Database Users

Universal, jasJAR memory does not match specs

The reported/quoted imate specs say 128MB flash ROM and 64MB SDRAM.
My device reports:
Storage Memory Total 43.72MB
Program Memory Total 47.93MB
With no applications other than the branded OS installed (33.05MB 'In use by both Storage and Programs) giving that leaves
Storage Memory Free 30.47MB
Program Memory Free 28.14MB
Where is the missing 158MB of memory? How can I access the missing memory?
Also, what happens if I install applications to the SD card. Do they still work?

Yes, they would still work if you instlal programms on storage card.
This is strange, as I think there should be more storage memory than you have right now. About 17 Megs of your memory is also being used by useless cab files which were there for the first time install.. There are ways and means to reformat the drive and actually gain all this space (Extended_Rom) but it involves some advanced tricks in doing this. Nevertheless The rom should more storage not just 40 Megs (?) can someone else confirm this is the available ROM on the JasJar?

I can't add up
My earlier post should not say missing 158MB of memory, cause if you add up my figures there is just 100MB missing. Had a long day messing around with my new device, and as I say my maths ain't that hot anyway.
Thanks for the advice on installing apps to the storage card.

Same here 43.72MB Storage memory and 47.93MB Program memory.
Not happy.

memory
Expansys website states the following specs:
Memory
• Flash ROM: 128 MB
• RAM: 64 MB SDRAM
can be found here:
http://www.expansys.com.au/product.asp?code=119353
If it doesnt match, I would be sending it back, or sueing for false advertising.

What the hell is going on here, $1650 for this device and it has less memory than a Jam and lieing on the website. mmmmmmmm, I would be mad, real mad, someone should die for this, this is worse than the new Telstra boss.

memory
yeah i already ordered mine and am waiting on it to see. i know the way it interprets and runs is different to previous versions, ie my understanding is a hard reset retains its data, so it means it installs directly to ROM and stays there.
From that I can only summise that you can install a maximum of 128 meg of operating system and software direct to ROM, but can only run a maximum of 64 meg into RAM at any point in time, including the operating system, data, and applications.
Then you only use the RAM when you launch the applications, but this would also require the ppc to use some of it, which would appear to be about 20 meg from the previous stats, leaving a max of 40 meg to actually be running at any point in time.
Anyway, wait and see, hopefully should only be about a week as we are on the otherside of the world from where most people are getting them from.
Eitherway, it appears to the best state of the art phone currently available, so we'll just have to see.
Anybody that has already got one, how long does the battery last when running the WIFI? I know my XDAII with a Netgear CF can be drained in a little over 1 hour including the backpacks battery and the main battery.

ROM and RAM size fine
On my JASJAR bought in Dubai yesterday the Device Information says:
RAM Size:64Mb
Flash Size: 128MB
The way Windows Mobile 5.0 manages memory is differnet to Windows Mobile as all the memory is persistent. So you don't lose your data when the device powers off.
But it uses the RAM and ROM more like a PC. The Memory Settings area shows the Storage and Program memories.
The 128Mb of ROM is used for storing the Operating System and for storing user data! The OS takes up about 84.5Mb, leaving on my device 43.5Mb for Storage.
The 64Mb RAM is RAM for running programs. The OS takes about 16Mb at runtime leaving the 47.93Mb Program memory for me to run my programs.

Re: ROM and RAM size fine
vpreHoose said:
On my JASJAR bought in Dubai yesterday the Device Information says:
RAM Size:64Mb
Flash Size: 128MB
The way Windows Mobile 5.0 manages memory is differnet to Windows Mobile as all the memory is persistent. So you don't lose your data when the device powers off.
But it uses the RAM and ROM more like a PC. The Memory Settings area shows the Storage and Program memories.
The 128Mb of ROM is used for storing the Operating System and for storing user data! The OS takes up about 84.5Mb, leaving on my device 43.5Mb for Storage.
The 64Mb RAM is RAM for running programs. The OS takes about 16Mb at runtime leaving the 47.93Mb Program memory for me to run my programs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
how much price did u pay for imate jasjar in Dubai.
thx

I am dissapointed. My PDA2K has all my major apps installed and still has 18MB free.
The jasJAR with just tomtom5 installed has only 20MB free.

The OS takes up about 84.5Mb
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Huh? when i loaded 2005 on my BA, the OS was 32mb???

Memory Allocation

I have a question which puzzles me - perhaps the knowledgeable amongst us can answer it for me.
I have 2 devices, an Orange SPV M2000 (Blue Angel) and an O2 MDA Mini S (Wizard).
When I look at the device info I see this
........................................BA......................Wizard
RAM Size.........................128MB....................64MB
Flash Size..........................32MB....................128MB
Storage Size..................43.26MB.................47.46MB
When I look at the Memory Screen, the BA has 125.77MB main memory showing 62.88MB allocated to Storage and 62.89MB allocated to Program and a slider to alter the split of memory.
When I look at the Memory on the Wizard there is no slider and it shows 44.76MB allocated to Storage and 44.01MB allocated to Program.
Whichever way I look at it I cannot seem to make sense of the figures.
Can someone explain (in simple terms) what these figures mean and why there is such a dramatic difference between the RAM and Flash sizes on these two devices?

First the major difference between Blue Angel and Wizard. Blue Angel stores everything - your programs, data, etc. in RAM. It uses this same RAM for program memory. That's why you get a slider. It's also why, if your battery runs out or your reset it, you lost all your stuff. The Wizard, on the other hand, has memory dedicated for data/settings storage that's like flash memory (so you won't lose your stuff), and different memory for the RAM.
depending on the ROM/ExtRom/Radio Stack, etc. installed there's...
128MB total ROM
of which
44MB is available for storage of applications/user files
the rest is the operating system, extrom, etc.
and
64MB total RAM
of which
49MB is available for running programs/memory
the rest of which is the PIM running in the background, the phone running in the background, the radio stack running in the background, etc. All stuff that either the OEM or Microsoft decided you wouldn't want not running.

Thanks 'Z'.
Now it all makes more sense.

Sorry to resurrect a somewhat buried thread, but I was doing my research before posting by using the search function -- not bad for a newbie, eh? -- and ran across this thread which directly addresses some questions I've been dealing with, but I'd like to throw some stuff out to see if I understand completely.
As I understand it, the Wizard has 64MB of SDRAM, and 128MB of Flash storage memory, correct? On the developer.cingular.com it says 64MB Flash ROM and 128MB SDRAM which appears to be backwards.
On the device Memory manager after a hard reset and installing the Qtek 9100 customization .cab Storage shows Free 43.75 of 47.46MB and Program shows Free 27.18 of 44.01MB.
As I understand it, "Storage" is refering to the Flash non-volatile memory, and "Program" is referring to RAM, correct?
So this means that of the 128MB of flash memory, ~80MB is hidden, including the customization .cab. Of the 64MB of flash memory, more than half is taken up by OS, radio and other things.
Do I have that right?
Now, one more thing. If I drag a 5MB file onto the device, the storage in use increases 5MB but Program isn't affected. This makes perfect sense.
Syncing, however is a different story. A small test sync of email, contacts, and calendar uses 2.68 Storage memory but 3.7MB of Program memory.
I take it from this that when you sync, it writes the pim info to the flash memory but then also automatically expands it into system memory. Do I understand that correctly?
If I am correct, is there any registry hack or anything that can change this behavior? Would it really slow things down so much if your PIM info had to be taken out of Storage memory? Or am I missing something?
Thanks for any responses.
Gene

I hope no one minds that I bump this, it's been several days.
I'm fairly sure my basic understanding of the situation is correct: contacts etc are loaded into persistent memory (ROM) then loaded into system RAM as well -- I speculate to speed searches and such because RAM is so much faster than Flash memory.
However this has a drawback in that whereas a 64MB RAM-only ppc 2003 device was able to handle >5,000 contacts with ease, on the Wizard it takes almost all of the RAM.
I know it's possible to reduce the amount of RAM (and ROM for that matter) being used by other applications but I'm wondering if anyone has explored or figured out a way to keep the PIM info in ROM (registry hack, perhaps) until it's actually needed, and what the repercussions if any were, ie did it make using the pim info unbearably slow?

I have a question here. Why doesn't HTC put more flash ROM storage (maybe 1GB of flash ROM) into its mobile phone? Then we don't need external SD memory card.

I have a question here. Why doesn't HTC put more flash ROM storage (maybe 1GB of flash ROM) into its mobile phone? Then we don't need external SD memory card.

I'm sure they'll be increasing that in upcoming models. Only reason not to, typically, is to keep cost down a bit - and let the user add as much storage memory as they want; this is under the assumption that anything put on the storage card will work just fine, which is not the case with many applications :|

Simple questions on memory allocation

It took me a while to realize I'm confused, but it seems I'm confused about Hermes/WM5 memory allocation.
I've been using PocketPC's since PPC2000, there (and in PPC2002, PPC2003) the o/s resides in flash, and RAM is partitioned between storage and program memory. Thus, loading lots of applications to the device reduces the amount of program memory available for actually running programs. Those o/s had a slider to influence the balance of memory allocated.
Since I got my 8525 I've been assuming that it worked the same way, despite the loss of the memory slider. There have always been indications that I was wrong though - I never saw the memory balance shift, and nothing I've done seems to increase the program memory. Even removing several applications from Storage and installing them in Extended ROM didn't help. I'd LIKE to free up more program memory so apps like Mapopolis can use a LOT of it....
My Start->Settings->System->Memory page shows 56.22MB (Total) for Storage and 49.08MB (Total) for Program. When reading about the Samsung "stacked" (aka MCM) processor I realized that none of the variants listed had more than 64MB SDRAM, and 56.22+49.08 > 64!!!
It seems like either "Storage" now equals flash memory (vs volatile RAM in PPC2003 et al.) and/or there's more the 64MB of SDRAM in the Hermes or something. If all 64MB were available I'd expect more Program memory than 49MB....
I'm confused - Can someone explain or point me to an explanation of how the Hermes/WM5 allocates that SDRAM?
TIA,
Richard

Hermes has Samsung KD5657ACA-D090 chip provides 128Mb NAND Flash + 64Mb Mobile SDRAM. See here:
http://wiki.xda-developers.com/index.php?pagename=Hermes_HardwareOverview

pof said:
Hermes has Samsung KD5657ACA-D090 chip provides 128Mb NAND Flash + 64Mb Mobile SDRAM.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks pof! That's the one I thought it was - but I'm even more confused about the allocation of the 64MB now. If all of it goes to Program, how come I only get 49MB? If it gets split, how come Storage + Program is more than 64MB?
Ugh, I'm confused
Richard

rsolomon said:
Thanks pof! That's the one I thought it was - but I'm even more confused about the allocation of the 64MB now. If all of it goes to Program, how come I only get 49MB? If it gets split, how come Storage + Program is more than 64MB?
Ugh, I'm confused
Richard
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
These sometimes confuses people...
But, the stated "Storage: 56.96" is the 128MB part, in that resides the whole OS, ExtROM etc. So in the end there is only 56.96 available for the system to use, plus the other installed programs that cuts it down to about 30MB free after a clean boot (that's just the way it is thanks to our lovely microsoft programmers <3)
The thing is that when you boot your device, the machine loads the whole OS to the running program memory and allocates some of it to important system files, that's why there is 48.80 total and then there is the rest running programs that take space, and about 30MB is free after clean boot on my device.
That's the way it has been programmed, mobile device programming is alot frustrating than on desktop PCs, so the memory handling is very important.
And don't mix those two when you said "56.22+49.08 > 64!!!", they are two separate memoryes. (56.xx being the 128 part and 49.xx being the 64 part).
Don't ask why microsoft excluded the memory allocation slider, maybe the older devices and OSs were differently programmed (memory handling).

gvoima said:
But, the stated "Storage: 56.96" is the 128MB part, in that resides the whole OS, ExtROM etc. So in the end there is only 56.96 available for the system to use, plus the other installed programs that cuts it down to about 30MB free after a clean boot (that's just the way it is thanks to our lovely microsoft programmers <3)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That much is logical - not all 128MB of the flash is allocated to the file system mounted as "Storage" - clearly some is for Bootloader, Radio, etc.
Are you really saying the OS and user-writable storage share a filesystem? That seems counter-intuitive to me, though presumably there are user-inaccessible flags to prevent over-writing system files. In PPC2003 there was a ROM file system and a RAM filesystem overlaid so they appeared together. You seem to be saying that in WM5 the user filesystem lives in a portion of the flash - unlike a portion of RAM as it did in PPC2000-2003.
gvoima said:
The thing is that when you boot your device, the machine loads the whole OS to the running program memory and allocates some of it to important system files, that's why there is 48.80 total
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So you're saying WM5 hides ~16MB worth of RAM usage? Did PPC2003 execute O/S files in place then? I mean I can see that the o/s and running programs would take up space, but it's unclear to me why WM5 would report total memory lower than 64MB in that case.
TIA,
Richard

See also this thread:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=278903

Got it
pof said:
See also this thread:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=278903
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, that's got it - the MSDN blog links (that Lurker0 linked http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=1027392) at least squared me away. Lemme see if I can summarize my own questions:
0) Prior to WM5 most of the OS *was* eXecute In Place (XIP) - certainly on the devices I owned. Now most devices do not support XIP for most of the O/S so more RAM is used in general to compensate.
1) Prior to WM5, PocketPC "Storage" *was* in RAM (for user data), with WM5 it's ALL in flash. Thus there's no sense installing to ExtendedROM vs Storage, because you still can't free up any RAM
2) WM5 *does* hide ~15MB of RAM usage - because they want to. So "Program" really is RAM and it's just stupid that reported Total doesn't match physical Total.
I was tainted by my previous PPC exposure I guess. Half the RAM means that Mapopolis for instance will then always be slower on my WM5 device than on my PPC2003 device - half the SDRAM clock speed doesn't help here either (iPAQ 5555 vs Hermes)
Thanks all!
Richard

1. There are still reasons to use Extended ROM instead of the Storage. The Storage is required for many tasks by the OS, it is wise to keep at least some megs of it free. But, as you can read around, not everything is recomennded for installing on a flash card. Here the External ROM can be in help, adding the storage that is always accessible by OS, and is not used by other means.
2. You may call it "hide" but WM5 actually uses it. Well, the way it uses such an amount of RAM makes it hidden from the tools that calculate total available RAM. But that paging pool is a wise solution. For instance, Symbian OS 9.1 phones (S60 3rd edition, UIQ3.0) use RAM uniformly, and, as such, the same 64MB is just not enough for all (OS, built-in apps, user installed apps). WM5, employing the virtual memory, uses RAM a smarter way.

Lurker0 said:
2. You may call it "hide" but WM5 actually uses it. Well, the way it uses such an amount of RAM makes it hidden from the tools that calculate total available RAM. But that paging pool is a wise solution. For instance, Symbian OS 9.1 phones (S60 3rd edition, UIQ3.0) use RAM uniformly, and, as such, the same 64MB is just not enough for all (OS, built-in apps, user installed apps). WM5, employing the virtual memory, uses RAM a smarter way.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agreed - by "hide" I simply meant not reporting it. I'd be fine with MS showing 64MB total with 14MB used - I just got thrown by showing 50MB "Total". I grok their rationale for that reporting choice, I just don't agree
As I alluded above, I have a specific target app which performed well on a PPC2003 system with 128MB of RAM and which is performing much slower on a WM5 system with 64MB RAM. Reducing the app's dataset (maps in this case) brings performance back in line, so I believe I have a memory issue. I'm running an older version of the app due to a bug which is still outstanding against the WM5-certified versions, so I'm likely not getting any help the app COULD be giving the OS. Bummer for me
On the plus side, I've learned a bunch about WM5 memory usage which I didn't know yesterday....
Thanks!
Richard

2 Hardware related questions

hi guys!
i just received my HD2 and i already have 2 questions:
1. isn't supposed Hd2 to have a microUSB conector? it looks thiner and wider then connector i had for my old HD. i didn't have guts to stick the old cable in to check if it works. can somebody confirm the compatibility?
2. what the h**l is that 200Mb (more or less) storage memory? on my old hd i never had the memory problem? HD2 isn't supposed to have 512Mb RAM? isn't all available for instaling things omto them? i am totaly confused
thanks a bunch for enlightning!

mini usb - micro usb..... two different things.
512 ram is for programs and the system to use to run things, like ram on your pc, 200 rom is where programs get installed to, liked the hard disk on your pc. don't forget you can instal to your sd card too.

samsamuel said:
mini usb - micro usb..... two different things.
512 ram is for programs and the system to use to run things, like ram on your pc, 200 rom is where programs get installed to, liked the hard disk on your pc. don't forget you can instal to your sd card too.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thanks for answers
mini vs micro = ok
the other one is not ok. i am not refering to RAM but to ROM memory. my bad!
so, again - ROM memory should be 448Mb (or 576MB on some custom ROMs)
how come is not all available?
i said before, on my old HD i never had a memory problem and it took me by surprise

incorrect, there is 448(576 with the right cooked rom and radio) ram not rom.
there IS 512 rom on the device,yes, and windows plus the other pre installed stuff takes around 250 meg leaving around 200 for user stuff.

noris08 said:
ROM memory should be 448Mb (or 576MB on some custom ROMs)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, RAM is 448 or 512. ROM is always 512MB. But, about 200-300 of those are used to store the system components (OS).

you guys are right. i am too new with hd2
however, the question is valid - how come is not enough?
i used cooked 6.5.x roms and same apps in my hd with no memory issue

I must say I don't have a problem. small apps get installed to main memory, anything large like sat nav software I instal to memory card. most apps are very small, not much more than 1 or 2 meg, difficult to fill all 200 meg.

Who said it's not enough?
I have around 70MB free now with quite a few apps, no problem so far. But yes we need to think about putting big programs on the storage card indeed (games can be 10-40MB each, typical "big" apps 1-5MB), so yes with a few you can easily fill the internal memory.
But it's also like always, people always want / "need" more even if it's useless... mostly about RAM in this case and the sooo popular 448->512MB fix. With 448MB, you have about 185MB free RAM upon boot. On my previous WM device, I had 80MB free on boot... and never came even close to filling that even with more running programs you'd want to have. So with 100MB more, I'd want to see someone who actually *needs* the extra 64MB...

Its actually an extra 128 meg, not 64, 448meg standard (with 128 set aside for graphics = 320 useable) and after the tweak its 576 with 128 set aside for graphics = 448 useable.

Indeed... seems I can't use a calculator at 1am anymore

Storage memory on HD2

I started getting warnings on low "Storage Space" on my HD2. This is weired, since I keep my documents and apps on SD. I only installed few very small apps after flashing Energy ROM onto HD2.
I have checked memory allocation and it seams total memory is allocated towards Program and Storage (as in attached picture). I can see that free "Storage Memory" is rather low, but I am not sure on :
1.What is using it. When looking into File explorer, you can't see if the file is using Storage memory or Program memory. I even clicked on "Find large file using storage memory". It found many files, but all of them where on SD... so it should not cause the problem I have.
2. How to reallocate some memory allocated to "Program" into "Storage".
I have Android running from my SD, but I expect this should be only using memory on SD, right?

... and yes, it is very annoying, since it reminds about short memory every time I turn my phone on...

Same problem. 3 days I have HD2, I install Radio Leo 2.15.50.14 and Energy.Leo.29007.Sense2.5.Cookie.2.0.Dec.27 (576MB RAM) and I have:
Storage size (Total storage): 200,27 MB (Used 65,30)
Total program: 449,22 MB (Used 170,33 MB)
But after installing few apps I had only 20MB free space, but more 200MB free program RAM. But for program is enough about 50-80 free RAM, 200 MB is unnecessary...
On my Xperia X1 with 826x ROM i have Total storage 295 MB and Program 191,25 MB and it´s fine.
I´m trying some else ROMs, but not with better parameters.
Here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSsCdwY9ngM I can see 290MB Total storage, but which ROM is it??? Or is possible somehow transferred memory from Program (RAM) to Total storage?

The problem may be with hidden caches, as in temp. internet files.

I´ve tested about 20 ROMs, and I found 3 good ROMs with large internal storage.
Best looks me Chucks ROMs http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=618787
- Lite Chucky version (but lite for Chuck - has many program and utils) has 310MB Free
- Tabtastic has 251 free
both are in GTX (white) skin, but he has there links for some old ROMs, where are some dark ROMs
And 256MB free has http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=684646
But I only flash these ROMs, testing will come, but looks without bugs (I hope). ;-)

storage
mine using standard rom 3.14 supplied by htc.
just do some tweaks as suggested
application installed
garmin
tcpmp
opera 10
freda
task bar colour
google map
chteditor
cht
cleam ram
rar pocket
phm registry
cleartemp
nodata
wifi no standby
incall rec.
disable vsync sense
used storage 37mb
so far no bug at all. smooth n clean.
i noticed in window folder there is opera9 consumed 7.8mb.
how to delete this file?

fred_up said:
The problem may be with hidden caches, as in temp. internet files.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
not that I have used phone browsing a lot, but I could give it a try to clear those hidden caches. Any idea how?

TwinCZ said:
Same problem. 3 days I have HD2, I install Radio Leo 2.15.50.14 and Energy.Leo.29007.Sense2.5.Cookie.2.0.Dec.27 (576MB RAM) and I have:
Storage size (Total storage): 200,27 MB (Used 65,30)
Total program: 449,22 MB (Used 170,33 MB)
But after installing few apps I had only 20MB free space, but more 200MB free program RAM. But for program is enough about 50-80 free RAM, 200 MB is unnecessary...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think the key questions are:
1. How to find out what files are using that Storage Memory. If I see that, I might figure out what I can delete.
2. How to reallocate memory from Program Memory to Storage Memory

ajocius said:
I think the key questions are:
1. How to find out what files are using that Storage Memory. If I see that, I might figure out what I can delete.
2. How to reallocate memory from Program Memory to Storage Memory
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Of course, you´re right, but:
1) too much work with unclear results
2) I didn´t find this answer (I think there is no way to reallocate memory outside ROM cooking)
So for me is simpler test ROMs and find the best, and the 3 ROMs above look usably...

I can't believe that cook like Energy, whos ROM's are used by most users would leave only memory for 2 new apps to be installed after fresh ROM... There is something either wrong in my understanding, or just needs some simple entry in registry or similar.
Common people

ajocius said:
I can't believe that cook like Energy, whos ROM's are used by most users would leave only memory for 2 new apps to be installed after fresh ROM... There is something either wrong in my understanding, or just needs some simple entry in registry or similar.
Common people
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not for 2 new apps, after flashing you have 130MB free, but after 5-7 apps and some ringtones I had 20MB. I have X1 with more 15 apps and same ringtones and I have 70MB free, thats enough, and same I want from my HD2. And I don´t understand, why Energy has after flash 200MB total and 66MB used, and Chucky´s ROM has 250-310MB total and 18-28 used. And same ore more apps and utils inside...

Have removed all apps via "manage applications" still low storage memory.... I will need new ROM as it looks... I have Energy ROM on my Pro2 device, and there I have 178 MB free storage memory. Go figure...

Energy ROMs I used all time on my Xperia X1 and there were wery good with enough free storage for me, so with these good experience first ROM which I install to my new HD2 was Energy too, but after I found the problem with low storage... So maybe the problem with storage is only for HD2, if you have on TP2 180MB free, this looks enough. ;-)
Now I have in HD2 ChuckyDexterDarkOne and I have 283MB Total, 172 Used (after install every apps and files which I want in Internal storage - after HR was used about 20MB only with a lot of apps and tools inside the ROM) and 111 free... ;-) NICE ;-)