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Hi, Iam going through the motions of thinking about upgrading my Touch HD again, at present it is pretty much coming down to video playback.
I would be grateful if someone could download this and see how it runs on the HD2 using coreplayer, it currently pretty much wont run at all on my HD.
Thanks
http://download.bethsoft.com/trailers/fallout3/MothershipZeta-x264-6500-HD.mp4
i never was able to get coreplayer to work on my hd2, but i will say the built-in video player plays my ripped dvd mp4 files very well, with such fluidity that i dont need or want coreplayer. the only problem with the native player is the video & audio are often not perfectly synchronized, but its never bad, just barely noticeable.
i downloaded your test mp4 file, but the native player wont show the video, only the audio
all in all, the hd2 is lightyears ahead of the hd in performance. i use duttys latest 6.5.x rom, ver 23544, and with chainfires video driver, everything is perfectly fluid qnd quick. i tried a 23542 rom on my old hd and together with manila 2.5, its just too much, and brings the poor hd to its knees, and it crawls very slowly
hope this helps... if you live in the usa, get a telstra 3g model. you wont be disappointed!
It struggles a lot in TCPMP (shows possibly one frame a second) and doesn't play in Album at all.
hmm, this is not good at all, I expected no problems at all, it could be the codec though, i dont want to re-encode everthing like you have to do in the touch HD so its looks like the HD2 isnt such a good buy after all - for video anyway.
its proably the high bitrate causing the issue
Richy99 said:
its proably the high bitrate causing the issue
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Click to collapse
Yeah, I'd like to see a mobile device properly decode 6.4mbp/s + audio!
video is as below, the res is pretty much perfect for the HD2, low bit rate as well, this should fly being an MP4? - it is x264 though...
input bit rate 704 kb/sec
codec AVc1
48000 stereo
res 864x460
frame rate 29.9700
Plays perfectly on my 3gs. Absolutely smooth with zero frame drop.
But then who wants a toy, right? ;-)
With all due respect, while I completely understand why you would want to play back high definition video clips on a phone, it's simply not going to happen; particularly not on a phone manufactured by HTC, who have a long history of shipping phones which lack adequate hardware-acceleration for video playback. It's possible you might get adequate performance from either an Acer NeoTouch or a Toshiba TG01 - the latter (and I think also the former, though I'm not certain) ships with a hardware-accelerated version of CorePlayer which is very good; but I wouldn't be at all sure even with them.
A sensible resolution and bit-rate would be 800x480 (i.e. the resolution of the screen) and a bit-rate of 2000kb/s variable, with CABAC enabled. (See, for example, the videos attached to this post, which look very good indeed on the HD2). You will not lose any playback quality re-encoding like this, though of course there is the inconvenience of transcoding.
Shasarak said:
With all due respect, while I completely understand why you would want to play back high definition video clips on a phone, it's simply not going to happen; particularly not on a phone manufactured by HTC, who have a long history of shipping phones which lack adequate hardware-acceleration for video playback. It's possible you might get adequate performance from either an Acer NeoTouch or a Toshiba TG01 - the latter (and I think also the former, though I'm not certain) ships with a hardware-accelerated version of CorePlayer which is very good; but I wouldn't be at all sure even with them.
A sensible resolution and bit-rate would be 800x480 (i.e. the resolution of the screen) and a bit-rate of 2000kb/s variable, with CABAC enabled. (See, for example, the videos attached to this post, which look very good indeed on the HD2). You will not lose any playback quality re-encoding like this, though of course there is the inconvenience of transcoding.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The movie I posted is at a sensible resolution with a low bit rate, see my specs above.
Just a friendly warning to anyone thinking of dl'ing this on their mob, its an 80 meg file. Be sure and save it to sd card!
stoolzo said:
The movie I posted is at a sensible resolution with a low bit rate, see my specs above.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm sorry, but 1280x720 is not a "sensible resolution" in this context.
EDIT: Is it possible that the link you posted doesn't link to the video that you think it links to?
stoolzo said:
video is as below, the res is pretty much perfect for the HD2, low bit rate as well, this should fly being an MP4? - it is x264 though...
input bit rate 704 kb/sec
codec AVc1
48000 stereo
res 864x460
frame rate 29.9700
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wrong video! Your download is 1280x720
That video doesn't work but:
input bit rate 704 kb/sec
codec AVc1
48000 stereo
res 864x460
frame rate 29.9700
works perfectly!
eaglesteve said:
Plays perfectly on my 3gs. Absolutely smooth with zero frame drop.
But then who wants a toy, right? ;-)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't believe you!! iPhone is a toy and plays only video from iTunes, no 1280x720 because iTunes converts the video!!
stoolzo said:
The movie I posted is at a sensible resolution with a low bit rate, see my specs above.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your specs are wrong. This is what mediainfo says of your file
http://download.bethsoft.com/trailers/fallout3/MothershipZeta-x264-6500-HD.mp4
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : [email protected]
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 5 frames
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 1mn 42s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 6 406 Kbps
Width : 1 280 pixels
Height : 720 pixels
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
sm3rtlag3l said:
I don't believe you!! iPhone is a toy and plays only video from iTunes, no 1280x720 because iTunes converts the video!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nope. Just have to click on the link. That brings up a screen that asked me if I want to play it direct or to download it first. In either way, it plays smoothly.
Of course it is impossible for a toy to be so good, right?
I've read articles in which the authors used an iPhone 3GS to play back 1080p video with a bit-rate of 30Mb/s - this isn't exactly stable, but it does play. 720p video would be very easy.
Shasarak; said:
I've read articles in which the authors used an iPhone 3GS to play back 1080p video with a bit-rate of 30Mb/s - this isn't exactly stable, but it does play. 720p video would be very easy.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why not just go to a Telco or apple store to try it out yourselves? There're just too much false information about what an iPhone can or cannot do around. Lots of it on this forum.
Don't know about what you have read, but mine plays THIS video smoothly. If you click on the link and let it stream, then you may need to wait for enough of the 80+ mb to be downloaded before the player starts. If your phone is JB you have the additional option of downloading it first before playing. Video picture is sharp, completely free if pauses, jitter, or frame drops, and sound completely in sync.
Cheers.
Edit: Thought I might as well video record how well it plays for your guys.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAGqKYlSnHA
Sorry about the quality of the recording as I was using an old camera to do the recording rather than a proper video recorder, but still you will be able to see how smoothly it plays. Please blame my camera, not my iPhone for the poor video resolution. ;-)
eaglesteve said:
Why not just go to a Telco or apple store to try it out yourselves? There're just too much false information about what an iPhone can or cannot do around. Lots of it on this forum.
Don't know about what you have read, but mine plays THIS video smoothly. If you click on the link and let it stream, then you may need to wait for enough of the 80+ mb to be downloaded before the player starts. If your phone is JB you have the additional option of downloading it first before playing. Video picture is sharp, completely free if pauses, jitter, or frame drops, and sound completely in sync.
Cheers.
Edit: Thought I might as well video record how well it plays for your guys.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAGqKYlSnHA
Sorry about the quality of the recording as I was using an old camera to do the recording rather than a proper video recorder, but still you will be able to see how smoothly it plays. Please blame my camera, not my iPhone for the poor video resolution. ;-)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi, that doesnt really prove anything, you could have converted it to a lower bit to play though itunes, plus the iphone screen res is half that of he HD2.
However, who would actually bother going to those lengths to fake this?
hmmm....
Honestly, even if the Iphone could play it smoothly, does it matter here? This IS the HD2 forums, isn't it? Nothing against it, but it is getting a bit tiresome to hear about it everywhere.
I have tried loads of converters and can get GOOD quality videos if i like with no lip sync problems but i want EXCELLENT quality video like the encodes i had for my HD2 but just can't find a stable converter which works all the time.
The best video quality i can get is by using....
Winmenc then DVD Catalyst 3 then Any dvd Converter.
I can get stunning video from Winmenc but some clips either dont display the picture on the phone or have lipsync problems.
DVD Catalyst comes a close second for video quality and all clips play but still get lip sync problems.
Any dvd converter gives good quality video with no lip sync problems but picture is nowhere as good as Winmenc.
Anybody got any custom profiles or programs to get excellent quality video with no lip sync problems?
Thanks for any help
Try this..http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=478050
I absolutely love it
benko286 said:
Try this..http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=478050
I absolutely love it
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks
I think i may have tried an older version of this.....will give it another go.
What profile are you using?
Cheers.
I've been using Super(c) for years with custom profiles and it works as perfect as anything I've yet heard about or seen. Plenty of such settings can be adjusted in it perfectly.
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- Sent via my HTC Desire -
I use AnyDvD Converter Pro, playback is flawless using the following settings:
VIDEO
custom mp4
800x480 (or any other scaled resolution with 800px width that preserves the aspect ratio, unless source was low res to begin with, in which case i'll stick to the source's original res)
x264 video encoding
bitrate 2000kbps (again,provided the original bitrate was higher of course, otherwise,source's value )
25/23.97fps depending on source of course
AUDIO
aac audio encoding
bitrate 320kbps
sampling 48000/44100 depending on source
2 channels
I have converted uber quality 1080p rips ( 20-30Gb worth, 20-25Mbps video bitrate, 1536+kbps 7.1 DTSHD audio) with these settings, and the results are GREAT . I havent tried pushing the video bitrate any higher, but it might playback nicely with higher values as well.
MacCarron said:
I use AnyDvD Converter Pro, playback is flawless using the following settings:
VIDEO
custom mp4
800x480 (or any other scaled resolution with 800px width that preserves the aspect ratio, unless source was low res to begin with, in which case i'll stick to the source's original res)
x264 video encoding
bitrate 2000kbps (again,provided the original bitrate was higher of course, otherwise,source's value )
25/23.97fps depending on source of course
AUDIO
aac audio encoding
bitrate 320kbps
sampling 48000/44100 depending on source
2 channels
I have converted uber quality 1080p rips ( 20-30Gb worth, 20-25Mbps video bitrate, 1536+kbps 7.1 DTSHD audio) with these settings, and the results are GREAT . I havent tried pushing the video bitrate any higher, but it might playback nicely with higher values as well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is it possible for you to upload a sample video encoded with above settings to try on our desires??
Double Twist
Why don't you try to use DoubleTwist?
It looks like iTunes, and when you sync any type of movie or audio with Desire, it will convert to the format that Desire can play. Just like that, no need to configure anything.
It also run quite fast, and it's free!
jpopgt said:
Thanks
I think i may have tried an older version of this.....will give it another go.
What profile are you using?
Cheers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Diamond but changed a little bit, max res is 800x480, veryhigh, x.264 one pass
MacCarron said:
I use AnyDvD Converter Pro, playback is flawless using the following settings:
VIDEO
custom mp4
800x480 (or any other scaled resolution with 800px width that preserves the aspect ratio, unless source was low res to begin with, in which case i'll stick to the source's original res)
x264 video encoding
bitrate 2000kbps (again,provided the original bitrate was higher of course, otherwise,source's value )
25/23.97fps depending on source of course
AUDIO
aac audio encoding
bitrate 320kbps
sampling 48000/44100 depending on source
2 channels
I have converted uber quality 1080p rips ( 20-30Gb worth, 20-25Mbps video bitrate, 1536+kbps 7.1 DTSHD audio) with these settings, and the results are GREAT . I havent tried pushing the video bitrate any higher, but it might playback nicely with higher values as well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1500 is more than enough, I use 1000kbps and video is fantastic
i will try with 1500, but I think that is overkill too
Does AnyDvD Converter Pro supports subtitles?
Thanks for the replies
th3 said:
I've been using Super(c) for years with custom profiles and it works as perfect as anything I've yet heard about or seen. Plenty of such settings can be adjusted in it perfectly.
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- Sent via my HTC Desire -
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You got some settings you could pass on for Super?....i have never got great results with it.
Cheers.
I have encoded this Lady Gaga clip using the settings mentioned here with Winmenc, Any DVD Converter Pro and MP4forHD
Winmenc i think still has much better picture quality but lip sync is way out, especially if you fast forward or back....
Any DVD looks great to but i think the lip sync is slightly out....
And MP4forHD looks great and plays fine when i set audio delay to 0.3.
Any DVD Converter....
http://rapidshare.com/files/389703402/Any.mp4
MP4forHD....
http://rapidshare.com/files/389712600/MP4ForHD.mp4
winmenc.....
http://rapidshare.com/files/389707134/winmenc.mp4
Maybe someone here could modify this profile for winmenc to get the lip sync sorted....
http://rapidshare.com/files/389723529/_0-HTC_HD2__MP4_H264_800x480_2000kbps_Sharpened__AAC_44Khz_96kbps.ini
All credit goes to the person that made this profile for the HD2.
Cheers.
Sorry for the late reply, here are the megaupload links to a couple of video clips i've encoded using the preset i posted yesterday. Souce was a 1080p BRrip in both cases.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=V8TPXP3T
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=3V318NMP
The Transformers' souce had a subtitle track and it was embedded in the rip, so that answers the previous question about subs. I have yet to check if subtitles can be disabled, but i guess it can be done (in my case, i am interested in plain english audio tracks, i don't even know what language is that )
edit: for some weird reasons the audio is noticeably out of sync WHEN PLAYED ON A PC...they are perfect on the Desire though. Pretty weird, last time i checked my pc kicks asses so the problem must be resting in the mp4 container..
You got some settings you could pass on for Super?....i have never got great results with it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'll upload the profile for you when I get back on the PC (by weekend). I change some things around with every vid though, depending on its properties. Too many internal coder settings you can tweak for slight visual/acoustic differences including how much to raise the sound in db and how much of the clip to cut out.
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- Sent via my HTC Desire -
th3 said:
I'll upload the profile for you when I get back on the PC (by weekend). I change some things around with every vid though, depending on its properties. Too many internal coder settings you can tweak for slight visual/acoustic differences including how much to raise the sound in db and how much of the clip to cut out.
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- Sent via my HTC Desire -
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok Thanks
Just to quickly add - I don't tend to use automated profiles although I know it's what most are after (quickest).
What do you think of YouTube HD? Good enough quality for you or, you'd like better?
I had a quick look at your upload vid properties and they have different internal recode settings and different end file sizes. As such, a true cross-comparison is very difficult (all things kept consistent, the stream with the highest bit-rate and file size will have better visuals). The point of transcoding really is to keep the file size as small as possible with video and audio at your accepted levels -- that level differs for everyone depending on a variety if factors. Many YouTube HD vids are for instance only 480-560 Kbps streams. But all things which impact quality were not automatically kept fixed in these transcodes. Your vids were;
1) Any
Duration : 2mn 1s
Overall bit rate : 2,091 Kbps
Video
Format profile : [email protected]
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 1,865 Kbps
Width : 800 pixels
Height : 480 pixels
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.194
Stream size : 27.1 MiB (89%)
2) MP4
Duration : 2mn 1s
Overall bit rate : 1,994 Kbps
Video
Format profile : [email protected]
Format settings, ReFrames : 1 frame
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 1,544 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 2,932 Kbps
Width : 800 pixels
Height : 448 pixels
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.172
Stream size : 27.0 MiB (93%)
3) Winmec
Duration : 2mn 1s
Overall bit rate : 2,713 Kbps
(missing vital info it would not show here)
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 2,579 Kbps
Width : 800 pixels
Height : 480 pixels
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.269
Stream size : 37.4 MiB (95%)
So the Winmec transcode should have much better visuals than the other two here, even just looking at the empirical data, however, how much of that better-ness is perceptible to untrained and trained human eyes? Judging by mass-accepted online "HD" video, usually not much - and on portable phones - even less (perceptible difference threshold decreases with decreasing display size).
I'll upload a few transcodes using different settings... see which you feel is better (on the intended phone).
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- Sent via my HTC Desire -
Thanks for the info.
Another update:
Looks like your A/V sync issues are caused by too high bit-rate video streams being too power demanding on the hardware of the phone and so the CPU can't keep up. While running some test encodes for the post I had promised, upon checking playback on the Desire, I noticed getting the same A/V sync problems which don't exist on the Desktop. Dropping the video bit-rate alleviated that problem completely albeit the visual quality dropped too. I better check the vids in the default player too just to be sure now (I use Act 1 or Meridian video players mainly). So do keep in mind that higher bit-rate video playback requires more hardware power and hence much higher battery usage than lower bit-rate.
At the moment, I'm stuck with the latest update I've just installed for Super(c) not changing internal codec settings no matter what options I choose (same Lady Gaga 1080p video taken from a Blu-ray rip). Very strange. Just working on getting that running before posting some transcodes. Bear with me, please...
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- Sent via my HTC Desire -
sorry if this is irrelevant but how do i hardcode subtitles with mp4hd?
nikosrs4 said:
sorry if this is irrelevant but how do i hardcode subtitles with mp4hd?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You just need the srt file with the same name as the movie in a folder and have the srt option selected in the edit settings of MP4forHD.
maybe I forgot the language selection..I'm trying again now, thanks
There are a lot of MP4 video clips that I cannot get to play on Xoom smoothly but they play back really well on my HTC Desire.
On Xoom the video is laggy while the audio is audible. This happened to both 720p and 480p videos. I used both the default player and Moboplayer to ensure I am using the hardware acceleration.
Strangely on my Xoom the Moboplayer can soft-decode 480p MP4 with ffmpeg and playback without any problem. 720 is smoother but the decoding was too slow which resulted in A-V async.
Again, all those clips play really well on my HTC Desire. Tegra 2 should be able to handle them.
Anyone knows anything?
Please search the forum before asking questions. This has been asnswered.
The problem you're having is to do with the clips using high profile encoding.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=968640&highlight=video
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=968308&highlight=video
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=972812&highlight=video
There's lots more. All I can say is, learn to love Handbrake and be prepared to have your computer running all night every night if you ever want to watch HD movies on this thing.
I dont agree; I have transcoded 2 blue rays, hellboy and start trek 2009 in about an hour each, using my imac and handbreak
Oh, and download Vitalplayer from the market for the best hd video playback..
wase4711 said:
I dont agree; I have transcoded 2 blue rays, hellboy and start trek 2009 in about an hour each, using my imac and handbreak
Oh, and download Vitalplayer from the market for the best hd video playback..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, well, I don't agree.
I converted 2 720p mkv 90 minute movies and a 40 minute 720p mkv TV show last night and it took 6 hours. This was done on an Intel Core 2 duo P750 2.26GHz
Not everyone has the same hardware. I suppose I could run out and buy an i5 or i7 for the sole purpose of encoding video for the XOOM.
Maybe Motorola can partner with a PC company. How about 20% off a new laptop when you buy a XOOM that way you will be able to take advantage of its HD video capability in 2 hours instead of six.
Digital Man said:
Yeah, well, I don't agree.
I converted 2 720p mkv 90 minute movies and a 40 minute 720p mkv TV show last night and it took 6 hours. This was done on an Intel Core 2 duo P750 2.26GHz
Not everyone has the same hardware. I suppose I could run out and buy an i5 or i7 for the sole purpose of encoding video for the XOOM.
Maybe Motorola can partner with a PC company. How about 20% off a new laptop when you buy a XOOM that way you will be able to take advantage of its HD video capability in 2 hours instead of six.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It all depends on your settings, and keep in mind that the imac is going to have similar hardware to your machine. The recommendation is to set max width to 1280, set B Frames to 0, turn off CABAC, 8x8 Transform, and Weighted P frames. If you do that, you'll find fairly consistent encoding times even with older hardware. Also, keep in mind that encoding is entirely processor bound and will do better the more cores you can throw at it.
mcnutty said:
It all depends on your settings, and keep in mind that the imac is going to have similar hardware to your machine. The recommendation is to set max width to 1280, set B Frames to 0, turn off CABAC, 8x8 Transform, and Weighted P frames. If you do that, you'll find fairly consistent encoding times even with older hardware. Also, keep in mind that encoding is entirely processor bound and will do better the more cores you can throw at it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Been there done that. There are no shortcuts. Good quality takes time or more cores. Or harness the GPU ie CUDA but that causes horrendous macroblocking in bright scenes.
No matter how you sugar coat it, re-encoding video is a time consuming pain in the ass for most people.
I also seem to remember there are multiple versions of the imac, with variable hardware specs, from dual core up to quad core 3.6GHz - so your claim of similar hardware seems unlikely.
..........
e.mote said:
>I converted 2 720p mkv 90 minute movies and a 40 minute 720p mkv TV show last night and it took 6 hours.
Suggest using 800 max width for substantially faster encode speed and smaller size. Quality diff is negligible on a 10".
If using 2-pass, switch to 1-pass for both faster encode time AND better quality.
Unfortunately, HB doesn't provide x264's speed presets. You can gain additional speed (at cost of some nominal size increase) with the faster presets. Hmm, I should update my HB script to allow "downloadables" as input.
>The recommendation is to set max width to 1280, set B Frames to 0, turn off CABAC, 8x8 Transform, and Weighted P frames. If you do that, you'll find fairly consistent encoding times even with older hardware.
Encoding to baseline profile (what the above basically means) gains speed by disabling more advanced "compression" features. The trade-off is significant size increase, about +30% vs high profile.
Using a lower res allows more efficient settings. At 800 width, you can use main profile. Speed diff between main & baseline is insignificant. Speed gain for the lower res is substantial.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I appreciate that your trying to help, but those are the settings that I have been using already: 1280, set B Frames to 0, turn off CABAC, turn off 8x8 Transform, and turn off Weighted P frames....
and it is still taking well over 3 hours to re-encode a 1:30 movie.
I understand that lowering the resolution will decrease the encoding time, but I consider that a last resort compromise. In fact I would consider that basically a failure of the XOOM.
I have considered buying an i5 or i7, but I feel stupid buying a new laptop for the sole purpose of encoding for the XOOM, when I could just pick up my Galaxy Tab and just play these videos immediately. No encoding. Just copy them over and play.
I am quite sure those videos are not high profile. Their bitrates were around 2M, way below 20M.
And, as I said, I can even do soft-decode to play the 480ps which does not play well with hard-decoding.
480ps, man. 480ps. Stunning.
e.mote said:
Last edited by e.mote; Today at 10:19 PM. Reason: reply removed, as recipient can't read
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your sarcasm needs work. It lacks creativity. And removing the original post is just immature.
Digital Man said:
Your sarcasm needs work. It lacks creativity. And removing the original post is just immature.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't really care about the encoding stage, I have an i7-950 which encodes a blu-ray in handbreak in well under an hour.
What I'd like to know, is are the codecs really this lacking, and will we see a solution?
I, like the OP have a HTC Desire and I could be devastated to find the XOOM can't handle the videos my Desire can.
Does it natively support mkv? I like to watch TV episodes in mkv like the 86MB Big Bang Theory episodes.
All my non-TV stuff I rip myself so I'm not concerned. Other than the DRM wmv I buy. Which play back fine on my galaxy tab.
alias_neo said:
I don't really care about the encoding stage, I have an i7-950 which encodes a blu-ray in handbreak in well under an hour.
What I'd like to know, is are the codecs really this lacking, and will we see a solution?
I, like the OP have a HTC Desire and I could be devastated to find the XOOM can't handle the videos my Desire can.
Does it natively support mkv? I like to watch TV episodes in mkv like the 86MB Big Bang Theory episodes.
All my non-TV stuff I rip myself so I'm not concerned. Other than the DRM wmv I buy. Which play back fine on my galaxy tab.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Most TV shows that are 720p mkv, and are privately enoded, and downloaded, average about 1.2 GB and will and not play. Support for MKV as a container isn't a problem, its the profile of the h264 video in the container that is the problem.
If the Video that you like to watch is only 86MB, that doesn't sound like high profile 720p. So it might play, only way to know is to try or download mediaInfo and check its properties.
Good to hear that the i7 that you have can do a blu-ray in an hour. That sounds like what I should do eventually. Wonder if an i5 will do as well. I've heard that the i7, though it has 4 physical cores, is seen as 8 due to multithreading, wheras the i5 is limited to 4.
I watched two re-encoded episodes of fringe last night, and the Video on the XOOM is really amazing. It actually is almost worth the wait.
Digital Man said:
Most TV shows that are 720p mkv, and are privately enoded, and downloaded, average about 1.2 GB and will and not play. Support for MKV as a container isn't a problem, its the profile of the h264 video in the container that is the problem.
If the Video that you like to watch is only 86MB, that doesn't sound like high profile 720p. So it might play, only way to know is to try or download mediaInfo and check its properties.
Good to hear that the i7 that you have can do a blu-ray in an hour. That sounds like what I should do eventually. Wonder if an i5 will do as well. I've heard that the i7, though it has 4 physical cores, is seen as 8 due to multithreading, wheras the i5 is limited to 4.
I watched two re-encoded episodes of fringe last night, and the Video on the XOOM is really amazing. It actually is almost worth the wait.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's correct, it's an 8 threaded processor, running on an Asus ROG III Gene.
As for the videos I'm watching:
Video
ID/String : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format_Profile : [email protected]
Format_Settings_CABAC/String : Yes
Format_Settings_RefFrames/String : 4 frames
Format_Settings_GOP : M=4, N=48
CodecID : V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC
Duration/String : 20mn 24s
BitRate/String : 465 Kbps
Width/String : 624 pixels
Height/String : 352 pixels
DisplayAspectRatio/String : 16:9
FrameRate/String : 23.976 fps
Standard : NTSC
ColorSpace : YUV
ChromaSubsampling : 4:2:0
BitDepth/String : 8 bits
ScanType/String : Progressive
Bits-(Pixel*Frame) : 0.088
StreamSize/String : 67.8 MiB (77%)
They're not 720, but they're nice enough on my Galaxy Tab. They are High Profile @ L4.0 though which I'v heard a lot of bad-mouthing about on the forum lately. I'm no expert on media codecs and frankly couldn't care as long as theyre watchable. I'd love to know I could rip my Blu-Rays at 720p and watch them on the XOOM comfortably though.
What you are posting is interesting. Its high profile, but low bit rate. Some of the early claims for the Tegra 2, which is used in the XOOM, said it actually could play high profile but only at a low bit rate, but I haven't heard it confirmed. I suspect this video will not play, but later on I will try encoding a video in a simliar manner to yours and see what happens.
Digital Man said:
What you are posting is interesting. Its high profile, but low bit rate. Some of the early claims for the Tegra 2, which is used in the XOOM, said it actually could play high profile but only at a low bit rate, but I haven't heard it confirmed. I suspect this video will not play, but later on I will try encoding a video in a simliar manner to yours and see what happens.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Great, if you like I can dropbox the file I have and PM you the link for testing. These files playback flawlessly using the Galaxy Tab with every single player software I have tried, whether hardware or software decoding. FOr them not to play on the XOOM would be a killer.
Got your file. Sorry, it plays but with no sound. I tried RockPlayer and Moboplayer and the System Player and all play the same - silent.
The Video is actually pretty good. Smooth and very acceptable. So I guess it can technically play high profile, very low bitrate files - just not with sound. Have to Play around some more and see if I can learn anything else that might get this to play correctly or figure out what the problem is.
Edit: Actually, this is a Divx encoded file, not h264, so that is why it plays. So I am a little surprised about the lack of audio. And its only mp3 audio!!! This is really amazing. I can't believe the XOOM isn't playing this correctly. Has to be a way.
Update: Ok, success! It does play correctly in Rockplayer in software decoding mode. With sound. So it looks like you will have no problem.
Digital Man said:
Got your file. Sorry, it plays but with no sound. I tried RockPlayer and Moboplayer and the System Player and all play the same - silent.
The Video is actually pretty good. Smooth and very acceptable. So I guess it can technically play high profile, very low bitrate files - just not with sound. Have to Play around some more and see if I can learn anything else that might get this to play correctly or figure out what the problem is.
Edit: Actually, this is a Divx encoded file, not h264, so that is why it plays. So I am a little surprised about the lack of audio. And its only mp3 audio!!! This is really amazing. I can't believe the XOOM isn't playing this correctly. Has to be a way.
Update: Ok, success! It does play correctly in Rockplayer in software decoding mode. With sound. So it looks like you will have no problem.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Interesting, if somewhat concerning that it won't play this in the standard players or with hard-decoding even though it uses mp3 audio.
How about VPlayer Advanced? I find this plays most of my videos nicely on the Tab.
Probably just lack of Divx support in hardware. Thats not a big deal, even a single core CPU of lower power can easily decode low res, low bitrate Divx. I don't consider that a flaw at all. Software decoding video like this with the XOOM's dual core A9's is trivial. Results are fine. Just need an app like RockPlayer that does it. XVID files will probably not work in hardware either.
From Motorolas website:
PLAYABLE FORMATS
AAC, H.263, H.264, MP3, MPEG-4, ACC+ Enhanced, OGG, MIDI, AMR NB, AAC+
Digital Man said:
Probably just lack of Divx support in hardware. Thats not a big deal, even a single core CPU of lower power can easily decode low res, low bitrate Divx. I don't consider that a flaw at all. Software decoding video like this with the XOOM's dual core A9's is trivial. Results are fine. Just need an app like RockPlayer that does it. XVID files will probably not work in hardware either.
From Motorolas website:
PLAYABLE FORMATS
AAC, H.263, H.264, MP3, MPEG-4, ACC+ Enhanced, OGG, MIDI, AMR NB, AAC+
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeh that's pretty fair I guess. How do you think it would manage if converted to MP4? I can do it on my 950 when I get home and send you it if you like? I'd not mind converting the whole lot if it played in the stock player.
So, bought the Gtab on Friday, got a 32gb unlocked (Sweet). So, here is the problem that appears to be happening to almost everyone.
My video playback is Horrible, I've tried multiple codex's, and different Resolutions.
The videos so far i've tried.
3,343 Kbps 1280x720 at 29.970 fps, AVC ([email protected]) (CABAC / 4 Ref Frames) .MP4 Container, Very Choppy.
1,390 Kbps 640x272 23.976 fps MPEG-4 Visual (Xvid) Advanced [email protected]) (BVOP2) .avi Container Very Choppy
5,000 Kbps 1280x720 29.970 fps, VC-1 (WMV3) ([email protected]) .wmv Container Plays Flawlessly
Everything but the .wmv will play flawlessly on my Vibrant. Actually .wmv's are the only thing that i have found that won't play on my Vibrant.
I will test more configurations, but so far i'm not pleased with the video playback on the galaxy tablet.
I've tried other video players off the market, Moboplayer, mVideoplayer, haven't tried RockPlayer yet, but i had it on my vibrant and I felt the playback was not as good. Maybe i'll try it on Honeycomb.
So, I guess list your experiences so far, and suggestions. I will update as I go and find things.
Reserved... (Pending List of known formats)
Working Audio Codex's (So far):
AAC Low Complexity 2 Channel, Best
MP3 2 Channel
WMA 2 Channel
None Working Audio Codec:
AC-3 (Any Channel)
Working Video Codex:
AVC/H.264 Base Profile for 720p/1080p 3 Ref Frames, 0 B Frames
MPEG-4 Visual (Xvid) (Unknown limitations)
VC-1 (Unknown limitations)
Vplayer works great for me
Unfortunately, the fact that Samsung kept their hands out of Honeycomb has a downside. As far as I know, the Tab supports no more video types than stock Honeycomb. Which results in almost no good support at all. I've come to deal with it and you can, too.
The majority of my videos (720p and 1080p mkv) are converted and compressed while maintaining the quality by using this setup:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1102922
Worth it.
tsunami1609 said:
Unfortunately, the fact that Samsung kept their hands out of Honeycomb has a downside. As far as I know, the Tab supports no more video types than stock Honeycomb. Which results in almost no good support at all. I've come to deal with it and you can, too.
The majority of my videos (720p and 1080p mkv) are converted and compressed while maintaining the quality by using this setup:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1102922
Worth it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I found that this morning and tried it, i Converted 3 different files, and tried different settings, and they all run like crap. I guess i will try some other settings on it.
Who thinks Sammy should use Exynos in the tab? Tegra does not seem to be very friendly with respect to playback. I find it tough to believe that Tab looks so sluggish compared to GS2.
Just download a different movie player app. MoboPlayer works great, and it's free.
I downloaded Hall Pass 720 BRRip xvid and it looks amazing and works great...
Sent from my GT-P7510 using XDA Premium App
DroidHam said:
I downloaded Hall Pass 720 BRRip xvid and it looks amazing and works great...
Sent from my GT-P7510 using XDA Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And its a .avi
Sent from my GT-P7510 using XDA Premium App
Whats wrong with just converting everything to hi-def MP4 on your desktop/laptop and dumping on your tablet? I mean the iPad does it with great success and gives the user the impression that it can play every video format??
The tab is a 10" screen, just about any video format 720p and above (hell even some 480p) will look just as good as 1080p on your 40-50" tv screen....or am I missing something???
kponti said:
Whats wrong with just converting everything to hi-def MP4 on your desktop/laptop and dumping on your tablet? I mean the iPad does it with great success and gives the user the impression that it can play every video format??
The tab is a 10" screen, just about any video format 720p and above (hell even some 480p) will look just as good as 1080p on your 40-50" tv screen....or am I missing something???
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What program and settings do you use, then?
Ok, I just purchased the 10.1. I use it alot to play back mp4 and m4v videos that have been encoded by Handbrake. What I've noticed on the 10.1 is that while they look excellent, when panning, the video pans with a jerky motion and is not smooth.
Any suggestions? I've looked around the forum but have not found anything definite. I've encoded the video at 720p.
From what i've read and researched, Tegra 2 only supports H.264 with Mainline Profile, Meaning 3 Reference Frames and no B frames, i've encoded several 720p Videos that way at 5Mbps and they play flawlessly.
While researching, i came across someone that came up with a Profile on Handbrake. That is what I've been using to encode my videos and so far, everything works great.
I will continue to do more Research.
Just a fyi, it does support High Profile, but with a max of 4 reference frames and 3 B frames.
Check the very first post here:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1060825
It also includes presets for High and Baseline.
buri73 said:
Background
As I understand it, Tegra 2 should playback up to High Profile 720p and Main Profile 1080p. However, with limitation on Honeycomb and/or lack of driver release by Nvidia, current crop of HC tablets do not playback anything above Baseline Profile smoothly. Future updates by Google/Nvidia should fix this issue, but it looks like we may have to reencode High/Main profile media for the time being.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Even he says it, Tegra 2 currently doesn't support anything above Baseprofile because of driver limitations
But that thread is a Very good reference on how to encode video using handbrake, for Tegra 2 Devices.
He wrote that before the 3.1 update. He should really take that out.
buri73 said:
Update 5/28: Honeycomb 3.1 upgraded TF101 can playback 720p High Profile natively!
Verified with native player and Mobo(HW playback). Modified steps 3-3.1 to reflect HP settings, added HP preset and sample. Enjoy!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ahh I see it, right at the top, right now im testing it out, encoding a 720p video using his High Profile.
Metzenw said:
I found that this morning and tried it, i Converted 3 different files, and tried different settings, and they all run like crap. I guess i will try some other settings on it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've only converted mkv files, but for 720p ones I use 1280 max output width, 20 video quality, live video type, high h.264 profile, and veryfast encode speed. For 1080p I just change the profile from high to baseline. All of my videos (with the exception of Avatar.....Man that's a long movie) are cut by two thirds. I guess I should mention though that I have a Motorola Xoom til I can sell it and get a Tab
If that doesn't work, just contact the OP of that post. He's really good at giving prompt replies.
Thanks for the information guys, I really appreciate it!
I just got my tab today and I am bitterly disappointed in how poor it is in terms of formts supported. Non of my avi or mkv files play (and when I use a 3rd party app they lag like crazy).
Video format compatibility.
I want to buy a sports camera and be able to use the honeycomb movie editor to edit the footage. I can understand why my old one couldn't edit it, as it recorded in MOV format (Apple proprietary), so I sold it.
However thinking of the Kodak Playsport XZ5, and downloaded some MP4 sample footage, which I assumed could be edited.. Nope...
Anyone know why Android can't seem to edit anything unless it was created on Android.. (it's almost as bad as Apple devices only editing video from Apple devices..)
The same footage is here: (18MB)
http://www.steves-digicams.com/camera-reviews/kodak/playsport-zx5/101_0002.MP4
Anyone know a waterproof sports camera that DOES record in a Android friendly format?
The info from MediaInfo from the file shows the following:
General
Complete name : C:\Users\Mark\Desktop\101_0002.MP4
Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : JVT
Codec ID : avc1
File size : 23.2 MiB
Duration : 16s 16ms
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 12.2 Mbps
Movie name/More : KODAK PLAYSPORT Video Camera, Zx5
Encoded date : UTC 2011-06-17 16:26:02
Tagged date : UTC 2011-06-17 16:26:02
Origin : Digital Camera
AMBA :
Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : [email protected]
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 4 frames
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 16s 16ms
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 11.8 Mbps
Maximum bit rate : 49.9 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 29.970 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.189
Stream size : 22.4 MiB (97%)
Title : Ambarella AVC / Ambarella AVC
Language : English
Encoded date : UTC 2011-06-17 16:26:02
Tagged date : UTC 2011-06-17 16:26:02
Audio
ID : 2
Format : AAC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec
Format profile : LC
Codec ID : 40
Duration : 15s 979ms
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 64.0 Kbps
Channel(s) : 1 channel
Channel positions : Front: C
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 125 KiB (1%)
Title : Ambarella AAC / Ambarella AAC
Language : English
Encoded date : UTC 2011-06-17 16:26:02
Tagged date : UTC 2011-06-17 16:26:02
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Tegra 2 is not very friendly with 1080p videos - either reconvert the video (threads can be found here about settings, codecs etc.) or get a Tegra 3 device
I'm not a video expert, but while investigating formatting for ripping movies to play on my Android devices, I found the h.264 video codec was the most compatible. That said, I can't imagine doing much video processing on my Transformer. It's cool, but by no means a desktop/ laptop replacement.
H.264 IS AVC/AAC isn't it?
This is what the Kodak Playsport ZX5 camera is producing.....
Anyone have one, and can record some 720p to try on a Transformer?
Because its a tablet and NOT a computer.
Oyeve said:
Because its a tablet and NOT a computer.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't see your point. I realise it's not a computer, which is the whole point of me trying to find a waterproof sports camera that records in a format the Transformers movie editing software understands, as I can't transcode it on the tablet itself....
What was your point?
CrazyPeter said:
I don't see your point. I realise it's not a computer, which is the whole point of me trying to find a waterproof sports camera that records in a format the Transformers movie editing software understands, as I can't transcode it on the tablet itself....
What was your point?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think his point was that some tools are better suited for certain jobs while others are not. Today's tablets (particularly ones based on the Android OS) are not very well suited for things like video editing. Sure, there is a video editing program there that does a decent job of rudimentary cutting on the Transformer's already crappy recorded video footage, but for using it to edit movies/videos recorded by an external device might not be the best.
Even the cheapest laptop computer (that costs less than the Transformer I might add) could do a better job with proper software and hardware acceleration.
That being said, if you are well and determined to use a tablet to edit, I'm sure someone here can help you with a solution. My guess is you will probably need some other device to transcode before editing.
I will only buy something ilthat is compatible.
I only have two requirements.
1. Its video output is in a compatible format
2, its waterproof.
CrazyPeter said:
H.264 IS AVC/AAC isn't it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, it's a common misconception. H264 is MP4, but MP4 is not H264. MP4 is a suite protocols. H264=MP4 Part 10. Here's the full vomit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-4_Part_14
Anyway, 3GP, MOV, and MP4 are all MP4, but may or may not be H264/AAC.
FYI: Canon uses H264/with sowt/AIFF audio, which is a semi-proprietary Apple format (sowt is just a PCM/Wave variant). It sucks because it seems that the only thing that will play it is Apple crap or Windows 7. Most of the embedded hardware players (e.g. LG TVs/PS3) drop the audio. I don't know if Canon just didn't want to pony up the money for AAC or was trying to be a purist.
I've been toying with a lossless conversion, but I can't find any documentation on either sowt or twos. I have managed to demux the stream. The Apple stuff all refers to AIFF, which is a different format. I'm really annoyed with Canon, because generally their stuff is really good.
dburckh said:
No, it's a common misconception. H264 is MP4, but MP4 is not H264. MP4 is a suite protocols. H264=MP4 Part 10. Here's the full vomit:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The problem I have, is what I consider to be about as close to ISO standard format as there is i.e.
H.264/AVC video (LC profile)
AAC Audio
MP4 container
Can't be played or edited on the transfomer. Surely it doesn't get any standard than H.264/LC with AAC in a MP4 container does it?
Well, got some 720p 60FPS and 720p 30fps footage from a test camera, and the Transformer plays the video just fine, however bizarrely Movie Studio is incapable of editing it.
I have come to the conclusion tha Movie Studio in Honeycomb is ****e.. Lets home ICS sorts out some of it's problems, and makes it more of an iMovie competitor....
Raised an Android defect: http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=22426
the damn tegra 2 cpu has 100mflops power... compare that to a pentium 4 from 2003(northwood 3.0ghz) 6500mflops
my i7 pumps 75,000mflops
it will take the transformer WEEKS TO REENCODE ANY SORT OF MEDIA. It can barely play 1080p let alone RENDER it. good luck.
chatch15117 said:
the damn tegra 2 cpu has 100mflops power... compare that to a pentium 4 from 2003(northwood 3.0ghz) 6500mflops
my i7 pumps 75,000mflops
it will take the transformer WEEKS TO REENCODE ANY SORT OF MEDIA. It can barely play 1080p let alone RENDER it. good luck.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This.
Not to mention that you're limited to 1 GB of memory, and only about 700MB of it is available to apps. A decent video editing workstation these days will have at least 8GB, which is just barely sufficient for editing an hour long 720p movie. You can certainly attempt to edit videos on much less memory, but again the performance would be atrocious.
Not to mention what that would do to the battery life if you trip over the cable .
Can't say that I imagine a lot of people in powerful money pockets wanting anyone at home having the ability to do such stuff anyway, if there's any chance of e.g. ripping a Blu-Ray wit the same kit.
Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk
???? Has school kicked out or something, as I really can't comprehend how dumb these last few comments are.
the whole point of picking a video camera that records in the correct format IS SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO TRANSCODE. that is the whole point of this thread, You can't transcode on a tablet, so it's crucial to pick a device that records in a compatible format... If it's in the correct format, then it's trivial to trim and splice footage in a simple movie editor like Honeycomb's Movie Studio.
Some people really are so thick it's unbelievable...
CrazyPeter said:
???? Has school kicked out or something, as I really can't comprehend how dumb these last few comments are.
the whole point of picking a video camera that records in the correct format IS SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO TRANSCODE. that is the whole point of this thread, You can't transcode on a tablet, so it's crucial to pick a device that records in a compatible format... If it's in the correct format, then it's trivial to trim and splice footage in a simple movie editor like Honeycomb's Movie Studio.
Some people really are so thick it's unbelievable...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, just the typical xda idiots talking about **** above their heads. Lol'd pretty hard at the mflops post. I really miss the "developers" part of "xda-developers" :sigh:.
I wouldn't expect Movie Studio to add any real support for it. Movie Studio was a gimmick app to show off honeycomb, made for people who want to mess around with stuff recorded on device. Give it some more time and I'm sure we'll get more professional video editing software (for a price).
There is no way you are going to be able to edit HD video at a reasonable bitrate (at any profile) on an ARM device. You would need a native app that talked directly to the handful of CUDA cores in the tegra to do this, and there is not enough memory to hold more than a few seconds of uncompressed video on your timeline for a preview (not to mention the amount of virtual nand cache you would need).
Tegra 2 has some hardware DECODING of avc/h.264, but realtime encoding is simply not a possibility for even tegra 3.
I share the desire for an awesome NLE on android, but its gonna take a few years for the tech to get there.
/EDIT
To answer the first part of your question, it is possible to edit using the honeycomb app, but you will need to transcode (and lose a lot of quality). I doubt it would suit your needs, as at that point youd be better off just using windows movie maker/imovie
kazama42 said:
There is no way you are going to be able to edit HD video at a reasonable bitrate (at any profile) on an ARM device. You would need a native app that talked directly to the handful of CUDA cores in the tegra to do this, and there is not enough memory to hold more than a few seconds of uncompressed video on your timeline for a preview (not to mention the amount of virtual nand cache you would need).
Tegra 2 has some hardware DECODING of avc/h.264, but realtime encoding is simply not a possibility for even tegra 3.
I share the desire for an awesome NLE on android, but its gonna take a few years for the tech to get there.
/EDIT
To answer the first part of your question, it is possible to edit using the honeycomb app, but you will need to transcode (and lose a lot of quality). I doubt it would suit your needs, as at that point youd be better off just using windows movie maker/imovie
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think you don't understand how things work.
IF (and that's the original point of this thread), the format is correct, then you don't do any encoding/decoding/transcoding.
Trimming/Splicing is all that's required, along with rendering a picture and transitions and adding a audio track.
This is EXACTLY what iMovie does, and Transformer is perfectly capable of doing so to. AS ALONG AS THE VIDEO IS IN THE CORRECT FORMAT.
CrazyPeter is correct... if the video is encoded to be played back on the device then it can also edit it. You do not need to store the entire video in memory or transcode it, you can merely store positions of the sliced clips in memory as a frame offset of the original video file.. then trim/slice the video together when its' done (which *doesn't* require encoding). It gets iffy when you want to add transitions, text etc into the project but for *just* trimming and slicing it can work.
Sent from my Transformer TF101
Gary13579 said:
CrazyPeter is correct... if the video is encoded to be played back on the device then it can also edit it. You do not need to store the entire video in memory or transcode it, you can merely store positions of the sliced clips in memory as a frame offset of the original video file.. then trim/slice the video together when its' done (which *doesn't* require encoding). It gets iffy when you want to add transitions, text etc into the project but for *just* trimming and slicing it can work.
Sent from my Transformer TF101
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In agreement, i was referring to non-linear editing, which no tablet can do today. this virtualdub-like functionality certainly could work. you'd just need to find a way to hook into the hardware decoding capabilities of the tegra2 i would guess.