hey all,
As all have seen in the forums, there is a beta of mango which is already running on our HD2's.
My question is:
Is it really worth to flash now or should we wait for later??
Which bugs have been registered with our devices until now?
Are they serious or only small bugs??
Thx in advance
I have noticed that several apps do not work properly on Mango. Either lagging or crashing. I reverted to nodo..
If you want to do some experiments then flash Mango now. If you need stable good work without waiting next unexpected reboot use Yuki V5.
A lot of bugs from small to big in Mango now .....
i think it's not the right place to open this thread, but, you have to try it
it has A LOT of bugs, everywhere.. in IE9, apps, etc etc etc
you can call and write sms, you have only 5 lenguages, and, not all apps work, so, if you need a stable phone, i adviced you to change to mango even if it works normally in phone functions
if you want to try the new speed, right, you can come back, sure!
so, simply you have to try if the bugs isn't big issues for you
I'm using Mango and am amazed how well it works. I encountered one real bug so far, in IE9. It doesn't seem to like Edge data networks. One other semi-bug is sometimes the links in the XDA website don't work...maybe it's just super slow loading, though.
Otherwise, all that I've tried so far works splendidly. Last night I used the Bluetooth to connect to a BT shelf speaker and it worked without a fault.
I can't say how it might work on a Euro HD2, but my T-Mobile US HD2 loves it. I also think Mango might handle video response differently for producing colors because the color reproduction on my HD2 running Mango is fantastic. I compared the display to my Focus, which runs Super AMOLED display and they are almost identical in color and the HD2 looks cleaner, crisper and has better white production than the Focus.
If you have a US HD2, go for it. I'm keeping mine because I like that much.
I have TMOUS. I did two attempts to flash this very green Mango, but couldn't live with it well. When I flashed and used mango i tell myself it is just small problem soon will be OK... bug... then another bug.... then during phone book loading to blueant reboot.... another reboot.... then apps don't work... so many more... So i can say my phone absolutly doesn't like Green Mango.
I finaly say - No can't live with it when perfectly working in all aspects NODO present. Went back to V5 NODO and so happy now again!!! But will wait of course final mango.
DO NOT FLASH HD2 MANGO!
Not worth it at all. It's all way to buggy and slow. It's almost like when android was first discovered onto our Leo devices- slow and cruddy but definitely has a future!
Thx for your feedback guys
I will not flash it, will wait for the final version
Have a nice weekend!!
Do not flash hd2 mango!
Finalforce1111 said:
Thx for your feedback guys
I will not flash it, will wait for the final version
Have a nice weekend!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good choice. It was fun to experiment with, just to check it out. But as others have said it's waaaaayyy too buggy. 3rd party apps don't work, even some official apps like ebay don't work. Proximity sensor in-call doesn't work, so lots of hanging up or putting people on hold with cheeks, lol. IE9 is horrible in this build. Only Facebook integration works in the OS, etc. But I can tell you when it is done & we get a fully functional mango rom, it will be amazing!!!
JonnieLasVegas said:
Good choice. It was fun to experiment with, just to check it out. But as others have said it's waaaaayyy too buggy. 3rd party apps don't work, even some official apps like ebay don't work. Proximity sensor in-call doesn't work, so lots of hanging up or putting people on hold with cheeks, lol. IE9 is horrible in this build. Only Facebook integration works in the OS, etc. But I can tell you when it is done & we get a fully functional mango rom, it will be amazing!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hmmm...you maybe should try the one from elfinlazz. It works splendidly and I just checked the PS and it worked like normal WP7. I did check the eBay app and couldn't get it to work. But it seems this elfinlazz ROM is closer to an actual WP7 than any of them.
MartyLK said:
Hmmm...you maybe should try the one from elfinlazz. It works splendidly and I just checked the PS and it worked like normal WP7. I did check the eBay app and couldn't get it to work. But it seems this elfinlazz ROM is closer to an actual WP7 than any of them.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's the only one I've used. I would constantly hang up & put people on hold while talking on the phone.
JonnieLasVegas said:
That's the only one I've used. I would constantly hang up & put people on hold while talking on the phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You might investigate your card then, because they can cause some issues. Mine is Sandisk class 4 16GB
MartyLK said:
You might investigate your card then, because they can cause some issues. Mine is Sandisk class 4 16GB
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'll check, but it's never given me issues with any other WP7 roms. And I also have the class 4 sandisk 16 gb. But now that I'm back on Yuki's NoDo, it's running perfect again. Appreciate the help though.
Finalforce1111 said:
hey all,
As all have seen in the forums, there is a beta of mango which is already running on our HD2's.
My question is:
Is it really worth to flash now or should we wait for later??
Which bugs have been registered with our devices until now?
Are they serious or only small bugs??
Thx in advance
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is the dev forum not Q&A, go to Q&A/General if you wish to create topics like this.
giorgib said:
Do not flash hd2 mango!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And why not?
I have the unlocked Mango (with market) and it runs great, Haven't come across any big bugs and battery last 24+ hours most of time unless doing heavy calling/gaming.
TheATHEiST said:
This is the dev forum not Q&A, go to Q&A/General if you wish to create topics like this.
And why not?
I have the unlocked Mango (with market) and it runs great, Haven't come across any big bugs and battery last 24+ hours most of time unless doing heavy calling/gaming.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I gotta agree. Mine works excellently and after doing the camera trick, battery life is much, much better. This is a ROM I want to make permanent.
I want ripe mango
TheATHEiST said:
This is the dev forum not Q&A, go to Q&A/General if you wish to create topics like this.
And why not?
I have the unlocked Mango (with market) and it runs great, Haven't come across any big bugs and battery last 24+ hours most of time unless doing heavy calling/gaming.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wish I had that kind of luck with the battery! Without any use it would last around 3 hours. With average use I'd get an hour of battery. Tried the cam trick & changing radio, but nothing wild improve it for me. Guess it's luck of the draw when it comes to battery & stability with the green mango roms. Still it does have some awesome new features. Can't wait for a ripe one.
Sent from my HD2 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
•Would• not wild. Won't let me edit on the app right now for some reason.
Sent from my HD2 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
Hi there,
Is it still buggy right now ?
I have a plan to upgrade from 6.5 to 7.5
thanks,
Ronald
Related
Just a quickie to share my joy at my HTC HD2 that I now feel is the phone that should have been released way back 4 weeks ago.
I've recently upgraded to ROM 1.61 and the camera is fixed, the SMS sending issue has disappeared [both fixes have been released recently], its phenomenally fast, screen lock is working, installed programmes are great, various tweaks and cabs supplied by the fab community here work flawlessly [the ones I've installed anyway lol]
It seems to be fitting together quite nicely now.
Fingers crossed for an exciting future with my HD2!!!!!!
All those who agree say, "aye"!
I totally agree. Those people whining don't know what they are talking about, this device is the best of its kind out there, nothing can come close for me. I'm using a swype keyboard on my hd2 to write this message which has to be the best keyboard on a mobile device. It's just blazing fast to type with while looking so cool at the same time.
AYE!! (Although waiting for a decent radio)
ijob said:
Just a quickie to share my joy at my HTC HD2 that I now feel is the phone that should have been released way back 4 weeks ago.
I've recently upgraded to ROM 1.61 and the camera is fixed, the SMS sending issue has disappeared [both fixes have been released recently], its phenomenally fast, screen lock is working, installed programmes are great, various tweaks and cabs supplied by the fab community here work flawlessly [the ones I've installed anyway lol]
It seems to be fitting together quite nicely now.
Fingers crossed for an exciting future with my HD2!!!!!!
All those who agree say, "aye"!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i would say the sms problem ( time to load all the messages ) is still not fixed, right?
ijob said:
Just a quickie to share my joy at my HTC HD2 that I now feel is the phone that should have been released way back 4 weeks ago.
I've recently upgraded to ROM 1.61 and the camera is fixed, the SMS sending issue has disappeared [both fixes have been released recently], its phenomenally fast, screen lock is working, installed programmes are great, various tweaks and cabs supplied by the fab community here work flawlessly [the ones I've installed anyway lol]
It seems to be fitting together quite nicely now.
Fingers crossed for an exciting future with my HD2!!!!!!
All those who agree say, "aye"!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Aye, man!
(Even though it would have been great to have HD2 at the 1.61 level from the very beginning. Wishful thinking, ain´t it? And I do still have the feeling that there is quite some room for improvements...)
also downloaded the new firmware. phone is running great now, battery life also seems much better than before. also just installed that swype keyboard. amazing!
I say nothing is fixed until there is an official release. HTC can't expect their customers to download rom's from XDA to get a device that works.
I agree, the 1.61 firmware is tops!
are you sure that you're finally satisfied?
You're not going to mention on how the edge of glass screen is too sharp and might cut your delicate fingers?
I'm glad you're enjoying it
Question is, when will 1.61 be officially released?! I'm a bit of a wuss, so i'm going to wait rather than install the leaked version. Can't wait for it though! Just to set my mind at ease regarding sms really. I haven't experienced the bug yet, but knowing it's been pre-emptively fixed (at least for me) would be lovely
_tangent said:
Question is, when will 1.61 be officially released?! I'm a bit of a wuss, so i'm going to wait rather than install the leaked version. Can't wait for it though! Just to set my mind at ease regarding sms really. I haven't experienced the bug yet, but knowing it's been pre-emptively fixed (at least for me) would be lovely
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Probably not too long, it was little over a week for the leaked 1.48 ROM to become official. If you're looking for a carrier specific ROM though expect to wait a little longer.
This is just my personal opinion though, I cannot vouch for HTC's time-scale.
agvar said:
I say nothing is fixed until there is an official release. HTC can't expect their customers to download rom's from XDA to get a device that works.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
100% agree!!!
If most ppl are really positive about it. They should release it officially. It is very strange to see 2 rom updates in couple weeks. Does HTC do that often?
Still very positive HTC is working hard to make it better.
Well i fully expect there to be bugs just like any new OS on any new device. The only thing is it take things like XDA to be beta testers, Android was beta for ages before there was even a device available for it.
omneity said:
Probably not too long, it was little over a week for the leaked 1.48 ROM to become official. If you're looking for a carrier specific ROM though expect to wait a little longer.
This is just my personal opinion though, I cannot vouch for HTC's time-scale.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nah not looking for a carrier specific one. I think my HTC is stock anyway. It's on t-mobile, but i bought it from mobiles.co.uk. The youtube ap is still there, along with everything else that should be, and there's zero branding.
I'll keep my fingers crossed
+1 to being a little wussy on the leaked ROM update
I've only owned my HD2 for about...4 days now, so still a little scared.
but i will admit i do see some annoying bugs with the keyboard and lock screen. So far pretty good with SMS though, nothing to report there.
Just curious (and i'm a noob), when HTC officially releases the 1.61 update, how do you go about doing it?
I woudlnt expect it to have tons of steps like XDA informs you to switch ROMS does it?
is it a simple double click , wait and update?
Also, will it clear everything (reset registry, delete all programs)?
Cause ive done a bunch of registry tweaks and installed various programs, so i guess that might be a bit frustrating..
I've not had any particular problems with mine in the few days I've had it, (and I really love it!) so is there likely to be any benefit to me to upgrade from 1.48 to 1.61?
Happy to do it if there is, but I don't want to have to start from scratch unless it offers some genuine fixes/improvements rather than just some subjective/perceived ones.
The last comments I'd been reading about 1.61 the other day seemed to indicate that it didn't really do/change anything but is that incorrect? If that's wrong then I don't mind flashing.
My only real complaints are this bloody problem with music stopping when you lock it (coreplayer), and the stupid hardware buttons causing you to lose phone calls when you take the phone out of your pocket to answer a call. It's infuriating.
I've got different screenlock related apps but am having a spot of bother finding one that simply locks the hardware keys only while the phone is on standby (ie not locked while awake), or more probably getting the correct setup on one of these apps to achieve that. Each time I've tried so far I've resulted in a phone that won't unlock at all, due to bing unsure of correct settings.
Anyone with clear & precise settings for a lock appthat will do this and not mess with loads of other stuff would be VERY welcome to comment!
@Cret : Well there is somehow a solution for this. You might want to try this out (unlesss you havent already read it...)
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=596037&page=6
Have a look at Post 60
Greets
Bakedbread said:
+1 to being a little wussy on the leaked ROM update
I wouldn't expect it to have tons of steps like XDA informs you to switch ROMS does it?
is it a simple double click , wait and update?
Also, will it clear everything (reset registry, delete all programs)?
Cause ive done a bunch of registry tweaks and installed various programs, so i guess that might be a bit frustrating..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, a ROM upgrade is basically a click, wait and update. It also wipes the entire phone and resets registry settings.
Some of the radio-only ROM updates keep all settings intact but for if you're moving from 1.48 to 1.61, expect to have the phone wiped (I've never lost anything on the SD card during a ROM upgrade but most experts recommend to pull it out before you update.
That said - all is not lost for you. You can backup your contacts, calendar. SMS and other PIM data using "PIM Backup". This is a dummy proof program so don't hesitate to use it.
You can also restore your registry, HTC Sense settings and progs using "Sashimi" but I wouldn't recommend that if you're a noob. Then again, there's probably no better way to learn about the guts of your phone then slowly working through the "tons of steps" to get Sashimi to work!
When is 1.61 officially being released..........any idea ???
Anyone seen this thread in the polaris forum.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=625200
They claim to have working ROM to flash directly to NAND for a few devices. (Not Blackstone though) So can a Android Blackstone ROM be far out?
to be honest this flash is pretty pointless until android has got rid of the bug that keeps causing it not to wake up because once thats fixed it will be stable enough to use as a rom but for the moment there not much point in it except for proof of concept
Yes, but this seems like a HUGE move forward. Some have said there would never be a flashable ROM for Android on WinMo phones, or at least a long time out.
slaming said:
to be honest this flash is pretty pointless until android has got rid of the bug that keeps causing it not to wake up because once thats fixed it will be stable enough to use as a rom but for the moment there not much point in it except for proof of concept
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's far from pointless, it's now the way forward for the kaiser, polaris and vogue Android users, yes it's still in development, yes there are still issues, but it's yet another step to a single flashable nbh based system for ROM installation, thanks to this method we now have working gps, wifi, sleep, lower battery drain and faster systems than we did 2 months ago.
Yes there is still a lot of work to be done, but the progress over the last months has been outstanding.
Don't know if anyone is working on a Nand flashable installer for the Blackstone or not, but I think it's only a matter of time.
zenity said:
It's far from pointless, it's now the way forward for the kaiser, polaris and vogue Android users, yes it's still in development, yes there are still issues, but it's yet another step to a single flashable nbh based system for ROM installation, thanks to this method we now have working gps, wifi, sleep, lower battery drain and faster systems than we did 2 months ago.
Yes there is still a lot of work to be done, but the progress over the last months has been outstanding.
Don't know if anyone is working on a Nand flashable installer for the Blackstone or not, but I think it's only a matter of time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
if like you said sleep is working it is worth flashing, i suppose i am constantly using android and am reseting every time it crashes but for some users this isn't viable at all
It's still experimental, I use it flashed for experimenting with, but it's still not stable enough for the average user, i carry an sd with a rom image if i really need to reflash back to winmo.
however it's in active development, and is getting more useable all the time.
zenity said:
It's still experimental, I use it flashed for experimenting with, but it's still not stable enough for the average user, i carry an sd with a rom image if i really need to reflash back to winmo.
however it's in active development, and is getting more useable all the time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
this is really really exciting stuff how long do you think until this will be availible for the average user and if you need some more testers for this shot me a pm on how to do this and i will be more than willing
just been reading through that thread and by the looks of this flashing it onto your device seems to be much more stable people have been able to et gps working, but i'm confused whats the difference between a nand flash and a normal flash because from what i've been reading it seems as if you have to flash something then do the rest on your device. but i am looking into this and when i understand it, if its possible (with a few mods) i will flash on to touch hd, but from what i understand atm it doesn't seem possible its all just waiting for the devs atm
com'on theres gotta be some dev out there working on this is so please contact me i wonna help.
Ive heard by a friend that they have sucsessfully flased a iPhone with android. Can anyone confirm this? This is all i could find using our friend google
la3bna said:
Ive heard by a friend that they have sucsessfully flased a iPhone with android. Can anyone confirm this? This is all i could find using our friend google
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
this wouldn't surprise me much but would also surprise me as well at the same time firstly due to the fact that android is taking over iphone os very rapidly and in my opinion for at least me i think it is far superior due to editabiltyconfused and things like that but i would be a bit surprised as this is apple and they really do lock there devices down alot, i mean i am typing this from a mac and i love it and i personally have never need windows on it and will never need it but it kinda seems quite unlikely if there aren't any videos or anything on youtube.
guys/gals do not upgrade you HD2 with a new software, it make it instable... many people have been reported issues with the phone, that they never had before.... so do yourself a favor don't do it! i did it and now i can listen to music it will show the tittle but it wont play it.. any advice?? thanks
If you have only just upgraded the software and you have a lot of songs, the song wont play untill it fully indexes all the files, give it some time and it will work.
Flash a custom rom for better stability
Give some details like witch ROM version causing this problems.
i did the software upgrade from t-mo usa
FRANQ_23_PL said:
Give some details like witch ROM version causing this problems.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
rom: 2.13.531.1 os version: 5.2.21892
Where you find that version? I have latest ROM 1.66 WWE for Europe. I know is newer - 1.72.xxx but for Taiwan. Maybe your rom is not official?
he's talking about the US tmobile ROM that was pulled for not working.
The only problem I've got is the on screen phone buttons won't work during a phone call... real pain no pressing one!
Tap & slide makes the screen buttons work! SOOO... I have no problems now! I understand there are problems if you have purchased one of the preloaded games. However, they do warn you ahead of time.
official from t-mo usa. they just pull it off from the web site,
FRANQ_23_PL said:
Where you find that version? I have latest ROM 1.66 WWE for Europe. I know is newer - 1.72.xxx but for Taiwan. Maybe your rom is not official?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
official from t-mo usa. they just pull it off from the web site I will keep you guys informed as soon as the new release is posted.
Well I can honestly say that I have had absolutely no problems with this update! I have read all the stories about issues with the 2.13 update like weaker signal and screen sensitivity but everything couldn't be better! Screen works great if not better. Signal has somewhat improved. I used too have a problem with the native music player but now it works perfectly!
This update couldn't have come at a better time cause I was near returning this phone. The one thing i hated about this phone was that the swype didn't work the way i thought it would. It was actually one of the reasons i wanted to get it! It's so much better now, that I have written this whole reply on my hd2 using swype!
So i guess it could be device dependent or maybe it could be a bad download that you got. Try to download it again or from another source. I got mine here on xda but i forgot from which thread! Well i hope you get it ironed out cause the HD2 is a really great phone with so much potential!
i just bought my phone a week ago and i came with rom: 2.13.531.1 os version: 5.2.21892. and i cant even make it a day without the battery dying. what can i do to run longer? and the sms seems to lag just a lil bit.
The36thChamber said:
i just bought my phone a week ago and i came with rom: 2.13.531.1 os version: 5.2.21892. and i cant even make it a day without the battery dying. what can i do to run longer? and the sms seems to lag just a lil bit.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm sorry you're having problems! I've had an opposite experience - better battery and more stable. Check the forum for battery saving advice... the best of which is turn off automatic backlight!
Mine got more stable as well with the update, my battery lasted about a day of pretty good usage so I wont complain. Light usage is about a day and a half / 2 days tops.
My only complaint is the less sensitive screen.
well i read that an update got pulled about a week ago and thats when i got my phone, but i talked to tmobile and they said they have put it back up so im goin to update as soon as i get a chance.
only reason it was pulled from the official upgrade site was lack of bandwidth....it's back up now and for those of you who are running stock roms, i HIGHLY suggest upgrading it will increase the device stability considerably, also it will fix some reception issues. overall highly recommended.
You Know... they ought to change the name of this thread.
Hey guys!
I haven't been on in quite a bit.
I was browsing through some of the custom WP7 roms, and couldn't really find an answer to my question.
I'm using the original WP7 on my HD2. It's the one DFT released... The first WP7 rom for the HD2.
My question is this:
Has the camera been fixed in any of the newer ROMS?
I have no complaints with the original build other than the camera not working very well. Even shooting videos gives me focus problems.
Oh, and one other thing: My Zune music is always set to shuffle now. Can't seem to correct it.
Anyway, sorry if this has been asked and covered before. I just haven't been on the forums in a month or so.
This software works fine with the camera. Use it.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=942605
spgi said:
This software works fine with the camera. Use it.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=942605
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for the link. I'll give it a try.
Any idea why my Zune music won't stop shuffling?
nova hands said:
Hey guys!
I haven't been on in quite a bit.
I was browsing through some of the custom WP7 roms, and couldn't really find an answer to my question.
I'm using the original WP7 on my HD2. It's the one DFT released... The first WP7 rom for the HD2.
My question is this:
Has the camera been fixed in any of the newer ROMS?
I have no complaints with the original build other than the camera not working very well. Even shooting videos gives me focus problems.
Oh, and one other thing: My Zune music is always set to shuffle now. Can't seem to correct it.
Anyway, sorry if this has been asked and covered before. I just haven't been on the forums in a month or so.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
DOnt know about zune im afraid, doesnt happen to me....as for the camera, teh link supplied above is fine for most things, its not very intigrated but you cant have everything!
as for a fix, nope, and unlikely
as for the ROMs, they are all the same ROM, there is no development branchs available, and there are no tools available to build a full ROM yourself, dont expect anything like the amount of modding available to WM6 systems. its also unlikely we will get more compatible drivers for our device since its now quite old
personally, i think its very much a case of, you get what you pay for, if you want better then your going to need to spend some more cash an buy a WP7 device.
dazza9075 said:
DOnt know about zune im afraid, doesnt happen to me....as for the camera, teh link supplied above is fine for most things, its not very intigrated but you cant have everything!
as for a fix, nope, and unlikely
as for the ROMs, they are all the same ROM, there is no development branchs available, and there are no tools available to build a full ROM yourself, dont expect anything like the amount of modding available to WM6 systems. its also unlikely we will get more compatible drivers for our device since its now quite old
personally, i think its very much a case of, you get what you pay for, if you want better then your going to need to spend some more cash an buy a WP7 device.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The ROM really works great. I have no complaints with it. Just seeing if there had been any progress with the camera, that's all.
This Zune shuffling thing is baffling me. I distinctly remember seeing something about it awhile back, but I can't find anything in the forums about it.
One day all my music played normally, and the next, it will only shuffle. Strange indeed.
Now I want to know what the people on xda have to say
Have tested a lot of different roms with wp7 and wonder about different issues!
capable ScanDisk
capable WPDeviceManage
Quite simply the newest and best that is stable
(The ones I've had have always said that ScanDisk memory is faulty)
Sincerely Momme
Not right place for this questions....
mommiie said:
Now I want to know what the people on xda have to say
Have tested a lot of different roms with wp7 and wonder about different issues!
capable ScanDisk
capable WPDeviceManage
Quite simply the newest and best that is stable
(The ones I've had have always said that ScanDisk memory is faulty)
Sincerely Momme
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hmm, you may wish to consider giving your threads title a name that actually hints at what your asking...
anyhow, i assume you mean SANDISK, rather than scandisk? if so then there is no way of knowing if any card will work, its luck, get a class 2 or 4 card and you stand a better chance of it working but other than that its luck, dont believe there is a list but for everyone one that says that card works fine ill show you another that has had issues
WPDM actually works fine, the trick it loading it up, connect it, turn off zune, load touch experience on the phone, run WPDM on the PC, it might take a couple of attempts, make sure your firewall is allowing the connections.
best ROM? well thats a bit debatable, i would say Yukis V5 is the best NODO, its super quick and solid as a rock, I gave up with the green Mango ROMs because personally they are not ready for everyday use, thats my opinion however, others will disagree