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I struggled long and hard with the decision to purchase the EVO. Its competitor for my patronage was the Nexus One on T-Mobile. At last, I made my decision based upon the following criteria: 1) better hardware, 2) better network, and 3) better price. Seems a no brainer, right?
Now that what's done is done, I'm left with a sense of remorse. Over what? Openness. Fortunately, I haven't bricked my Evo yet, but there is a very real possibility that I will at some point. With no open boot loader and a carrier hellbent on closing their system, I have to break into my own phone with a bunch of borrowed hacks, the mechanics of which are about 3 miles over my head.
What was Google really trying to do? By cutting out the carrier from distribution, the carriers don't have an opportunity to bake the system with their garbageware and close the door behind them. By failing to support Google's effort, each of us makes it less likely in some small amount that Google will do this again. We sold them out for a front-facing camera and a bit more screen (with light leak).
Then there we will be on the forums complaining about those evil, freedom-hating carriers. But then, perhaps we chose this and deserve our fates.
If you really were deciding between the nexus one and the evo how come you didn't know the evo was locked .... I mean about just everyone knew this, every single phone but the nexus one its locked from the beginning give it a few days for people to release root, I had a nexus one and couldn't be more happy to have bought the evo I hope you enjoy your phone man
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Sent from my HTC Evo via the XDA Tapatalk App
Rooting isn't THAT hard. Stop being such a drama queen.
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Sent from my EVO 4G using Tapatalk Pro.
TheBiles said:
Rooting isn't THAT hard. Stop being such a drama queen.
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You do realize that we do not have full root--and might not ever have full root, right?
You also realize as time goes on that this will inevitably become more difficult?
As charged as the OP's post is, he does have a point.
aLdaRiS said:
If you really were deciding between the nexus one and the evo how come you didn't know the evo was locked .... I mean about just everyone knew this, every single phone but the nexus one its locked from the beginning give it a few days for people to release root, I had a nexus one and couldn't be more happy to have bought the evo I hope you enjoy your phone man
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Sent from my HTC Evo via the XDA Tapatalk App
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I knew the evo was locked. I was just too caught up in the specs and the excitement. I got greedy. She was hot, so I cheated. Now I'm sober and feel a sense of remorse.
nihilion_Zero said:
I knew the evo was locked. I was just too caught up in the specs and the excitement. I got greedy. She was hot, so I cheated. Now I'm sober and feel a sense of remorse.
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Why don't you just return the phone if this bugs you so much?
Shidell said:
You do realize that we do not have full root--and might not ever have full root, right?
You also realize as time goes on that this will inevitably become more difficult?
As charged as the OP's post is, he does have a point.
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I'm fairly confident that we will get NAND access fairly soon. There is no such thing as an "unhackable" device. Even now, though, it is NOT that difficult to access recovery and easily flash custom ROMs.
Just my two cents, I have only had one android phone and that was the mytouch from t-mobile. I now have the HTC - HD2 and really like it. When it comes to flashing roms, especially for someone new to winmo like me, it can be a bit scary. The developers have a HSPL flash that takes away almost all the risks as long as you use common sense and read things carefully. With that said I did see where a Chef of the HD2 bricked his phone just a few days ago (I have no idea what he was attempting to do when he bricked it but it did make me realize the danger)
Thanks
Derbyman32
Yes, if the remorse is really that bad, take it back. Sprint will refund ALL of your money. Then get the Nexus One for T-Mobile for $179. No-brainer...and the N1 is still an awesome Android phone!
I've seen enough issues on this forum to know that some people have no business flashing a camera, let alone a $500 phone. These are the same people that will install a GSM radio on their CDMA phone, come here and beg for a fix only to be told "sorry, read the instructions next time." They then head to Sprint, shrug, and say "I don't know, it worked fine yesterday" in the hopes of getting the phone replaced under warranty.
I agree with the premise that they are our phones and we should be able to flash whatever we want on them; however, if *I* break my phone, I do not expect Sprint to fix it. Unfortunately, common ethical behavior such as this escapes enough that Sprint made a business decision to make it hard enough so only those competent enough to follow complex procedures succeed in taking ownership of their phones. I get that. I also knew this before buying the phone.
If it's the principle of the matter for you, you can always go back to the N1, but I'd wonder why you're here in the first place.
Me? I have enough faith in this community to undo the locks, and I'll patiently enjoy the marvel of technology the EVO is while shackled until the benefits of rooting outweigh my perceived risks in performing the procedure.
Until then, I have what I consider to be the best handheld computer on the planet. Sorry for being long winded.
jmxp69 said:
Until then, I have what I consider to be the best handheld computer on the planet. Sorry for being long winded.
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I second that emotion! And it can even make the occasional phone call, too!
nihilion_Zero said:
carrier hellbent on closing their system, I have to break into my own phone with a bunch of borrowed hacks, the mechanics of which are about 3 miles over my head.
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I don't think a LESS true statement could be said.
Sprint doesn't give two flying flips what you do with your device. They have never made a move to precent root access, and MANY of the same reps who sell these devices root when it becomes available. The phone comes locked because of security and licensing agreements.
An example for the Evo is QIK. QIK is not made by Sprint, HTC, or Google. It is its own entity who paid HTC and Sprint a great deal of money to bake this app into the firmware. It would be a violation of that agreement to allow you to remove this app by default, therefore Root access is removed.
Android, when rooted, has so many holes in the security that information on the phone (like your contact list!) would in no way be considered safe. Sprint has to make some guarantee for that information, so those holes are filled and Root accessis denied.
However, should you be one of those FEW people competent enough to handle this kind of power, and you understand that Sprint, HTC, and Google will honor to warranty for the device should you break it then go for it. None of these companies will make even a token effort to stop you.
You are, for all intents and purposes, ignored. Software updates will be made as though Root did not exist. Known issues and fixes will be sent to employees and techs as though you did not exist. Features will be advertised as stock that you might no longer have, because you no longer exist.
It's not that the "carrier is bent on closing the system" it's that they are bound be several contracts to not help you.
He makes some good points.
Android Is As Open As The Clenched Fist I’d Like To Punch The Carriers With
MG Siegler
Sep 9, 2010
This past weekend, I wrote a post wondering if Android was surging in the U.S. market because Apple was letting it? The main thought was that by remaining exclusively tied to AT&T, Apple was driving some users to choose Android, which is available on all the U.S. carriers. In the post, I posed a question: if it’s not the iPhone/AT&T deal, why do you choose Android? Nearly 1,000 people responded, and a large percentage focused on the same idea: the idea of “openness.”
You’ll forgive me, but I have to say it: what a load of crap.
In theory, I’m right there with you. The thought of a truly open mobile operating system is very appealing. The problem is that in practice, that’s just simply not the reality of the situation. Maybe if Google had their way, the system would be truly open. But they don’t. Sadly, they have to deal with a very big roadblock: the carriers.
The result of this unfortunate situation is that the so-called open system is quickly revealing itself to be anything but. Further, we’re starting to see that in some cases the carriers may actually be able to exploit this “openness” to create a closed system that may leave you crying for Apple’s closed system — at least theirs looks good and behaves as expected.
Case in point: the last couple of Android phones I’ve gotten as demo units from Google: the EVO 4G and the Droid 2, have been loaded up with crapware installed by the carriers (Sprint and Verizon, respectively). Apple would never let this fly on the iPhone, but the openness of Android means Google has basically no say in the matter. Consumers will get the crapware and they’ll like it. Not only that, plenty of this junk can’t even be uninstalled. How’s that for “open”?
And this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Earlier this year, Verizon rolled out its own V Cast app store on some BlackBerry devices. This occurred despite that fact that BlackBerry devices have their own app store (App World). From what we’re hearing, Verizon is also planning to launch this store on their Android phones as well in the future. Obviously, this store would be pre-installed, and it would likely be more prominently displayed than Android’s own Market for apps.
Does V Cast have some good content? Probably. But most of it is undoubtedly crap that Verizon is trying to sell you for a high fee. But who cares whether it’s great or it’s crap — isn’t the point of “open” supposed to be that the consumer can choose what they want on their own devices? Instead, open is proving to mean that the carriers can choose what they want to do with Android.
It’s too bad, but there is now a very real risk that the carriers are going to exploit the open system Google set up in order to create a new version of the bull**** proprietary ecosystems that they had before the iPhone came along and turned the market on its side.
And it’s not just Verizon, it’s all the carriers. One of the great features of Android is that you can install apps without going through an app store, right? Well, not if you have an a Motorola Backflip or a HTC Aria running on AT&T — they’ve locked this feature down. How? Thanks to the open Android OS.
Oh, and how about tethering? It’s one of the truly great features of Android 2.2, right? Well, not if you have a carrier that doesn’t want to support it. Google has to defer to them to enable their own native OS feature. It’s such an awesome feature — in the hands of Google. Once the carriers get their hands on it — not so much.
Speaking of Android 2.2, you know it’s out there right? You’ll be forgiven if you don’t because a whopping 4.5 percent of you Android users are currently running it, according to Google’s dashboard. And again, that’s not Google’s fault, that’s all the carriers. Incredibly, over 35 percent of you still aren’t even running any version of Android 2.x. It’s pathetic.
Apple gets crap for not supporting phones that are three years old with OS updates — the open Android system can’t even upgrade phones that are only a few months old in some cases — again, all thanks to the carriers.
The excuses for why this is run rampant. They need to tweak their custom skins, they need to test the new software, etc. It’s all a bunch of garbage. This is an open platform and yet you’re more restricted than on Apple’s supposedly closed one.
What happens when Verizon won’t update your phone to the latest greatest Android software — not because they can’t, but because they want you to upgrade to a new piece of hardware and sign the new two-year agreement that comes along with it? The game remains the same.
My point is not to bash Google — what they’ve created is an excellent mobile operating system. My point is that the same “openness” that Android users are touting as a key selling point of the OS could very well end up being its weak point. If you don’t think Verizon, AT&T, T-Mobile, and Sprint are going to try to commandeer the OS in an attempt to return to their glory days where we were all slaves to their towers, you’re being naive.
“Open” is great until you have to define it or defend it. I’m not sure Google can continue to do either in this situation.
And before all of you pros storm the comments with how great it is to root your Android phones, consider the average consumers here. They are the ones being screwed by this exploitation of “open.” Anyone with the desire to do so can fairly easily hack an iPhone too. Open is not a reason to choose Android + carrier vs. iPhone + AT&T.
Update: Oh, and one more great example Michael Prassel reminded me of in the comments — do you want Skype on your Android phone? Well, I hope you have Verizon because otherwise you won’t be able to install it. “Open.” We’re only going to see more of this, not less.
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MG Siegler is a piece of trash. All his articles about Android are flame-bait garbage.
Look for his other gems such as:
Is Android Surging Only Because Apple Is Letting It?
http://techcrunch.com/2010/09/05/apple-android/
Wait, So 20 Phones On 4 Carriers Outsold 1 Phone On 1 Carrier? Shocking.
http://techcrunch.com/2010/08/02/iphone-android-sales/
Clearly he's gone off the deep-end and is upset that Android has surpassed his oh-so beloved iphone. So now he results to attacking Android like a 3 year old.
I no longer read Tech Crunch. And you should too if you want unbiased news, which you obviously won't get from this Apple fanboy flamer.
Pure trash.
Paul22000 said:
MG Siegler is a piece of trash. All his articles about Android are flame-bait garbage.
Look for his other gems such as:
Is Android Surging Only Because Apple Is Letting It?
http://techcrunch.com/2010/09/05/apple-android/
Wait, So 20 Phones On 4 Carriers Outsold 1 Phone On 1 Carrier? Shocking.
http://techcrunch.com/2010/08/02/iphone-android-sales/
Clearly he's gone off the deep-end and is upset that Android has surpassed his oh-so beloved iphone. So now he results to attacking Android like a 3 year old.
I no longer read Tech Crunch. And you should too if you want unbiased news, which you obviously won't get from this Apple fanboy flamer.
Pure trash.
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Even if he is an iphone lover, this particular post has some validity. The carriers really are screwing android over. My brother recently bought a Droid X with verizon and asked me to help him root cause he has absolutely no clue on how to do it. He wanted tethering because verizon, like ATnT is charging extra if you want to use tethering natively. So I went a head and root his phone and the phone is nice by all means, but V-Cast was an annoying piece of sh*t that pops up NO MATTER what when you connect your phone to your PC. For users like you and I who do know how to root and reap the benefits then its no problem because we can just ADB remove everything we dont like. But what about for people like my brother? They are stuck with ****ware and functionality like tethering that SHOULD be basic and free, but are forced to pay for if they want to use it. My 2cents, go figure.
Paul22000 said:
MG Siegler is a piece of trash. All his articles about Android are flame-bait garbage.
Look for his other gems such as:
Is Android Surging Only Because Apple Is Letting It?
http://techcrunch.com/2010/09/05/apple-android/
Wait, So 20 Phones On 4 Carriers Outsold 1 Phone On 1 Carrier? Shocking.
http://techcrunch.com/2010/08/02/iphone-android-sales/
Clearly he's gone off the deep-end and is upset that Android has surpassed his oh-so beloved iphone. So now he results to attacking Android like a 3 year old.
I no longer read Tech Crunch. And you should too if you want unbiased news, which you obviously won't get from this Apple fanboy flamer.
Pure trash.
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That might be true (I haven't read his other pieces), but he's spot-on here. The fact that many (MANY) Android phones don't have any planned upgrade paths to Android 2.2 (some are still running Android 1.6!) simply because the carriers or phone manufacturers say so is quite telling. On the other hand, someone with an original iPhone, which is just turning three years old, can update their OS to 4.0 and enjoy at least some of the new features the platform has to offer.
At its core, Android is quite open. I can download the source for Android 2.2 right now, build it and run it on any ARM-compatible device without repercussion. Not so for iPhone OS. However, the experience that users actually care about is practically indifferent from its competitor and theoretically worse because carriers have much more sway in controlling it than AT&T (or any other carrier that receives it) does on the iPhone. (Verizon's future app store is a case-in-point example, especially if it "replaces" Android market on the devices that will be getting it.)
Zephyron said:
But what about for people like my brother? They are stuck with ****ware and functionality like tethering that SHOULD be basic and free, but are forced to pay for if they want to use it. My 2cents, go figure.
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Everybody has got to start somehwere.
typ_ex said:
Everybody has got to start somehwere.
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That is also true, my brother was just being a lazy ass
This is one of the reasons why carriers love Android.
Yes, it's as open as it can get.
Yes, its openness is exploited by carriers, forcing devices to be lacking functionality / installing bloatware / etc.
These things don't contradict each other.
For a "stupid" end user, there isn't much choice - not all carriers offer vanilla Android devices. On the other hand, the same goes for iPhone - whatever you got there, you got there, whatever apps are supplied by the carrier - you get, if the carrier allows you to tether - it'll make sure you pay for it, and you'll be damn sure you can't install anything unofficial.
For a bit more advanced user, openness is great - once protections are bypassed (and they're bypassed on every device), ROM developers can turn those phones into whatever they want, and since the core of the system is open, you get all the services this core offers you, and carriers can't do a thing.
Not any different from the iPhone that the writer keeps comparing to.
The points are good and true as long as they're taken away from the context of that crappy and intentionally twisted article.
Siegler and arrington are horrible writers, I feel for the other writers at techcrunch because most of the others are good. But any article by those two I take as nothing more then trolling for ad hits, even if somewhere in their crap writing is a few valid points.
If they aren't paid directly by apple they have definite stock interest.
He asks 1000 presumably non-average readers of TechCrunch why THEY chose Android and when they say "openness" he's no longer interested and wants to "consider the average consumer". Who knows what they think dude, they've been buying iPhones, go sit outside a strip mall and ask them? He is essentially arguing with himself here
I'm pretty sure all the people who realize bloatware sucks have the knowledge to do some simple Google searches on how to use ADB.
Just sayin'...
AT&T doesn't put bloatware onto their iPhone's because it's ONLY on AT&T, that in itself is a crime. I guarantee once iPhone is available on other carriers it will have some sort of crap on it... and it won't be removable at all.
You don't even have to root your Android phone to remove crap
In the UK the iPhone is available on all carriers, and there is nothing added to any of them, it's the same ROM for all, how it should be. It's one thing Apple have done right.
Rusty! said:
In the UK the iPhone is available on all carriers, and there is nothing added to any of them, it's the same ROM for all, how it should be. It's one thing Apple have done right.
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Really? Well I take back what I said then.
Even though it SHOULDN'T be this way at all. Carriers can do what the hell they want. At least I have a choice between many phones other than just one.
Meh, maybe Gingerbread will change things. I don't think bloatware deteriorates the OS as a whole.. I just think it shouldn't be there... and it's very easy to remove anyway.
Rusty! said:
In the UK the iPhone is available on all carriers, and there is nothing added to any of them, it's the same ROM for all, how it should be. It's one thing Apple have done right.
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Yeah, too bad our botched american system of using cell carriers isnt more similar to the way the rest of the world does it. Then everyone would be happi...(er)
Rusty! said:
In the UK the iPhone is available on all carriers, and there is nothing added to any of them, it's the same ROM for all, how it should be. It's one thing Apple have done right.
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Do the android phones have carrier bloat in them or are they as vanilla as the iphones?
Blueman101 said:
Yeah, too bad our botched american system of using cell carriers isnt more similar to the way the rest of the world does it. Then everyone would be happi...(er)
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Free enterprise system at its finest!
EDIT: Not sayin' everyone else is commie....
Before getting a Nexus One, i made sure i researched what android OS is and even bought a used MT3G to root the hell out of it, unroot it, flash radios do all sorts of crap to it and learn as much as i want and now i can say i am pretty confident and things have gotten easier than before.
To get an android phone for my wife i have to wait 2-3 months after a phone is released to see how much support it gets from the community that is how sad android has turned into, the nexus one is great because is open, however i will not expect samsung, lg or any carrier having the intentions on supporting old phones because they don't make money.
If carriers keep butchering android people may start looking the other way.
SiNJiN76 said:
Do the android phones have carrier bloat in them or are they as vanilla as the iphones?
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Android phones get bloatware/branding
O2 still haven't released 2.2 for the Desire over here, and Vodafone were in the middle of a huge ****storm when they released a branding OTA update when everyone was expecting Froyo.
Buying your own SIM free phone is the way forward.
greenstuffs said:
To get an android phone for my wife i have to wait 2-3 months after a phone is released to see how much support it gets from the community that is how sad android has turned into,
If carriers keep butchering android people may start looking the other way.
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Totally agree.
I would even argue that Android is worse, because you need to root in order to get the most out of it. That's the same as jailbreaking the iPhone (and at least you know that the hacking community for the iphone is going to be huge)
not necessarily, android(non-rooted) lets you do so much more then a jalbroken iphone.
I will give the author credit for calling out Android's "openness", much like the recent net neutrality things going around, the word "open" is an absolute, something that Android is very close to but still isn't 100%. But still a hell of a lot more open the Apples Draconian Totalitarianism system of ruling its users.
What bugs me about this author is his constant smear campaign about android. I can understand not liking something but really?! This guy writes article after article holding Apple in the light and scorning Android for something, then what happens, all the Apple fans ***** and moan about this feature that Android has had for months if not years, then Apple takes that idea calls it revolutionary, markets the hell out of it, then this author writes an article about how Apple is even better with this new feature that he just condemned on the Android platform.
Android is open. Open does not mean it is easy for users to modify nor does it mean that products made over Android has to be open. Anyone can download the source and do what they will with android. Cyanogenmod is an example of a group of users doing what they want with AOSP. Similarly a phone manufacturer or wireless carrier can do whatever they want with it. What people seem to misunderstand is that the manufacturer and carrier are under no obligation to make it easy (or even possible) to modify the android install on a device or use the modifications they create.
This choice was on purpose. If Google went with GPL (forcing the carriers to open their modifications) it would not have been taken up by the carriers. You can argue if this is reasonable but the fact remains the conservative carriers would not take up a GPLd OS at this time. This does not mean the OS is not open, it simply means that the product that is created by a carrier is not in the control of the user.
Just posted this on the T-mobs forums and some of this is already in the "lets get the kernel thread" but I think we should make a single source for what information HTC is giving us in case this does proceed to legal action, etc. Had to futz a little with the hyperlinks since I'm a new poster to XDA but am not a new user of this blissful place. So here it is...
I call BS on the whole thing.
I've been trying to get HTC to release the source code and also bringing up the shenanigans that they pulled on us all with this root block and internal memory bait and switch crap. Here is my dealings with HTC so far. Love the blame game they switch at the end of our discussion. I know this is a lot to read but trust me that this back and forth is quite entertaining.
MY 1ST HTC MESSAGE
To whom it may pertain to... Just purchased a HTC T-mobile G2 aka HTC Vision and have been a avid HTC supporter for quite sometime. Ever since I owned my first HTC device the codenamed blueangel. The fact that HTC would work with the developer community pulled me toward your devices. I can't believe you guys (HTC) would lock down the successor to the device that helped you start the "open" revolution. I know it was most probably T-mobile that made you do it but that is besides the point. Especially since they have blamed you in the press. You have spit it the face of the developer community and shame on you and T-mobile. This protection will be broken I have no doubt of that but the fact that HTC put it there at all is what is in question. Please don't make this a race of protection...hack...protection...hack. OPEN means we should work together not against each other. So please do the right thing and help us either root these devices or give us the kernel source to help us along. Or even better do both of the above and show you respect the dev community like we all thought you did. Below I have included the first post of a stream that will become a torrent against HTC from the XDA devs. Thanks for your cooperation.
MY 1ST HTC REPLY
We cannot comment on whether or not HTC has blocked any customer from rooting or hacking their phone. Rooting the phone may open the phone up to virus attacks and other un-secure activities, as well as introduce intended functionality, and as such is very difficult for us to support. We cannot comment on whether or not HTC, Google, or T-Mobile has blocked any customer from rooting or hacking their phone. All three companies work very closely to bring you the best experience on the phone possible. I do understand how important it is to be able to use your device to the best of its capabilities. We are not withholding the kernel; we are currently working through the legal channels that we must go through to make the kernel available to you. Each product is individually under review. When the kernel is available, you will be able to find it on developer.htc.com. I apologize for any inconvenience you may have experienced, and thank you for your patience in this matter.
MY 2ND HTC MESSAGE
I understand the position of HTC to not comment on the situation at hand even though it has already been outed in the press by T-mobile that HTC did indeed lock the phone. So either you are saying that the T-mobile press release was a hoax and HTC did nothing with write protection or HTC just want's the problem to go away. As far as not wanting us to root because of unsafe activities.... Well I don't even know where to start with that comment. We are all big boys and girls and can handle the effect of our actions. It's like saying Toyota installed a system in my car that will only let a certified technician open the hood because I may insert washer fluid into the engine instead of oil. Most companies would love it if you would void your warranty. Does it not lead to less operating cost for HTC in the long run to not support it's products because the warranties are void? You don't want me to void my warranty then do as the GPS companies do and make a disclaimer that I have to read and agree to before I go any further. Also on the subject of voiding warranties did HTC not say that G2 had 4gb's of internal storage? Yet only 1.2gb are available for use because of this lock? Back to the car analogies. If Ford says your car has 200 horse power in the brochure and (AFTER!!!!) you buy it you learn that only 50 horse power is unlocked you might be a little angry. No? I understand the position of all big companies is to play dumb until something either is forgotten or legal channels make them play smart but I do have to say that I did not expect this out of HTC. This post isn't directed at you Sarah but merely my G2 and thousands of others crippled devices. If you could pass this and my prior message to someone higher up that might at least read it and think it over it would be greatly appreciated.
MY 2ND HTC REPLY
Thank you for contacting HTC Technical Assistance Center. I do understand your desire to fully explore the G2’s potential. Let me try and address your concerns one by one. In regards to your request for source code, HTC will typically publish on developer.htc the Kernel open source code for recently released devices. HTC will normally publish this within 90 to 120 days. This time frame is within the requirements of the open source community. As for your concerns about the internal memory space, the space listed on the box and in advertisements is the total storage capacity of the phone, and in fact does exist in the phone. The majority of the space is being used to make sure your phone is running at optimal performance levels. If you require more space, you can use the provided SD Card to add media and other files. Our SD card reader can support up to 16gb of extended storage. Try and look at it along the lines of your computer. Just because on a floppy disk you had 1.44 mb of space didn’t ever mean you could use all that. There was always an amount of space you could never use. This is true for any computer type related device with storage. Big or small there’s always an amount of “floating” space needed. At this point we will be happy to document your concern with the current release state of the phone. Your concerns are being forwarded to the proper departments. Beyond the information provided, however, we would have nothing additional to release
MY 3RD HTC MESSAGE
Ummm. The reply on the 1.44mb floppy is just crazy out of bounds. Yes I understand that if I install a 1tb drive on my computer some 100mb's or so may be floating but not 500 gigs of my drive!!! You guys commandeered over HALF of the internal storage of the G2. That's just crazy. Also on the (right?) that you have to release the source code in 90-120 days.... Who made up that number? Certainly not the GPL you are supposed to adhere to. An excerpt from freedom-to-tinker talking about the G2 source code. "Perhaps HTC (and T-Mobile, distributor of the phone) should review the actual contents of the GNU Public License (v2), which stipulate the legal requirements for modifying and redistributing Linux. They state that you may only distribute derivative code if you accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable source code." Notably, there is no mention of a "grace period" or the like. The importance of redistributing source code in a timely fashion goes beyond enabling phone rooting. It is the foundation of the "copyleft" regime of software licensing that has led to the flourishing of the open source software ecosystem. If every useful modification required waiting 90 to 120 days to be built upon, it would have taken eons to get to where we are today. It's one thing for a company to choose to pursue the closed-source model and to start from scratch, but it's another thing for it to profit from the goodwill of the open source community while imposing arbitrary and illegal restrictions on the code." Please release the code. =)
MY 3RD HTC REPLY
I understand how this can be frustrating for you. To start, we are aware of a situation where the phone is not properly reflecting the correct amount of storage available on the device and we are working with T-Mobile to figure out why this is happening and how to resolve it. I appreciate your patience with it. Next, we provide a timeframe of 90-120 days for the release of the source code as a courtesy for our customer. Unfortunately, HTC Technical Support has no control over what is or is not published on our website and we can only forward the requests to our software developement team and website administrator. The code will be released and when it is you may find it on our developer website. Unfortuantely, my office only handles the technical troubleshooting of our devices stock software and hardware. I do apologize for any inconvenience that you may have experienced through this.
I SMELL WEAK SAUCE ALL OVER THIS!!!!
Are you emailing HTC America about this? Not sure what you think that will accomplish given that none of their low level engineering is done in the US. Also, what's with the rage over root? Did the labelling on your G2 box promise root or bootloader access? I thought we all went into this with the assumption this would be a consumer device and as such was fair game for any sort of anti-cracking protection.
It's not really about the protection on the device as it is that they have to release the source code when they release the devices. HTC is getting out of hand with this. Google HTC GPL violation and you'll see what I mean.
Also the box did say that it had 4gb of internal storage. That turned out to be as true as me saying "I have a 12 inch **** but only when I have a certain signed key unlockable erection."
simobile said:
It's not really about the protection on the device as it is that they have to release the source code when they release the devices. HTC is getting out of hand with this. Google HTC GPL violation and you'll see what I mean.
Also the box did say that it had 4gb of internal storage. That turned out to be as true as me saying "I have a 12 inch **** but only when I have a certain signed key unlockable erection."
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lmfaooooooooooo i died reading this man hahahahahaha im in tears man. but that is true tho. what shocked is that this guys actually read and replied your messages. unbelievable, i would have thought they would send you one of those monotone messages like "thanks for contacting us, we appreciate your concern and we will get back to you type bologne " this shows that htc aint that bad but this still sucks, for now. two things lead me to believe that its gonna get rooted permanently:
1: this phone is bound to have updates which obviously isnt the stock that the phone came with. if this was a computer chip or whatever then any phone that comes with it wont recieve any updates because it will return to original way it came in the box right?
2: it will be really pointless releasing the source code if it wouldnt help with the rooting.
im not the best when it comes with source codes and rooting, im just thinking out loud is all. feel free to correct me.
Well done. The one thing that bugs me about HTC is that they make the hardware not the OS. It’s not like I'm opening the phone to change out chip sets. What I think we need is a well written stock letter that every member of XDA can e-mail by the masses to HTC and T-Mobile demanding them to release the open source code they use in there, so called “everything you” devices.
One person is noisy but a thousand or more is deafening.
what shocked is that this guys actually read and replied your messages. unbelievable, i would have thought they would send you one of those monotone messages like "thanks for contacting us, we appreciate your concern and we will get back to you type bologne "
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I do agree that I was also shocked that they were actually responding to my messages instead of some generic corportate bs. So I do give them Kudos for that.
Well done. The one thing that bugs me about HTC is that they make the hardware not the OS. It’s not like I'm opening the phone to change out chip sets. What I think we need is a well written stock letter that every member of XDA can e-mail by the masses to HTC and T-Mobile demanding them to release the open source code they use in there, so called “everything you” devices.
One person is noisy but a thousand or more is deafening.
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Click to collapse
This is kinda what I envisioned for this thread. You could share your experiences with HTC or Tmobile if you have already contacted them and If you haven't hopefully it would prompt you too. I would like them to come out in November and say that that 90% of device complaint calls / emails were from the G2. Unrealistic I know but I can dream.
... Why do people keep bringing up the GPL? AFAIK, Android isn't released under the GPL. It's Apache licensed.
And even for the GPL, there's never been a 'the -instant- you release a product, the source must be there' - it's a 'you have to make the source available' (again, this is GPL, -not- Apache, just pointing out). That can be in the form of punch cards delivered via mule, if they want.
The GPL has many vagueness issues like this (or at least, v2 did, v3 fixed some of it, but who uses v3?).
I'd say HTC's being fairly good about it, in that they release the source at all, given that the Apache license doesn't require it.
I doubt they are withholding it just because they have nothing better to do. If you've ever worked with a large company, I'm sure you're aware of how the easiest tasks can take weeks of paper work and general BS to get done...
While I agree they should have it out a bit quicker, I'm really getting annoyed at all the whining (not necessarily directed at this thread). Most of the complaints are valid, but I wish people would just relax.
Despite the rooting issues, the "hidden" memory, hinge not being as firm as people want, etc...I still am happy with the phone. There's some preinstalled junk, but nothing like practically every other phone on the market. The hardware is nice, and there's already an update despite how new the phone is.
Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk
Ditto
Jorsher said:
I doubt they are withholding it just because they have nothing better to do. If you've ever worked with a large company, I'm sure you're aware of how the easiest tasks can take weeks of paper work and general BS to get done...
While I agree they should have it out a bit quicker, I'm really getting annoyed at all the whining (not necessarily directed at this thread). Most of the complaints are valid, but I wish people would just relax.
Despite the rooting issues, the "hidden" memory, hinge not being as firm as people want, etc...I still am happy with the phone. There's some preinstalled junk, but nothing like practically every other phone on the market. The hardware is nice, and there's already an update despite how new the phone is.
Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk
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Second that!
shograt said:
... Why do people keep bringing up the GPL? AFAIK, Android isn't released under the GPL. It's Apache licensed.
And even for the GPL, there's never been a 'the -instant- you release a product, the source must be there' - it's a 'you have to make the source available' (again, this is GPL, -not- Apache, just pointing out). That can be in the form of punch cards delivered via mule, if they want.
The GPL has many vagueness issues like this (or at least, v2 did, v3 fixed some of it, but who uses v3?).
I'd say HTC's being fairly good about it, in that they release the source at all, given that the Apache license doesn't require it.
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Click to collapse
Your right about android being apache, that's why they can have closed source things like sense. HOWEVER the kernel is infact a moddified linux kernel, which in fact falls under GPLv2. According to the GPL violations angency has stated that they are infact in viaolation.
And simobile glad you started this thread, seems people were more concerned with my grammer the the problem at hand here...
Knock this **** off before HTC stops making quality phones for us because of little ****s like you. Sit back and wait, the phone's only been out a week. Quit ruining it for everyone else.
SuperDave81 said:
Knock this **** off before HTC stops making quality phones for us because of little ****s like you. Sit back and wait, the phone's only been out a week. Quit ruining it for everyone else.
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As someone who gives his hard earned money to HTC, how does he not have the right to ask them whatever he wants? If they don't respond, or blow him off, it'll turn a lot of us off HTC.
He isn't ruining anything other than your little bubble which I'm pretty sure no one else cares about.
One thing about their reply - they said the microSD card was max 16 gb. Whatever happened to the 32gb their other phones can read? Was this an error by customer services?
I know there is quite a few holes in the responses they gave me... 16gb vs 32gb, a bug that tmob and them are working on to fix missing memory? Quite odd indeed. Despite all those things I would urge everyone to send them a message and please post responses here. I'd like this to stay topical and not become a "oh I have a me too trolling comment in my head so let me reply" So please go to the link below and shoot them a message if you have a complaint about all this. The more people that do the better chance we won't have to sit back and wait 90-120 days for this source. It's super simple and they seem to respond pretty quick.
http://www.htc.com/www/about_htc_bymail.aspx
Man people are really butt hurt over everything not being perfect on launch day over this phone. Holy ****...
I mean come on guys. If your biggest problem is a lack of source code and part of the internal memory is supposedly missing then your life really isn't all that bad.
I'd like to think if the worst thing going on in my life is I'm mad at a cell phone then my life is at an all star level compared to most people.
Man people are really butt hurt over everything not being perfect on launch day over this phone. Holy ****...
I mean come on guys. If your biggest problem is a lack of source code and part of the internal memory is supposedly missing then your life really isn't all that bad.
I'd like to think if the worst thing going on in my life is I'm mad at a cell phone then my life is at an all star level compared to most people.
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Congratulations you win a bridge....You can live under it and charge people as they pass over. Jesus Christ your thoughts are so important go ahead and spill them.
Plus you might be interested in my new site
www.XDA-i<3-stockdevices.com
Since that's all the trolls seem interested in.
simobile said:
Congratulations you win a bridge....You can live under it and charge people as they pass over. Jesus Christ your thoughts are so important go ahead and spill them.
Plus you might be interested in my new site
www.XDA-i<3-stockdevices.com
Since that's all the trolls seem interested in.
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Ummm, wtf?
Funny how when a post doesn't adhere to the topic at hand it makes people go WTF? Now ask yourself did your post have anything to do with the topic of this thread? Or anything to do with the want to modify or dev a device?
SuperFly03 said:
Man people are really butt hurt over everything not being perfect on launch day over this phone. Holy ****...
I mean come on guys. If your biggest problem is a lack of source code and part of the internal memory is supposedly missing then your life really isn't all that bad.
I'd like to think if the worst thing going on in my life is I'm mad at a cell phone then my life is at an all star level compared to most people.
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Click to collapse
Uhm, I spend $500 on a new phone, and I can't even count on the stupid thing to stay running through the day? Yeah, I'd consider that something to be pissed about. I've owned many HTC devices over the years, and have bought most of them outright in the release week. NEVER have I had one with as many issues as the G2. I took it back today, and told them even if they fix all these issues (screen, memory, random reboots and lockups, and trackpad spazzing out) I doubt I'd pick another one up.
I've got a funny feeling, that some of these issues tie directly into the locking down of rooting on this phone as well... Whether it be technical, or they just wasted all their time locking it down rather than doing some basic Q&A, it's a pretty big issue.
So yeah, I don't advise you coming in here and telling people that it is no big deal that a device that costs as much as a new laptop doesn't work worth ****.
SuperFly03 said:
Ummm, wtf?
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haha, just saw this. WTF are you doing on XDA if you don't want to mod your device?
Who of you are going to be pissed when / if you find out that, as the hardware is encrypted, you'll won't be able to put any roms on it? Under UK law at least, you won't have any justification to take it back for a refund.
i wont be pissed i just want a good new phone if its unlocked all the better...
MarkusPO said:
Who of you are going to be pissed when / if you find out that, as the hardware is encrypted, you'll won't be able to put any roms on it? Under UK law at least, you won't have any justification to take it back for a refund.
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When I purchase a phone it is done purely on the following:-
1. What hardware and software is currently available.
2. How it works in it's native form.
3. Whether or not the manufacturer supports the device.
Okay, two out of three's not bad and good enough for me but having an ability to alter/tamper outside of it's base/core never comes into it's purchase.
I'm sure this is what most people will purchase the phone for.
It's a great phone, simple as that.
What? Is the HW encrypted? What did I miss?
I'm with Beards on this one. It's a great phone and that's why I've pre-ordered one.
How is it possible to not care about locked bootloader? But i guess it won't be locked?
Arrghh nearly pre-ordered mine,
What's this about HW encryption??
Is he joking or being serious, I can't find anything
Sent from my MB525 using XDA Premium App
I'm pretty sure he's saying if you find this out, will you be mad? He's not saying it is true.
Who cares...this baby will be cracked open like a nut...and theres always a way to get back to stock if needed...chill out...we are gods here at xda hahaha..
Sent from my GT-I9000 using XDA Premium App
from the horses mouth itself: http://galaxys2.samsungmobile.com/html/feature.html
MarkusPO said:
from the horses mouth itself: http://galaxys2.samsungmobile.com/html/feature.html
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Is it locked down?
On Device Encryption
The Samsung GALAXY S II is the first Android smartphone to adopt powerful encrypted hardware, minimizing the use of security software and applying encryption technology to the hardware itself, greatly accelerating security protection and achieving superior performance.
I can not see why Samsung would care, they are selling hardware not software, so a open sgs2 will sell more.
DKMIK said:
I can not see why Samsung would care, they are selling hardware not software, so a open sgs2 will sell more.
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I think wrong. i'm sure 75% of people buying it won't care. however if samsung can make a device that's locked down and secure and it catches on for this reason, it could tempt many large businesses to buy the s2 in hundreds if not thousands per company. that's going to add up to a lot of sales.
I don't know very much about ROM development etc. but couldn't it be that the encryption is totally transparent for accessing the ROM via "normal" software and only exists to protect the ROM against being built out and accessed manually?
this would be bs and i will be pissed.. it would probably mean no tweeking like deleting crap you dont need in system/app or replacing apps with tweeked version.. i may cancel my preorder
Sebring5 said:
Is it locked down?
On Device Encryption
The Samsung GALAXY S II is the first Android smartphone to adopt powerful encrypted hardware, minimizing the use of security software and applying encryption technology to the hardware itself, greatly accelerating security protection and achieving superior performance.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Encryption is something else than locking it down. Just wait ya'll...
Hardware encryption does not mean locked bootloader. Samsung has not yet commented about the bootloader locking status. I want to believe that it won't be locked because it is fighting against the whole idea of Android. If I want to do exactly what big brother says I will buy an iPhone.
If the bootloader is properly locked, we won't be able to open it even here in XDA. Motorola Atrix has a locked bootloader and you can go to the Atrix forum here and see yourself how many custom kernels there are. (None)
We all know the direction of Android is completely based on Google's whim, and it has become increasingly apparent that in order to stabilize and defragment their evergrowing and unwieldy ecosystem, they must set some standards and lock some things down. Google has already told phone manufacturers that future Android changes that the companies make must be approved by Google or they won't release early source code to devs who don't comply. They have realized they won't be able to compete with closed and stable systems like iOS, RIM, and WP7 with this "open" approach. What makes you think custom ROM from hacker A will get any blessings when the likes of Samsung or HTC will have to go through Google's scrutiny? I look forward to seeing more locked bootloaders.
It might be like that but as a customer I don't care about the "Being able to compete with iOS"-angle. If I can't modify my phone I am leaving it to shop. Maybe in the future the Google phones are the only ones without locked bootloaders.
Now that I think of it, the locked bootloader has nothing to do with the Android fragmentation. It only prevents developers to modify their phones. Phone manufacturers can still do their Touchwiz and Motoblur things. Maybe this locked bootloader thing has something to do with operators (especially in USA)?
In the UK, if you've preordered it online, there is an EU law on distance selling which covers internet purchases. This enables you to get a refund within 7 days. Whether you think it will be cracked after these 7 days will be up to you, but xda should provide an insight into how hard it will be to do upon release.
http://www.oft.gov.uk/about-the-oft/legal-powers/legal/distance-selling-regulations/
This was posted by p3droid on mydroidworld - many of us know him, or have at least heard of him. He knows what hes talking about, and this info is somewhat disturbing. This is just a copy/paste of his OP.
Bootloaders, Rooting, Manufacturers, and Carriers
Background
I don't believe that I need to introduce myself, but if I do my name is P3Droid. I am a phone enthusiast and have been working in the Android platform for 17 months. I have been very lucky in my short time on the Android platform. I think more than anything I have been lucky enough to be in the right places at the right times. The day I first saw and played with the Droid (OG) I thought “that is the ugliest damn phone I've ever played with”. Then I was asked back into the store by my friend (nameless) to get some time with the Android platform and he began to explain to me how open the phone was and how a “smart” person could do anything they wanted to the phone. That turned what I thought was an ugly phone into the sexiest beast ever. I guess that was approximately October of 2009, and I was excited about the possibilities and dove right in without checking the depth of the water.
I spent much of the year on an open phone and an open platform, and sometime in July I picked up a Droid X. I soon found a great bunch of friends and we formed Team Black Hat. Really wanting to break the bootloader, we spent more hours working on it than we did our 9 – 5 jobs. Eventually we came to the conclusion (with help from some unique resources), that we were not going to accomplish our objective. Every so often we still pluck away at it, but we have moved on to other things that will help people enjoy their Droid phones.
Fast forward to October 2010. I'm still in love with the concept of android, and I've done more than my share of developing, themeing, creating ROMS and even hacking. *Having been involved in so many things and having developed some unique contacts, I have been privy to information that is not disseminated to the masses. Some of this information I was asked to sit on. Some information I sat on because I felt it was best to do so for our entire community. You have probably seen me rant on occasion about what I thought the community was doing wrong and causing itself future pain. Each of those days I had received even more disheartening information. So where does this leave me? It leaves me with a difficult choice to make. What to tell, how much to tell, and do I want to give information out that could possible be slightly wrong. I've worked very hard to verify things through multiple sources, when possible, and some other information comes from sources so reliable that I take them at their word.
This brings me up to today. I've tossed and turned regarding how to say this, and how to express all of the information and my feelings in regards to this information. I guess the solution is to just let you all decide for yourselves what you think and what you want to do.
One Shoe Falls
Beginning in July, we (TBH), began hearing things about [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]Motorola[/FONT][/FONT] working on ways to make rooting the device more difficult. This was going to be done via [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]Google[/FONT][/FONT] through the kernel. No big deal we thought, the community always finds a way. When Froyo was released and there was no root for some time we became a bit concerned but soon there was a process and even 1-clicks. This was good news and bad news to me, because it simply meant that they would go back to the drawing board and improve upon what they had done.
During this time there were still little rumors here and there about security of devices, and other such things but nothing solid and concrete. Until November.
The Other Shoe Falls
Beginning in October, the information began coming in faster and it had more of a dire ring to it. It was also coming in from multiple sources. I began to rant a little at the state of our community, and that we were the cause of our own woes. So what did I hear?1. New devices would present challenges for the community that would most likely be insurmountable, and that Motorola specifically – would be impossible to hack the bootloader. Considering we never hacked the previous 3G phones, this was less than encouraging.
2.Locked bootloaders, and phones were not a Motorola-only issue, that the major manufacturers and carriers had agreed this was the best course of action.(see new [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]HTC [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]devices[/FONT][/FONT])
3. The driving forces for device lock down was theft of service by rooted users, the return of non-defective devices due to consumer fraud, and the use of non-approved firmware on the networks.I think I posted my first angry message and [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]tweet[/FONT][/FONT] about being a responsible community soon after getting this information. I knew the hand writing was on the wall, and we would not be able to stop what was coming, but maybe we could convince them we were not all thieves and cut throats.
Moving along, December marked a low point for me. The information started to firm up, and I was able to verify it through multiple channels. This information made the previous information look like a day in the park. So what was new?1. Multiple carriers were working collaboratively on a [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]program[/FONT][/FONT] that would be able to identify rooted users and create a database of their meids.
2. Manufacturers who supply Verizon were baking into the roms new security features:
a. one security feature would identify any phone using a tether program to circumvent paying for tethering services. (check your gingerbread DroidX/Droid2 people and try wireless tether)
b. a second security feature would allow the phone to identify itself to the network if rooted.
c. security item number 2 would be used to track, throttle, even possibly restrict full data usage of these rooted phones.The Rubber Meets the Road
So, I wish I had more time to have added this to the original post, but writing something like this takes a lot of time and effort to put all the information into context and provide some form of linear progression.
Lets get on with the story. March of this year was a monumental month for me. The information was unsettling and I felt as if we had a gigantic bulls-eye on our backs.
This is what I have heard:1. The way that they were able to track rooted users is based on pushing updates to phones, and then tracking which meid's did not take the update. There is more to it than this but that is the simple version.
2. More than one major carrier besides Verizon has implemented this program and that all carriers involved had begun tracking rooted phones. All carriers involved were more than pleased with the accuracy of the program.1. What I was not told is what the carriers intended to do with this information.3. In new builds the tracking would be built into the firmware and that if a person removed the tracking from the firmware then the phone would not be verified on the network (i.e. your phone could not make phone calls or access data).
4. Google is working with carriers and manufacturers to secure phones, and although Google is not working to end hacking, it is working to secure the kernel so that no future [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]applications[/FONT][/FONT] can maliciously use exploits to steal end-user information. But in order to gain this level of security this may mean limited chances to root the device. (This item I've been told but not yet able to verify through multiple sources – so take it for what you want)
5. Verizon has successfully used its new programs to throttle data on test devices in accordance with the guidelines of the program.
6. The push is to lock down the devices as tight as can be, but also offer un-lockable devices (Think Nexus S).The question I've asked is why? Why do all this; why go through so much trouble. The answer I get is a very logical one and one I understand even if I don't like it. It is about the money. With LTE arriving and the higher charges for data and tethering, carriers feel they must bottle up the ability of users to root their device and access this data, circumventing the expensive tethering charges.
What I would like to leave you with is that this is not an initiative unique to Verizon or Motorola, this is industry wide and encompassing many manufacturers.
So what does all this mean? You will need to make your own conjectures about what to think of all of this. But, I think that the rooting, hacking, and modding community - as we know it - is living on borrowed time.
In the final analysis of all this I guess I'll leave you with my feelings:
I will take what comes and turn it into a better brighter day, that is all I can do because I do not control the world.
Disclaimers:
I am intentionally not including any names of sources as they do not want to lose their jobs.
This information is being presented to you as I have received and verified it. *
I only deal with information pertaining to US carriers and have no specific knowledge concerning foreign carriers. "
**** the carriers. There will be a revolt. There are enough intelligent people in our community to stop this from happening. I went with the Android OS because Apple is a POS and RIM just doesn't offer what I need in a smart phone. The carriers can try doing what they want but there will be an ugly battle.
Despite this being extremely upsetting news, thanks for sharing it. I'm hoping for the best and not going down without a fight.
Just thought of a potential solution. We could have someone develop a program which accepts these apps and finds whatever sort of signature the carriers are checking for. It can keep it on our phone and ping back to the carriers when queried.
Just a rough idea. But I know there are people far more intelligent than me that can get this done. Or perhaps something more ingenious. I have faith. It will be a nuisance but if we support our strongest devs we will get through this until the carriers piss the **** off.
Isn't Google throwing out the baby with the bathwater here? If the main objective of the carriers is to prevent unauthorized tethering, isn't there a way to do that without blocking root access?
bongd said:
**** the carriers. There will be a revolt. There are enough intelligent people in our community to stop this from happening. I went with the Android OS because Apple is a POS and RIM just doesn't offer what I need in a smart phone. The carriers can try doing what they want but there will be an ugly battle.
Despite this being extremely upsetting news, thanks for sharing it. I'm hoping for the best and not going down without a fight.
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Click to collapse
This is my gut reaction as well. However...... Having spoken with a friend and engineer in the industry (I cannot say her name so take this quote with as much salt as needed) it was explained to me like this.
" Most cell carrier's infastructure are having a tough time dealing with the current customer load as it is. In fact, if you look at events where the influx of people can shut down networks such as AT&T ( the South by South West music fest in Austin TX for example) the cell carries are currently not too worried about losing, what they believe to be, a few customers.
Especially when you figure in the fact that you modding your phone and placing it on thier network is looked upon as you violating their contract. And as it was YOU who violated the contract in thier eyes, the cell carrier can continue charging you for your contract as well as making you purchase an "approved replacement handset"
I am not sure if this is truly the outlook of the carriers or simply the way one employee understands the situation to be......but it wouldnt surprise me if this was exactly how the dev community was viewed by them.
BUT, being around and playing with my phones for a few years now has taught me one thing. There are people on these forums with everybit the brains and know-how as the engineers the carriers employ. And given enough time EVERYTHING can be cracked.
bongd said:
**** the carriers. There will be a revolt. There are enough intelligent people in our community to stop this from happening. I went with the Android OS because Apple is a POS and RIM just doesn't offer what I need in a smart phone. The carriers can try doing what they want but there will be an ugly battle.
Despite this being extremely upsetting news, thanks for sharing it. I'm hoping for the best and not going down without a fight.
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Click to collapse
responses like this make me laugh. A revolt? What, more petitions, more rants on forums? This is a momentum shift that the end user can't do much about. There is pressure from a bunch of angles to start locking down certain aspects of android. If you read the whole post you'd notice the part about how a bunch of these security measures are being baked into android at the google level. This is not just verizon making demands of their phone makers.
and as intelligent as some devs are here, we're going to see their advances slowing way down. People are so hopeful that the devs will crack the bootloader (even though they've driven most of them away), yet they ignore the fact that the droidX has been locked down since release, and little to no progress has been made there. (i'm well aware they are slightly different, so don't bring it up). Even look what they did with the last update to the atrix, they blocked known root methods. No matter what the devs manage to do, teh makers have teams of people that just have to look at the exploits, and close them up.
i'm not saying i agree with the way things are going, i'm just trying to remain focused on the facts and be realistic.
cegna09 said:
responses like this make me laugh. A revolt? What, more petitions, more rants on forums? This is a momentum shift that the end user can't do much about. There is pressure from a bunch of angles to start locking down certain aspects of android. If you read the whole post you'd notice the part about how a bunch of these security measures are being baked into android at the google level. This is not just verizon making demands of their phone makers.
and as intelligent as some devs are here, we're going to see their advances slowing way down. People are so hopeful that the devs will crack the bootloader (even though they've driven most of them away), yet they ignore the fact that the droidX has been locked down since release, and little to no progress has been made there. (i'm well aware they are slightly different, so don't bring it up). Even look what they did with the last update to the atrix, they blocked known root methods. No matter what the devs manage to do, teh makers have teams of people that just have to look at the exploits, and close them up.
i'm not saying i agree with the way things are going, i'm just trying to remain focused on the facts and be realistic.
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I am being realistic. Nothing has been implemented yet, so how can we start brain storming? Nothing but ideas at this point, but it's a hard.
And by a revolt I don't mean one of those stupid petitions. We have people with varying specialties and occupations. Perhaps someone can find a legal clause that will help the battle, something in the ToS that would prevent the segregation of rooted versus non-rooted customers, etc.
Don't get all pissy on me about things. I'm not dreaming of anything outlandish. It's better than being a pessimist and taking it in the ass. Many people chose the Android platform for the freedom it provides. It enough customers are grossly outraged, it will NOT come to pass.
Look at Usage Based Billing. I work for one of the biggest ISPs in Canada and when we tried to introduce UBB we saw customers CHURN tremendously. We've received death threats for Christ sakes... and now ask me, cegna09, please ask if we've decided to go forward and bill customers under UBB?
In case that wasn't blatantly obvious and cynical enough, no, we haven't. It scared CEOs ****less and irritated the hell out of front line staff to the point where many of us feel no loyalty to the company anymore. It has shaken what little trust the consumers had in us and they've flocked for other providers. If Google wants to do this, they'd better be prepared for a ****storm of negative press. This is either fear mongering, exaggerations or a bad idea for Google and wireless carriers.
P.S. I type most of my posts at work so they're not always grammatically sound or eloquent. I don't give a **** though. Thanks for caring.
Okay tracking rooted users is new to me. but I thought the rest was normal procedure?
...Root exploit>carrier update (patches root)>new root exploit>new carrier update (patches new root)>newest root exploit...
How is the op any different than current procedure.? Is it just the addition of carriers tracking rooted users that makes this post notable? Because it seems like scaremongering to me. Should I really be that concerned? I already knew att doesn't like me to tether without a plan, and will do what it can to stop me. I dont have any more reason to believe att will stop service to my phone now than before I read this post.
Basically what started all this guys, was theft of services (free tethering) Everyone who has used the free tethering 'hacks' are largely responsible for this movement. Had everyone modded their phones responsibly, and not stolen services from the carriers because they thought they 'had that right' then this would probably not be happening to the extent that it is. I, for one, do not nor have i ever used a free tethering hack. I have unlimited data and use that freely on my phone. I use my pc for web browsing when i have a lot to do online. Below is a quote from a friend of mine on the Atrixforums.com site that is a very good view and quite accurate interpretation of whats happening.
das8nt said:
Yeah, I always knew something like this was going to come down the pipe... it was only a matter of time.
The third part, The Rubber Meets the Road, has been added. I've had some more time to think about this, and I've come to realize a few things. The following is my opinion on the whole subject. It might not be a very popular one, and posting it is not meant to start a large debate or anything, I just wanted to express my feeling on the matter. Please do not take offense to any of the points I'm trying to make; hopefully some of you know me well enough so far to know that I don't mean offense to anyone.
Opinion starts here...
They're right. The manufacturers, the carriers... they're right. We may not like it, but in the end they both have the full say in what happens. I'll give a few examples in a moment as to why I see it this way, but first I need to let you know where I'm coming from. I have a rooted phone; it's not my first rooted phone. I have tethered; though not often or very much at all, but I have tethered without a tethering plan on my account. I have installed ROMs, custom kernels, MODs, hacks... you name it, I've done it. I enjoy it if only because I can. Did I do it because it was needed? In some circumstances, I might argue, "yes;" in others, not in the slightest... it was just fun. The point to this being is that I have done most of everything that is being discussed in the Food For Thought post; and I've done it because I wanted to.
That brings me to a first example. You buy a car; a $20k car at that. Say you pay cash for it; it's yours. You don't even have to have full coverage insurance on it if you don't want to (some states.) You bought it as you daily driver, but you want to make some mods to it: aftermarket exhaust, lowering kit, cool-air intake.... and nitrous. You can do all of those things.; there's no one stopping you. What you can't do though, is maintain a factory warranty on your new car if you install those mods. When you alter the build of the car you are losing your right to claim that that car was manufactured improperly since it's no longer in the same state in which it was delivered to you. No big deal, right? Nothing ever goes wrong until the warranty expires anyway, we all know that. So, you take it to a drag track to see what it can do; how fast can it go? How quick can it hit the quarter mile line? You want to be know as the fastest, so you don't hold back... you kick in the nitrous.... but there's a problem. You didn't realize that the car was not meant to take that kind of load the way it was built. You blow your engine. Is the dealership or manufacturer going to warranty that engine? Would you really expect them to?
Second example. The same car you purchased, before you ever take it to the track, you want to drive it.... I mean really drive it; feel the true power and handling on the road. You take it out on the Interstate because that has the highest speed limits. You quickly get it up to to 70 mph, but that's not enough. You need more. You start to push it a little farther; no big deal... law enforcement doesn't usually care if you're only going a few mph over the limit, right? Well, you haven't been caught yet, so why not push it a little more? Before you know it you're at 95 mph and you see blue lights coming up quick behind you. Is that office going to let you off the hook because you own the car, have it modded and you feel you can do what you want with it? Would you expect them to?
Yes, we buy the phones. Yes, we own them. Yes, we can mod them how ever we can. What we can't do, though, is agree to a service contract and expect the provider of that contract to allow us to ignore their rules and exploit their services to the point that it costs them money. They are a business. They are not in the business for giving away free service, or replace products because the end user did not use them as intended; if they were they would not be in business very long. The carrier has the right to charge what they do, whether we like it or not. We, as users, have the right to find service elsewhere (most of us) or do with out. We agree to their terms when we allow them to provide us service. You do not have to sign a contract to agree to their terms; activating your phone on their network makes the agreement for you. Manufacturers have the right to lock their phones down, after all, they manufacture them. They are not in business to provide two or three phones for the price of one just because we broke the first couple trying to make them do things they were not intended to do. Again, if they were then they wouldn't be in business very long. If we do not like their practices we can buy from others.
I guess what it all boils down to in my mind is that if modding and hacking had been used the right way, we, the modding community and it's followers, might not have this situation coming down on us. If we did it just to customize our phones the way we want them, I'm sure they would have allowed that and worked with us. Since the opposite has been true for the most part, it surprises me in no way that this is about to happen. Users have been 'jailbreaking' and 'rooting' their phones for years, with a vast majority of them being used to circumvent the rules. So, the rules are about to change... like it or not.
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bongd said:
I am being realistic. Nothing has been implemented yet, so how can we start brain storming? Nothing but ideas at this point, but it's a hard.
And by a revolt I don't mean one of those stupid petitions. We have people with varying specialties and occupations. Perhaps someone can find a legal clause that will help the battle, something in the ToS that would prevent the segregation of rooted versus non-rooted customers, etc.
Don't get all pissy on me about things. I'm not dreaming of anything outlandish. It's better than being a pessimist and taking it in the ass. Many people chose the Android platform for the freedom it provides. It enough customers are grossly outraged, it will NOT come to pass.
Look at Usage Based Billing. I work for one of the biggest ISPs in Canada and when we tried to introduce UBB we saw customers CHURN tremendously. We've received death threats for Christ sakes... and now ask me, cegna09, please ask if we've decided to go forward and bill customers under UBB?
In case that wasn't blatantly obvious and cynical enough, no, we haven't. It scared CEOs ****less and irritated the hell out of front line staff to the point where many of us feel no loyalty to the company anymore. It has shaken what little trust the consumers had in us and they've flocked for other providers. If Google wants to do this, they'd better be prepared for a ****storm of negative press. This is either fear mongering, exaggerations or a bad idea for Google and wireless carriers.
P.S. I type most of my posts at work so they're not always grammatically sound or eloquent. I don't give a **** though. Thanks for caring.
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The world of mobile devices is a bit different though. I would wager a bet that 90% of users have no interest in rooting, modding, etc, or even a knowledge of what it is. They just don't care. So when 10%, or even if it's as high as 20%, of the user base shows dissatisfaction, i doubt it would sway them. In the mobile world you always have the choice to change platforms, carriers, etc. With ISPs (at least here in the US), you really have no choice over who you use for where you live.
And my point on the developers is just that's always easier to close exploits than to find them. And it looks like there is new modification to close exploits. I think it's going to start to turn into a 1 step forward 2 steps back game. I sincerely hope it doesn't go that way, but that's where i see it with the information presented.
The place you might have a chance of fighting is the recent ruling that made it legal to root/jailbreak phones. Though i bet AT&T and verizon's lawyers are hard at work finding ways around that.
Oh, and i never commented on your grammar.
cegna09 said:
The world of mobile devices is a bit different though. I would wager a bet that 90% of users have no interest in rooting, modding, etc, or even a knowledge of what it is. They just don't care. So when 10%, or even if it's as high as 20%, of the user base shows dissatisfaction, i doubt it would sway them. In the mobile world you always have the choice to change platforms, carriers, etc. With ISPs (at least here in the US), you really have no choice over who you use for where you live.
And my point on the developers is just that's always easier to close exploits than to find them. And it looks like there is new modification to close exploits. I think it's going to start to turn into a 1 step forward 2 steps back game. I sincerely hope it doesn't go that way, but that's where i see it with the information presented.
The place you might have a chance of fighting is the recent ruling that made it legal to root/jailbreak phones. Though i bet AT&T and verizon's lawyers are hard at work finding ways around that.
Oh, and i never commented on your grammar.
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I'm sure there are a slew of celebrity lawyers on speed dial, and I know that the Apple jailbreaking case will be strongly referenced if there is a class action lawsuit.
I also recognize and appreciate the circumstances regarding closing and finding exploits. It's always a game of cat and mouse. And it sucks having to find exploits and holes. Sometimes it's easy but sometimes it's extremely tough. I'm hoping it's not the latter.
In any event, I'm going to hold out. I know that there'll be a work around or at least a ton of backlash. You bring up a good point that it's a very small percentage of users who root. But that small percentage is virtually all made up of power users. While we're small in numbers, we're more intelligent than the tweenies who just get Androids for texting and Facebook.
I know that petitions and things like that normally don't get done (I never bothered with the bootloader petition for example) but I know that more constructive and intelligent users will chime in with glorious ideas to keep this **** at bay. I sincerely hope it was a late April fools day joke or something. I don't mind Google data mining and harvesting all my consumer logistics as long as they don't clamp down on my phone. Win win situation. I don't mind their parasitic or insidious intentions at all.
kdspiv said:
And given enough time EVERYTHING can be cracked.
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Except Motorola's bootloaders.
jgc121 -
The two parts of the car arguments are invalid. First, loss of warranty, is invalid due to the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (federal law) and states that a manufacturer cannot automatically invalidate a warranty because of what an end-user has done. There's a burden of proof. It's a consumer protection.
On your friend's second point, exceeding the speed limit is illegal. It is not in the same class as modifying a device. There is no law being broken. You might argue that unauthorized tethering is theft, which I'd need to hear the argument for - who has sustained damages? How can those damages be quantified?
I do, however, agree that this has been brought upon by the end-users who do naughty things (unauthorized tethering, malware creation, piracy).
RacecarBMW said:
Except Motorola's bootloaders.
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It only takes one disgruntled or sympathetic employee...Where are the social engineers?
Kueller said:
It only takes one disgruntled or sympathetic employee...Where are the social engineers?
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If only someone was willing to risk their job
phobos512 said:
jgc121 -
The two parts of the car arguments are invalid. First, loss of warranty, is invalid due to the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (federal law) and states that a manufacturer cannot automatically invalidate a warranty because of what an end-user has done. There's a burden of proof. It's a consumer protection.
On your friend's second point, exceeding the speed limit is illegal. It is not in the same class as modifying a device. There is no law being broken. You might argue that unauthorized tethering is theft, which I'd need to hear the argument for - who has sustained damages? How can those damages be quantified?
I do, however, agree that this has been brought upon by the end-users who do naughty things (unauthorized tethering, malware creation, piracy).
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If you read how the car arguments are compared - you will understand my friends point. And just by rooting your device, you void your warranty - just like if you add nitrous to your car - warranty gone.... its the same thing. It is the same as modifying these devices, running 'unauthorized firmware' IS technically a warranty voiding action.
Also - these are not MY opinions - just opinions and information from others that im passing along - dont shoot the messenger buddy And tethering without a plan - the way its setup on the network - is theft. It costs them money, and they dont like it.
ok i can sorta understand them wanting to stop free tethering, but why root in general, some people like adding custome roms, or tweaking themes to make their phone that THEY purchased look the way they want it to. I really don't use tether, but locking down root, that's just ridiculous...smh
No; that's exactly my point. Modifying something you own does NOT automatically void the warranty. Read the act; it isn't complicated. I've been modding vehicles for 10 years - I know the law.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty_Act
jgc121 said:
If you read how the car arguments are compared - you will understand my friends point. And just by rooting your device, you void your warranty - just like if you add nitrous to your car - warranty gone.... its the same thing. It is the same as modifying these devices, running 'unauthorized firmware' IS technically a warranty voiding action.
Also - these are not MY opinions - just opinions and information from others that im passing along - dont shoot the messenger buddy And tethering without a plan - the way its setup on the network - is theft. It costs them money, and they dont like it.
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Sent from my MB860 using XDA App
phobos512 said:
No; that's exactly my point. Modifying something you own does NOT automatically void the warranty. Read the act; it isn't complicated. I've been modding vehicles for 10 years - I know the law.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty_Act
Sent from my MB860 using XDA App
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I too have been modding vehicles for nearly 15 yrs now, I am an ASE certified technician with EPA certifications, and an Associates Degree in Business Management as well. (Feel free to pm me for proof) I am well aware of this act and the laws. You are missing the point of the previous posts.
A manufacturers warranty would never cover a blown engine due to N20 use.... it just wont. Its intended to cover the engine as it was from the factory. Any changes to the factory setup (within certain limits) are ok. Something like N20 - thats a deal breaker.
As i said before - the previous posts are not MY opinions.... just information i was passing along.
Not sure about that whole Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act..... didn't feel like reading up on it.... but in regards to the whole thing with AT&T and potentially other carriers shutting off all form of cell service to a person with a rooted/jailbroken phone by way of discovery with a special code in the software.... it won't happen unless they're using it in an illegal way (as in using a free tethering workaround, and abusing it to the point that it's easily distinguished that something fishy is going on).... plain and simple. As i mentioned in the other thread with the exact same article linked to in the Atrix forums (one of the other recent threads), the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) was ammended in July 2010, and one of those ammendments was that jailbreaking/rooting a mobile phone to install unauthorized or unapproved applications on the phone is legal.
So.... in regards to the earlier comment someone made laughing at the idea of a "revolt"..... if AT&T starts shutting off service to people who rooted/jailbroke their phone for the sole purpose of either installing a modified ROM or allowing further customisation of the OS than the non-rooted/jailbroke device will allow, then yes, there WOULD be a revolt. That revolt would take the form of... what i believe would fall under a class-action lawsuit. If they can't prove that the person who's service they cut off was using their rooted/jailbroken device in a way that was hindering their service.... which would mostly be the free tethering workarounds and some of those morons downloading quite a few gigabytes of data in a month..... then they would technically be breaking federal law by doing so.