Database Users

Mandatory "donations" for ROM access?

This is becoming more and more common. Does it bother anybody else? I mean i dont lose sleep over it, but it kind of ruins the "community" feel and turns things into more of a business.
Donations are slowly turning into payments. This is precisely why i PERSONALLY never believed in the word donation in the development world, but lets not get into that debate.
I mean, if a dev/dev team is really good, im sure they get more than enough donations to fund their work, seeing as though im always seeing people on the forums talk about how theyll donate or how much they donated. I feel like whats happening is a dev/dev team starts out strong, and at first is just soaking up the notoriety amongst users, and understandably so. But as time goes, and their knowledge and popularity grows, they realize "hey, we could probably make some serious money off this" but then they realize that that just goes against the whole "doing it in your free time" or "doing what we love doing" concepts, so they insist on continuing to label it a "donation".
Let me be clear, I have absolutely no problem with a dev/dev team expecting money in order to grant access to something that is popular. Thats what a lot of governments are founded on, and these guys definitely deserve a little spending money for all of the smiles they put on peoples faces. I just dont like the abuse of the word "donation" that takes place. Why dont you just say "you have to pay for it"? Cause thats pretty much what is going down......
This isnt directed at anyone in particular, im simply curious to see how other people feel about it.

I feel the same way. Label it as payment/charge/etc and it will be good. Just dont use the word donation when only a donation gets the user access to an area of forums, kernels, roms, other, software. Its just not correct to do
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App

It's incredibly silly. In many cases these people are charging for tweaking something that they didn't create and don't even have the rights to redistribute.
When you get right down to it, every ROM here that's built off of one of the leaked Froyo builds is in murky territory. Although parts of those leaks are GPL'd, there are tons of proprietary Samsung bits in there, and if Samsung felt like it they could slap everybody with a C&D on redistributing that stuff.
On the one hand, the people who distribute leaks (and tweaked ROMs based off of those leaks) for free are taking risks by doing so, and they're doing it to help the community. But on the other, you have people who take those leaks, apply their own tweaks to them, and then charge for the completed product. Those guys are basically profiting from the work that others took a risk in releasing to the public, which is ridiculous.
The best way to deal with it is to not simply not "donate" to people who pull such shenanigans.

JeremyNT said:
It's incredibly silly. In many cases these people are charging for tweaking something that they didn't create and don't even have the rights to redistribute.
When you get right down to it, every ROM here that's built off of one of the leaked Froyo builds is in murky territory. Although parts of those leaks are GPL'd, there are tons of proprietary Samsung bits in there, and if Samsung felt like it they could slap everybody with a C&D on redistributing that stuff.
On the one hand, the people who distribute leaks (and tweaked ROMs based off of those leaks) for free are taking risks by doing so, and they're doing it to help the community. But on the other, you have people who take those leaks, apply their own tweaks to them, and then charge for the completed product. Those guys are basically profiting from the work that others took a risk in releasing to the public, which is ridiculous.
The best way to deal with it is to not simply not "donate" to people who pull such shenanigans.
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Its very important that we dont mention names, to avoid flaming.....but i know exactly who you are talking about in particular....

The trend started with kingklick and everyone was all up in arms about it
But eventually the rest of the developers followed and now its OK for them and they accept it LOL hypocrites
This is another reason making my decision on NS much easier
Some real development will be underway i miss my N1 XDA support back in the day
Not that i dont appreciate what others have done here just most of it wasn't my cup of tea with exception of Eugene's work
But he left for a reasonable reason too much BS but his work is still freely available

It would be nice to hear a devs take on this but on the other hand this could just start a huge ordeal I understand what you guys are saying but I don't think this thread is going to help any development at all in fact it may even be counter productive the dev group is growing for the vibrant but I wouldn't say there are enough devs to start pissing people off and making them lose interest in xda all together if its not one thing its another nothing is free in this world eventually if you want something ahead of everyone else you gotta pony up the cash I went to a street fair once at the gate was a booth labeled donations they didn't deny me access when I refused to pay but I didn't enjoy the full access everyone else did when they received theyre wrist bands that got them free drinks your not paying to get in your paying for the cause and the work and the time it takes to create something that millions can enjoy ......i wouldn't get to butt hurt about it its the way of the world be it in day to day life forums or whatever else you think it applies to just my opinion we're all entitled to them I suppose
V5 custom vibrant

I take back allot of what i said apparently some are still releasing roms here

willsnews said:
It would be nice to hear a devs take on this but on the other hand this could just start a huge ordeal I understand what you guys are saying but I don't think this thread is going to help any development at all in fact it may even be counter productive the dev group is growing for the vibrant but I wouldn't say there are enough devs to start pissing people off and making them lose interest in xda all together if its not one thing its another nothing is free in this world
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In terms of my opinion, and what im trying to say, the paragraph in bold in the OP highlights my exact problem. I understand the concept and the need for devs to ask for money in whatever form, and i have absolutely no issue with that. But thats what they are, PAYMENTS. The only thing im questioning is why they insist on calling them donations. They are not donations when they are in the format of a transaction.
do·na·tion noun \dō-ˈnā-shən\
Definition of DONATION
: the act or an instance of donating: as a : the making of a gift especially to a charity or public institution b : a free contribution : gift
trans·ac·tion noun \tran-ˈzak-shən, tran(t)-ˈsak-\
Definition of TRANSACTION
1a : something transacted; especially : an exchange or transfer of goods, services, or funds <electronic transactions>
Theres just something about it that seems a bit unethical to me, almost like a bit of a marketing scam. "Donate" has a much friendlier, less threatening tone to it than "payment". Maybe theres a mindset in place that people will be more inclined to "donate" rather than "pay". Im just trying to figure out why they cant just call it like it is.
Regardless of how you may feel about it, theres no question that sometimes it feels like our "community" is faltering in favor of making money.
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In terms of the devs leaving XDA because of threads like this? i mean come on, we are talking about word definitions here...not insulting peoples families.....

Donation: ASK for CONTRIBUTIONS DURING development
Payment: REQUIRE COMPENSATION for COMPLETED product

I haven't ever seen a developer require payment for a complete product here on XDA. Some give early access to buggy ROMs and kernels, but that's it.

I don't. see anyone asking for a payment to get a full version of a rom. some gets it early when you donated but still the ones who didn't still gets the rom later. If that's how they want it to be then let it be.
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App

Used to have "buy me a beer" links up at the most a couple of years ago. Seems there was more collaboration among devs like LucidRem who was super nice on G1 apps to SD. Was constantly being tweaked by seperate devs to get a better partition solution for example.
Don't blame me, blame my keyboard's autocorrection algorithm.

Any developer that does that is very clearly breaking the law. They could be very easily sued by anyone that cared.

Haha, even if that's true, which I don't think it is.....i think that would be taking things just a tad too far
Sent from my pocket rocket!

I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM WITH IT!!
I have been on with Android since Day 1. XDA and the developers who come here are the only reason I am so passionate about my phone and android. Without these 2 things a large part of my "hobby" would be severely hampered.
Developers do a tremendous amount for us. Can you imagine being on JI6 right now? I feel that they get barely anything in donations.... if this is a method for them to beta with a small group and reward those who support them/him, than I think they should take advanatage of that... and if it leads to developers earning a bit more than they would normally, awesome for them.
Cause you know what....
When developers are happy.... WE are all happy!!!
I mean come on, they release them to the public anyway.... is it okay for you to whine about not getting something sooner, that you had no part in creating/making.... what gives YOU the right???
PS, both R14 and Nero_Beta are very tasty... can't wait to get my hands on Axura 2.2 soon also.

maybe we should point out who the REAL developers are, and who are the wannabe's like people that take others work and just theme it.
Maybe just maybe then, these people that are rushing to hand over fists of money would donate to the people that actually put things out, and not the winzip blender wannabe's.
I "had" respect for some of these people until I first hand decompiled their rom to find out it wasn't there's at all. Adding a theme and transitions to Windows, does not make it mine.. how hard can that be to understand?

s15274n said:
I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM WITH IT!!I mean come on, they release them to the public anyway.... is it okay for you to whine about not getting something sooner, that you had no part in creating/making.... what gives YOU the right???.
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well i really hope youre not referring to me......i have a good paying a job and if i really wanted to pay for a ROM i would, but i dont......check my signature, i AM still runnning JI6, i dont use Macnut or Obsidian (neither ever required donations). I am speaking purely based on observation, not personal experience.
I mean if i was stuck stuck with JI6 forever, i wouldnt be thatdisappointed, because i have my phone setup exactly how i want it. Im not a fan of leaked ROMs, never have been. So i wont be waiting up all night waiting for Nero to go public either.
Please dont confuse me for one of those crybabies who just HAS to get their greedy fingers on the newest ROM right away just to be with the "in-crowd"...thats not what im about
s15274n said:
if this is a method for them to beta with a small group and reward those who support them/him, than I think they should take advanatage of that... and if it leads to developers earning a bit more than they would normally, awesome for them
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please dont misunderstand me, you have to read carefully what im trying to say....i have absolutely NO ISSUE with devs receiving money....none. they often deserve it. i just dont like the way the concept of "donating" is presented sometimes. The way you outlined it ^^ is a great way of wording the way it SHOULD be appraoched....unfortunately it isnt always approached that way, and THOSE are the instances im referring to in my OP

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_General_Public_License
This issue is that a custom ROM is built upon the work of thousands of other people that all licensed their work under the GPL because they wanted to it to be used that way. When someone takes their work and sells it, they are expressly misusing the work of others.
I think its fantastic that people are willing to put their time into developing ROMs, but at the same time it's very disrespectful and illegal to not follow the wishes of the people whose work the ROMs are built on. Ultimately, ROMs are very, very minor tweaks to what has been the result of almost twenty years and millions of man hours of work. If you want to be a part of that, that's great, but you have to play by the rules. After all, those rules are what made ROM development possible.

I can understand why they do it. Most people don't know how many hours go into just developing a theme let a long a full rom. So I understand them wanting to make some money for their time, but I also do agree with people who think they should not have a donation requirement to download, they should label it as a pay to download / theme or rom.
Here is an example of why I think devs do a required donation:
Here is the Nexus Theme I made (Did not ask for donations): http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=860198
To date this has had: 318 downloads
Amount of donations recieved: $0
Time Spent making it: 10+ Hrs
Here is the Frobuntu theme I made (Asked for Donations): http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=846285
To date this has had: 333 Downloads
Amount of donations recieved: $20
Time Spent Making it: 20+ hrs
So I can see why they do this. It makes a difference when you ask for the donations, but... again there should not be a required donation. That is called "selling" your rom/theme. They could do it the way I did the Frobuntu rom where I "Highly Suggested" a donation amount in big letters in the header of the post, but still gave it away to those who cannot pay.
Just my two cents. I would never flame or look down upon a dev for choosing to require a donation, that is their decision. I just choose not to do that myself.

No offense but most custom roms have a couple issues, needing to be fixed in the next release, meaning in a few days your gonna have to flash again, then the cycle continues, another bug so needing a new release... But the new release isn't faster, better or any cooler than the release before...lol
I'm on stock jk6 with my tweaks, my mods, and my setup, I was on customs for a bit, but all this donation crap has made me not wanting to try custom roms from anyone here, especially with all the drama :d
Needless to say I've never donated anything other than to xda itself..... I would never give my money to people just doing this for fun just like I do.... Donate to me then lol...
Anyways, id advise against donating to get a early release that ain't any better than the one before....lol
All I can say is suckeeeeers... Sorry but true, you have been hustled...
P.s. Anyone with a donate to me sign in their sig or whatever are completely retarded imo..... Lol

Devs that quit: who's to blame?

The thought popped up in my head this morning. I remembered Eugene, the developer of the Macnut ROM, who no longer supported XDA. Then another dev, jellette, that quit for reasons I can't quite understand. Who's to blame for these developers quitting the scene, or only providing ROMs on other sites?
I'm a 16 year old high school student in San Francisco. I've been lurking the forums ever since I got my Vibrant and my friend directed me here. I'm not at all new to hacks like these, I've been participating in communities and actions like these since I was 12. I never found a reason to become closely connected within this community, though. It's not a small group, it's a much larger one, and I don't have any place to fit in. This is one of my first posts, and it's one that I feel I need to share with the community: my thoughts and beliefs on the whole situation about devs that no longer support XDA or flat out quit.
Let's cover some ground first:
These devs are not paid. They make these ROMs, custom kernels, and other mods in their spare time. The only money they make off these ROMs comes from donations, and some devs don't ask for donations anyway.
The users are not paying for this work. The users don't need to give feedback, however they are permitted and allowed to comment, criticize, or help the developers in any way.
The trade made here is obviously unfair: give nothing, get something. In many cases, get a great piece of work for your phone that will make it blazing fast and give it features and functionality unheard of to other users of the same phone. The devs are ok with this though, as they freely release their work without a price tag.
However, there are some things devs are not ok with. I can't speak for each and every single developer, but having once done development in my own time as well, I can say the one thing that really aggravates all developers, and all people even, is when your work goes unnoticed, or worse yet, gets disrespected. When some bombarding, ignorant user comes along and rips apart your hard work, what are you to do? "This ROM is utterly horrible, you should've put more work into it before releasing this paperweight." Maybe a bit over the top, but it gets the point across, and it's from this that a developer will most likely quit XDA as he sees fit.
So what can we say about the users, the freeloaders? Some decency is expected of all of us, basically. That's the lesson every user should know: respect those that give you what you get. They're not robots that work endlessly with nothing better to do. These are people, hard working men and women who spend hours on end making software for you. Give them your respect. Constructive criticism is nice, but never go so far as to demote them as a person. If you want their respect, you must give them respect. Make them feel welcome and they will continue to work for the entire community. It's simple, human nature.
As for developers, are they in the right place to quit under these grounds? There is no set ground for quitting. Each person sees fit at what time he or she should quit working, in any case: as a dev, as an employee, as anyone. People need to know their limits, and they do know their limits. As a free working developer, they have a lot more liberty in deciding when they want to stop working for the community. Even someone who didn't feel accused or demoted could leave for no reason and it wouldn't affect them as much as if they had left their full-time paying job. This is not a source of revenue, it's not a source of anything, in fact.
One thing devs should know, and this is coming straight from me, is that as someone who releases work on the forums, your name will be known, and it's wise that you build a public image for yourself. Quitting without reason, without a post to describe your feelings, to express concerns or thoughts on the community or whatever else you'd like to mention, does not help build a good public image. You are at liberty to do as you please, that's your free choice, but people will judge you based on your actions. Throwing yourself into a position as such, as a chef, comes with more than just giving out work. It comes with the comments users will give you. It's good to be able to politically conduct yourself, to create a good public image, which will ultimately help you avoid the negative comments the public makes.
In conclusion:
Users: Be respectful, have some common decency. This is for all of us, not just those who don't get it. It's a rule we should all know. Developers are humans, just like us. Respect them as such.
Developers/chefs: You are free to do what you like. Quit as you please, continue as you please, no one will stop you. It is, however, important to make a good public image. Not necessary, but important. Conduct yourself in a political manner, because us users see you as a strong force, not just as a person. Be ready to make a good public image.
I want to know your thoughts on this. I feel it's important that this ground is covered, and that we come to a general consensus on this. The more you know, the better off you are. The more we all know, the better off we will all be.

if only there were more users like you.
I'm tired of these little immature kids making these hardworking devs leave the forum.

xriderx66 said:
if only there were more users like you.
I'm tired of these little immature kids making these hardworking devs leave the forum.
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I second that...
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App

I also think that those developing roms need to understand that a lot of members are teenagers that do not what respect is. I myself am 30yrs old and I know that there are more members that are much younger and very childish. The devs need to not take it out on the entire forum. There are more members that appreciate their work than there are that do not.

I agree with you 100% in partucular regarding the users.
I came to this forum looking for support, trying to get the GPS working on my Vibrant.
Before I posted or did anything I read many threads and researched what it meant to use Odin and to root the phone and flash a rom and to recover from a problem before I even started anything. When I did I was fully aware that I and I alone, was responsible for anything that happened to my phone. I am continually amazed at how some people jump in, without a clue as to what they are doing, then seem to try to blame the developers for their problems. Then you have the group who complain about colors or a boot animation or a "missing" app on a rom they got for free. Simply amazing the entitlement people have over something that someone puts out there for them to try to improve their phone for free.
I can understand how the devs could get fed up with these sorts of actions. It can take a pretty thick skin to deal with all the stuff I see going on here.

It is like a preschool in here...just get used to it.
Life will go on, and someone will always be making roms--herds are pathetic, individuals are lost inside said herds. Keep your ears open and your mouth shut.
My $0.02

No one but the Dev can pull their ROMs and leave. We all take criticism in life. Some run, some brush it off.

ScooterG said:
No one but the Dev can pull their ROMs and leave. We all take criticism in life. Some run, some brush it off.
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I agree to a point, just if anyone runs off Master I'm forming a mob with pitchforks and torches...

I have plenty of respect for the few guys who make a few useful programs, and I don't think I've ever bashed a dev's work openly. But:
ScooterG said:
No one but the Dev can pull their ROMs and leave. We all take criticism in life. Some run, some brush it off.
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/Twerd.
Gotta give respect to receive, and some devs just think they are God's gift to Captain Taco. It's the Internet - no one gets respect on the 'tubes. Who gives a ****. The growing up really neds to happen on the part of most of these "I'm pouty b/c someone said something crass about some weekend work I did" "developers."
Drewstein said:
I agree to a point, just if anyone runs off Master I'm forming a mob with pitchforks and torches...
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McMaster should shrink his huge sig. It's a symptom of my point: get over your self importance. There are (good) forums on the 'Net that enforce a 5-line or 100px tall rule (vs. his 300px +).
Again, not bashing the work, just the attitude, as presented.
-bZj

Agree ...........great post clear concise and to the point. Funny, that a 16 year old can articulate the basics of good behavior that most in here do not practice. I do not blame a lot of the devs leaving, people rag on their work give nothing but complaints..... as if they have the skill (yeah right).People will eagerly wait 10 min in a Starbucks line, pay 5.00 for a coffee and never donate to the dev, XDA or anything........then complain when the custom rom they got for free doesn't work the WAY they like or want......... talk about selfish irony...........
Great post !! kevipapo1 (from a guy old enough to be your grandpa )

i agree with it. people need to remember that without dev. we would all be running stock

If master leaves I'll suicide.
I hope ur reading this, master

Unfortunately this is the interwebz and this is has its been in any android forum I've ventured through. As you are young, but yet seem to be fairly wise, I say to you "welcome to the world my friend!"

Very good post.
Most criticism is from lack of knowledge/education. People don't understand how difficult it is to develop a ROM. So they criticise what they don't understand because it inconveniences them.
However, I will disagree somewhat with developer criticism. Although, I don't agree with the way Master handled the situation, I can relate.
I believe it is very important for us to realize that ROM developers are not public figures. They have the freedom to stop and start as they please. Their passion is development, after all, not public relations.
Kudos OP. Excellent post!
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App

I just want to say thanks to all Developers here at XDA. Without you and your ROMS or tweaks i wouldn't have the great phone i have today that i spent my hard earned money on, and to the immature people if something doesn't work right on a ROM insted of being an ASS!!! and saying how crappy it is say whats wrong and they will fix it they have for me.
Again thanks to all who have helped you don't even know me but you all are ready to help at anytime day or night.
GARY

I personally am 15 and have been in xda since 13
I appreciate the devs for all their work if it wasn't for them i would have killed myself with many frustrations of a stock vibrant
I hate that some are immature and that some get really irritating i understand that some are new but some just get on nerves.
I wish eugene came back because he was.one of the first devs here
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App

This is a great post & I echo the op's sentiments. This forum and the devs that contribute to it are a phenomenal resource to all of us and deserve to be treated with respect as we all do. The real shame is that a 16 yr old realizes this more than most of us adults (some of which are in name only). I've been in these forums for only a short time and the amount of immaturity, cynacism and deconstructive criticism I have seen is truly apalling and frankly I'm suprised more haven't bailed. I guess the Golden Rule isn't important when you've got the anonymity of the internet.
Sent from my SCH-I500 using XDA App

Lethal_NFS said:
I also think that those developing roms need to understand that a lot of members are teenagers that do not what respect is. I myself am 30yrs old and I know that there are more members that are much younger and very childish. The devs need to not take it out on the entire forum. There are more members that appreciate their work than there are that do not.
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Just because someone is childish does NOT mean that they are a child.
I've seen many adults that throw a tantrum worse than a 5 year old and many 5 year olds who act like they're going on 30.
Likely their age has nothing to do with it & its just a reflection of their random genetics and/or crappy parenting.
down8 said:
McMaster should shrink his huge sig. It's a symptom of my point: get over your self importance. There are (good) forums on the 'Net that enforce a 5-line or 100px tall rule (vs. his 300px +).
Again, not bashing the work, just the attitude, as presented.
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If its an issue, then xda should make a max image/sig size (like you mentioned other sites do). That simple.
Most of his signature tells you to search & read the XDA rules before posting, not really bad advice & since he has to answer questions from many people who don't do either, I can't really blame him.
It would be a LOT more aesthetically pleasing if it were text only, but since XDA allows it, I don't really have a problem with it.
Most of the devs have developed a bit of an attitude (I've seen it from Eugene, SomBionix, Master, and a few others) because of the crap they have to deal with & XDA not enforcing their own rules (this is supposed to have changed after the town hall meeting).

i have been on xda since 2005, left came back etc etc, i do minor edits and coding here and there for myself because i dont have the time like these other people. but honestly most people need to get over themselves. this is a strong community and will live on without you. that said this community has made some people millionaires and others just brats who want the limelight. the idea behind this site is to take the software into our own hands. its us vs. corporations. if devs want to leave cool stfu about it and go but keep in mind that unless you have a contributed to the community dont complain about someones work. devs know what come when you start producing products. its the same that companys deal with. most leave because they get their feelings hurt. its not like people are stalking you and breaking your kneecaps because angry birds wouldnt play during their lunchbreak. ignore the negative and stay or wine and leave. but this place or any place wont change. the more successful you get the harder your skin must be

About me and why it all got under my skin.
James / jellette / Heathen
39 year old, married, father of 3
<Edited out line, too personal>
I look around and see Darky, Doc, Jim, Eugene, TW and everyone else doing Gingerbread clones - and they aren't called "Copy Cat" - but when I do it I am. That makes a guy pretty darn mad.
I set out to do the latest Rom 100% from scratch without drawing from the work of any existing Rom specifically because of my relationship with TW. The takers out there have no idea how much work goes into doing that.
Here was and continues to be the process with PepperKake.
1. Download the JL5 Rom from samfirmware.com
2. Odin to get a feel for the new firmware.
3. Rip the files from factoryfs.rfs
4. Release the first flashable Odexed recovery safe JL5 by 30 minutes
5. Deodex the apps and jars - on this build I was unsuccessful deodexing swype and I used krylon360's swype and credited him for that.
6. Download the Nexus S dump
7. Pull all of the images I needed out of framework-res.apk and SystemUi.apk and the original bootanimation.zip and the icon out of every matching Gingerbread app
8. Carefully build the theme, re-mod the Gingerbread Launcher and create the faux crt shutdown sequence.
9. Rip the gps files from the Nexus S dump including permissions for gps and maps and restructure JL5 to call these files
10. Replace with 3E recovery, ensure the sdcard mounts, etc..
11. Flash and fix 219 times until it is 99% bug free and ready for an Alpha release.
As you can see, this is not a weekend cooked rom as put earlier in the thread.
I update my roms usually once a day until it is complete, I fulfill requests for kernel flash packs for the rom, etc..
I did get pretty angry and pulled my roms - I later replaced the most recent rom. I also set up my website as a backup, which is quickly becoming my primary release source. I will stay around xda though like it or not.
On those who have followed me to the new site in support: Thank you.
Finally, a very short word on TW.
I have nothing but respect for these guys. I learned everything from them.
And that is my word on this.

[???]Captain Obvious asks a dumb question

OK here goes, the question that is probably obvious to alot of the dev types on these forums, and maybe to some of the non as well. (And yes I full expect to get flamed throughout this thread for my thoughts on this so bring it on).
Question?
Has the business model of the world become so internallized that companies such as our beloved samsung *cough cough choke* , and tmobile really think that they can turn a a semi-blind eye (yes I know that they are aware we root, and flash custom roms) to the incredible talent that is out there? And that becasue they are the giant that the masses will still support them?
Now my thoughts
Samsung has taken months to produce a version of froyo that they could put out to the masses, I really do believe that tmobile plays a heavy part in that as well, adding the bloat and crap that we inevidably remove. Both of them together are to blame.
Now at the same time we have these teams of programmers and graphic artists, designers, and coders that within days (sometimes hours) of new source being leaked they have built stable, custom roms, themes, mods, kernels, lagfixes,,,etc. And these make our phones into what samsung could have only dreamed about.
Also you will never convince me that the leaks are not at times done to help samsung, tmobile, or whoever fix a problem they can't figure out INTERNALLY. (back to the internal business question again)
Now stay with me and remember that I am only questioning big business practices and arrogance,,,don't hate on me!!!
To me the answer to all of this is obvious in the dreamwold state that I am in, so here is what I really don't understand,,
Why are Samsung and T-Mobile not contracting with Teams like Team Whiskey, and Master to build custom roms, with designers like Jdan, and Tonicacid to build themes, with Eugene and Krylon360, chainfire, Whitehawkx, and supercurio, to build custom kernels, and modems? (I know i missed alot of talent,,,sorry if I missed you)
Yes, I like having the opportunity to get all this for free. (BTW I have at one time or another donated to almost everyone I mentioned above. If i use your stuff and like it I pay for it) Giving the source code to these people and contracting them to build freely (freedom is the key to the builds) would benefit everyone I think. I would pay $10 for a rom, $5 for a cool theme, and $2or $3 for a cool mod.Doesnt sound like much, but the quantity of those out there doing it would generate a sizeable amount of money. In fact I am sure that there are people with the means to request a complete custom setup for the right price, and you know that to have a truly one of a kind set up with custom icons coloring and such people would pay for it. And if these were available in a controlled setting that johnny homeowner could do safely, or have done at a store, the possibilities are limitless.
I can understand the potential liability of people flashing their phones, and bricking, but I'm sure that problem could be somehow solved (to a point there are always stupid people out there).
Ideas? Thoughts? Rants?,,,
I am now officially off my sopabox, let the hating begin,,,,,

Let me tell you why, because people who works at sansumg...for them its a job. On the other hand for the devs here, its a passion or hobbit. When is the last time you see someone going to their office and enjoys their work? So they dont work as fast or even.slacks off here and there. Not many right? Also. The dev here can get away with posting rom that bricks because they usually have a disclaimure reliefing them of responsibilities, samsung doesnt get that with tmobile or the public thus it takes them longer to make sure everything works, and because of that they cant try more radical approches like those being incorporated into the roms here. Monetary support is also a factor, supporting an old phone doesnt make you money, unless you charge for firmware update like apple used to.

Like any other big business there are many different players with many different desires. That's the game of politics... They have to take into account the liability they could take on by using something that could cost them too much money....
That being said...I completely agree with you! They need to take on the talent that the world has to offer. Android is Open Source for a reason...to allow for everyone to throw their ideas at it. Google has given everyone the opportunity to show what they can do. I appreciate the Devs we have here on XDA. If anything I would like to thank all the hard working Devs & XDA for giving us a centralized place to access all the riches the world has to offer.

PaiPiePia said:
The dev here can get away with posting rom that bricks because they usually have a disclaimure reliefing them of responsibilities, samsung doesnt get that with tmobile or the public thus it takes them longer to make sure everything works, and because of that they cant try more radical approches like those being incorporated into the roms here.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is exactly the reason. Let's not pretend that everything the devs do here is perfect. It's not.

PaiPiePia said:
The dev here can get away with posting rom that bricks because they usually have a disclaimure reliefing them of responsibilities
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hang on there PeePants. These devs are GIVING their work away! They do their best to beta release them first! And there is almost NO SUCH THING AS "A ROM THAT BRICKS YOUR PHONE" since it is so easy to Odin back.
pdefazio said:
This is exactly the reason. Let's not pretend that everything the devs do here is perfect. It's not.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nor do you have any right to demand perfection. Maybe that's why they call it 'Development'!!!

The devs on here for the most part do it as a hobby. The amount of work whether it be hours or days, that goes into some of these roms ANNDDDD(for emphasis) the UPDATTTEESSS, we as a consumer would say eff that I can't afford this anymore.
Big business is in the market of making money with as little effort or cost as possible. Hardware is cheap, easy and linear so they grab the consumers attention by advertising this amazing machine's specs. The "average consumer guy" just sees blinking lights and "I am a man because of my awesome phone specs" stuff and buys it no questions asked. Out of 50 customers I can only assume 1 might come in and ask which version of Android is running on their phone.
We are a small SMALL % of their market so why would they bring in these amazing teams to update and develop if they can pay someone to get as little as possible on the table to satisfy the average consumer.
You want to share with the world? Get a 3rd party license to develop with T-Mobile and/or Samsung, which btw will cost you Millions, then hire on these guys and sell their "labor"(since Android is open source). Once all that is done, tell me how you plan to turn a profit at $5-10 or even $20 a ROM. Again, once contracted the devs will be charging for updates(labor) as well.
No flaming needed here, actually a good conversation.

Yes, they are ignoring talent, but companies don't give a **** about anything until it starts impacting their bottom line.
I've always been a firm of believer of "vote with your money." This is the first Samsung smart phone I've ever bought and every month that passes with Samsung ignoring the GPS issue cements my thought that it will also be the last.
We can lament all we want, but if next year you go and buy another Samsung phone/product, you're doing nothing to change things.

No.
Sorry to rain on your parade, but no dev that doesn't work with samsung can't.
The devs here are strictily MODIFIERS.
samsung is.the.creator.
Without them we have nothing.
They leak out kernels, and our devs modify to make it faster and stable.
NO dev here can make drivers for your phone.NO DEV can make kernels without using something from samsung.
I understand why u all hate samsung but be thankful their atleast giving leaks.
Also I agree with the guy above the devs here have an excuse , "u didn't read the disclaimer"
Also there have been plenty of roms that brick users.

hellcatrydr said:
Hang on there PeePants. These devs are GIVING their work away! They do their best to beta release them first! And there is almost NO SUCH THING AS "A ROM THAT BRICKS YOUR PHONE" since it is so easy to Odin back.
Nor do you have any right to demand perfection. Maybe that's why they call it 'Development'!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Obviously you can't hold a proper, intelligent and civil conversation without resorting to name calling and fanboy attitude. This is the second time you called me pee pants for no reason, you sir are going on my ignore list.
blizzard1017 said:
The devs on here for the most part do it as a hobby. The amount of work whether it be hours or days, that goes into some of these roms ANNDDDD(for emphasis) the UPDATTTEESSS, we as a consumer would say eff that I can't afford this anymore.
Big business is in the market of making money with as little effort or cost as possible. Hardware is cheap, easy and linear so they grab the consumers attention by advertising this amazing machine's specs. The "average consumer guy" just sees blinking lights and "I am a man because of my awesome phone specs" stuff and buys it no questions asked. Out of 50 customers I can only assume 1 might come in and ask which version of Android is running on their phone.
We are a small SMALL % of their market so why would they bring in these amazing teams to update and develop if they can pay someone to get as little as possible on the table to satisfy the average consumer.
You want to share with the world? Get a 3rd party license to develop with T-Mobile and/or Samsung, which btw will cost you Millions, then hire on these guys and sell their "labor"(since Android is open source). Once all that is done, tell me how you plan to turn a profit at $5-10 or even $20 a ROM. Again, once contracted the devs will be charging for updates(labor) as well.
No flaming needed here, actually a good conversation.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Learn from this guy, he saw the situation from the same point of view as me, and he expanded on it rather than flaming.

Thread Locked

We are our own worst enemy

It's really so disappointing to see the reception given to SamsungJohn here in XDA. I know many of you are angry about the Froyo delays, but *****ing out the social media liasson won't accomplish anything.
This is the first time ever, AFAIK, that a handset manufacturer has reached out directly to the XDA community. Maybe it's all smoke and mirrors, who knows, but we won't see anything if we just reject their attempts out of hand.
And I think people need to stop with the notion that Samsung is evil or just wants to hurt users. They're a huge company; it may not have even been on the radar of the decisionmakers that we were dissatisfied.
We're in a fairly recent and novel paradigm where users expect timely software updates--a year and a half ago nobody expected that. You bought a phone and maybe there might be a firmware update somewhere down the road. And out of the millions of people who bought SGS phones, we're just a very small minority. If we want cooperation from Samsung we need to impress upon them the advantages of collaborating with devs, because honestly they're going to make billions either way. If we demonstrate that cooperation will involve crass tantrums, they'll just sell their phones to the millions of people who don't give a crap about independent development. Do we really want that kind of belligerent attitude a la Motorola? I don't know about you, but I'd rather we try to move Samsung towards us rather than away from us.
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App

Samsung is trying to help us and we are biting our noses off just to spite our face. I think they are doing a great thing by coming on here.
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App

Agreed...well said...both of you.

I agree that was pretty messed up. It's bad enough all the devs have been scrared away. Ex-da isn't what it used to.

I totally agree. The guy is not a decision maker at Samsung - he came here to try to get feedback about how the company can improve and people just flamed the guy relentlessly. Further proof that there are too many children and buffoons here. It's no wonder that devs loathe coming here. FYI to the guys that tore into SamsungJohn - Krylon had a good conversation with Sammy and they are looking to get in contact with Sombionix as well.

What's not on their radar with a 90% surety is timely software updates. Hardware companies are going to drag their feet as much as possible to provide software upgrades for old hardware, if they do it at all.

I don't meam any disrespect to anyone but I gotta disagree.
Samsung is a huge company but they have also been in the mobile business for quite a while and they have also been known to release products that don't quite work the way they are supposed to, just like the Vibrant and until now there was no post purchase support or at least no usable support or updates... Look at the history of the Beholds and almost any other phone they released.
Releasing a phone like the Vibrant in 2010 that lags out of the box and where the gps issues make the navigation function unusable is just not right. Stock this phone is a joke and after a few days of use it is really frustrating. They are supposed to do a lot more then just release a device after device and look at the sale numbers.
These are very expensive devices and for that kind of money they are supposed to work!
Agree or disagree with me but facts are facts. Not everyone who owns such a device will root or flash their device with a custom rom in order to make it usable. I have played with many other android phones and they all work smoother and stock a lot better than any of the galaxy s series so far...
To list some...
Htc incredible, nexus one, mytouch 4g, tmobile g2, droid x, even htc aria which is not even in the same class as above mentioned models.
If the developers on the xda forums can make this phone perform ten times better than stock, explain to me why Samsung's developers cannot do the same...
I speak for myself, but I am fed up with samsung and their quality control and I can say this was the last Samsung phone I purchased until they do something revolutionary and change my mind...
Isn't someone testing these devices for a week or two before they release them in order to make sure everything works as it should?! If they are then maybe samsung should hire someone from this forum instead...
Also why don't the phone manufacturers just make a survey on the forums for feedback from users as to what the phone should include as far as software or hardware... 2010 top tier android device without a flash for the camera is just wrong and the night mode cannot replace the flash. I do not use the camera as much but just for the sake of it they should have led flash, some people use it and want it, how expensive can it be to do that...
The Super AMOLED display is the best in my opinion for now, but it is not enough to justify the many other mistakes or flaws... The displays on other phone aren't crap either!
Sorry for the long post.
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App

I'm totally sympathetic to the people who are fed up and say #neveragain. But the solution to that is to complain through other channels and then never buy Samsung again.
This rep came here reaching his hand out to the dev community, and insulting him or whining does a serious disservice to everyone else here. I think he came here to try to create a mutually beneficial relationship, not take complaint tickets. Many of us are skeptical, but we think it's worth seeing if anything can come of this (and if you aren't, the actual devs are).

BorisZX6R said:
I don't meam any disrespect to anyone but I gotta disagree.
Samsung is a huge company but they have also been in the mobile business for quite a while and they have also been known to release products that don't quite work the way they are supposed to, just like the Vibrant and until now there was no post purchase support or at least no usable support or updates... Look at the history of the Beholds and almost any other phone they released.
Releasing a phone like the Vibrant in 2010 that lags out of the box and where the gps issues make the navigation function unusable is just not right. Stock this phone is a joke and after a few days of use it is really frustrating. They are supposed to do a lot more then just release a device after device and look at the sale numbers.
These are very expensive devices and for that kind of money they are supposed to work!
Agree or disagree with me but facts are facts. Not everyone who owns such a device will root or flash their device with a custom rom in order to make it usable. I have played with many other android phones and they all work smoother and stock a lot better than any of the galaxy s series so far...
To list some...
Htc incredible, nexus one, mytouch 4g, tmobile g2, droid x, even htc aria which is not even in the same class as above mentioned models.
If the developers on the xda forums can make this phone perform ten times better than stock, explain to me why Samsung's developers cannot do the same...
I speak for myself, but I am fed up with samsung and their quality control and I can say this was the last Samsung phone I purchased until they do something revolutionary and change my mind...
Isn't someone testing these devices for a week or two before they release them in order to make sure everything works as it should?! If they are then maybe samsung should hire someone from this forum instead...
Also why don't the phone manufacturers just make a survey on the forums for feedback from users as to what the phone should include as far as software or hardware... 2010 top tier android device without a flash for the camera is just wrong and the night mode cannot replace the flash. I do not use the camera as much but just for the sake of it they should have led flash, some people use it and want it, how expensive can it be to do that...
The Super AMOLED display is the best in my opinion for now, but it is not enough to justify the many other mistakes or flaws... The displays on other phone aren't crap either!
Sorry for the long post.
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I was one of those that got beholded they flat out lied on that one. Here I am again with the vibrant guessing thats samsung mo to screw ya

This rep was hosed due to his own lack of knowledge, nothing else.
He started off by filling the cool-aid cups and passing them around expecting everyone to drink freely.
"Hi, I'm SamsungJohn and I have some REALLY BIG things for everyone here"
*I'll wisely not mention that I can't answer questions about hardware or software and in fact I can't really answer a single question anyone has*
It was Samsung corporate in damage control mode,NOTHING ELSE.
Funk dem. Do they think everyone is so stupid they cannot see thru this BS ?
I honestly do feel sorry for John getting thrown to the sharks by his employer, but I know for a damn fact it could have been handled with tact and finesse.

Oh yea, before the flaming closet dwellers start in....
i.e.
" Hi, I'm John, I work for Samsung, and they have given me the job position of liason with the public.
Now before I go any further, please understand that I am under corporate restraints and NDAs (non-disclosure agreements) so that I can only give so much info and so much data. I do not know yet if they will allow me to give access to unreleased software.
So, within those restraints I will do my best to provide what I can.
Yes, I know a great many of you are upset with Samsung and that is why I am here.
Please go easy on me as I do not own or control the company"
Now, would that really have been so very tough of an introduction ?

n2ishun said:
This rep was hosed due to his own lack of knowledge, nothing else.
He started off by filling the cool-aid cups and passing them around expecting everyone to drink freely.
"Hi, I'm SamsungJohn and I have some REALLY BIG things for everyone here"
*I'll wisely not mention that I can't answer questions about hardware or software and in fact I can't really answer a single question anyone has*
It was Samsung corporate in damage control mode,NOTHING ELSE.
Funk dem. Do they think everyone is so stupid they cannot see thru this BS ?
I honestly do feel sorry for John getting thrown to the sharks by his employer, but I know for a damn fact it could have been handled with tact and finesse.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's one thing to remain skeptical towards the guy and his motives but its completely another to flat out accuse him of lying and subterfuge merely because he may have omitted the exact words you need to hear or he wasn't nice enough, etc. It seems fairly obvious to me that if ANY large company was to hold a Q&A session on specifics of perceived missteps, they would choose a much more public forum - not a niche community of developers. On the other hand, if they wanted to incorporate new features or contract out some good developers, they are in the right place.
I don't doubt they (samsung) aren't doing this out of the goodness of their collective hearts, but if this is how changes are effected, I'll take it.

Totally agree with you Kubernetes, people think they'll get something done by impressing their rage upon the messenger. So far all of his threads are closed due to people completely ignoring the instructions and asking for release dates and trolling samsung saying they're gonna tell all their friends to never buy samsung, it's really disgusting if you ask me. I dunno about you guys but I'm the only person I know who cares if samsung releases timely updates...everyone else I know is NOT a power user and could not care less about updates. I think if outsiders say, higher ups in Samsung, were to read those threads they'd see more hostility and uncooperativeness
than a community that's ready to work with them.
Main reason I dislike all the people flaming him is because as soon as I try to ask a legit question, the thread is already locked. Trolls are blaring out people who want to handle this like adults.

Please don't try to put words in my mouth unless you intend to become my wife. I'm a dominating top so consider the job well before volunteering.
At no point did I say that John was lying, yet you say very directly that I did.
Exactly whom is the lier ?

Well honestly the way he was treated was bad, but again that is the way Samsung has treated us from the beginning, but I do have to say something about this section (vibrant) As a whole we fight with each other too much. Just take a look at the 2.2.1 rom release in the development section. It just one big ***** fest, and it is stupid. We need to focus on fixing and making our phones better not our EGO's. If we as a community can't get our collective a$$ together we will just fade away and kill our developer support. There is too much drama. One group doesn't want to work with another so on so forth. If we pooled our collective resources then we could be great.

n2ishun said:
This rep was hosed due to his own lack of knowledge, nothing else.
He started off by filling the cool-aid cups and passing them around expecting everyone to drink freely.
"Hi, I'm SamsungJohn and I have some REALLY BIG things for everyone here"
*I'll wisely not mention that I can't answer questions about hardware or software and in fact I can't really answer a single question anyone has*
It was Samsung corporate in damage control mode,NOTHING ELSE.
Funk dem. Do they think everyone is so stupid they cannot see thru this BS ?
I honestly do feel sorry for John getting thrown to the sharks by his employer, but I know for a damn fact it could have been handled with tact and finesse.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It Is damage control, but that said, they are (cause they recognize not to do so is suicide) reaching out, but the teaser is just a tactic to buy more time.
I am in the corporate world and I am Senior Exec, So this is just normal proceedings from a business to engage - delay and then reveal what they really are going to offer. That tactic is done cause it lowers expectations so if it is not enough you do not end up with a mass rebellion on your hands. Samsung John is a Big Boy, he knows the rules and expects to hear both happy and hostile comments and takes them like a grain of salt. So there is nothing for us to be ashamed of, he asked for our opinion and comments and we gave them to him.... the good, the bad and the ugly
One other note SamsungJohn released the exact same email in every Galaxy forum, so do not be wooed into thinking he was talking directly to us. It was can statement and a canned response/followup.

This might be his big announcement
I have been a user here four about 2 months and have never posted because I know how to search and I don't want to deal with the egos and the flaming, but this was posted on another forum (has nothing to do with phones) that I use.
"I talked with someone in STA (the division of the company that focuses on mobile devices), no plans at least in the immediate future are int he works for OTA updates on the Galaxy S 3G lineup. Which has me pissed. (edit: by "immediate future" I mean we're looking at like March for the mandatory OTA update, which leads me to think this hardwire update is just a beta)
Even as an employee, I can guarantee this is going to be my last Samsung phone. I STILL don't have Froyo because of all the hoops I had to go through in addition to running errands today.
Why you're forced to use a completely different connection mode, when virtually every other phone on the market can update either OTA or with a standard USB mount point, then Kies refused to connect until I turned on USB debugging, turned off USB debugging, and restarted Kies.
Now? With 88% battery life, I need to let it charge to 100% just to even start downloading the update."
Idid not include a link since it is private forum and the guy has a job he would probably like to keep. This was posted last month when the Kies update came out.
With that said it would still be nice to work with samsung, what may come from it might not be the holy grail, but at least something may come from it.

I find alarming that a lot of people in these threads think of Samsung as some sort of benefactor. An overlord that we must strive to please or else face the consequences. That is the exact opposite of what it should be.
We don't need to please them with diplomacy as if we owe them something. They simply have to treat us like clients and thats the end of that.
I can't believe some of you feel that we must appease a paid employee and thank him for doing what he is being paid to do. What is he gonna do, quit his job because the whole XDA collective is not getting on its knees for him.
An advice to Samsung, and SamsungJohn: stop talking, and start acting. A good start would have been a post saying: "Hi, I'm a representative from Samsung. Here's a source code and some other tools you guys might find useful FOR IMPROVING OUR PRODUCT. THANK YOU!"

Kubernetes said:
This is the first time ever, AFAIK, that a handset manufacturer has reached out directly to the XDA community. Maybe it's all smoke and mirrors, who knows, but we won't see anything if we just reject their attempts out of hand.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
that. right. there.

Mannymal said:
I find alarming that a lot of people in these threads think of Samsung as some sort of benefactor. An overlord that we must strive to please or else face the consequences. That is the exact opposite of what it should be.
We don't need to please them with diplomacy as if we owe them something. They simply have to treat us like clients and thats the end of that.
I can't believe some of you feel that we must appease a paid employee and thank him for doing what he is being paid to do. What is he gonna do, quit his job because the whole XDA collective is not getting on its knees for him.
An advice to Samsung, and SamsungJohn: stop talking, and start acting. A good start would have been a post saying: "Hi, I'm a representative from Samsung. Here's a source code and some other tools you guys might find useful FOR IMPROVING OUR PRODUCT. THANK YOU!"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Jesus that's myopic. Samsung doesn't need anything from us, we're just a tiny minority of people who have bought their phones. They clearly think there's something to be gained from forming relationships with devs, which is why SamsungJohn is here and not Android Central or a more consumer oriented site.
You want source? Great, I'm sure that's what Krylon and Supercurio are telling them. Like adults. And I'm sure they're also explaining how timely source release can benefit Samsung as well, instead of demanding it or crying about how we're owed better support.
Because in the end, he doesn't have to be here and Samsung doesn't have to do jack about helping XDA because they'll still sell a ****-ton of phones regardless. If you can't understand that there are things we want from Samsung and it's not "appeasement" to try to get them, I have no words for you. It's not like we're holding all the cards and some horrible fate will befall Samsung if they decide this is too much of a headache.

NEVER BUY A HONOR PHONE - heres why.

In the beginning I would like to present you my device and experience with Huawei, I am a smartphone geek and I had many devices in my life, and the most sentimental hate I have about is Huawei, I bought my favorite Honor 7, 2-3 months after it was released, Huawei was something new for me because in those days the "flagship" Hisilicon kirin 935 in 2015-16 was cool and new, not to mention fast charging, ar blaster (remote control), 20 Mpix camera with HDR and slow-motion recording at 60fps, revolutionary thermal construction, "Hey Honor" head control, audio + Hi-Fi, several annual updates of new functions and Android from version 5.0-6.0 until ... until the moment Huawei shoves its "sales system" of new devices, in previous device brands in which I sat I had an impression that my device is "on time" but in Huawei is quite the opposite and here it gets worse. Users of Honor 7 know that the last update of Honor 7 was in November 2017. (version B396). In brief, I will tell you one thing: Huawei gives a fu** about us, even if Ren Zhengfei is reading this, let him understand that we are awake. Every device that you release and is supported until the end of "materialistic" two years, put our Honors in the trash can which means that since the last update the device gets, youre phone starts to get boring and older which brings you to buy a new Huawei, but wait a minute, I just bought my honor 2 years ago and it's not good anymore? Naturally, we look at the internet why we do not get new upgrades where everything becomes clear the processors produced for Huawei are specially designed to work only for two years! Then Huawei tells us that you need a better version of Open Gl / CL and that the new EMUI will not go ble ble ble. And then we understand such a device with pseudo-strong peripherals it loses support after two years and spending hunderds of $ isnt worth it. So the question to Huawei is why you are making the same mistakes, why you are blocking the bootloader, and why EMUI is so limited, after all EMUI can compete with MIUI or Samsung Experience, just open up for people, update our devices more often so that they do not retire at the age of 2 years. It's all artificial. For now it is the silence before the storm because I hope that people who have reached to the end of this message will understand that people who purchased Honor 7,8,9,10 will be disappointed and how they will be treated after the warranty period and the end of Android support, where unfortunately the company counts money and not users.

Honor/ Huawei are only good for hardware, the software experience is not that good, plus their partnership with XDA was just a publicity stunt, I had thought that there would be more development for the Honor devices but it's just false promises, I would have never purchased Honor 8 if I knew that there won't be any ROM development for the device

LMFAO. Wow. You posted a whining session. Good for you. Hate to break it to you but Huawei is no different than any other company. Samsung, Apple, Sony. All the same. How about you go build your own smartphone so you can find something else to complain about. Claiming that Huawei specifically design their phones to only last two years. Are you daft?! Here's a little secret for you bud, the head of honor USA (his name's Chris) has been getting all kinds of responses from customers regarding the bootloader issue, but you wouldn't know that since you are so high up on your horse. So while you might think Huawei is some evil corporation designing a grand scheme to screw people, you couldn't be farther from the truth. People like you are exactly the reason XDA has gone downhill and it's sad.

agraceful said:
LMFAO. Wow. You posted a whining session. Good for you. Hate to break it to you but Huawei is no different than any other company. Samsung, Apple, Sony. All the same. How about you go build your own smartphone so you can find something else to complain about. Claiming that Huawei specifically design their phones to only last two years. Are you daft?! Here's a little secret for you bud, the head of honor USA (his name's Chris) has been getting all kinds of responses from customers regarding the bootloader issue, but you wouldn't know that since you are so high up on your horse. So while you might think Huawei is some evil corporation designing a grand scheme to screw people, you couldn't be farther from the truth. People like you are exactly the reason XDA has gone downhill and it's sad.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree with you on this, everyone on xda whines but no one does anything about it. It is an open community and anyone can make a custom rom. It doesn't take much to make an aosp rom or even a custom EMUI rom. I just don't do it because people on here piss me off. They then go on a rant session like this like we owe them something. The community has lost respect for devs we make roms and they make us look like we own the software. They request things like I am free to do what you want me to do? NO I do it out of my own time that I have spare for everyone. But when I hear people get all cry baby mode and request stuff like they want it now it disheartens me from deving at all. This is why there is no development I just make my own rom the way I like it. At least I know no one will complain and moan after.

Meemo23 said:
This is why there is no development I just make my own rom the way I like it. At least I know no one will complain and moan after.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I guess there is the option to ignore all the nonsense posts, upload your rom with no support and let people decide.
Either that or perhaps share your build scripts with those of us with some knowledge of oneplus and xperia builds, so we can build our own honor rom too
No demands intended, just trying to blag some build scripts

That's because devs aren't transparent with the users. When you just pop up with some software, of course, the users will think it's easy and takes no time. Developers are pretentious and users are ignorant. Users would have less to whine about if they actually understood what was going on half the time...That's why everyone got all this tech, but no one understands how to use it and just revert to complaining. It's only gonna get worst for devs/users down the line.
But shid, where a guide to make a custom EMUI rom? I'll make a rom for the culture.

jintrigger said:
That's because devs aren't transparent with the users. When you just pop up with some software, of course, the users will think it's easy and takes no time. Developers are pretentious and users are ignorant. Users would have less to whine about if they actually understood what was going on half the time...That's why everyone got all this tech, but no one understands how to use it and just revert to complaining. It's only gonna get worst for devs/users down the line.
But shid, where a guide to make a custom EMUI rom? I'll make a rom for the culture.
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Learning to build a ROM isn't difficult. There are literally hundreds of courses you can take, but instead 99% of users are lazy and don't care to learn. Most developers AREN'T pretentious. They simply aren't required to teach others about what they do and how they do it. That's on the user.

agraceful said:
Learning to build a ROM isn't difficult. There are literally hundreds of courses you can take, but instead 99% of users are lazy and don't care to learn. Most developers AREN'T pretentious. They simply aren't required to teach others about what they do and how they do it. That's on the user.
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How can you tell an average user that creating a rom isn't difficult? How can you determine how difficult something is to someone else? You just proved my point (considering you are a dev).....Cause that's pretentious. Sure you may be right...It's not my job as a developer to teach others how/what I do, but because development is treated as some easy to do thing we are here.
Once you understand something it's easier to appreciate it...User don't understand and if we keep giving them stuff with them understanding what they are getting you created spoiled users. I'm not saying go teach every user what a dev does, but transparency is important.

jintrigger said:
How can you tell an average user that creating a rom isn't difficult? How can you determine how difficult something is to someone else? You just proved my point (considering you are a dev).....Cause that's pretentious. Sure you may be right...It's not my job as a developer to teach others how/what I do, but because development is treated as some easy to do thing we are here.
Once you understand something it's easier to appreciate it...User don't understand and if we keep giving them stuff with them understanding what they are getting you created spoiled users. I'm not saying go teach every user what a dev does, but transparency is important.
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I say it's simple because my 11 year old can code. Learning is easy if you put in the effort. I myself, have been developing on Android since the Motorola Cliq. So, a little over 9 years. I've directed tons of people (even a few here on XDA) how to go about coding and each is now doing it on their own. It's not pretentious (that's not the right word anyway) to conclude that ANYONE can learn with dedication and time. So, say I build a ROM then go into details about what I've done. Who does that benefit if 96% of users have no clue? So then I have to go in depth and explain what's going on. That's a waste of my time which I donate. I don't get paid to work on Android. It's all for fun. When it becomes work, I stop. There is an amazing website called GitHub where most devs upload their work and you can see what they're doing. If there's something you don't understand, then you ask. You can not expect anyone to give you anything. Like I said, ANYONE can build a ROM. I thoroughly encourage you to dive into ROM building of that peaks your interest. Sadly, majority of users don't care to understand. They just want free things and immediately.

agraceful said:
I say it's simple because my 11 year old can code. Learning is easy if you put in the effort. I myself, have been developing on Android since the Motorola Cliq. So, a little over 9 years. I've directed tons of people (even a few here on XDA) how to go about coding and each is now doing it on their own. It's not pretentious (that's not the right word anyway) to conclude that ANYONE can learn with dedication and time. So, say I build a ROM then go into details about what I've done. Who does that benefit if 96% of users have no clue? So then I have to go in depth and explain what's going on. That's a waste of my time which I donate. I don't get paid to work on Android. It's all for fun. When it becomes work, I stop. There is an amazing website called GitHub where most devs upload their work and you can see what they're doing. If there's something you don't understand, then you ask. You can not expect anyone to give you anything. Like I said, ANYONE can build a ROM. I thoroughly encourage you to dive into ROM building of that peaks your interest. Sadly, majority of users don't care to understand. They just want free things and immediately.
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Transparency seems to work well enough with game developers. Like I said, seeing how something is made helps you appreciate it more. That doesn't mean a user needs to learn how to make a custom rom to appreciate the process, but we can agree to disagree on that note.
However, just because your 11 year old can develop (while awesome) doesn't make coding simple. I honestly hate when people make it seem like being a developer is just a simple and easy thing. Only a hobbyist or someone who lacks passion would make that claim. I mean I know kids who can write stories, but does that mean being an author is easy? I know kids who can draw well, but does that make being an artist easy?

jintrigger said:
Transparency seems to work well enough with game developers. Like I said, seeing how something is made helps you appreciate it more. That doesn't mean a user needs to learn how to make a custom rom to appreciate the process, but we can agree to disagree on that note.
However, just because your 11 year old can develop (while awesome) doesn't make coding simple. I honestly hate when people make it seem like being a developer is just a simple and easy thing. Only a hobbyist or someone who lacks passion would make that claim. I mean I know kids who can write stories, but does that mean being an author is easy? I know kids who can draw well, but does that make being an artist easy?
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Actually, it does. Writing a book means you're an author. Singing a song makes you a singer. These titles are often held to such a high standard that it makes no sense. If I draw a picture, I am an artist. I don't need a degree or even to have gone to an art school. Being a developer is easy. Those who view it otherwise are the ones that doubt themselves and aren't able to set realistic goals. Or again, they hold the titles to a ridiculous standard. XDA has offered courses for coding, and those are by far the simplest. Nothing is unattainable unless you yourself put that doubt in your mind.
Earlier, I wasn't stating that users need to learn to build ROMs to understand what's going on, so my apologies if it appeared that way. But if a user simply wants to learn the definitions of certain words, or what a process is then that user should on his/her own look it up or ask. It's genuinely that simple. While it may take time, everything is out there and available but again, nobody wants to put in the effort.
Game developers post changelogs. 99% of Android developer do the same. Fixed this bug where blah blah blah. Same thing. But believe me when I say that there are tons of things they don't post in the changelogs because they know users aren't going to understand it and well time is money.
Back onto the whole Huawei thing though. Yes, companies can always be more transparent. That's a given. But, they don't owe that to us. They owe us absolutely nothing. While personally I'd love more transparency, it's generally not that easy to do. Maybe it costs them too much to maintain all the devices, maybe they don't have a big enough dev team. IDK. But, to go straight to Huawei is screwing us over is well.. Moronic. When we as users boot our phones up we agree to their ToS before even using the phone for the first time. Hell, soon as you purchase the phone you agree to it. It's the same with every tech company. Ok, I feel like I wrote way too much. So, I guess this will conclude it for me. It was a nice change discussing things with you. You don't see that often on the internet unfortunately. Have a great day

agraceful said:
Actually, it does. Writing a book means you're an author. Singing a song makes you a singer. These titles are often held to such a high standard that it makes no sense. If I draw a picture, I am an artist. I don't need a degree or even to have gone to an art school. Being a developer is easy. Those who view it otherwise are the ones that doubt themselves and aren't able to set realistic goals. Or again, they hold the titles to a ridiculous standard. XDA has offered courses for coding, and those are by far the simplest. Nothing is unattainable unless you yourself put that doubt in your mind.
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Yeah, I think I see your point. I feel my friend sums up it up pretty well...
"Easy" is subjective. Everything is "easy" with enough experience. It was difficult when I was starting, but I loved it so I kept going. I'm both a hobbyist and a professional."
agraceful said:
Earlier, I wasn't stating that users need to learn to build ROMs to understand what's going on, so my apologies if it appeared that way. But if a user simply wants to learn the definitions of certain words, or what a process is then that user should on his/her own look it up or ask. It's genuinely that simple. While it may take time, everything is out there and available but again, nobody wants to put in the effort.
Game developers post changelogs. 99% of Android developer do the same. Fixed this bug where blah blah blah. Same thing. But believe me when I say that there are tons of things they don't post in the changelogs because they know users aren't going to understand it and well time is money.
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Click to collapse
I guess when I really think about it, I really just want people to learn how to be inquisitive and teach themselves. I hate this lazy user era we are in...All this tech and barely anyone knows how to use it. No one benefits from it....It's aggravating.
agraceful said:
Back onto the whole Huawei thing though. Yes, companies can always be more transparent. That's a given. But, they don't owe that to us. They owe us absolutely nothing. While personally I'd love more transparency, it's generally not that easy to do. Maybe it costs them too much to maintain all the devices, maybe they don't have a big enough dev team. IDK. But, to go straight to Huawei is screwing us over is well.. Moronic. When we as users boot our phones up we agree to their ToS before even using the phone for the first time. Hell, soon as you purchase the phone you agree to it. It's the same with every tech company. Ok, I feel like I wrote way too much. So, I guess this will conclude it for me. It was a nice change discussing things with you. You don't see that often on the internet unfortunately. Have a great day
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Click to collapse
As much as I hate to say it, your right. I also enjoyed our conversation...I strive to carry out polite/constructive conversations with people on the internet. Normally I'm challenging people on their thoughts, but for once I was challenged and it made me reconsider some things. Thanks and you have a great day as well.

I have to say that if Huawei phone gets regular updates for 2 years than good fo you. My last Android phone by HTC had one update after release and that’s all. Somebody wrote here that every brand is doing the same. It’s not true. My very old iPhone 5s just got a new system like any other newer iPhones. It will get normal updates until end of iOS 11 in September 2018. 5s was released in September 2013, so 5 years of constant updates... On the other hand will you be able to live with one phone for 5 years ?
Wysłane z iPhone za pomocą Tapatalk

rumpelst said:
I have to say that if Huawei phone gets regular updates for 2 years than good fo you. My last Android phone by HTC had one update after release and that’s all. Somebody wrote here that every brand is doing the same. It’s not true. My very old iPhone 5s just got a new system like any other newer iPhones. It will get normal updates until end of iOS 11 in September 2018. 5s was released in September 2013, so 5 years of constant updates... On the other hand will you be able to live with one phone for 5 years ?
Wysłane z iPhone za pomocą Tapatalk
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I guess we have been discussing Android phones.
BTW, it has been reported that iOS 12 would support iPhone 5s.

MT2-User said:
I guess we have been discussing Android phones.
BTW, it has been reported that iOS 12 would support iPhone 5s.
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Agraceful mentioned Apple. There is a really big deference in that regard between Android and other OS’s. Windows phone were also supported for a very long time. I think the cause of the problem that people do not care if they have newest google security updates, support is not good to advertise. What is or was good to advertise are the numbers. Screen size, pixel density, processor speed, aperture of the lens. Numbers are important but more important is software and developer support after you buy phone. Htc 10 had some minor flaws which were not polished at all because they did not care... Best phone with Android I had in that regard was Asus ZenFone 2. Asus did not update Android from 5 to 6 fo a very long time but 5 was polished with a constant updates, phone had a one or two month old security patches no older. I wonder how it looks in Huawei.
Wysłane z iPhone za pomocą Tapatalk

I don't get it. They now have to update to new security patches and we have been promised Oreo and they are already testing in China.

agraceful said:
ANYONE can build a ROM
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Lol, well perhaps more people could try harder to learn, but wild generalisations don't really help anyone.
If you have family and friends in the arts or engineering etc, none of them know what a ROM actually is, nevermind to actually build one.
You are assuming a level of computing understanding that is just not as wide as you appear to believe.

Thread cleaned
It would be appreciated if you guys can lower the tone a bit. There was at first a "polite/constructive conversation" but it derailed quite fast.
Not sure if your whole conversation has something to do with the thread topic, but please stay civil, any time.
Also, if you see posts which break the rules, please just report them, don't reply in threads.
2. Member conduct.
2.1 Language: XDA is a worldwide community. As a result, what may be OK to say in your part of the world, may not be OK elsewhere. Please don't direct profanity, sexually explicit language or other offensive content toward Members or their work. Conversely, while reading posts from other members, remember that the word you find offensive may not be offensive to the writer. Tolerance is a two-way street.
..
2.3 Flaming / Lack of respect: XDA is about sharing and this does not involve virtual yelling (flaming) or rudeness. Flaming or posting with a lack of respect is unacceptable. Treat new members in the manner in which you would like to have been treated when you were a new member. When dealing with any member, provide them with guidance, advice and instructions when you can, showing them respect and courtesy. Never post in a demanding, argumentative, disrespectful or self-righteous manner.
2.4 Personal attacks, racial, political and / or religious discussions: XDA is a discussion forum about certain mobile phones. Mobile phones are not racial, political, religious or personally offensive and therefore, none of these types of discussions are permitted on XDA.
2.5 All members are expected to read and adhere to the XDA rules.
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The XDA forum rules: https://forum.xda-developers.com/announcement.php?a=81
Thank you.
Wood Man
Senior Moderator

With all that being said, I, personally, will never buy a Huawei and some other brands phone again because they simply will not let people unlock the bootloaders.
"Announcement
To provide better user experience and avoid issues caused by ROM flashing, the unlock code application service will be stopped for all products launched after 2018-5-24. For products released prior to this date, the service will be stopped 60 days after this announcement.
Thank you for your understanding. We will continue to provide you with quality services.
2018-5-24
Huawei Device Co., Ltd"
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You can find that announcement when you log in here : https://emui.huawei.com/en/unlock_detail

sold out
Updates were taking forever, so I sold out honor 8.:good: