Related
Anyone know what this about?
http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2008/...-angry-mobile-owners-rush-castle-htc-with-bu/
link to the xda thread about it?
This is about a group of litigation-crazed people who want to file a class-action suit against a device manufacturer (HTC) because the manufacturer did not include a functionality that would be technologically possible to include in a device. Since class-action suits are overwhelmingly just scams where the lawyers literally make millions for a few hours work, and the companies sued get to give you a coupon for a future purchase thereby increasing the chance you will, in fact, make a future purchase from them, I make no prediction as to whether a suit will be filed or settled in the customary way. However, in a "real" law suit, there is no way the courts would require a company to include all technologically possible features in a product, regardless of how "easy" it might allegedly be to include them. Note that in this case, neither HTC nor the carriers (as far as I have heard) ever stated that this functionality was included in the device.
Yeah, I don't know where that is coming from... of all the issues with the phone.. video is the least. BT still sucks as well as the phone turning on and off at will. Not checking email when it is supposed to... etc etc.
yakky said:
Yeah, I don't know where that is coming from... of all the issues with the phone.. video is the least. BT still sucks as well as the phone turning on and off at will. Not checking email when it is supposed to... etc etc.
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Maybe you should file a class-action suit against the video driver class-action people for taking HTC's time and attention away from fixing real problems...
Actually the mogul does have video playback issues with constant stutering and pausing. From what I've heard from 6700 users video playback is much much smoother (the way it should be). I don't know if it calls for a law suit but hey at least they got htc's attention and now their releasing new drivers that will supposedly fix the video playback issues.
bakntyme said:
This is about a group of litigation-crazed people who want to file a class-action suit against a device manufacturer (HTC) because the manufacturer did not include a functionality that would be technologically possible to include in a device. Since class-action suits are overwhelmingly just scams where the lawyers literally make millions for a few hours work, and the companies sued get to give you a coupon for a future purchase thereby increasing the chance you will, in fact, make a future purchase from them, I make no prediction as to whether a suit will be filed or settled in the customary way. However, in a "real" law suit, there is no way the courts would require a company to include all technologically possible features in a product, regardless of how "easy" it might allegedly be to include them. Note that in this case, neither HTC nor the carriers (as far as I have heard) ever stated that this functionality was included in the device.
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Keep your feces to yourself. if you have nothing better to do but flame a valid issue on HTC phones then i suggest to go jump off a hill.
SINNN said:
Keep your feces to yourself. if you have nothing better to do but flame a valid issue on HTC phones then i suggest to go jump off a hill.
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Why are you afraid for someone to post a valid, opposing viewpoint to yours? Can you not accept that someone who disagrees with you may still have a valid point? My post was not flaming at all, your post however seems to utilize nothing but flame to express your thoughts. Now, please post again with a well-thought-out response to my points as opposed to a simple flame, as I am interested in an intelligent response and will read it with an open mind.
While you are at it, maybe you can explain why, if all that is needed is a simple driver and all graphics problems will be solved with no detrimental side-effects, no one here on xda-developers, where I truly believe there is at least as much talent as at HTC, has done the allegedly simple task of writing or finding that driver and distributing it.
bakntyme said:
Why are you afraid for someone to post a valid, opposing viewpoint to yours? Can you not accept that someone who disagrees with you may still have a valid point? My post was not flaming at all, your post however seems to utilize nothing but flame to express your thoughts. Now, please post again with a well-thought-out response to my points as opposed to a simple flame, as I am interested in an intelligent response and will read it with an open mind.
While you are at it, maybe you can explain why, if all that is needed is a simple driver and all graphics problems will be solved with no detrimental side-effects, no one here on xda-developers, where I truly believe there is at least as much talent as at HTC, has done the allegedly simple task of writing or finding that driver and distributing it.
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I feel the need to address this... despite not having been in the original exchange. I can accept that you have a differing viewpoint from us. I refuse to be called a "litigation-crazed" person. I also think you need to get your facts straight before you pass judgment.
The simple fact is - we want the functionality that our devices were advertised with. Many of us did our research and realized that the MSM7500 is a POWERFUL chip. The video acceleration is top-tier, and everything else seemed good too. Then HTC decided to not include a driver for video acceleration. Also, before someone mentions that HTC has claimed(but never in an official press release) that the MSM7500 might NOT include the video acceleration... When have you known a huge manufacturer(nVidia, AMD, Intel, ATi, Qualcomm, etc) to name two differing devices the same name? They don't. they generally qualify them(e.g. 8800 series nVidia cards can be 8800 GT, GTX, GTS, etc.) What HTC did is akin to Dell selling you an Inspiron notebook with an nVidia 8800GTS card inside, then telling you that they didn't include drivers. Oh, and don't forget that nVidia won't support the card, since it's up to the manufacturer(Dell) to supply the drivers. Microsoft won't do it since it's Dell's problem. Dell won't do it because it isn't cost effective. (Suspend the reality of the situation for the analogy, though, please) Now you're left with a $300 piece of video hardware that can't be used because nobody wanted to provide a driver. Go software acceleration! That's the issue we're having. The phones WERE advertised as having the MSM7500(or 7200) which according to everything I've seen both have video acceleration. HTC just dropped the ball.
Now, about us writing our own drivers... That would be difficult without getting a bunch of information from Microsoft, HTC and Qualcomm, which they won't release. If you don't know why, look up open source video drivers for Linux, and you'll understand the pain. It's not a baseless suit - however I don't think that class action is the way to go. I think we need to work WITH MS, HTC, and Qualcomm to come up with a driver. Period. Don't let up the pressure until we have that.
I am sorry, but when your advocacy group starts out with a name like "HTCClassAction", and names its website "htcclassaction.org", it shows itself as not interested in getting the claimed result, but instead, despite any protestations from the group, interested in filing a class-action lawsuit from the beginning. That is "litigation-crazed". Was "htcvideodrivers.org" not available? I am sure that, if you wanted to, given a few minutes you could come up with several non-litigation-oriented group and website names. If you were the product manager for the 6800 at HTC, and you heard of the issues raised by the group HTCClassAction, would you think, "Here is a group of users that wants to work with us to resolve what they see as a legitimate issue?"
Speaking of facts...have you actually seen an advertisement that stated that the devices came with this functionality, or did you just assume that because it was advertised as having this chipset, and the chipset has this capability, that the functionality would be included? I would bet that HTC never stated that the 6800 would include every feature technologically possible with the chipset. It has the capability of supporting an 8MP camera, but they didn't include that either. Another lawsuit? I am sure there are other things the chipset would be CAPABLE of that were not included. If you actually researched the chipset so thoroughly for this issue prior to purchasing the device, why did you not notice in the first 30 days that it was not included, and return the device?
Realize that modern class-action lawsuits are almost always settled for lots of money to the attorneys and a pittance to the class. Remember the Verizon Moto 710 Bluetooth class action? It was settled as usual...the attorneys got somewhere around $6 million; users got $25 if they wanted to keep the 710 and stay with Verizon, a waived ETF and a refund if they wanted to leave Verizon, and a credit toward another device if they wanted to stay with Verizon but not keep the 710. They did not get additional Bluetooth profiles. And if this goes to trial, the courts will never order a manufacturer to provide technology, and support for it, that the manufacturer does not want to provide. IF you could prove false advertising, and I do not think that you could, you might get a small refund or credit toward another phone. If that is what you want, just sell the device on an internet auction site and buy something else...you will probably get more that way.
sucks too that our phones dont even have the ati chip in them. my htc wizard (old school) had better video and gameplay
I don't play games much on my ppc so this problem hasn't affected me as much. However I did notice that PIE was sluggish and freaked when video playback sucked on WM and TCPMP. Most of that was avoided by using GDI on TCPMP.
The real issue here is why can't they add the driver? If it was a simple fix it probably wouldn't have been left out in the first place. Sounds to me like they ran into technical issues trying to make it work.
I just got the mogul last week. I have 30 days to evaluate it. Do you think that I should have gotten something else? I think that I've had at least 10 different Smartphones & PPC's in the past 5 or 6 years. They all have something I dislike about them. This one is the best one I've had yet, but would you recommend something else? THANKS
johnannie said:
I just got the mogul last week. I have 30 days to evaluate it. Do you think that I should have gotten something else? I think that I've had at least 10 different Smartphones & PPC's in the past 5 or 6 years. They all have something I dislike about them. This one is the best one I've had yet, but would you recommend something else? THANKS
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you hit the nail on the head. EVERY PPC is going to have SOMETHING you dont like about it.
with that said. it only matters what you think. dont go taking advice from a forum where 50 percent of its members cant even tie their shoes.
For the record, i agree with what the person said way up at the beginnning of the thread. "Why are you *****ing now when you had 30 days in which to evaluate and return it if you felt the need?!""
I would imagine the courts will say the same. everyone who thinks this is a legit complaint needs to get a hobby. you all had 30 days in which to make your decision, so DEAL with it.
sound like a buncha kids to me
I guess we should sue them for not having a 'tv out' jack on the mogul too, since thats also possible. and oh yeah, where's my 8 megapixel camera on the mogul?? it supports that as well.
ah screw it, im going to cry to mommy
watson540 said:
you hit the nail on the head. EVERY PPC is going to have SOMETHING you dont like about it.
with that said. it only matters what you think. dont go taking advice from a forum where 50 percent of its members cant even tie their shoes.
For the record, i agree with what the person said way up at the beginnning of the thread. "Why are you *****ing now when you had 30 days in which to evaluate and return it if you felt the need?!""
I would imagine the courts will say the same. everyone who thinks this is a legit complaint needs to get a hobby. you all had 30 days in which to make your decision, so DEAL with it.
sound like a buncha kids to me
I guess we should sue them for not having a 'tv out' jack on the mogul too, since thats also possible. and oh yeah, where's my 8 megapixel camera on the mogul?? it supports that as well.
ah screw it, im going to cry to mommy
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Hahahahaha. Yes, we're children. Little babies, the lot of us. Anyway......
No, we shouldn't sue them for not including a tv-out jack or an 8 megapixel camera. What we are trying to achieve is driver support FOR THE INCLUDED HARDWARE. This is what most people who argue against our position fail to realize. We aren't asking them to do something crazy, like give us a better camera or a tv-out jack, or even more memory. We're asking them to SUPPORT THE HARDWARE THEY SOLD US. Gasp.
Now... I'll use an analogy for those among us who are a bit retarded. If you were to buy a car that was advertised with a special computer chip in it that can control a supercharger, the electronic stability control system, up to 6 airbags, and the radio (all of which are included in your car, albeit only 4 airbags) - and it came with a 30-day money-back guarantee... and you drove it for 30 days and thought to yourself, "Wow, this is clearly better than last years' model" - would you return it? Probably not... That's what happened here.
We bought our phones, tried them and went, "Wow, they kicked the crap out of the <insert old PDA phone here>" and kept them. Now, back to our example. Now imagine you go to a car-meet-up with your new fancy car, and everyone there is talking about how <insert another fast car here> is wayyyy faster than their car, in the same conditions. You and the other owners do some research and find out that the car manufacturer didn't include software to make your supercharger work. It's just inert, sitting there looking pretty. Wouldn't you be pretty pissed that the chip in your car wasn't actually using the supercharger? Wouldn't you expect that if it was advertised as having this chip and a supercharger, that the supercharger would actually work?
Anyway - that's where I'm coming from at least - I don't presume to speak for anyone else though. I will say this though, watson540, you need to calm down. You're running around these forums beating on people's opinions and posts. Frankly, yours aren't much more productive. At least try to post something relevant or meaningful... or at the very least something other than "you moron, rtft" or "you moron, stop crying".
it's not really a bug its more
like a pc with the generic vga driver installed
even if the pc have a geforce
problems is that one cant get hold of the
spc driver to replace the generic
ponicg said:
We bought our phones, tried them and went, "Wow, they kicked the crap out of the <insert old PDA phone here>" and kept them.
...
Wouldn't you expect that if it was advertised as having this chip and a supercharger, that the supercharger would actually work?
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OK, so you admit that you were very satisfied with the performance until someone said "Hey, I think they OWE US something MORE than what we got, let's SUE THEM for it?" If the device met your needs when you tested it, then you have no complaint. If it did not, you should have returned it in the 30 day return period.
As I asked you way back in this thread, but you have not yet addressed, (nor any of the other points in my previous post), "have you actually seen an advertisement that stated that the devices came with this functionality, or did you just assume that because it was advertised as having this chipset, and the chipset has this capability, that the functionality would be included?...If you actually researched the chipset so thoroughly for this issue prior to purchasing the device, why did you not notice in the first 30 days that it was not included, and return the device?"
None of these analogies is perfect...one big flaw in yours is that you hypothesized "If you were to buy a car that was advertised with a special computer chip in it that can control a supercharger," then switched to the car actually having a supercharger advertised: "Wouldn't you expect that if it was advertised as having this chip and a supercharger". Another is that the supercharger's existence is open and apparent to someone who looks under the hood, without requiring any research or disassembly of the vehicle. Another is that in chip manufacturing, it is usually more efficient to produce a batch of chips with all the capabilities, then use the ones you want in each device, as opposed to redesigning the chip package and retooling the production run for each combination of features desired in each application. No one could reasonably say that it was more efficient to produce a factory run of cars with all possible mechanical features (such as the supercharger in your example) included, and then only connect and use the ones desired for that model. However, auto manufacturers also sometimes utilize parts and sub-assemblies in a particular model without enabling or utilizing all of that component's capabilities, when doing so is more efficient.
Since you like automotive analogies, I will use one without resorting to calling anyone "a bit retarded": suppose that Ford announced that all 2010 Mustangs would use the new computer chip from Super Tuner Corporation, "because of its wonderful and powerful new capabilities," with no details as to what particular features would be made available. Your research into the chip on Super Tuner's website revealed that it supported superchargers, turbochargers, four-wheel drive, four-wheel steering, and nitrous fuel systems. You went in to a Ford dealer and test-drove the top-of-the-line 2010 Mustang, were impressed by its performance, and bought it. Six months later, someone pointed out that you had received none of those performance items listed above. You did not know why, but it was because Ford had internally determined pre-production that the suspension and frame would not be sufficient to provide those performance items in any model Mustang, and they did not want to re-engineer the support structure. They made no announcement about these features not being available, as they had never made any announcement about including those features. Would you join the MustangClassAction.org group? Now suppose that you had done no research prior to the purchase, and six months later discovered the information on Super Tuner's website after someone pointed out the lack to you...even less valid a complaint then, isn't it?
And further suppose that at the same time, someone else says, "I took the interior of my Mustang apart, and it has mounts for 8 speakers, and they only provided it with 4 speakers. Ford has to install 4 more speakers in every Mustang, because it has the capability of holding them!"
And another owner pulls out his factory radio, notices the output jack on the back for a subwoofer..."Where is my subwoofer? It obviously was supposed to come with my car, or they would not have included a radio that could support one and put a jack on the back of the radio to plug one in!!"
Meanwhile, another owner says "I was testing the electronic trip computer included in my Mustang, the same one included in all 2010 Mustangs, and it has the ability to calculate and display up to 55 MPG, but my Mustang only gets 23 MPG. Obviously, Ford was advertising a Mustang that would get 55 MPG and must give us that!"
Enough analogies? Would you get angrier, and call Ford arrogant, when they say, "Thank you for your business, customers, but we never said the Mustang had those capabilities, and we have no intention of retrofitting them, but we will take your opinions into account in designing our next vehicle?"
Analogies by their nature will never replicate the Titan/Mogul/6800 situation. However, we can discuss the 6800 situation itself, and I am waiting for your answer about the HTC advertisement and your not discovering the lack in the first 30 days of your device ownership.
its just bull**** when the the video playback on the 6700 is alot better than the titan. makes no sense at all and yes i feel ripped off.
im no expert..but from over here it looks like bakntyme just put all of you crybabies in your place
very well said bakntyme. perfect.
p.s. yeah im an asshole. but this asshole can read and troubleshoot and operate electronics all by my big self.
read these forums enough and you will start to think everyone in the world collectively never got out of elementary school
apologies where they are due. but some people are incredible helpless (this last comment has nothing to do with this thread im responding to the guy above who "called me out" for being an (admitted) asshole)
unless you guys can come up with some previous claim by HTC that the mogul was supposed to support this specific capability of the chip, i dont see how you guys can try to force anything out of them. I'm with bakntyme on this one.
Sure its pretty crappy that they put the hardware in there and didnt support it, and im no lawyer, but it doesnt seem like they would be under any legal obligation to support the video drivers.
watson540 said:
im no expert..but from over here it looks like bakntyme just put all of you crybabies in your place
very well said bakntyme. perfect.
p.s. yeah im an asshole. but this asshole can read and troubleshoot and operate electronics all by my big self.
read these forums enough and you will start to think everyone in the world collectively never got out of elementary school
apologies where they are due. but some people are incredible helpless (this last comment has nothing to do with this thread im responding to the guy above who "called me out" for being an (admitted) asshole)
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Although I appreciate the support, a more professional wording of it might help to keep from increasing the level of emotions and inflammation on this issue.
fathamburger said:
haha yeah I read the colour cycling post shortly after I posted this and figured it was you
Didnt find it via google, found it via the Dell website via their dell venue pro hashtag which popped up your tweeted complaints plus several others. Not a good sign at all. Hope they will not be selling the same units to us when they become available without addressing the problems, if the delays are a result of addressing the problems they should at least say so.
Even then, I need a phone of my own for development soon. Will have to give up my current one to another developer shortly, hell this is starting to become a very costly platform to buy into since I may have to buy a "stopgap" phone I don't really want i.e. LG quantum if these shortages persist.
Efjay I wasn't trying to spread FUD, rather his is the first detailed post of his experiences on a non-vapourware phone and i'd consider it requisite reading for anyone wishing to make an informed decision.
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Not sure whats going on, how did this become the first post in this thread?
dotnetnate.com/2010/11/why-windows-phone-7-will-fail-and-i-might-finally-break-down-and-get-an-iphone/
God...people read that thing? pfft...how'd that get on Google so fast?
So this person's impatience and incompetence means that WP7 is a failure?
Can't argue with that logic.
Whats worse is this is the second forum this has been posted in by the same poster that I know of, who knows how many more. Looks like someone's trying to spread the FUD!!!
Actually, I'm feeling a bit clairvoyant myself, here's my prediction - tonight will be dark, tomorrow the sky will be bright in some places and others not so much! Bow down before my awesome future-seeing powers!!!!
I have not heard of the Venue Pro going into the death reboot spiral...
The 'Engineering Sample' issue was pretty covered the day of launch and I believe it was a mistake on their part.
For me, a 16GB phone would be fine, as I really don't use my phone as a media device. I use my phone for internet, email, SMS/MMS and calls.
I would worry about battery life anyway with me using the web a TON on a daily basis and responding to many emails/SMS messages.
Let's see what happens when these are officially put on sale and people start getting them in their hands...
There are some parts of the above blog post though that I do agree with....having your brand new OS on a hardware platform that is about a year old (1ghz Snapdragon proc) is not the best business.
orochidp said:
So this person's impatience and incompetence means that WP7 is a failure?
Can't argue with that logic.
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Yeah, the fact that I can read and understand what I AM allowed to do based on the terms of of a contract is a *****.
Maybe you should try selling this POS to customers. While yes, Dell royally [email protected]#)('d up - the fact is, MS is to blame for the storage problem. Period. It's not in any way, shape or form a consumer device given the approach they took and as someone who sells technology, specifically MS tech, to clients - guess what - I'm advising them to still the hell clear of WP7 until they actually engineer it properly to have broad appeal. Or would you like me to also get quotes from others at MS that have to evangelize this crap who also think it's a load of BS as well?
Spankmeister said:
I have not heard of the Venue Pro going into the death reboot spiral...
The 'Engineering Sample' issue was pretty covered the day of launch and I believe it was a mistake on their part.
For me, a 16GB phone would be fine, as I really don't use my phone as a media device. I use my phone for internet, email, SMS/MMS and calls.
I would worry about battery life anyway with me using the web a TON on a daily basis and responding to many emails/SMS messages.
Let's see what happens when these are officially put on sale and people start getting them in their hands...
There are some parts of the above blog post though that I do agree with....having your brand new OS on a hardware platform that is about a year old (1ghz Snapdragon proc) is not the best business.
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The first unit I received, the one that went back to the store, was not an engineering sample. Someone mentioned that I should've written down the revision numbers...but I also had none of the other problems the engineering samples had, e.g. I could connect just fine to my secure wi-fi network. Two types of devices went out, contrary to Dell's public statement. All Dell is claiming is that batteries were mislabled but there are two distinct sets of behaviors, i.e. one is the 'proper' version of the hardware and the other isn't.
nathanysmith said:
Yeah, the fact that I can read and understand what I AM allowed to do based on the terms of of a contract is a *****.
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You can hit your phone over and over with a hammer if you want according to the contract, it doesn't mean you aren't stupid for doing it.
nathanysmith said:
Maybe you should try selling this POS to customers. While yes, Dell royally [email protected]#)('d up - the fact is, MS is to blame for the storage problem. Period.
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What storage problem? The one where Microsoft explained what the criteria is for an acceptable card, or the part where they said that they were working with SD card makers to get the proper information on the packaging to let the users know if the card was acceptable to use in the device?
What you did was impatient. You performed an unsupported procedure on a undeveloped feature using a substandard card, then proceeded to blame everyone but yourself. The Venue has plenty of flaws, sure, but I'm not sure what you experienced is anyone's fault but yours.
PROTIP: When modifying hardware on your device, especially hardware noted by the manufacturer to be unmodifiable, unintended issues may arise.
orochidp said:
What storage problem? The one where Microsoft explained what the criteria is for an acceptable card, or the part where they said that they were working with SD card makers to get the proper information on the packaging to let the users know if the card was acceptable to use in the device?
What you did was impatient. You performed an unsupported procedure on a undeveloped feature using a substandard card, then proceeded to blame everyone but yourself. The Venue has plenty of flaws, sure, but I'm not sure what you experienced is anyone's fault but yours.
PROTIP: When modifying hardware on your device, especially hardware noted by the manufacturer to be unmodifiable, unintended issues may arise.
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Either I didn't clarify it or you didn't read it...but MSFT is claiming, in their stores, that it breaks the warranty if you replace what it shipped with with ANY card - even certified ones. They stated that the Focus is the only one that can have its storage swapped out. So in other words, when those shiny new "Certified" logos get put on the cards - they're useless outside of the focus. So yes - it's absolutely MSFT's fault for going with a storage scheme that is this destructive and allowing devices with such minimal (non-replaceable!) storage to even be on the shelves.
It's not impatient - it's realistic. If a mfg doesn't want someone to change something, to the point where the change is truly catastrophic to the device, then they'd damn well better put a lot more labeling what MOST intelligent people look to modify, although I'd hardly call this a modification. Further - it was working just fine and I'm apparently not the only one to experience power cycling, mine just never recovered from it.
nathanysmith said:
Either I didn't clarify it or you didn't read it...but MSFT is claiming, in their stores, that it breaks the warranty if you replace what it shipped with with ANY card - even certified ones. They stated that the Focus is the only one that can have its storage swapped out. So in other words, when those shiny new "Certified" logos get put on the cards - they're useless outside of the focus. So yes - it's absolutely MSFT's fault for going with a storage scheme that is this destructive and allowing devices with such minimal (non-replaceable!) storage to even be on the shelves.
It's not impatient - it's realistic. If a mfg doesn't want someone to change something, to the point where the change is truly catastrophic to the device, then they'd damn well better put a lot more labeling what MOST intelligent people look to modify, although I'd hardly call this a modification. Further - it was working just fine and I'm apparently not the only one to experience power cycling, mine just never recovered from it.
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Most people buy the device they want in the first place and DONT go rooting in the innards of their device looking for storage card slots when the device clearly does not have one visible or other ways to unofficialy upgrade their device. The fact that you made the choice to swap the card is not MS's fault, they made their position clear on swapping storage cards, and the card in the Dell is obviously not intended to be swappable, the manufacturer made the effort to hide the card from being visible irrespective of what methods they used, and you made the choice to buy a device with insufficient storage and decided to add storage in an unsupported way. Cant see where your storage card complaint has any merit.
Whether MS's way of implementing storage card integration is correct or not is a separate issue, so are the inevitable bugs in any piece of software as there are in WP7, but for the storage card complaint if you go out of your way to use a device in a way for which it was not intended you cant blame anyone but yourself.
nathanysmith said:
God...people read that thing? pfft...how'd that get on Google so fast?
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haha yeah I read the colour cycling post shortly after I posted this and figured it was you
Didnt find it via google, found it via the Dell website via their dell venue pro hashtag which popped up your tweeted complaints plus several others. Not a good sign at all. Hope they will not be selling the same units to us when they become available without addressing the problems, if the delays are a result of addressing the problems they should at least say so.
Even then, I need a phone of my own for development soon. Will have to give up my current one to another developer shortly, hell this is starting to become a very costly platform to buy into since I may have to buy a "stopgap" phone I don't really want i.e. LG quantum if these shortages persist.
Efjay I wasn't trying to spread FUD, rather his is the first detailed post of his experiences on a non-vapourware phone and i'd consider it requisite reading for anyone wishing to make an informed decision.
nathanysmith said:
Either I didn't clarify it or you didn't read it...but MSFT is claiming, in their stores, that it breaks the warranty if you replace what it shipped with with ANY card - even certified ones. They stated that the Focus is the only one that can have its storage swapped out. So in other words, when those shiny new "Certified" logos get put on the cards - they're useless outside of the focus. So yes - it's absolutely MSFT's fault for going with a storage scheme that is this destructive and allowing devices with such minimal (non-replaceable!) storage to even be on the shelves.
It's not impatient - it's realistic. If a mfg doesn't want someone to change something, to the point where the change is truly catastrophic to the device, then they'd damn well better put a lot more labeling what MOST intelligent people look to modify, although I'd hardly call this a modification. Further - it was working just fine and I'm apparently not the only one to experience power cycling, mine just never recovered from it.
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Why did you buy this phone in the first place? Your biggest gripe is the lack of storage space on the phone. Okay, fine. 8GB is probably not enough to store all my MP3/Videos/misc....
However you knew going into the purchase that 8GB was all you were getting. I'm pretty sure that you did not know that it had an easily accessible MSD slot. Reports of the MSD slot did not start coming out until 11/9... as in your blog post. You purchased your device on 11/8 as seen on your Twitter.
I purchased it on 11/8 at the Scottsdale MSFT store. I hate to break it to you, but it's not exactly rocket science to pull the battery out and look for where a microSD card would be. I had that sticker off and the card pulled within about 5 minutes of having it in the car. My apologies for not posting it to the world, but if that's exceptionally difficult to imagine how one could do such a thing without someone else writing about it first, perhaps you shouldn't be critiquing my actions. The only delay between me purchasing it and running into problems was the shipping date on the initial 32GB card.
efjay said:
Most people buy the device they want in the first place and DONT go rooting in the innards of their device looking for storage card slots
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Really? You're saying that on this forum? Have you even SEEN the sticker? It has no text on it...it has nothing. There's nothing to distinguish it from something that could've been put there just to hold it in over a OMGYOURPHONEISGONNADIE sticker.
efjay said:
The fact that you made the choice to swap the card is not MS's fault, they made their position clear on swapping storage cards, and the card in the Dell is obviously not intended to be swappable the manufacturer made the effort to hide the card from being visible irrespective of what methods they used
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You really don't have any concept of contracts... unless something is stated that it will in fact void the warranty, the warranty is in tact. Don't piss on me over bad lawyering on Dell's part. If anything, you should be thanking people that are griping about this to get it changed.
Cant see where your storage card complaint has any merit.
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That they claim I voided a warranty is where it has merit. Again, L2Contract. I did nothing in violation of the warranty. There was no warning that removing the sticker or the card itself violated the warranty - that's really the end of the story. At BEST you could argue that there's a very minor warning at the end of the manual...I mean, dead on the back of it, that mentions that it may make the phone unusable - but again, nothing that mentions that it's a violation of a warranty. Beyond that, even MS' KB article are MUCH less dire than that and are pretty much summed up as 'you might lose some data'.
Whether MS's way of implementing storage card integration is correct or not is a separate issue
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Yes - it is. However MS is not 'separate' in this case - they were the ones in the store telling me I voided the warranty when 1.) nothing indicates that such an action would and 2.) They're not the warranty holders.
you go out of your way to use a device in a way for which it was not intended you cant blame anyone but yourself.
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Yeah, I went reeeeeeeally far out of my way. You know...looking in the same place I'd look in other phones for SD slots, e.g. my HD2 and seeing what was pretty obviously one...yeah, that took some brainpower.
nathanysmith said:
Really? You're saying that on this forum? Have you even SEEN the sticker? It has no text on it...it has nothing. There's nothing to distinguish it from something that could've been put there just to hold it in over a OMGYOURPHONEISGONNADIE sticker.
You really don't have any concept of contracts... unless something is stated that it will in fact void the warranty, the warranty is in tact. Don't piss on me over bad lawyering on Dell's part. If anything, you should be thanking people that are griping about this to get it changed.
That they claim I voided a warranty is where it has merit. Again, L2Contract. I did nothing in violation of the warranty. There was no warning that removing the sticker or the card itself violated the warranty - that's really the end of the story. At BEST you could argue that there's a very minor warning at the end of the manual...I mean, dead on the back of it, that mentions that it may make the phone unusable - but again, nothing that mentions that it's a violation of a warranty. Beyond that, even MS' KB article are MUCH less dire than that and are pretty much summed up as 'you might lose some data'.
Yes - it is. However MS is not 'separate' in this case - they were the ones in the store telling me I voided the warranty when 1.) nothing indicates that such an action would and 2.) They're not the warranty holders.
Yeah, I went reeeeeeeally far out of my way. You know...looking in the same place I'd look in other phones for SD slots, e.g. my HD2 and seeing what was pretty obviously one...yeah, that took some brainpower.
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Man its all this type of crap they probably are delaying the release. To make sure the damned stickers are legible. Joking but kind of serious
ratchetjaw said:
Man its all this type of crap they probably are delaying the release. To make sure the damned stickers are legible. Joking but kind of serious
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Maybe...but I think it'd be more that there are just general hardware problems with the device.
Someone from the MS store contacted me, so I'm trying to see if they can either correct or confirm the associate's story about not even the certified cards being able to be used.
nathanysmith said:
Really? You're saying that on this forum? Have you even SEEN the sticker? It has no text on it...it has nothing. There's nothing to distinguish it from something that could've been put there just to hold it in over a OMGYOURPHONEISGONNADIE sticker.
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I think thats the whole point, most people are not buying phones and heading to xda to find out where the hidden storage card is, you are obviously not the average user but just because you are more knolwedgeable doesnt change the fact that the storage card was not meant to be accessed and changed, whether by someone with a degree in astrophysics or the milkman and playing the injured consumer and quoting contracts doesnt make your claim any more valid.
nathanysmith said:
You really don't have any concept of contracts... unless something is stated that it will in fact void the warranty, the warranty is in tact. Don't piss on me over bad lawyering on Dell's part. If anything, you should be thanking people that are griping about this to get it changed.
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I fail to see what contracts have to do with you messing up your phone so badly that you needed to return it.
I also fail to see why Dell is at fault for your botched swap job. I mean, everything you've said so far seems to be a lot of bluster to cover for your own incompetence. Funnily enough, just keeping your failure to yourself would have avoided a lot of this drama.
In summary: Contracts have nothing to do with your lack of skill or forethought into pulling vital components from your phone impulsively on the ride home. You keep bringing up "contracts" like it means anything. You may understand contracts, but you sure don't understand cell phones.
efjay said:
I think thats the whole point, most people are not buying phones and heading to xda to find out where the hidden storage card is
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I didn't come here to find out where it was. I knew where it was ...see previous post
you are obviously not the average user but just because you are more knolwedgeable doesnt change the fact that the storage card was not meant to be accessed and changed, whether by someone with a degree in astrophysics or the milkman and playing the injured consumer and quoting contracts doesnt make your claim any more valid.
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Well, it absolutely does. If I can engage in a supposed warranty voiding action without notice that said action voids a warranty...it doesn't void the warranty and in fact is not a condition of the warranty. There's no warning on the sticker. There's no text anywhere. I'm really not sure what's difficult to understand about that.
Hi all!
I'll take it down if needed but I was wondering if such a petition is worth to do:
www(dot)change(dot)org/petitions/asustek-computers-open-nvflash-apx-and-allow-rooting-of-tablet (hmmm, still can't post links, oh well)
As said, there's been work done, but it could actually bring some fresh air to everyone if ASUS decided to get their butts off of the seat and stop the lock&run game because people will get exhausted.
Plus I honestly believe that the more they lock it, the more they're gonna cut themselves from the non-ignorable proportion of people who want at least the freedom to be able to tweak things.
After all, you can do it with almost everything around, even in high-tech.
(tw.asus.com is hard to reach and asus.com is ooo, If anyone have a good email address to submit for the petitioners, I'll take it )
Any thoughts? (or any mistakes on the petition to point out? English not being my native language)
Thx
I don't think this would be very successful. Asus has both a right and a reason not to allow root access. For one, you always have those knuckleheads out there who would love to try and overclock their processor to 6Ghz just to see if they can do it and then they would expect Asus to provide warranty coverage. Not to mention those who brick their device, etc.
There may also be other issues we don't even know about. Perhaps Netflix and other DRM or secure based apps would claim this is a violation of their agreements and pull support which, in the long run, isn't worth it for Asus because only a small minority of people do things like rooting, etc.
Anyway, as much as I like to have root and cool ROMs like Cyanogen, I wouldn't sign this petition even if I thought it would go somewhere. I just feel that, in the end, it would raise the price of the product so they could cover those people mentioned in paragraph 1.
I totally get your points.
This is why it can be proposed, as HTC does, on the counterpart of losing part or all of warranty coverage for misuse.
I didn't think of DRM support initially as the services mentioned aren't available out of the US anyways, but still, does HTC have such a partnership? (They do mention the potential loss of DRM protected content access)...
But you're right at the same time, I just feel trapped with a TF101G/B80 which I'd just like a few extra functionality that many others are playing with *shrugs* I still do believe that opening the device a bit more can help it's success, but maybe that's me being naive.
Can't say I worry about the 6Ghz OC type of problem domain, because if someone does that and expects warrety coverage they obviously have larger problems for our culture. I'd also say it's fair to just write in the warentee, "VOID IF ROOTED OR TAMPERED WITH", and adapt the definitions in legalise or simple English suitably. And then point to that when someone does something stupid: You seriously voided your warentee pal.
What is a serious issue to think about is issues like the Netflix example. That is one that could have many and far reaching implecations, both for the device and the platform if it becomes the norm. It's also sth I have never thought about. Perhaps because of how I view the whole DRM thing.
e.g. you can't let me play your game on my PC *and* stop my neighbore from pirating it, unless you can pretty much reduce it to a video stream with some interactivity instead of how contemporary games are done. It can be made harder but in the end, DRM can't provide the level of protection companies want.
Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk
Spidey01 said:
Can't say I worry about the 6Ghz OC type of problem domain, because if someone does that and expects warrety coverage they obviously have larger problems for our culture. I'd also say it's fair to just write in the warentee, "VOID IF ROOTED OR TAMPERED WITH", and adapt the definitions in legalise or simple English suitably. And then point to that when someone does something stupid: You seriously voided your warentee pal.
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Click to collapse
But that's just it. It's not always possible for asus to tell if someone has tampered or rooted their device. This is the age of electronics. Tracks can very easily be covered. The knucklehead who tried to OC to 6ghz is probably also clever enough to cover his tracks and claims it just stopped working one day. The only way for asus to tell if the thing's been tampered with is if they spend the time, money, and resources to investigate, which in the end isn't even worth it.
In this case, I agree with Asus. I rooted mine from day one and has been doing some tweakings under the hood the last few months. That said, I don't think most people out there are up to it.
Taking it down.
Mixed feeling... I understand (though not agree with all) the mentionned points.
They could do it if they wanted.
And I doubt HTC raised the prices of their devices in allowing people to root it (and they cover their asses anyways, on repair coverage and loss of DRM's to avoid having to)
I'm simply gonna tag ASUS as being a bit lame, my only hope is some advancements on the SBK crackdown.
[Hint for NVidia: add a (false-positive proof) read-only max-temp-reached register accessible through APX, could help putting away some OC misuse]
I don't understand. Windows laptops are "rootable" and no one does any fuss about it. Why Transformer isn't? I won't buy another Asus tablet if I can't root it or change the OS if I want - I will look for other options (like HTC with their N-trig stylus). If they worry about OC they should state that rooting voids warranty. But I think the main problem for them is DRM which I don't even want on my device - if they made the device rootable probably Netflix and others would oppose it or sth (I don't know why - it's working on rooted device right now anyway).
I read the courts reviewed the ruling of phones being legal to root, but then judged that Tablets were a different story. I heard that with tablets to legally be able to root, you have to contact the manufacturer and get permission per ruling. I know this is bogus to many people, and most of you here I assume wouldnt care either way what the courts rule. So this thread is about the legality of the issue, not really meant for debate. I just want to know if it is considered legal to root the Nexus 7, is it allowed?
Righteous Joe said:
I read the courts reviewed the ruling of phones being legal to root, but then judged that Tablets were a different story. I heard that with tablets to legally be able to root, you have to contact the manufacturer and get permission per ruling. I know this is bogus to many people, and most of you here I assume wouldnt care either way what the courts rule. So this thread is about the legality of the issue, not really meant for debate. I just want to know if it is considered legal to root the Nexus 7, is it allowed?
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Where did you read this? Doesn't sound right to be honest, not sure how rooting a tablet would differ in a legal sense from rooting a phone, they are near enough the same device after all. Ultimately it is your device that you own so you are free to do with it as you wish, its not as if you're rooting will have a major impact on anyone else. Unless you are caught installing pirate apps which would be considered as illegal.
Writing "I read [...]" and then not following up with a source means you completely lack credibility
Maybe you are referring to the decision cited in these sources
http://www.theverge.com/2012/10/25/3556740/copyright-dmca-jailbreak-unlock-mod-ruling
https://www.federalregister.gov/art...pyright-protection-systems-for-access-control
Take your time and read these sources
Also take your time to read up on material by senior xda members on the difference between rooting your device and unlocking your bootloader. It basically renders your "illegal to root" statement completely invalid.
Moving back to the Nexus 7, although the ruling is vague as #@!$ when it comes to tablets, your not forcibly breaking open the bootloader; its practically an on/off switch on the N7--Google is not coming after you.
The common belief that jailbreaking is legal is wrong. US Digital Millennium Copyright Act was challenged, and it was accepted that it's legal to "jailbreak" a device for the purpose of carrier unlock, but not for other purpose.
As most tablets don't have 3G and thus no carrier......
Jailbreaking is illegal for iPad.
But unlocking and rooting a Nexus 7 is a whole different story. You don't need a exploit, thus you are not breaking any protection, that is why it is legal.
At least in the EU.
Sent from my GT-I9300 using xda app-developers app
There is a further distinction that can be drawn. In the case of an Android tablet it is using an OS that is in effect free of any restrictions - so you can "copy the book, change it and publish it, provided you acknowledge the source", contrast this with Microsoft and Apple ......sue,damages etc.
CrazyPeter said:
The common belief that jailbreaking is legal is wrong. US Digital Millennium Copyright Act was challenged, and it was accepted that it's legal to "jailbreak" a device for the purpose of carrier unlock, but not for other purpose.
As most tablets don't have 3G and thus no carrier......
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Click to collapse
You are incorrect good sir. The jaillbreaking exemption, which is no longer valid, didn't come about from a legal challenge. It was granted by the Librarian of Congress under the normal review process that takes place every three years. Furthermore, rooting phones for purposes of installing and operating legally obtained software is also exempted.
To address the OP, there's a lot of FUD going around about rooting tablets. The factual reality is that absolutely nothing at all has changed. Rest assured that, contrary to the sensationalism from some, the sky is in no danger of falling.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
If rooting a tablet (tablet computer) is illegal, then why don't we get only user account on windows (Administrator account locked) and when we install Ubuntu, why are we not only provided with our user folder and don't have access to anything else? It's exactly the same. I don't know why Android, as basically another one of oh-so-many Linux distros would be the only one, where you are not aloud to access root folders? Linux is open source, and it is your right to be provided with root access.
And since the purpose of root on Android is not installing cracked apps (you can sideload them with enabling 'outer sources'), I see absolutely no reason, why wouldn't it be legal.
Is editing your BIOS settings on PC legal? Again, I don't see why different rules would apply to desktop then to smaller version of PC (which smartphones pretty much are).
You bought the device, it's yours. Even if you decide to take it to another carrier, you paid them, you accepted the contract, you pay penalty in case you cancel the contract sooner. Just because I bought a car in Germany, doesn't mean it's suddenly illegal to drive it in Slovenia.
iOS is different issue. It's not open source, but again I don't see why jailbreaking would be illegal. Of course, installing cracked apps is different, but that's illegal anywhere.
This kind of garbage bugs be to no end... If I buy product A, then I should be able to do what ever I want to product A how ever I want, in regards to electronics. I bought the device, and no judge is going to tell me I can not unlock/root/etc it.
Just ignore...how many movies/apps have you pirated...?
Most Android OEMs LET us root. No judge can change that, nor the open-source nature of Android as an operating system.
(Most) GNU/Linux distributions do allow us to login as the root user. Rooting an Android device is the same concept as logging on as root on GNU/Linux. It's there, you're welcome to use it, but don't blame us if something goes wrong.
---------- Post added at 07:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:39 PM ----------
CrazyPeter said:
The common belief that jailbreaking is legal is wrong. US Digital Millennium Copyright Act was challenged, and it was accepted that it's legal to "jailbreak" a device for the purpose of carrier unlock, but not for other purpose.
As most tablets don't have 3G and thus no carrier......
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How many people that jailbroke their iOS devices have not installed pirated apps? Does anyone _actually_ care about the DMCA?
In other words, you can't stop a hacker.
gnustomp said:
Just ignore...how many movies/apps have you pirated...?
Most Android OEMs LET us root. No judge can change that, nor the open-source nature of Android as an operating system.
(Most) GNU/Linux distributions do allow us to login as the root user. Rooting an Android device is the same concept as logging on as root on GNU/Linux. It's there, you're welcome to use it, but don't blame us if something goes wrong.
---------- Post added at 07:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:39 PM ----------
How many people that jailbroke their iOS devices have not installed pirated apps? Does anyone _actually_ care about the DMCA?
In other words, you can't stop a hacker.
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You know what, comments like you piss me off. I have downloaded my fair share of music, but when it comes to apps I will not pirate them. These developers work their asses off to make a decent app and then put a .99 price tag on them, and you claim that that is too damn expecive? You aren't a hacker, your just a jerk. I have bought over 150 apps on the play store, and I will continue to support the developers that work oh so hard for so little.
Good day sir.
AFAinHD said:
You know what, comments like you piss me off. I have downloaded my fair share of music, but when it comes to apps I will not pirate them. These developers work their asses off to make a decent app and then put a .99 price tag on them, and you claim that that is too damn expecive? You aren't a hacker, your just a jerk. I have bought over 150 apps on the play store, and I will continue to support the developers that work oh so hard for so little.
Good day sir.
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No offense, but the overly white knight attitude is just as bad as the pirate attitude.
when google comes after me for supporting their os with a law suit for changing my devices gui via root would be the end of days. So, yeah won't happen. sony and microsoft just ban people and their mac ip on their console i'd assume if they ever did do anything, they could ban you from market?
I Am Marino said:
No offense, but the overly white knight attitude is just as bad as the pirate attitude.
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Im not trying to be a white knight, I don't care about pirating music and movies, because they are overpriced as hell, but app developers work very hard for something that they put a .99 cent price tag on. There is no reason why you should not support them.
AFAinHD said:
There is no reason why you should not support them.
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Well I see at least one reason, (which of course is valid only to some apps, not all of them), and that is usualy true to big games only:
- how long have you today to request reffunds for apps you do not like / want / can not use? 15 minutes? or is it even shorter time now? (I do not know how it is now, sorry, I only use free/ad-supported apps now)
- how long does it takes for you to download 2GB of app data? For me it is definitly a LOT longer time that 15 minutes...
- which one of these (above mentioned) apps offer some kind of trial or limited demo or something? How can you try such apps to find out whether you like it or not ?
Can you see the reason for why not to support such apps? Or at least in the first place? Of coure that it is better (for many reasons) to buy the app in the end if you like it. But you can not tell that if you can not evaluate it.
And you are wrong that these apps cost lest than $1 and thus are cheap (or at least I understand that this was something you were triing to say), most of such apps cost $5-$15, and that can be realy a lot of money if you are not from US, just because you earn $15 per hour does not mean everyone does, there are countries where people works whole day or even week for $15.
Oh, and just to be clear: I do not thing that pirating software is good thing, but sometimes it is the only way how to evaluate something. And you should be allowed do do that, right? Or would you buy a car without (at least) triing to sit in it?
All right, all right, we can just preted that the apps (or game or music or anything) which looks like we want (or need) it does not exists, but to be honest: Can you realy do that? Especially when there is no similar replacement? Or would you just happily pay any price the DEV asks, hoping that it will be usefull to you?
And one more thing:
Lot of people here is stating that court or local law or anyone forbids/encourages something - well this kind of information is totally useless if you forget to tell us in which country/region is that true.
And just to prove my point: there is a country that legaly allows downloading of audio files. Also there is a coutry that allows legaly to use pirated Operating system (namely that was true for Windows XP, not sure if they extended that somehow). Is that information usefull to you? I do not think so, unless you live there and in that case, you should already now...
..
I don't mean to derail the thread but since it's been brought up I wanted to address this quickly.
AFAinHD said:
Im not trying to be a white knight, I don't care about pirating music and movies, because they are overpriced as hell, but app developers work very hard for something that they put a .99 cent price tag on. There is no reason why you should not support them.
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I'm going to try to do this without any self promotion.
It's funny that you say that. As a musician and songwriter who sells tracks at $.99 a piece (and have spent more money on recording equipment and music distribution to never break even), I beg to differ, and I don't have a band helping me out. I put out my albums for the cost of total tracks or maybe a dollar less for that "added value" feeling. Or I let people pay whatever they want thanks to my official online store giving me the ability to set that.
I'm not trying to start an argument or fight, but I just want to enlighten you on this point. Whether it's music or app development, creativity and hard thinking and writing\coding is involved. In both processes there is a lot of trial and error, time and money spent. The pricing of an app or a music track seems to be dependent on the value to the people as seen by the authors. Music seems more standardized whereas different apps will have different prices depending on what they do. But that does not mean there was any less effort or creativity put into music or films than an app. To offset the pirating a lot of musicians at least ask to recommend to friends in hopes that someone buys our tracks to help offset the cost of what we had to pay to put the music out there in the first place.
In the days of filesharing about 8 or so years ago I had downloaded some music. Those programs got old and died, and since then I have only bought CDs or used legal streaming services, typically from those artists I used to download music from. Now that my music is for sale in places I understand the arguments both in favor of free sharing and against it. There's a solution to both.
In either case, in the end we all just want to make even a little money for our creations. I don't think it's logical to suggest that music is overpriced because doesn't take as much effort as app development.
Back to your regularly scheduled programming....
This i totally agree with .This can stand for anything rather its music apps or even a drawing of a home done in Cad or even a book.. Think if you spend 2 years writing a Book. Then two days after its released you see it on a pirated site when its being retailed for 13.00 .While you have 2 years worth of bills piled up unpaid.Hoping the book sales. App developers often go thru this same thing. I like most everyone else did download some music in the past.NO longer would I do so . Never software and never reading material. Now if its not legal its not coming in our home or on my devices..If its to expensive the author or developer did not want to sell it.
Bottom line is support the people who Create the things that make your life enjoyable and easier to live. They wanna make ends meet to.. But its not really about the money its about what is right and wrong..
sgtpepper64 said:
I don't mean to derail the thread but since it's been brought up I wanted to address this quickly.
I'm going to try to do this without any self promotion.
It's funny that you say that, as a musician and songwriter who sells tracks at $.99 a piece (and have spent more money on recording equipment and music distribution to never break even), I beg to differ, and I don't have a band helping me out. I put out my albums for the cost of total tracks or maybe a dollar less for that "added value" feeling. Or I let people pay whatever they want thanks to my official online store giving me the ability to set that.
I'm not trying to start an argument or fight, but I just want to enlighten you on this point. Whether it's music or app development, creativity and hard thinking and writing\coding is involved. In both processes there is a lot of trial and error, time and money spent. The pricing of an app or a music track seems to be dependent on the value to the people as seen by the authors. Music seems more standardized whereas different apps will have different prices depending on what they do. But that does not mean there was any less effort or creativity put into music or films than an app. To offset the pirating a lot of musicians at least ask to recommend to friends in hopes that someone buys our tracks to help offset the cost of what we had to pay to put the music out there in the first place.
In the days of filesharing about 8 or so years ago I had downloaded some music. Those programs got old and died, and since then I have only bought CDs or used legal streaming services, typically from those artists I used to download music from. Now that my music is for sale in places I understand the arguments both in favor of free sharing and against it. There's a solution to both.
In either case, in the end we all just want to make even a little money for our creations. I don't think it's logical to suggest that music is overpriced because doesn't take as much effort as app development.
Back to your regularly scheduled programming....
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I was pretty hyped every since this device got announced. Saving up my money and arranging for shipping beforehand so I could snatch it ASAP but actually no, I won't be getting this device at all.
I'll tell you the experience I went through when I tried asking their support if they'll release 16gb version of the device so I don't end up regretting jumping the gun on the 12gb one.
Whole experience was dodgy af from support not being able to speaking proper English at all to constantly being asked for personal data that I'd later realise wasn't being user to better answer my questions at all.
For example I asked if there's a trade in program and they reply asking what device I'm using. I take that as OK there is but maybe not every device is elegible so I reply with my current device only to be then told that there's no program at all??? ( Why did they ask what device I'm using then idk and they haven't bothered answering when I questioned them... )
I was also asked where I currently live when I asked if there's a 16gb version on the way and what it would cost. That was before I asked for trade in program, so I thought they might be asking in order to tell me the price for my region but no. Once again, they have no idea if 16gb version is in production and they just inquired for my info again for no reason.
Mind you, the English is completely broken and the reply turnaround is few days to a week per response at best, so I really didn't feel like dragging the conversation around asking why they want to know all of that beforehand.
After all of that I don't feel like I can trust a company like this not to be looking into my personal data during my use of the device. Paying 700$ or maybe upwards of 800$ if 16gb version ever gets released is way too much for not having an ease of mind of what might be going on in the background.
I understand that their reasoning for where I live might be justified but never in the conversation did they inform me ahead of time on what the purpose is for all the data collection is. They haven't answered why they want to know what device I'm using if there's no program in the first place so I'll assume that previous reasoning was also an excuse thought up to justify their inquiry.
I'm pretty bummed to see that as a company they haven't changed much from their early days. They might have improved the OS, introduced better hardware and all but the core of the company is still both shady af and completely non organised.
This all plays a major factor in why I won't be getting this device, just thought I'd let others know too if they are thinking of going for it.
Picture is below, you will have to read from the bottom to the top to follow the conversation.
I don't want to nit pick. you are right in some points. but I'd like to point out a few things.
you're giving them questions in English, which they need to translate then organize into a response then re translate it back for you to understand.
They are based in Hong Kong, So I would assume the number of local English speaking people a small sub section of an already crippled tech giant (due to US sanctions of ZTE) have the space to employ customer service agents in English. when their main market is China.
They tell you to look at the site for information on the sale of the devices in question.
After your question of If a device with 16gb of ram would be available. if the site says no, there is no plan.
so you had your answer to your original Question. they asked what region so they could confirm what devices where available to you. because some parts of the world cannot receive their devices.
your question on the 12gb to 16gb upgrade must have been a mis-understanding.
you can read that in their response. they said there would be no way to upgrade a 12gb to 16gb. to them thats a technical impossibility.
they didn't understand that you meant trade back your 12gb RM5S for a 16GB version.
they though that you were asking if you could upgrade the hardware of your 12gb model.
at least thats how I understood their answer of your question.
they may have asked you what device you where using because they honestly though you were contacting support for a Nubia device. when you said you had a different phone altogether, they were trying to tell you that they did not support your device. as in Nubia don't do customer support for Huawei.
after that you blew up at them for general question to find out what market you were in to see if you would be able to even buy any model.
you took that way out of bounds dude. they are still trying to do their best. with awful translation programs.
your questions were understandable to an English person but you got to understand WHO you're chatting with. and how they will see and understand your messages.
even putting some some of your messages into google translate. going to Chinese simplified then translating it back to English what do you get? because that's only half of about what they will understand from your questions.
I think they did a professional job of explaining to you that you needed to look at the information on the market site of your location. and that they couldn't give you support with your Huawei because its not a supported model of their Nubia support team.
Also you should Hide your personal Email address when posting things online.
Patrick Morgan said:
I don't want to nit pick. you are right in some points. but I'd like to point out a few things.
you're giving them questions in English, which they need to translate then organize into a response then re translate it back for you to understand.
They are based in Hong Kong, So I would assume the number of local English speaking people a small sub section of an already crippled tech giant (due to US sanctions of ZTE) have the space to employ customer service agents in English. when their main market is China.
They tell you to look at the site for information on the sale of the devices in question.
After your question of If a device with 16gb of ram would be available. if the site says no, there is no plan.
so you had your answer to your original Question. they asked what region so they could confirm what devices where available to you. because some parts of the world cannot receive their devices.
your question on the 12gb to 16gb upgrade must have been a mis-understanding.
you can read that in their response. they said there would be no way to upgrade a 12gb to 16gb. to them thats a technical impossibility.
they didn't understand that you meant trade back your 12gb RM5S for a 16GB version.
they though that you were asking if you could upgrade the hardware of your 12gb model.
at least thats how I understood their answer of your question.
they may have asked you what device you where using because they honestly though you were contacting support for a Nubia device. when you said you had a different phone altogether, they were trying to tell you that they did not support your device. as in Nubia don't do customer support for Huawei.
after that you blew up at them for general question to find out what market you were in to see if you would be able to even buy any model.
you took that way out of bounds dude. they are still trying to do their best. with awful translation programs.
your questions were understandable to an English person but you got to understand WHO you're chatting with. and how they will see and understand your messages.
even putting some some of your messages into google translate. going to Chinese simplified then translating it back to English what do you get? because that's only half of about what they will understand from your questions.
I think they did a professional job of explaining to you that you needed to look at the information on the market site of your location. and that they couldn't give you support with your Huawei because its not a supported model of their Nubia support team.
Also you should Hide your personal Email address when posting things online.
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I wish I could give you a hundred likes for this.
As a matter of fact, I was equally thinking along the same lines as your response when I was reading his post.
To OP: I think it's time for you to do a little research on your own first rather than immediately looking for ways to point a finger.
Just my 2 cents
I gotta agree with Patrick, but at the same time I got hosed by Nubia with my RM5G and had a completely different yet still terrible experience. My phone arrived uncalibrated, I talked with Nubia Admin's and they agreed my phone was not calibrated correctly because the camera will switch from 16mp to 64mp, but the image quality is exactly the same, so the camera app is showing it's 64mp, but it can't produce it because it was never calibrated before it left the factory. Which means there's a whole batch of RM5G's out there that don't actually take 64mp photo's. I contacted Nubia countless times, they only actually responded twice, the first time they were really nice, apologized for the phone not working and gladly offered to take it back for an exchange. and after giving them all of my info, just like stated above where they're data hungry. They ghosted me. I tried again about a month later because the finger print sensor also stopped working and again, same process, ,they were nice, offered to take it back and exchange for a new unit, gave them all of my info again for the return label, and just like clock work, ghosted me.. fast forward 8 MONTHS LATER, I got an email (this was only a few weeks ago now) where they actually followed up asking if I still needed a return request for my phone. I said yes, they then asked for all of my info.. again.. even though it was literally in the previous email they responded to.. but sure, play by their game, gave it all again.. and ghosted.. it's been a few weeks now, probably going on about a month actually and I still haven't heard back from them lol.
To put it simply, they do not care about customers, Nubia is about making money, they just want their product in your hand, once it is, peace, later, seeya, goodbye.
So I gave up on them. I have all of it documented, made a few youtube videos, people hated me for bad mouthing Nubia but in all reality they're a terrible company. The RM5G is actually a deadly phone now that everything is fixed, but you gotta remember this is a phone that on launch showed up to my door unable to make a phone call because the software was so broken the microphone would turn off if you made a call, it only worked on speaker phone lol. It couldn't send MMS messages, and mine specifically doesn't even have a calibrated 64mp camera. It's complete junk. It looks cool, ,the idea is there, the platform is there, the software is trash, and the company should probably be stripped of rights to sell uncompleted products.
It was as later confirmed that the launch software was Beta because they didn't have it done for their launch day, so like I said earlier, clearly shows that rather than delaying launch to fix bugs, they cared more about getting their phones in our hands rather than actually having a good product.
I mean, it's great now, basically everything is fixed but the soiled taste in my mouth from this company makes this phone look good on my desk, I don't daily it, and if anyone asks about it I tell them it was almost cool but the company ruined it and I don't recommend people buy them because of Nubia's practices.
Kinda like what they did here with the 5S lol, lets just change the logo on the glass.. add a little piece of metal to the centre.. .boom, new phone, new software that actually works.. no we won't fix the 5G yet.. we'll make a new phone for $10 more instead of fixing the actually identical phone already in the wild that's riddled with issues.
Nubia cares more about making money, than they do making a good product. It's been working for them this long, why would they change? Sure it's shady but it's business, it sucks but that's the world we live in, if we don't like it, then we just won't buy their products again. I'm one of those. I still play with the 5G from time to time but I wouldn't daily this thing if my life depended on it.. Which not as life threatening as suggested, but I soft bricked my S20 ultra while playing around with One UI 3.0 flashes, and instead of putting my SIM into the RM5G, I just decided it was better to go without a phone for 3 days until I fixed my S20 Ultra than it was to deal with the bugs and headaches that follow with the RM5G.
Which is why I'm back, 8.11 came out and it's suppose to be good so I'm giving it another shot, maybe I could use it as an Android game console to toss in my bag or something if it's stable enough.
Anyway, kind of went off on a rant there. Nubia is trash, the phones are cool, but if you buy one, just pretend you're buying something without warranty, no customer support, and you're entirely on your own once you get it. You buy these phones AS-IS because Nubia doesn't give an F about you after the sale is completed lol
bencozzy said:
This is the redmagic 5s forum I think you posted on the wrong place.
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It's still the same phone, they both even officially use the same firmware now. 5G and 5S are the same phone, they just have a different piece of glass on the back.
However, I was just responding in coordinate to the OP having a bad experience with the company Nubia, as I also had a bad experience with the company, it's still relevant as the device doesn't matter when we're addressing the customer support we received.
Guys I need some help. If I am posting in the wrong place I apologize and please redirect me. My less than a month old 5S pulse (Christmas present we got both his and hers) literally just died while I was scrolling through my WeChat! I really loved the phone though up to that point. No the phone was not abused....I baby it! It had more than 90% charge at the time, was not running any apps so no stress, laying on the table beside me so not in my pocket or being charged. Literally just watching a photo on the screen and it suddenly dimmed black and died. No sign, no drama. Power button and volume buttons dont do anything....any ideas as to what to do are welcome :-(
I don't see a support thread for 5S here ...only 5G hence my above post
Phew thank God I saw this thread. Was really interested in the redmagic 6 pro, at £600 but stories like these freak me right out, I guess I'll be staying away.
Patrick Morgan said:
I don't want to nit pick. you are right in some points. but I'd like to point out a few things.
you're giving them questions in English, which they need to translate then organize into a response then re translate it back for you to understand.
They are based in Hong Kong, So I would assume the number of local English speaking people a small sub section of an already crippled tech giant (due to US sanctions of ZTE) have the space to employ customer service agents in English. when their main market is China.
you took that way out of bounds dude. they are still trying to do their best. with awful translation programs.
your questions were understandable to an English person but you got to understand WHO you're chatting with. and how they will see and understand your messages.
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Click to collapse
Hi, I'll jump into the conversation as it's similarly relevant to my case.
I agree with the rest of your arguments, but including the part where you, yourself mentioned possible nitpicking & in a limited context, will side with the OP.
I have a feeling you try to see the best in people & also in this case, focus on the "human being".
That's noble of you, but let's keep in mind that at the end of a day, we're (as client) making a financial transaction & expecting/owed reliable support. It's not the client's worry how the supplier (in this case, Nubia) sorts out his support structures, but the supplier, needs to manage client expectations & deliver a service of relevant quality.
1: I'd agree with the OP, that Nubia has terrible support.
- being fully aware that they are providing a global service (assuming OP reached out via the global or EU portal), should provide adequate support - meaning service desk agents or support staff with adequate command of the English language.
- responsiveness - my particular case has echoed OP's experience - terrible response times. To the extent of "some benefit", they did follow up on some questions with a week's/week & a half, delay.
- knowledge & eagerness to provide client satisfaction - they will never tell you that they don't know something but will consult internally & come back to the client with a satisfactory response (I was asking about the reason behind the differences in power adapters in the different regions - global/china).
- misc - not following their legal obligations & releasing adequate GPL code within required timelines (example: kernel).
- the device is crippled on unlocking the bootloader (fingerprint scanner stops working). Understandably, any activity AFTER unlocking a bootloader (example: messing with system files) is not RedMagic's worry, but the sole fact of just unlocking the bootloader should not cripple functionality. Relevant behaviour in other OEMs (Sony Xperia - the camera stopped working after unlocking the BL, but they fixed their approach in time).
2: they will not take ownership for blunders & do their best endeavours to make it up to the client.
Case: I ordered my phone on the 10th of April, it was stuck in processing for 2 weeks (their shipment policy mentions a maximum of 4 days for processing). It's still not here (major city in the EU). Even in the most pessimistic variant, the device should have been at my doorstep, yesterday at the latest & I'm looking at a delivery near the end of the week.
They cancelled the first FedEx shipment, were not forthcoming/(fully) transparent regarding the cause.
Mistakes happen, but if I were a supplier who's keen on building brand loyalty & focused on the quality of my service, I'd go miles to try to make it up to the client - in this case, I would have at least expected the fastest shipping & maybe a gesture of reparation (some accessories, or at the very least discounts for purchases in the future).
The only thing which kept me from going for the Black Shark 4 Pro was the absence of an under-display fingerprint scanner. I admit that RedMagic seems to be the current leader of the gaming phone niche, but other OEMs have caught onto this segment & in a year or two, should RM keep their current approach/practices, will start losing relevancy, as at the end of the day, client satisfaction is all that matters & this should be the foremost priority of any business owner.
adwinp said:
Hi, I'll jump into the conversation as it's similarly relevant to my case.
I agree with the rest of your arguments, but including the part where you, yourself mentioned possible nitpicking & in a limited context, will side with the OP.
I have a feeling you try to see the best in people & also in this case, focus on the "human being".
That's noble of you, but let's keep in mind that at the end of a day, we're (as client) making a financial transaction & expecting/owed reliable support. It's not the client's worry how the supplier (in this case, Nubia) sorts out his support structures, but the supplier, needs to manage client expectations & deliver a service of relevant quality.
1: I'd agree with the OP, that Nubia has terrible support.
- being fully aware that they are providing a global service (assuming OP reached out via the global or EU portal), should provide adequate support - meaning service desk agents or support staff with adequate command of the English language.
- responsiveness - my particular case has echoed OP's experience - terrible response times. To the extent of "some benefit", they did follow up on some questions with a week's/week & a half, delay.
- knowledge & eagerness to provide client satisfaction - they will never tell you that they don't know something but will consult internally & come back to the client with a satisfactory response (I was asking about the reason behind the differences in power adapters in the different regions - global/china).
- misc - not following their legal obligations & releasing adequate GPL code within required timelines (example: kernel).
- the device is crippled on unlocking the bootloader (fingerprint scanner stops working). Understandably, any activity AFTER unlocking a bootloader (example: messing with system files) is not RedMagic's worry, but the sole fact of just unlocking the bootloader should not cripple functionality. Relevant behaviour in other OEMs (Sony Xperia - the camera stopped working after unlocking the BL, but they fixed their approach in time).
2: they will not take ownership for blunders & do their best endeavours to make it up to the client.
Case: I ordered my phone on the 10th of April, it was stuck in processing for 2 weeks (their shipment policy mentions a maximum of 4 days for processing). It's still not here (major city in the EU). Even in the most pessimistic variant, the device should have been at my doorstep, yesterday at the latest & I'm looking at a delivery near the end of the week.
They cancelled the first FedEx shipment, were not forthcoming/(fully) transparent regarding the cause.
Mistakes happen, but if I were a supplier who's keen on building brand loyalty & focused on the quality of my service, I'd go miles to try to make it up to the client - in this case, I would have at least expected the fastest shipping & maybe a gesture of reparation (some accessories, or at the very least discounts for purchases in the future).
The only thing which kept me from going for the Black Shark 4 Pro was the absence of an under-display fingerprint scanner. I admit that RedMagic seems to be the current leader of the gaming phone niche, but other OEMs have caught onto this segment & in a year or two, should RM keep their current approach/practices, will start losing relevancy, as at the end of the day, client satisfaction is all that matters & this should be the foremost priority of any business owner.
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- Nit picking, in terms of what device to buy, its a personal call. if you prefer to side with another that is totally OK and is not my problem.
- For seeing the best in people, you've not read my posts on Nubia support and their lack of actual support I've written a few times here on XDA.
in a basic manner, if the phone turns on, and the basic features advertised and (mentioned in the small print) is working as described, all other features and options are of a personal preference.
Features like - what do you mean I can't enable and disable the fan from the dropdown notification menu? or why is NFC not a togglable tile in the drop down menu either? ( both options have been added by custom app developer on our Telegram group) but Nubia have stated it was not intended and wont be added. (but they added those options in the 6 series devices {oh did they now?}) - strange how those that have already paid them money have been left behind on features that would be very easy to add) ( the code is freely available on github)
- Global service to sell devices. support its a toss up based on warranty ownership. (its why they only support devices that are bought directly from them) all stock is shipped from Hong Kong. its a Chinese business selling stuff from china. they use a translation app / program to communicate with most customers. there is a few people like Jerry here, that have decent enough command of the english language, but still fails to understand some things. their staff are all ... ALL Chinese. English is not the only Language in the world so they have to adapt to all other languages too. (redmagic Phones are actually sold more in the Indian / Arab regions of the world outside of the Asian / Chinese markets. so English customer services is actually a few steps below any kind of priority before their other more paying customer regions. which covers their response time. I usually get a 3-5 day time line. (maybe I'm more polite about my messages to redmagic.gg ?? ) maybeI dont know.
- My last message to them was about the current bug-list for the 8.59/7.60 roms all I got was. thanks we will forward to the department responsible. .. some 5 or so weeks ago. Go team red for that awesomely fast R&D department - Not.
- GPL source codes. ? what GPL source? were does it say they need to provide adequate sources? does this mean Nubia as well as almost every other OEM have broken the law?? OMgosh we need to bring all the peoples to court.
almost all OEM release old broken non up to date sources. even Nubia, Sony, Samsung, Xiaomi, IQOO, POCO phone, Mediatek, Qualcomm, Etc you will always find a few devcies that quite literally have no source at all published anywhere, and then you'll find sources that are so broken, with base drivers and other stuff that even making hardly boots on the required hardware. needin additional work to get booting, then bug fixed to get stable. nothing like the stock kernels that the oems release with up to date roms. for Nubia for example - the current A11 kernel they released is a almost direct copy of the base Android 11 kernel. just without some needed things to actually compile and boot. (even the triggers) you gotta make those yourself. - kernel source is provided as required by law. take Nubia to court if you need any more sources I'm sure google will help with that eventually in about 40 years.
fingerprint sensor being corrupted when unlocking bootloader is not a bug. Its actually a feature added to the device by Qualcomm. According to Jerry it was done on purpose and is not a bug.
Shipping and processing, sometimes can literally be out of their hands. with covid now some companies are required by law to close for 2 weeks. at their own loss, instead of advertising that their shipping processing center was closed or limited, its possible it was on hold for 2 weeks due to something they couldn't deal with.
but as customer processes like these are common, writing to them to find out what's going on with a 3 days delay before writing once again with the order number and a request for a refund usually gets them to contact you pretty fast.
client satisfaction at point of sale is all that matters. once they have your money, you don't get it back.
to be honest though. Jerry has, every time I've put someone in his direction for a genuine warranty service he has been on point and helped everyone he could. his estimates are rubbish though and he should stop telling people update will be out on X day because it nearly never true and never his fault (his fault he got the date wrong, but not his fault its delayed)
he's not in charge of software development but he can give suggestions and push requests that are demanded ALOT.
So if 3 people (in my current experience here on XDA and the some 700+ people on the telegram group) there is 3 people I have personally seen report the hz refresh rate issue on youtube and instagram and other common apps like this on the new Android 11. so unless there is a big. like a few thousand people getting in Nubia's faces about this on their twitter, facebook, and other social media sites and talking about the lack of support for updates etc like myself and few other members did back in January this year to get Android 11 for the global customers Nubia will sweep most of these things under the rug until its a big pile of crap they need to clean by dealing with it.
thats the only option for companies that don't respond or help. hurt their marketing image and they'll jump to help you.
privately request, or even publicly post here on XDA where most Chinese people wouldn't even know what this site is at a first glance and you're not getting the message to the right people.
contact support. when that does not work, go social and go big. its the only way to get the message through.