire HD Rom on it that will stay on it until I get the new HTC Sense 2.3 update! The full HTC Sense is a good thing and I strongly believe its worth waiting for!
Sent from my HTC Glacier
I agree, but believe Android is a growing mobile OS. If Google did not push their mobile OS (and let manufactures do what they want). Android probably would not have last against the competition. Its all a survival of the fittest situation. Some people are going to make use of their phones others aren't. Too bad bloatware has been the success for some Android phones. Glad someone else noticed this. Thank you for your thread.
The fact that Android is open source will inevitably have benefits and downfalls.
Benefits being that carriers and manufacturers can add cool stuff. Downfalls being that they can remove good or add awful stuff.
However Google can't have double standards. If it's open source, it's open source, for better or for worse.
An advantage of OEMs participating is that more parties are contributing to coding for android. More innovative ideas are potentially contributed.
For techies this is particularly awesome as we can port awesome features that perhaps weren't designed for our phone and disable lame restrictions. By this way we potentially can have all software benefits of more than one company brand etc.
Being an ordinary consumer in this context can suck.
Tim, while I understand your frustration (trust me, I've felt similar over the past few months), I don't fully agree.
The heart of Android is that it is Open. Open Source is a part of the openness that envelops Android, but what is meant by "Android is open" is so much more. OEM's skinning their devices is part of it; carriers stuffing devices full of their crapware is part of it; heck, even manufacturers/carriers limiting devices' use in one form or another is technically part of it. I think that Google's model with Android is that people can use in whatever way they see fit (except, you know, literally stealing it and claiming that they made and own it) and adapting it to be the OS that they want. Android gives people the freedom to do with it what they like.
I think that Google hopes that carriers, OEMs and everyone else will use it for the better and add to the functionality and maybe even contribute to the Open Source project and thus to the greater Android community and the vision thereof. Sadly, it is not always the case and then you get situations where a carrier or an OEM will limit a device in some way for a quick buck (your example of tethering on the EVO being a good one). I think that what AT&T did/does on their Android devices is as a final product a good example of what Android is not intended to be, but their actions are, technically, still in the spirit of Android.
The way I see Android, it is about the freedom to do whatever you like. Android is then also more for the thinking person as there are literally hundreds of devices to choose from and each one has strengths and weaknesses when compared to the rest. You as a user need to consider what it is that you want from your device and then select the device that is the most suited to your needs.
I want to be able to buy a device. I want to be running the newest version of Android. If I do not like the ROM that came on the phone, I want to be able to change that. But I do not want to purchase a phone with all of this baked in garbage, or aesthetic features that require me to wait long periods of times for my device to be upgraded to the newest version of Android. And, I hope that I am not the only person to feel this way.
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You are not the only person that feels that way, I feel the same, which is why I've decided to get myself a Nexus S. It's tricky to get it to this country, but it'll be worth it. I realise that you're on Sprint which means that a Nexus device won't work, correct? A better petition IMO, would be to petition Google to release CDMA versions of their devices.
Sorry to say, but 4G is not derived from android. The phone itself will always support it, harware wise. So, what are you saying? /: Who are you complaining to? ROM chefs for not managing to make the 4G fully functional?
totally agree with you
he is complaining about gimped devices being marketed as android devices. to sum up what i think his messages is; a device should not be called an android device if it is not fully capable of all it's natively supported features, wireless tether, root access etc. but rather should be called android based device.
Good idea but never going to happen. This is driving me away from this platform...
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
I'm curious as to what functionality we can get by simply rooting. I'm not seeing the huge deal I may be missing something so I'm asking
Sent from my Incredible using XDA App
To me, they should just change the launcher and add their own apps in (NOT replacing) and not touch other stuffs already. If totally not changing the OS makes them look alike. To me, thinking about Windows phone 7 in the future. Imagine seeing so many people holding a phone that has the totally same UI, its like seeing a Sony Ericsson X10 and a HTC Desire totally same except that the casing is different.
Technically, the fact that its open source is supposed to help the majority of OEMs, and in turnfilter down to end users as price cuts/ feature enhancements.
But premium features are premium features. You want some kind of 4g? You wont be getting it from end users at xda - it will come from manufacturers who build the radios and APIs into the device.
Android is a very modular os... if you want something all you have to do is a bit of research and buy the device that fits you best. If you go with one of the other systems you will simply have less choice. That is why android is cool.
aint gonna happen guys, doesnt make good business sense to make a device that does everything, why sell one model when you can sell two!
you can pick up any device out there and say, "wouldnt it be cool if it had VGA out or HD camera or x y z", they wont do it, and the same goes for the OS as well.
Open source has an inherant flaw, and that is its fragmentation, everyone believes it should be going in a direction they would like (including yourself). at the moment its not suffered as much as its desktop cousins probably because of its market place keeping one common aspect through all devices but give it time and you will be right, it will lose its "android" identification
If you want an alternative and a device that keeps its personality then get an Iphone or a new WP7 device at least until they crack that wide open too. Its a bit ironic really that WM may well suck but its very customizable and has been consistant throughout the ages
evo4gnw said:
he is complaining about gimped devices being marketed as android devices. to sum up what i think his messages is; a device should not be called an android device if it is not fully capable of all it's natively supported features, wireless tether, root access etc. but rather should be called android based device.
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Click to collapse
But that's just the thing isn't it? Android can probably support ANYTHING. But because of that, you aren't supposed to release hardware that isn't as flexible? That to me.. is just looney.
Hey all,
I'm sick of waiting around for the Samsung Note 10.1" and I really want a device with great stylus support. I have owned ThinkPads in the past (when they were IBM) and from the reviews it seems like most peoples problems with this device were software, not hardware related. I've owned 3 other android devices, always rooted and loaded custom ROMs on them but I am seeing a lot less development activity and choice here. So some questions:
1) I will probably order from Amazon, 32GB w/ stylus. Not sure if it will come with ICS aka 4.0.3 aka OTA3 (I think?). If it does there is currently no way to root it correct?
2) I see there are a few rooting methods, packages, apps, etc. I am getting really confused about which ones are for which device & image (K1, TPT, ROW, JP, etc). Is there a "go to" guide for this specific device?
3) Are there any AOSP ROMs available? If not, how much junk/bloat comes with Lenovo's images?
4) I am looking to use this for business, mostly note taking and diagramming. The stylus input is the *biggest* factor for me and I want it to be smoooooooth. Am I making the right purchase?
I have experience rooting and loading custom roms via CWR on the Nexus One and SGS2-Tmo. I'm just trying to do my homework and see if this device is going to meet my needs before dropping a few hundred on it.
Thanks
I think from what you've read on the forum YOU know you are making the wrong purchase but you're sick of waiting. Then Of course by all means pls get a tpt. That impatience of yours will be tested when you have to send the tablet for a few weeks to repair the broken usb/power button/volume button. The pen is NOT smooth-it develops a mind of its own after writing for a few mins. I'm also sorry to say that development on this tablet is DEAD. There were gallant efforts by koshu and Co but lenovo has proved that they are against development of any kind. Even updates from lenovo are a pain in the backside especially if u somehow had root or Cwm recovery. It's very difficult to learn from other people's mistakes until you make yours then you'd wish you been patient and saved a few hundred dollars
ac251404 said:
Hey all,
I'm sick of waiting around for the Samsung Note 10.1" and I really want a device with great stylus support. I have owned ThinkPads in the past (when they were IBM) and from the reviews it seems like most peoples problems with this device were software, not hardware related. I've owned 3 other android devices, always rooted and loaded custom ROMs on them but I am seeing a lot less development activity and choice here. So some questions:
1) I will probably order from Amazon, 32GB w/ stylus. Not sure if it will come with ICS aka 4.0.3 aka OTA3 (I think?). If it does there is currently no way to root it correct?
2) I see there are a few rooting methods, packages, apps, etc. I am getting really confused about which ones are for which device & image (K1, TPT, ROW, JP, etc). Is there a "go to" guide for this specific device?
3) Are there any AOSP ROMs available? If not, how much junk/bloat comes with Lenovo's images?
4) I am looking to use this for business, mostly note taking and diagramming. The stylus input is the *biggest* factor for me and I want it to be smoooooooth. Am I making the right purchase?
I have experience rooting and loading custom roms via CWR on the Nexus One and SGS2-Tmo. I'm just trying to do my homework and see if this device is going to meet my needs before dropping a few hundred on it.
Thanks
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Click to collapse
1) Correct, as of now.
2) Not applicable for a device you purchase that has ICS already loaded - which it will.
3) See 2 above.
4) You really have no option to the TPT if you're looking for a primarily business-oriented tablet, or one with an active digitizer pen. There aren't really any other tablets around that are designed to be anything other than entertainment toys.
darkhandsome18 said:
I think from what you've read on the forum YOU know you are making the wrong purchase but you're sick of waiting. Then Of course by all means pls get a tpt. That impatience of yours will be tested when you have to send the tablet for a few weeks to repair the broken usb/power button/volume button. The pen is NOT smooth-it develops a mind of its own after writing for a few mins. I'm also sorry to say that development on this tablet is DEAD. There were gallant efforts by koshu and Co but lenovo has proved that they are against development of any kind. Even updates from lenovo are a pain in the backside especially if u somehow had root or Cwm recovery. It's very difficult to learn from other people's mistakes until you make yours then you'd wish you been patient and saved a few hundred dollars
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Click to collapse
I guess I was basing my impressions of the pen from this video: http://youtu.be/prqFXRFHbPE It looks like it has some quirks but for the most part these are software issues. I know I am running a risk buying something that is already out-dated, but I feel like the device still has potential with the right software and a price tag under $400.
I appreciate both of your replies but I guess I am no closer to figuring this out and should put off my purchase for another few months to see what else is in the pipeline. I wish there was more video and coverage of the stylus input on the new windows tablets.
I have been waiting *years* for the right tablet with pen input to come along. I do not understand how people deny that a market exists for these devices. I'm not even in school anymore (been hoping for this type of device since my first year of university) but if I was, as a science major the ability to draw and sketch ideas and diagrams, not to mention annotate PDFs/reading material, and have digital copies of my textbooks... it just all seems so obvious. As a web developer I am still constantly sketching out ideas and concepts and *cannot* take notes with a keyboard. I am a visual and tactile learner and the subtle underlines and annotations of my notes make all the difference.
Ok sorry for venting. Thanks for the replies.
ac251404 said:
Hey all,
I'm sick of waiting around for the Samsung Note 10.1" and I really want a device with great stylus support. I have owned ThinkPads in the past (when they were IBM) and from the reviews it seems like most peoples problems with this device were software, not hardware related. I've owned 3 other android devices, always rooted and loaded custom ROMs on them but I am seeing a lot less development activity and choice here. So some questions:
1) I will probably order from Amazon, 32GB w/ stylus. Not sure if it will come with ICS aka 4.0.3 aka OTA3 (I think?). If it does there is currently no way to root it correct?
2) I see there are a few rooting methods, packages, apps, etc. I am getting really confused about which ones are for which device & image (K1, TPT, ROW, JP, etc). Is there a "go to" guide for this specific device?
3) Are there any AOSP ROMs available? If not, how much junk/bloat comes with Lenovo's images?
4) I am looking to use this for business, mostly note taking and diagramming. The stylus input is the *biggest* factor for me and I want it to be smoooooooth. Am I making the right purchase?
I have experience rooting and loading custom roms via CWR on the Nexus One and SGS2-Tmo. I'm just trying to do my homework and see if this device is going to meet my needs before dropping a few hundred on it.
Thanks
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Welcome to the TPT forums!
First of all, this tablet has a very low dev support hence you might have to wait for a long time to be able to root your device and load custom roms. As for now, there is a user who has compiled AOSP jelly bean on his TPT which is partially working. So my point is that things are happening in the dev center but at a very slow pace.
If you are buying this tablet to make diagrams and sketches then I would highly recommend it. The plus points of the TPT is that the hardware is really solid. I unfortunately dropped it a couple of times (well my friends dropped it) from a considerable height and there are no scratches or dents and the tablet works just great hence its pretty well built. Having a full sized USB is a great deal maker for me, being a university student, helps me rally data to old systems real quick.
As far as pen capabilities are concerned, there are quite a few apps that will make great use of it. Like the apps named quill,lecture notes etc will definitely be great for the device. I personally take notes on quill and i must say that the tablet lives upto my expectations. I have virtually replaced pen and paper with it. After the ICS update, the device is pretty snappy and the general UI experience has improved great folds from the honeycomb times.
I never rooted my tablet and never felt the need of doing so, cause like I said, after the ICS update the device is much faster thanks to custom launchers and disabling certain vendor apps. The main reason why i bought this tablet was to take notes and it has surpassed my expectations.
So if sketching is the main use instead of multimedia experience, then go for it. It is a practical device.
Hope that helped, let me know if i can assist you any further.
Cheers
Vito
Hey there, just a quick summary of what the different versions mean:
US,ROW,WE etc is the region of the device.
TPT is the thinkpad tablet
K1 is an entirely different Lenovo tablet, with no pen support. As far as I can tell, the two are not compatible (ROMs etc.) I'm pretty sure that K1 activity is routed here because there is no dedicated forum for it.
I hope to write a guide for the device shortly. There is not much development going on but that does not mean it is dead. Devs are working on various (very alpha) ports of CM9 and AOSP JB, and the official lenovo update is apparently very nice (including making the pen even better to use )
In terms of bloat, lenovo does add quite a few annoying apps, but luckily most can be uninstalled without root.
I bought a 32GB ROW (because I'm in canada). I have been using NVflash and am able to flash roms without the use of CWM, which could turn out to be our salvation. It looks like US tablets have NVflash disabled. I don't know if this means all ROW tablets are unlocked, but I haven't heard of anyone with an ROW tablet not having NVflash access. ( I also haven't looked very hard)
Stay tuned, I have a feeling there will some nice breakthroughs on this tablet eventually
ac251404 said:
1) I will probably order from Amazon, 32GB w/ stylus. Not sure if it will come with ICS aka 4.0.3 aka OTA3 (I think?). If it does there is currently no way to root it correct?
2) I see there are a few rooting methods, packages, apps, etc. I am getting really confused about which ones are for which device & image (K1, TPT, ROW, JP, etc). Is there a "go to" guide for this specific device?
3) Are there any AOSP ROMs available? If not, how much junk/bloat comes with Lenovo's images?
4) I am looking to use this for business, mostly note taking and diagramming. The stylus input is the *biggest* factor for me and I want it to be smoooooooth. Am I making the right purchase?
Thanks
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Click to collapse
1) Probably you will get Honeycomb version. I do not believe there is anyone upgrading the stock. And probably no ICS loaded devices were made (seems like production stopped some time ago).
2) Hard to tell, as it is unclear which version Amazon is selling. But generally if you have some basic experience, you will make it.
3) There is no working aftermarket ROM. But after upgrade to ICS the situation is a lot better. Using alternative launcher ignoring the Lenovo SW can make the job.
4) I bought it for the same reason. More than HW you fight the SW looking for the best app to make your notes. The Lenovo SW is not usable. And every alternative I tried has some issues.
I clearly understand your dilemma. I doubt that waiting for Samy Note tablet will satisfy you, as this will be the first Samy experience with pen ... I expect a lot of problems, which Lenovo somehow solved till now with ICS release.
I was buying it as replacement for old Lenovo Windows tablet with pen. Especially in combination with OneNote it was great tool ... but it was old, heavy and broken by years of use.
After some time, I got used to this tablet, and I do not use notebook going to client. There TPT can make the job. For other more demanding work I have standard "big" PC.
Of course ... if you buy TPT you will have to accept some "features" like slow charging without full power off (and cold boot after charge), or sometimes frozen unlocking touch till you do not pull the pen of. I don't know how you, but I can live with these problems .
Generally. There is NO device with ANY operating system, which can satisfy needs of me and probably you. Having electronic alternative for paper and pen.
Anyway I'm more satisfied with current status than with lot of papers, where I usually I was not able to find the note I needed
If you need such device, go for TPT a use to live with it. Not perfect, but probably the best available.
Galaxy Note 10.1
Woohoo, the galaxy note 10.1 has been officially announced for release later this month. If you have waited this long, a couple of weeks shouldn't bee too much. As for me, I'm simply salivating at the specs - Quad core processor, wifi+3g versions, 7000mAh battery, 1200 x 800 display; weighing in at approx 600g (way lighter than the ipad). Oh and you can bet that samsung's pen will be far better than the horrific stylus on the thinkpad (just ask galaxy note users). Having had a galaxy s2/s3, I know that samsung products are extremely easy to root, mod update, etc; unlike the thinkpad where even updating is a pain. All in all, I'm elated that I can finally toss out this piece of garbage that lenovo put out. Infact, if someone offers me 100pounds for my thinkpad, I'll toss it to them with some change.
http://reviews.cnet.co.uk/ipad-and-tablets/samsung-galaxy-note-10-1-review-50007108/
how do you like it
Not very impressive resolution for the price.
Maybe I'm the only one, but I am a long-time fan of the now-dead WebOS, (formerly PalmOS). Back in 2011-2013, I probably had 6 or 7 different WebOS phones, and found the hardware and the software to be superior in user experience than any others. The problem was that that was the big explosion era for Android and IOS, so WebOS got pretty overshadowed, and HP, (the new owners at the time), decided to axe any further development, and ended up selling the OS to LG, who has developed it further for TVs and stuff, (I don't have all of the technical details straight, but that's a superficial summary). Anyway, recently, out of nostalgia, I pulled out an old Veer, and bought a new Pre 2, and went back into the WebOS forums realm to get a fix of my old favorite, and I was pleasantly surprised to see the work of the community to keep WebOS alive. There is an archive of hundreds of app files available on ftp, (all abandonware available for free - even the paid apps from HP catalog), ongoing development of apps and patches to keep WebOS working with all of the changes in technology, (including updates to Preware - the unofficial dev app catalog, started way back then), and LuneOS, an open developers version of WebOS, which can be built for modern phones, and which was just updated - https://pivotce.com
I think the XC is a perfect candidate for LuneOS, being small, currently affordable, (one upside to the short lifespan of official support), and having pretty good specs. Plus, there's already plenty of foundational development needed for supporting porting, (Lineage, AOSP, and even a partly-working Halium - https://github.com/Halium/projectmanagement/issues/103). For anyone familiar with building/porting, the work needed to be done to build LuneOS for XC is minimal.
My problem(s): I am not familiar with building/porting. I am happy to test and learn, but I also currently don't have any regular access to a Linux computer, and even if I did, it would take me a looonng time to figure out from scratch what someone else could probably do in no time, since all of the elements are in place, (I checked with WebOS devs, and they said with what's available, building for XC is '... mostly a matter of configuration').
So, anybody out there with an XC want to do a build for us?
@harryharryharry @oshmoun ...?
Sorry, I'm not even remotely close to having the capabilities to pull a stunt like this, I think I'm currently in the same boat as you (minus the linux part)
Having said that, here's hoping someone more knowledgeable jumps in and picks up this interesting project. I'm willing and able to test and provide feedback as well of course.
I am currently looking for an alternative OS or ROM on a phone. My big challenges are I have a great grand fathered in at&t data plan. I don't want to loose and There is no good phone that is both on their list and seems to give me the option to try different ROMS or OS's if one dose not fit my needs.
I truly believe if there is a place that linux could fit best it is on my private device. I don't mind windows for my Daily desktop but in the past few months I have watched the location data icon flash on the top of my phone despite having turned location data off. It would be nothing for google to truly allow us to make this choice on our own. An it always felt wrong to get a google phone hack it and then side load a ROM like copper or even lineage.
I haven't looked into Paranoid Android user yet. The real thing I keep bumping my head against is compatibility with AT&T so I guess I am here to ask the following questions.
If I do a custom OS like Post Market OS, Sailfish, even Ubuntu touch. Will some screw with my AT&T plan while others don't. Its not like I am going to tell them I switching the OS but I imagine there is something in there that allows them to throttle remotely and prevents tethering etc? perhaps one of the choices spoofs that. What is the best ROM/OS for this? Crapy call by the courts on that one BTW when that decision was handed down, and kudos to the absolute BOSS who went after AT&T. Funny thing is I am not even that big of a hot spot user. I have no problem with cafe wifi. It's not like I am doing banking there and I air gap that Laptop from my home wifi. The rare occasion that I have needed it was a recent business trip and even that wasn't allot of data. But I digress.
Second question I want to support the linux community that are building new OS's for existing devices as I think that is really the week point for adoption at this time. I have been thinking about it and I think the best way to do it would be to hire a new developer to give a hand to an existing project for a few weeks. Fresh eyes and all that. Any recommendations on how to select one?
It's not that there is anything wrong with ROM's but they all use AOSP and allot live hardware designed for there retail version android meaning they get at least a licensing fee for each one. I am big believer in actual capitalism in divers markets with real consumer choice. What we have today is not it and supporting the behemoths in any way isn't really the key to success. I could take you down the rabbit hole of how the problem is the government and things like the CIA investment corporation AKA In-Q-Tell. Picking winners and loser's and taking free market's to the wood shed and shooting it in the head. However I think that is enough and it gives my disposition. So, you might Have a good Idea on how to guide me.
Thanks for any help.
WoW no response at all. Did I post this in the wrong place maybe it should be someplace else.
As per the mod bump i guess